What do most of you use to back-up your PS photos and then transfer them from the office computer to your home computer and back again? Is the Iomega Rev worth the money?
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CDs would work fine. If you do this kind of thing regularly, you will find that unless the CDs are multi-session, you may have a "management" issues. Which CD is the latest one? That depends on how many times you have to do this. There may be an issue with those that are more cost conscious than others too – burning a new CD every day. <shrug>
Also, in MY particualr case, a CD wouldn’t fit the images I have to port, but I suspect that I’m pretty unusual in that regard.
Since I started shooting RAW format I found that CDRs were filling up too quickly, so I switched to a DVD burner, a Lite-on 812S. Terrific burner. 8X DVD-R and +R, and 4X DVD + and – RW. I’m not that interested in long-term archival stability, I back up more to save myself from self-induced blunders (and there have been plenty of those).
How about a compact flash card(s)? Naturally, a good brand name card. Other wise, CDRW’s which are fairly reliable, or CDR which is generally thought to be more reliable. Or a USB 2 hard drive, if you require that much room for files.
I still contend that there isn’t a suitable reliable backup system. Tapes were about as good as it got since you could have incremental and differentials and manage that. But tape is so antiquated – I have a hard time justifying it.
For just backing up images I burn; but even then, you want to go DVD for the capacity but those standards haven’t settled yet to a point where you want to count on it like a HD. A nice external HD is great, but as soon as you fill it, you need another; then you want to back THAT up.
I keep hoping some technology will come along that we can count on… but I rant a bit too much.
my biggest concern is my images. since i’ve gone digital i have shot maybe 5 rolls of film. ALL my pix of my kids from age 3 on are digital. It’s making me nervous!!! All I can think so far is to backup to multiple locations on physically seperate drives and cds. Now we’re hearing that cd’s that are going through accelerated aging processes aren’t lasting NEARLY as long as they once though and that some cheaper discs are failing with in only a couple of years! YIKES! I either need to start printing more or find a more reliable way to back up! I’m thinking removeable hard drives (USB or firewire) might be the best way to date.
. Now we’re hearing that cd’s that are going through accelerated aging processes aren’t lasting NEARLY as long as they once though and that some cheaper discs are failing with in only a couple of years!
Trust me on this one. Buy Mitsui brand CDs. I go through THOUSANDS, I’ve research it and frankly, there IS no better brand. They have a Mitsui gold, that is supposed to be longer lasting, but I use the Silvers. You buy 100 for about 50 or 60 bux from a wholesaler. My price is cheaper, but I know you can get them for that price.
Mitsui has been changed to MAM-A (Mitsui Advanced Media). There are two notable things about them for the average person: first, they use Pthalocyanine dye, which they patented. Second, they put what they call a "diamond coat" on the label surface to resist scratching. This latter point is important if you buy unbranded CDs and intend to put a label on them, and it’s also true for their white label CDs that are intended for thermal/inkjet printing.
If you go to their website, they have a lot of information on how they’re produced and the care that goes into them. I have worked with their tech support and customer service in the past.
Point is, they make great media that is consistent from lot to lot and you can rely on them.
Other companies know that CDs are becoming a commodity so they have other companies make CDs for them extremely cheaply, don’t care about QC (what’s the big deal over a 25 cent CD?), and then they brand them for higher gross margin.
If you decide to go CDs, MAM/Mitsui is the way to go.
Thanks to all of you! After reading all of your responses, I think I’ll be getting an external hard drive with a USB 2.0 for my PC. Something like a Maxtor OneTouch (PC World’s "Best Buy") or a Sony Giga Vault (80GB) that is small enough to put in your pocket. (I may have forgotten to say that I need portable unit to carry from my office computer to my home computer to sync files.) Yeah, I know that the smaller Sony hard drive is very expensive ($336 at CDW-G), but that’s what I’ll pay for something that is small and lightweight (9.5 oz.) versus the Maxtor weighing in at 3.1 lbs. at $196 for a 160 GB. Any thoughts on this?
dave, good deal. cdw’s a good name. also check buy.com, amazon.com and tigerdirect.com before you buy. sometimes it pays to shop around! (i know that buy.com has a competitive thing where they’ll beat certain vendor’s prices. not sure if cdw is on the list, but they might be. check for that too!)
I have the Maxtor 250 GB– it’s not bad carrying it around. Kinda like a school book. My only complaint is that sometimes ‘safely remove hardware’ tells me it can’t stop it. Then I turn-off the computer to remove it. Friends tell me ‘just unplug it’ but considering what’s on it I haven’t had the nerve to try.
