Adobe CS, Worth moving to XP?

EL
Posted By
Engilbert_Legaspi
Oct 2, 2003
Views
1619
Replies
83
Status
Closed
When Adobe CS was announced, my friends and I wowed to the new release of Photoshop and Illustrator but there was one thing that held as back, Its the upgrade to Windows 2000 or XP. With all the bugs and viruses coming out only on 2000 and XP and not to mention some softwares that are not running on XP and sometimes has glitches on XP. I’d rather stick to Windows 98 and Photoshop 7 or maybe move to Mac OS X all together.
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 2, 2003
Well, you’re not in the minority, that’s for sure.

Here’s the simple, plain answer. If you wanna play, you gotta be XP/2K.
RH
r_harvey
Oct 2, 2003
If you wanna play, you gotta be XP/2K

Make sure that your computer is up to it. MS offers a program that’ll sniff out your hardware–mine’s marginal. The sound card would have to go, and that video card looks suspicious, too.
RB
Robert_Blackwell
Oct 2, 2003
It really is time to upgrade. Regardless of all of the bugs/viruses/whatever, all those can easily be forgotten if you just take some time to setup your firewall, and keep your virus definitions up to date, and of course, be religious with windows update.

I can’t even remember how many times a day I was rebooting because of a crash or something with Win9x. I boot up once each day and that’s it. No more random crashes (except with dreamweaver for some reason, usually cause I’m too impatient to wait for it).

It’s up to you whether or not you wanna upgrade to W2K or XP for only $150, or buy a new Mac for $1500-$2000 and pay cross platform upgrades for all of your software(AFIAK, Macromedia doesn’t offer cross platform upgrades so you’d be SOL there).
DP
Daryl_Pritchard
Oct 2, 2003
While it may not be a sure-fire fix, one thing to keep in mind about Windows XP and running older software developed for Win9x, is that XP has the "compatibility mode" which resolves those problems for some software. That is, you can tell XP to run the softare as if it was running under Win9x.

I agree with Robert on this question…moving to WinXP is worthwhile if your system is up to spec for it. As for viruses and such, I basically ask "what’s that??", becuase I have never had my PC infected by a virus even as far back as Win95. Why? Good anti-virus software that is always active. Now that I’m behind a firewall, the system is even safer. I’d never claim being immune to viruses or hackers, but it isn’t hard to provide a pretty good defense for the majority of the more common threats.

Regards,

Daryl
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 2, 2003
It is worthwhile moving to W2000 or WinXP (assuming that your hardware can support it) no matter if you upgrade to CS or not. If you move to WinXP, you’ve got to beat on it a while to get it to stop being Microsoft adware/nagware, and I really don’t like the eyecandy, but it seems to work well. I find W2000 cleaner.

Tim
DM
dave_milbut
Oct 2, 2003
you can turn the eye candy off in xp by going into performance options under my computer. i do.
DM
Don_McCahill
Oct 2, 2003
I don’t think XP is buggy … if you don’t do the foolish upgrade route. Do a clean install from a blank hard disk and you shouldn’t have problems.

(For that matter, I didn’t have trouble with 2000, so long as you keep current with the service patches.)
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 2, 2003
Yes, Dave, sorry if I made it seem that it wasn’t possible. Maybe you also know how to get My Computer from separating the drives? If I ever found that, I forgot. I’ve had to play with it to support it, but haven’t learned all the tricks, I’m happy staying with W2000 until I can’t anymore.

Tim
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 2, 2003
Anyone got a link to the MS "sniffer" to see if your hardware can handle the upgrade?
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 2, 2003
Here’s a link to the one for W2000:
< http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang= en&familyid=b008d64c-dd8d-4816-a3d9-fd2ed787e735>
I didn’t see one for XP; there were more changes from everything else to W2000 than from W2000 to XP, so this will probably get you in the ballpark.

Tim
SM
Stuart_McCoy
Oct 2, 2003
Tim,

You have to go into the MMC (right-click My Computer and select ‘Manage’ – W2K and WXP) and choose Disk Management. Go to Help > Help Topics and select the Disk Management book node and you’ll find all the answers (and more) to your questions about managing drives on your system. Let me warn you now, doing this sort of stuff really relies on prior planning on your part.
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 2, 2003
Hi Stuart,

I don’t *think* I’m looking for disk management, just a change in the display. I can’t boot into XP at the moment, I’m in the middle of an image (Maybe I should reload VMware and XP on my Linux box). The real management I’ve got down, I just want the display of drives to look like it does in W2000… MS loves to eat screen acreage with marginal addition of information.

