Correction: I just realized that in my last post I said that I don’t calibrate my monitor. I meant to say that I don’t calibrate my PRINTER. (FYI)
And thanks, Jeffrey, for your input. That makes sense.
Janet
Jeffery,
I guess "advocate" has become too emotionally charged these days. I didn’t mean burn your bra and march on Washington advocacy. I meant to use it in the older simplier meaning of "to speak for". In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better to use "suggests" instead. That conveys what I intended. Let’s not fuss over semantics.
Because of the added complexity and unknowns of dealing with color spaces other than the explicit or implict sRGB, Richard does suggest the use of the no color management setting and a symplified work flow using principles outlined in his book. But, he also clearly states that color management is a personal decision. I feel the same way. Let’s simply leave it at that.
I’m considering adding "Color Management" to "Religion", "Sex", and "Politics" as subjects not to discuss in mixed company.
Bob
Robert,
I’m completely in the camp of ‘Do What Works For You’ in terms of PSE/PS techniques. Since both programs allow many degrees of freedom and multiple paths to achieve almost any particular goal/effect, I’d be hard pressed to get all charged up over much anything in terms of accomplishing a project to ones’ satisfaction. For myself, color management isn’t a controversial issue. A person uses what feels comfortable for their level of skill and desired goals. I’ve found people tend to get more fired up over sharpening techniques than color management. Everyone’s goals and level of satisfaction with output are completely different and highly subjective for the most part. As long as someone is happy with what they’ve achieved, no matter how they got there, then that’s all that really matters.
I was only concerned that what you stated about Mr. Lynch’s position on the matter could be misinterpreted and not any real concern on my part over what method of color management a person uses. Personally, I use both full management with embedded profiles and no management without profiles. It all depends on what uses the final output will be focused towards. I also prefer the larger gamut available with Adobe RGB, the more colors available … the better as far as I’m concerned. However, if a person wants to work in sRGB, more power to them if they are getting what they want as a final result.
Best Wishes,
Jeffrey
I’d just like to add that I think there’s a lot wrong with using the Adobe RGB colour space in Elements. Why?
Once a file is in Adobe RGB (either because your in-camera JPEG is set to it or because you use ACR with color settings on full color management) then there is no easy way to get that file to sRGB. So in Janet’s case if she prints Adobe RGB at home and has to send sRGB files to her printer, she’s stuck if she uses Adobe RGB as her primary space.
Adobe are to be applauded for including 16 bit and RAW support in Elements 3.0, but they’ve crippled the usefulness by not providing the ability to produce a genuine sRGB copy from and Adobe RGB file. Save for web anyone?? I’d like to know how Adobe expect web galleries to work in this instance.
Ian.
Ian,
After reading your rant, I wondered; Do you know if PS CS has the ability to do what you describe? Thanks.
Ooops, did I rant? 🙂
Yes, full Photoshop does let you actually convert an image from one colour space to another and supports many more colour spaces. But CS(2) is a big jump in money for a small single conversion that Adobe ought to provide in Elements…
Ian.
You can convert an Adobe RGB file to sRGB in PSE 3, although it’s a little awkward. Brief workflow (for Windows):
Assume you have a file in ARGB that is not open. Before you open it, change the color settings in PSE3 to "Limited Color Management" in the Edit menu. Now open the file. It likely will look somewhat desaturated. Do whatever you want with the image. Then select "Save as" in the File menu. Near the bottom is a checkbox labelled "ICC Profile: sRGB IEC61966-2.1 that is NOT checked. Check it and save the file. You can verify the file is sRGB by looking at the File Info in the PSE3 File Browser.
It took me a while to discover I had to do this for my local photofinisher or the prints all came out with the undesirable desaturated look. Apparently most Fuji Crystalscan setups use sRGB and do not read any other profile like ARGB, and probably most files they receive are sRGB anyway.
Duncan
Hi Duncan,
This is not actually converting the file. What is happening (I believe) is that in Limited Colour management, PSE uses sRGB as the working space regardless of the colour space of the file. This is why you see the file look somewhat desaturated when you open it as PSE has effectively used the wrong colourspace albeit because you have told it to.