Personally, I like Maxtor. They’ve got a reputation to uphold in the hard drive arena. I apologize to all Sony owners in advance, but I never liked the idea of Sony computers or peripherals, except for entertainment. That is to say, I would buy a Sony MP3 player, but not a Sony hard drive.
Prejudice? Perhaps, but I saw SyQuest bite the dust and I know how tough that business is – with that in mind, I want a manufacturer who is world class at their niche, and IMO, WD, Maxtor, and the other drive Mfr’s are there, Sony’s not.
USB 2. Unless its my imagination my friend’s firewire seems to read slower and write faster. Overall speed not noticebly different than my ultra scsi’s on files up to 100MB. On 300MB up to 1Gig files its a dog but still usable.
I do a lot of work on my "Laptop" (I think desktop replacement is a more appropriate name!) and thought I was doomed to live with USB 1, since you can’t stick extra boards in a laptop. Lo and behold! You can now get a PCMCIA card with two USB 2 ports. Also Firewire is available but I already have that.
Maxtor here I come! Or maybe LaCie, they look sexier 🙂
I use a LaCie 300 Gb external hard drive. I have a shareware program called Second Copy (available at www. centered.com), which backs up whatever you ask it to, automatically, on all sorts of schedules. I have it set to load at Windows startup, and I have a Profile (a batch file/macro) which copies any changed files in my Pictures folder/subfolders to the LaCie disk every hour. I don’t have to do anything, I don’t have to remember to back up. It’s done for me. Bliss.
I also back up onto my laptop and onto DVDs, but that takes time and remembering. But it’s worth it. I once had a hard drive and a tape drive fail, coincidentally, on the same day. The tape drive was so old that I couldn’t get a replacement, and had to pay the earth to get the data on the tapes recovered professionally. As far as I’m concerned, the more backups the better.
Just a note. Over the years, I’ve been through many hard drives on my computers, family computers, friends computers, etc. Ive only seen one WD fail for no apparent reason. Saw two fail because the owners were just MEAN to the machines. One was very funny though…excuse me while I laugh a bit.
OK, Im back. At any rate, have seen MANY Quantum drives fail because they felt like it. If I’m not mistaken, Maxtor bought Quantum. I happened by the service desk on the way into a CompUSA and the customer was going off about buying a Maxtor drive and when he opened the box, it had a Quantum drive in it. I listened in (but not in a rude way) as the service person said he was instructed to say that the drive was the same size, and the warranty was just as good as the Maxtor shown on the box. He could replace it or give a refund. The man took the refund saying he had no idea what the next box would contain, and didnt want to get stuck with another Quantum drive.
I say that to say this. For those people thinking another drive is a good backup solution, they may be right. As long as its a reliable drive.
I use a third drive to backup my system even though CS requires repeated re-activations. That works for me. For data backups though, I use CDs. I know they dont last early as long as they were once touted to, but then, neither do DVDs, which as mentioned earlier in this thread, cant be read by everyone. Ive thoroughly researched the longevity of different media. I think I have come to the conclusions of:
1. CDs are better for long-term storage than DVDs. 2. Store CDs flat, not on edge. In a cool, dark place, but NOT in a safe that protects during a fire, as most of these can emit a trace amount of vapor that can cause a fungus to grow inside the CD. 3. Keep the CDs in protective jewel cases. 5. Do not use labels or even special pens to write on the CD, and dont print on them directly in a printer. The chemicals in the glues of the labels and inks from the special markers and printers can seep into the CVD and destroy the data. 5. Identify the contents on a piece of paper and tuck it into the jewel case. 6. Copy the CDs every 10 15 years to a new CD, which brings up a last thought.
CDs were originally touted to last 100 years or more. Lets say we all live another 100 years. Aside from the fact that our ears and noses would be huge, we might have another problem. Would we STILL have a CD-ROM to recover our data files from? Probably not. With technology as it is, a new media will appear every so often and we will migrate to it.
So Im thinking if you use CDs and follow the points mentioned above, you should keep your data safe for years to come.
I could handle that, Dave. Because even by then, we may be looking at hardware capable of storing 100 GB in something the size of a pinhead that should be relible for up to 50,000 years. Who knows? 🙂
I hope so. as i said, my biggest concern is that i’m real nervous as to whether my kids will be able to open the pics i take today. my mom and dad have a big box of old family photos that’s great fun to look through. will our kids be able to say the same? will the media last that long? will the technology used to store the media? is going all digital a big mistake?