Tim
RB
Robert_Blackwell
Oct 2, 2003
Windows XP Compatability Check <http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/howtobuy/upgrading/>

If you are running a P3 or later, and have a mobo with no integrated components, you’ll probably upgrade with out a hitch.
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 2, 2003
Thanks Bob.
SM
Stuart_McCoy
Oct 2, 2003
Oh, in that case all you need to do is right click in the Explorer window and uncheck "Show in Groups". If you want ALL your folders to ignore file grouping then you need to do the above then select Tools > Folder Options > View tab and click "Apply to All Folders".
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 2, 2003
Aha! Thanks Stuart, I’ll check that next time I’m there.

Tony… there were a number of software compatibility issues moving from Win 9x/NT4 to W2000, check your vital software. I don’t know how well the compatibility manager works in XP… maybe someone else has tested. Some of the software I support was severely broken by W2000, as well as some of the packages that I normally used.

Tim
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 2, 2003
Strange. The Upgrade advisor tells me I’m running NAV (which I am) and to disable it. Once I click OK. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Go to Windows catalog or exit. <shrug> Some tool.

Not sure what to make of it.
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 2, 2003
Aha! Thanks Stuart, I’ll check that next time I’m there.

Tony… there were a number of software compatibility issues moving from Win 9x/NT4 to W2000, check your vital software. I don’t know how well the compatibility manager works in XP… maybe someone else has tested. Some of the software I support was severely broken by W2000, as well as some of the packages that I normally used.

Tim
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 2, 2003
Does the tool suggest that it will disable it? Maybe you need to do it manually, then run again.

Tim
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 2, 2003
It said that NAV would screw up running XP Setup so disable it. I turned off AutoProtect and still got the same message. I’m NOT friggin uninstalling NAV just to run this.
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 2, 2003
Tony, That tool is a piece of junk. Frankly, I’m surprised MS even allows people to use it. If anything it probably scares people away from upgrading.

If you have any machine less than 3 years old using mainstream hardware you shouldn’t have any trouble using XP. The only issue would be any older programs you’re still running.

Check the websites of the manufacturer of your video card and sound card to see if there are drivers. If so, and you have at least 256 megs of RAM (if you’re going to really run Photoshop with large files, I’d suggest 1 gig) then go for it.

It’s an incredibly easy install.

Bob
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 2, 2003
Thanks Bob.

The screen "fonts" on the advisor are a bit screwy too. I’m re-downloading it just for giggles and grins.

I’m sure I’ll be able to run XP, this was an academic exercise. There will be some software compatability issues, like Backup Exec won’t work, I’m sure. But a gig of RAM is pretty much out of the question. I’m running 256 now and the whole upgrade thing is getting more and more costly. I may as well just wait six or eight months and buy new system(s).
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 2, 2003
I won’t dispute you, Bob, my experience with that tool, or some version of it, is a few years old, but it seemed to give good pointers then. Maybe the report was just stating that NAV was the only thing running that is a problem. I can’t test the thing here, everything’s been running W2000; would be Monday before I’m back in the office with machines that could test the tester.

Tim
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 2, 2003
Thanks Bob.

The screen "fonts" on the advisor are a bit screwy too. I’m re-downloading it just for giggles and grins.

I’m sure I’ll be able to run XP, this was an academic exercise. There will be some software compatability issues, like Backup Exec won’t work, I’m sure. But a gig of RAM is pretty much out of the question. I’m running 256 now and the whole upgrade thing is getting more and more costly. I may as well just wait six or eight months and buy new system(s).
RH
r_harvey
Oct 2, 2003
I may as well just wait six or eight months and buy new system(s).

Yep. One with a shiny silver Apple logo on it.
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 2, 2003
Ya know Harv, if it wasn’t for all the other application software, that’s what I’d probably do.

But what I’m really hoping for is more OpenWare – linux. IBM is investing heavily and there’s a lot of momentum. <shaking fist> One day, you big software companies will be sorry! <grin>
DM
dave_milbut
Oct 3, 2003
Tony, for what it’s worth (you have an amd 700 right approx a Pent. 3?) I ran xp fine for about 2 years on an intel p3 800 w/384 ram.
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 3, 2003
Yeah Dave, it’s an Athalon 700 – one of the machines is anyway. I’m pretty sure I’d be okay, but again…

Upgrade Backup Exec (yuck), upgrade XP (hmmmm… one system? Naw), buy a five seat license to PS so I can move around freely without the Marketing police coming to arrest me. This part steams me the most. One guy, five seat license.