The reason this is working for you is because you then tweak it, which is what I assume you mean by "do whatever you want with the image", so that it looks right on the screen. You then save it and tick the sRGB box. This is infact now an sRGB file, but Elements has performed no conversion. You’ve simply opened it which shifts the colours, compensated for the colour shift and saved it.
If it was a conversion, you could open the Adobe RGB file in PSE, it would look correct straight away and you’d simply save it with NO adjustments to sRGB. If you then opened both files in PSE they would look pretty similar on screen. If you did the same using Internet Explorer, you’d see the sRGB one look right and the Adobe RGB one look desaturated.
Interestingly while testing this I noticed that on XP service pak 2, my windows explorer preview window appears to be displaying Adobe RGB files correctly!!! If I open one in there it looks the same as in PSE in full colour management. If I open the same file in Internet Explorer it looks dull and flat… Am I seeing things???!!!! I thought Windows preview was NOT a colour managed application!!
The only way that I’m aware of to convert with Elements, is to drag an sRGB file onto an AdobeRGB file ( and vice versa, working in the appropriate colorspace ). The resulting file is in the colorspace of the destination file. A "master" blank AdobeRGB file and sRGB file can be kept for this purpose. It’s a little convoluted, but its better than nothing, I suppose.
🙂
Brent
Yes, that’s what I do when I want to save photos for the web. It’s a real PITA, and Adobe should just quit jerking us around and provide more convenient access to the functionality which is already clearly present in the SW.
Brent, I have to confess that I have no idea how to drag an sRGB file onto an AdobeRGB file. Are you referring to an image file (an actual photo) or some other type of file? And what do you mean by a master blank file for sRGB and AdobeRGB? I’d appreciate your explaining this in more detail, if you’d be willing, since I would like to know how to do this.
Thanks,
Janet
To begin with, Janet, I use full color management mode in Edit > color preferences. Then File > New > Blank File , make it 8 1/2 " wide, 11" long, 300 ppi , background of your choice. This image becomes your "convert to AdobeRGB master".
Save it as AdobeBlank.tif or somesuch name, with the AdobeRGB box checked.
Now , with this image in your workspace, open an sRGB file to be converted. When it is open, "Select All", click the Move tool, and drag the selection onto the AdobeBlank image. Once it lands on the AdobeBlank image, it will be in a seperate layer, and it will be converted to AdobeRGB colorspace ( check it with the info palette set to "document profile" . You can now crop the image , and "save as" to a different file name, so you don’t inadvertently overwrite the AdobeBlank.tif file.
Clear as mud ? Easier to step through it, than to explain.
🙂
Brent
For what it’s worth, it’s crystal clear to me, Brent. 🙂
Like Mark says, it’s a PITA when you want to run off a gallery’s worth of photos for web use. It should be a simple conversion option and also included in the process multiple file dialog too. This one thing would make Elements so much better for me!
Brent —
Thanks for the detailed instructions. That’s easier and more automatic than the way I was doing it (although results are similar). I’m going from ARGB (all my images) to sRGB (what I need for printing), but the changes to do this are just reversing the two color tags. The main disadvantage I see is that the file name doesn’t carry over, and the file needs to be renamed manually. I notice you use a tiff file as the intermediate; a photoshop .psd seems to work as well.
It’s so nice to get a straight answer to a nagging problem here!
Janet —
Thanks for asking for the additional detail. I intended to make the same post, but you beat me to it before I even started.
Ian —
Yes, it would be nice to have the automatic conversion, but we don’t (yet?) Maybe in PSE4. Given the amount of editing I seem to need to do, it’s a relatively small amount of time for me.
Duncan
Brent, just to clarify — do I need to make my AdobeRGB master file a TIFF file, as you do? Or can I make it a JPEG file? I normally work with JPEG files.
Thanks,
Janet
You can make the file any format that will keep a colorspace tag. There is currently an active thread going about lossy JPG compression, but I’m not preaching , here. [ MUCH !! ]
🙂