On the subject of external hard drives, if you’re the least bit handy, consider getting a USB2 or Firewire enclosure (about $25 – $50US). No more difficult than installing a HD in your computer, and you can put any brand/size HD in there that you want. I’m currently using a 120GB LaCie Firewire external. Works fine, but a lot more expensive and proprietary than putting one together yourself.
I feel your concern, Dave. Two quick stories though.
The lady next to me at work lost her house to a fire years ago. Everything! She didn’t miss her furniture or even her home. She missed all of her memories of her children when they were young stored in the form of paper photos. Had she had them on CD, and given a copy to her sisters to store for her, shed still have them!
A friend who passed last year told me a funny story about a year before then. Her mom gave her a baby pic and told her it was my friend as a baby. When my friend was at her sister’s house she saw the same pic in a frame. She asked about it and her sister said, "Yea. I know. Mom gave you one and said it was you. She gave me one and said it was me. She also gave one to our brother and said it was him!"
My mom has an old suitcase at my sister’s house with tons of printed pics. I would sure like to get my baby pics out and scan them for my daughter to have pics of me as a baby. My mom is nearly blind so I don’t know if she could tell which pics are of me in the jumbled mess. If I had they were digital at least I might have an accurate date on the file!
So, no, going digital is not a big mistake. It is IMHO, the right way to go for several reasons. It’s just going to require slightly different handling.
Do not use labels or even special pens to write on the CD, and dont print on them directly in a printer. The chemicals in the glues of the labels and inks from the special markers and printers can seep into the CVD and destroy the data.
This is another reason that I use MAM/Mitsui CDs. Many folks don’t realize it but if you scratch the read surface of a CD, it can usually be buffed out – there are professional services that do this. But if you scratch the TOP of the CD, the label side, you are most likely toast.
MAM uses a protective laquer over the "industry standard" laquer. This does two things: one is that it protects the surface from scratching, and the other is that it is impervious to the organic solvents used in labels.
So moral of the story IMO, is, buy cheap CDs and you’re asking for trouble.
Since use so many CDs on an annual basis, I have been dragged, kicking and screaming into learning about CDs and the manufacturing process. Not all CDs are manufactured the same.
You’re absolutely correct, Tony. Not all CDs are manufactured the same way, and if I may add, they are certainly not manufactured from the same materials!
I stock up on good, name brand CDs when they’re on sale, and no-name when I can’t get the good ones. However, I try not to put anything important on the "cheapies". No archiving of important photos or anything like that. Just copying large files or large numbers of files to transport from work and back etc.
Also, for you and all the others here, it’s Tom if you don’t mind.
I may be picking gnat poop out of pepper, but I just felt that I needed to say that there are two manufacturers I trust TY and MAM. MAM is better IMO, and I don’t buy CDs that have been manufactured for someone else – Memorex, TDK, Verbatim…. they don’t make their CDs, they just brand them.
So I go to the source, and if one is concerned about data life, data integrity and overall durablility, one is taking far less risk by using MAM, for a litany of reasons.
and if I may add, they are certainly not manufactured from the same materials!
Absolutely true. The carrier of the media – that is, the plastic disc or "blank" is just one of them. There aren’t a lot of people who know about wobble tolerances. This wobble tolerance is one of the factors that allows a CD to play at 52X. Cheaper materials warp over time (which you alluded to by the way that you store your disks).
Then there’s the actual dye that’s used. Many branded CDs use Pthalocyanine dye – they get it from MAM; but they don’t apply it the same way or with the same QC.
Finally, the QC specifications of other manufacturers vary widely. Taiyo Yuden and MAM have great specifications but when they sell to other folks for branding, the specifications are not nearly as strict. Taiyo Yuden sells more CDs to folks who brand them (Memorex, TDK, and the like) than MAM but their dye is different.
All I wanted to point out was that if one uses MAM CDs, the label on the top isn’t an issue.
MAM CDs can be purchased from CDW among other suppliers, in cake boxes (50) or in shrink wrapped sleeves of 100. \
The only reason I’m spending this amount of time on a conversation about MAM, is because as we’ve said, a lot of people think that CDs are all pretty much the same. In a forum like this where folks want to preserve their images, I wanted to point out that there ARE good choices in media (and bad ones!)
I’ve read your post about Mitsui CD’s and I heard before that they are better than average.