Will Office 2000 Developer (pre-activation release) run on XP? What about most other "Designed for Windows 9x" apps? Existing Flash and Director? Something about compatability mode?
KV
Klaas_Visser
Oct 3, 2003
Tony,

My sister runs Office 97 on WinXP with no problems, so your Office 2000 shouldn’t be a problem.

Compatability mode is where you "attach" a mode to a program. Say you have WonderSoftware9x, and want to run it on WinXP (and it doesn’t natively) – you find the main program executable, and right-click for properties, and tell it to run in 9x mode – simple as that.

I think a bigger problem may be peripherals. The CPU sounds okay, but what other devices do you have? Some manufacturers don’t provide XP drivers for older devices. Some devices only have MS WinXP native drivers, which may not be as good as the manufacturer’s earlier versions, etc, etc.
TH
Tina_Hayes
Oct 3, 2003
I’m still running ’98 also, but I will be upgrading to Win2K. I just MUST have every Photoshop upgrade…so yeah as much as I don’t like it, I will be upgtading.

I started at PS 5, and have done every upgrade since, and have never, ever been disappointed. Photoshop just keeps getting better.

So IMO…yeah..do the upgrade.
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 3, 2003
and right-click for properties, and tell it to run in 9x mode – simple as that.

Hmm… maybe Backup Exec WILL work then…

Thanks Klaas, and Tina.

In regards to perpherals, technically, only two, a high end scsi scanner and a printer – both have XP drivers available. The only other stuff is CD-ROM and CD-RW. I presume I wouldn’t have to worry about my soundblaster or video; HD’s should be a snap, let’s see… network… that’d be it for hardware. Pretty basic really.

That’d be it for one system. The others can remain 98 unless I opt for the (friggin) 5 seat license of PS. Speaking of which, I’m wondering what a 5 seater would cost for the suite. What the heck am I talking about? I can’t afford it.

Well, anyway, thanks folks.
KV
Klaas_Visser
Oct 3, 2003
Hmm… maybe Backup Exec WILL work then…

One word of caution (that I should have mentioned) – not all software will work in compatibility mode – it depends on how the software interacts with the OS.

What version of Backup Exec are you currently running?
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 3, 2003
Veritas Backup Exec 4.2;

It’s not a huge deal if it’s not compatible – we have to re-think our needs for backup now anyway.
JD
Jeff_Darken
Oct 3, 2003
Only my experience.

I changed over to WinXP home about six months ago with a new machine, after being a fan of W98 for several years.

I am running Office 2000 (from the old machine) and many of Adobe’s products along with a SCSI scanner using in old advansys card and firewire portable HD.

WinXP recognised and installed everything without a hitch including my old Oxford Dictionary software (probably came out for W.3.1).

And it never crashes! Whereas W98 used to go down regularly. Programmes may occasionally crash but WinXP confines to them to their own mess and offers to report the programme to MS! Pagemaker 7 is the most regular culprit when you close it. Did the same on W98.

Jeff
DM
dave_milbut
Oct 3, 2003
office 2000 works fine on xp. not compatability mode needed.

i’d agree w/klaas, be careful with your backup util. the things you DON’T want to run in compatability mode are things that hit the system at a low level… like disk and system utilities.

And it never crashes!

that’s the coolest thing about xp. 🙂
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 3, 2003
I’m going to throw another $0.02 at you, Tony.

IME the compatibility mode doesn’t work very well. It’s certainly worth trying but don’t count on it to save you from an application that just won’t run on XP.

Bob
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 3, 2003
So IMO…yeah..do the upgrade.

Go for it, but as always I advise a clean installation.

Bob
DE
david_evanson
Oct 3, 2003
YrbkMgr,

My experience of older Software which runs on XP:-
MS Office Pro 2000; Dreamweaver 3; Fireworks 3; Corel Draw 7 and 8. Although I could not get the Album software from Corel 7 to work – the compatibility mode was no help, tried 95, NT and Win2k (the software did run on a real Win2k box)
Hardware:-
Wacom Intuos (serial port version); Nikon Coolscan II. (Adaptec 29160N SCSI card).

As others have said – watch out for software which hooks into the OS at a low level, e.g Software firewalls – AV software (Norton 2002 is ok) and disk utilities Diskeeper 7 is ok.
DM
Derrick_Moore
Oct 3, 2003
Veritas Backup Exec
I don’t believe this product exists as a desktop program anymore. There is a server version that’s very expensive that I wouldn’t recommend to anyone. We use the native backup that’s free with 2000 server, and it’s the same one you’ll get in XP. If you really want a backup with a nicer interface I’d look at Backup MyPC (yes, it’s an awful name), it’s cheap and it will backup open files, but it won’t run on server software.



Rick Moore
Barnes Gromatzky Kosarek Architects
(512) 476 7133
(512) 478 2624 FAX
www.bgkarchitects.com
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 3, 2003
From the Veritas website:

Backup Exec Desktop™

VERITAS Backup Exec Desktop is the solution of choice for reliable, automated desktop data protection on a single computer running Windows 95/Windows 98/Windows Millennium/Windows NT Workstation 4.0/Windows 2000 Professional.

No mention of XP.

Not that it’s important – as I say, we need to re-evaluate backup anyway. We need to sit down and define what we expect out of backup and then form follows function. Of all the strategies, for us, "snapshot in time" is probably the route we’ll go, v. "historical perspective". So it may make more sense to ghost or mirror drives onto external HD’s (USB, FireWire). They’re easier to administer and in all the time I’ve used tape ("historical perspective") solutions, the library grows beyond managability.

So I’m grateful for the input on Backup Exec, I’m not convinced we’ll be using it when we go to XP, which, of course, now we HAVE to, if we want to use Photoshop CS.

Let’s see… groceries or upgrades? Well, I AM a bit overweight… <grin>
DM
Derrick_Moore
Oct 3, 2003
No big deal, Tony, but I’m curious as to where you found "Backup Exec DesktopT"? It’s not in the list of products, doesn’t show in a search of the site and doesn’t show any results in a search of the web. Backup MyPC is what used to be called Seagate Backup, or Colorado Backup before that, then Veritas bought it and called it Backup Exec but now Sonic Solutions has it and gave it a stupid name. Very confusing…



Rick Moore
Barnes Gromatzky Kosarek Architects
(512) 476 7133
(512) 478 2624 FAX
www.bgkarchitects.com
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 3, 2003
I’m not convinced we’ll be using it when we go to XP, which, of course, now we HAVE to, if we want to use Photoshop CS.

While I would advise going to XP simply because it’s newer and will have a longer life, Photoshop CS will run on Win 2K.

Bob
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 3, 2003
Rick,

<http://www.veritas.com/us/products/backupexec/>

Bob,

Yeah, yeah. You a lawyer by chance? <grin>
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 3, 2003
Yeah, yeah. You a lawyer by chance? <grin>

Hmmm, I don’t know whether I was just complimented or insulted. 🙂

Bob
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 3, 2003
<laugh>
DM
Derrick_Moore
Oct 3, 2003
Hmm, that’s the 2 year old program that became BackupMyPC, don’t know why the page is still on their site, you can’t buy it anymore. Good luck with how you decide to spend your upgrade money, I’d recommend RAM first, then XP. Use XP’s built-in backup while deciding what to do with your backup strategy. This may be overkill for you but we got an Exabyte VXA-2 that holds 80 gigs uncompressed on one tape, it works very well and is a lot faster than all my previous tape drives.



Rick Moore
Barnes Gromatzky Kosarek Architects
(512) 476 7133
(512) 478 2624 FAX
www.bgkarchitects.com

<http://www.veritas.com/us/products/backupexec/>
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 3, 2003
Thanks Rick. We’re probably going to go Image v. Tape, but I’m grateful for the input.
TE
Thomas_Ellefson
Oct 3, 2003
heh, I’ve yet to see any program work thanks to XPs compatibility mode. Most of the things I’ve tried have been win95 stuff, and no winners yet.

Aside from that, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by XP. I had to make the switch from 2k at work, and I liked it so much I went ahead and left XP on the last new PC I bought at home. Word of warning to any other poor saps that have to make do with onboard video: Turn off all of the desktop/taskbar graphic enhancements or they’ll eat up your memory.

tye
RH
r_harvey
Oct 3, 2003
Most of the things I’ve tried have been win95 stuff, and no winners yet.

So, none of your old software works, and all of your new software is being updated, I’m missing the advantage of XP over Macintosh.
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 3, 2003
Who said there was an advantage?

Bob
E
E._Segen
Oct 4, 2003
“So, none of your old software works, and all of your new software is being updated, I’m missing the advantage of XP over Macintosh.”

Well, from my perspective it would be price and options… For all the complaining I hear about the “evil empire” and how they force everything down your throat and overcharge there are two simple facts that people tend to ignore: Macs are more expensive and Apple is far more monopolistic than Microsoft with their hardware/software implementation.