But I also understand that CD brand, and CD manufacturer are two completely different things.
Is it so that Mitsui (MAM) reveals itself under a utility that detects the maker, or is Mitsui a brand thats printed on the media like Imation or Verbatim (brands I currently use as they are readily available).
Here in Amsterdam there’s a street just around my corner (for those interested: Ceintuurbaan) with a cluster of pc- and pc supply shops, but asking for Mitsui, or raising the subject of CD longevity apparently imposes something new to them.
BTW I use a Plextor drive because it is presented as the only drive that measures the dye and adjusts the laser accordingly.
Are there any Sony Giga Vault external hard drive owners out there? Can anyone provide personal testimony of this model? I’m starting to be concerned about the Maxtor tech support’s caution about being careful with the Maxtor OneTouch (my originally preferred external hard drive I mentioned earlier) when I have to carry it home or elsewhere away from my office computer.
The Sony Giga Vault 80 GB (my fickle preference now) is rated number 2 with PC World Mag, which has a faster rpm than the number 1 rated IOGear Ion Drive. But is there soemthing I may not be aware of with that Sony model? Any crashes or other problems with the Sony?
Is it so that Mitsui (MAM) reveals itself under a utility that detects the maker, or is Mitsui a brand thats printed on the media like Imation or Verbatim
Can be both. Let me clarify it. By the way, Mitsui sold their CD manufactring operation to an Italian company and the product/company was renamed to MAM-A. Here, I will use both terms, MAM and Mitsui, meaning the same thing.
Mitsui sells "branded" CDs. That is to say, you can buy Mitsui’s with MAM printed on them.
Mostly they are sold in bulk, unbranded.
In both cases, utilities that read disc information will identify the manufacturer. But here’s the wrinkle.
You can buy Verbatim discs that are manufactured by MAM or by TY. The way it works is that Verbatim, or any other brand supplier (like memorex, TDK, etc.) has specifications for classes of products they sell. They have "My CD Cheap", "My CD Better", "My CD Best".
There is usually a price differential between the choices. This price differential is dictated by two things: that companies own internal specifications (which may have little or nothing to do with the actual quality of the manufacture), and the bid price from the manufacturer.
The fact that TY and MAM use two different dyes from one another, and that you can get a branded CD made by either manufacturer is testament to the fact that the spec of many "branded" companies has nothing to do with the quality of manufacture or quality of the CD.
So sometimes you can get "My CD Better" that is manufactured by TY and other times it’s manufactured by MAM – that’s usually due to the price. Realize that purchasing departments like to get "two or three" suppliers for product so as to protect themselves from price gouging as well as to ensure consistent supply.
Sometimes you’ll get a branded CD (like Verbatim) that is "My CD Cheap" that is manufactured by TY or some other manufacturer.
The point is, all manufacturers have "grades" of product they produce. Some of their customers have less stringent requirements than others. So when you produce a lot of a couple hundred thousand CDs you put them through quality control. Quality control is expensive, so the amount of quality control and the extent to which they are "measured" affects their selling price. The more stringent the quality control, the more "guaranteed" the lot of CDs are, the higher the price paid for them.
So when you go into a store and buy TDK, Memorex, Verbatim, you don’t know what you’re getting until you stick it in the drive, frankly.
Also note that Verbatim has a small manufacturing facility, and they manufacture (an extremely small number of) CDs as well. My personal opinion is that they have the facility for credibility in the industry, rather than because they are committed to manufacturing CDs.
That’s one reason why I buy from the MFR – because you just don’t know who you’ll get until it’s in the drive. Well, I buy from CDW, mostly, they’ve ordered them in special for me, and now have them available to others. But I too, have two suppliers, both local, but both do mail order as well.
Another high quality manufacturer of CDs is Ritek – if I recall correctly, you *should* be able to get those in Amsterdam – I’d bet money on it.
Ritek uses Pthalocyanine dye that they purchase from MAM. So they have the same data life and general recording properites, but their manufacturing process is a bit different. They’re a good brand – I will only use them when MAM is not available and I’m in a crunch. In my hands, they have a higher failure rate. Also, they don’t put the diamond coat on the label side of the CDs which makes them more vunerable to the environment.
So the sum of all of the above is, in order to determine who manufactured a "branded" disc you have to stick it in the drive, unless it’s branded as TY, MAM, or Ritek.
I use a Plextor drive because it is presented as the only drive that measures the dye and adjusts the laser accordingly.
Yep. Great choice. They’re the only ones who do this to date. It takes a bit longer to burn becaue of that test, but their philosophy is, if the data isn’t perfect, who cares about the speed – a coaster’s a coaster.
I am feeling somewhat remorseful about using this forum for this topic as it is drifing from the OT in a big way and I don’t want to offend anyone. If you have more questions, or want more opinion, I am happy to chat with you via e-mail. I can be reached at edgecomp at ix dot netcom dot com.
Even though it is O/T, I want to second the recommendation for Mitsui CDs. They are ultra-reliable. The specific one we buy is manufactured in the USA.
We almost never have problems, and the research does indicate that their life will be longer than most.
One time we got a bad batch of Mitsui’s. Our failure rate went from essentially zero to 10%. We sent the batch back to our supplier and got every single CD replaced no problem. That says great things about our supplier and the manufacturer!
So, yeah, Mitsui CDs are a great way to backup your images for posterity.
Yes, once I got a bad batch of CDs. That’s how I leaned about the manufacturing process. Not only did my supplier replace them all, but I was in constant communication with Customer Service (to try and understand their lot number naming conventions) who were exceptionally concerned and willing to help.
Net result is, I can now identify when a batch was made, and if a sleeve of CDs is all part of the same lot or not. If there’s a problem, I can switch lots.
I did a bit of gurgling but couldn’t find a UK source. I couldn’t find a way to put a UK address in the MAM order process, which normally means they don’t ship outside the US.
I know that they have Sales offices in Germany, France, and Italy. You can try Contacting <http://www.mam-a.com/contact_info/locations.html> them and find out if they have distributors or retailers for your area.
Looking at pricing, I compared the price of the product that *I* buy from one of my retail supplies (CDW) to that of the price on MAM’s website. The CD’s are about twice as expensive buying directly from MAM, for those CDs. Something to consider.
I know from personal experience that using Post-It notes on a CD is a very bad idea. I had one on my disk for a couple of weeks and then absent mindedly tore it off. It took a piece of the foil with it that was about an inch round! I have mentioned it in this forum several times, but want to reiterate, so that someone else may be spared the heartache. That disk contained the creme de la creme of all of my accumulated graphic elements. I had put them on the disk to save hard-drive space, but didn’t have an additional copy. Yes, it was a very stupid thing to do. I learned this lesson the hard way. Don’t let it happen to you!
A while ago I scratched the top of an irreplaceable (of course) cd. Desperation led me to stick a piece of the self-adhesive chrome tape that signwriters use for bright borders over the scratch (it’s available in many widths from signwriting & art supply shops), with an equivalent piece on the opposite side of the CD for balance.
Worked like a charm, giving the laser something to bounce back off. Saved the data, and my neck.
Before you invest in an external Firewire drive, do some research on the data corruption that seems to pop up when these drives are used. Maybe I’m imagining it, but I think I’ve seen far more reports of this than I would consider normal.
I was reading an old PC Magazine (July) and came across an article about using an old PC as a backup server. It was pretty intriguing. Might not be the worst idea.
They had some nice recommdations for configuring it and strategy. If you’re interested and can’t find the article, lemme know, but it’s searchable on PCMag’s site.
-Hard drives can fail and backups should be done in rotations. This makes external hard drives a bad idea for backups. I don’t even trust external raid cages for backups as I have seen extremely large amounts of data lost if something bad enough happens that it takes out the controller and several drives.
Another reason external drives are not a good backup solution is the growing number of viruses. If you use attached storage as a backup and get a virus that attacks image files for instance you will loose your master and backup at the same time.
-Tapes hold a large amount of data for a reasonable price allowing for a good nightly backup. Keep an archive of End of month or end of week tapes depending on your circumstances. You never know when a file that doesn’t get used much may become corrupt. If it happened 3 months ago and you overwrite your weekly rotation you are SOL.
-I like to archive projects to CD’s as well. Non magnetic media is great for obvious reasons. I have never seen radiation, magnetic interference, solar flares, etc. do damage, but if it ever does having non magnetic backups is a very good idea.
Rules to live by…
#1 Make backups, any backup is better than none at all.
#2 Trust nothing, test your backups often. Nothing worse than grabbing the tape to restore a file only to find that the backup stopped running 2 months ago.
#3 Backup to multiple media types.
#4 Keep a backup off site.
#5 Make sure your backup media is current. If you loose the entire system to a fire you will need to be able to buy a new computer with a drive that can read your backups.
Just use common sense for the most part and you will be fine.