I can go buy a copy of Windows XP and put it on any box I buy (or build) that meets the minimum system requirements (which even the elcheapo $200 Wal-Mart online special that comes with Lindows will). The same can’t be said for OS X since at least some of those parts have to come directly from Apple and they don’t sell them as parts for any purpose other than authorized repair.

An argument can be maid that you pay for quality with Apple and that by controlling the hardware as well as the software with propriety you eliminate a good deal of the stability issues that have plagued Windows for years due to high variables in component combinations. Personally, I’ll take my chances on the PC side and enjoy the freedom that it affords me.

I have nothing against Apple. I just ordered a spiffy new 40 gig ipod and I’m all for individuality but when it comes to something I use on a daily basis that is made easier because of the number of companies and individuals supporting it, I also enjoy staying with the majority. I once read a comparison where someone likened Macs to high end cars that people are willing to pay more for where as Windows boxes were more economy based. The argument was that they would both get you to the same place but one would do it with more comfort and style than the other. This is only partially true. Since the Mac needs special gas and can only drive on roads built for it, it may or may not get you to the same place as the windows system (it will certainly get you to fewer).

And I’ve yet to have any kind of a problem with compatibility mode for any of the software I use. Admittedly, I’m not running much software these days that is over 6 years old so I don’t have to do much Windows 95 emulation. Adobe Streamline still works fine without it.

BTW, are you already a Mac user who is trying to ‘turn’ the rest of us or cause trouble or are you feeling the need to voice the inner conflicts you are having on weather or not to switch with the rest of the world? I ask only because from various posts of yours you seem awfully pro-Mac and anti-Windows for a person in a Windows forum.
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 4, 2003
I don’t think that r_harvey is trolling. Many of us look wistfully at the other side of the road from time to time, then realise how likely we are to get flattened while crossing it.
RH
r_harvey
Oct 4, 2003
there are two simple facts that people tend to ignore: Macs are more expensive…

Without the economies of scale, they have to charge more to keep in business, and their customer base is used to a slight gouging (as are luxury car or natural produce customers); if they stopped, they couldn’t start it again, and it could be fatal. Note, too, that Steve Jobs isn’t anywhere nere the top of Forbes’ billionaire list, and the company has been called dead about once a year since they opened the doors.

The main problem is that the CPU Apple chose was from Motorola, a company that is several generations behind the rest of the world, and apparently more interested in telephones than computers. Dollars-per-MIPS made them look expensive. They are moving away from Motorola; the first new generation computers are here, and they are expensive–the early adoptors will get hosed. However, the new CPUs cost no more than the old Motorolas, and they are much faster, so in coming months the Dollars-per-MIPS will look much better.

and Apple is far more monopolistic than Microsoft with their hardware/software implementation.

It’s a monopoly when you own the market. It’s a predatory monopoly when you leverage that power as a barrier to entry. MS, please note, is a convicted predatory monopolist, has lost many lawsuits, and has an extensive backlog of lawsuits left to lose. Before you say it, of course everybody’s gunning for them because they have deep pockets–because they got those deep pockets by keeping those who are gunning for them from getting deep pockets, too.

I can go buy a copy of Windows XP and put it on any box I buy (or build) that meets the minimum system requirements…

As long as it was built in this decade. A lot of people have old boxes that they’re gonna get the last dime out of.

(which even the elcheapo $200 Wal-Mart online special that comes with Lindows will).

…The same can’t be said for OS X since at least some of those parts have to come directly from Apple and they don’t sell them as parts for any purpose other than authorized repair.

That was the case. Now, especially with greater integration and less dependence on internal devices, commodity hardware is available. Their motherboards are proprietary–that and the OS are all that separate a Mac from a Wall-Mart PC.

And I’ve yet to have any kind of a problem with compatibility mode for any of the software I use.

I still fall back on Norton Commander, from 1990, and some utilities almost that old. If applications are written to the specifications, even 32-bit command line utilities, they should work–if they don’t, I’d wonder as much about MS’ motivation as the applications.

BTW, are you already a Mac user who is trying to ‘turn’ the rest of us or cause trouble or are you feeling the need to voice the inner conflicts you are having on weather or not to switch with the rest of the world? I ask only because from various posts of yours you seem awfully pro-Mac and anti-Windows for a person in a Windows forum.

Thanks for reading my posts. My Mac experience is limited to going to a few Apple shows, reading, and just a bit of playing with them. I’ve used IBM-compatibles for 17-years; I actually bought MS Windows 1.0. Instead of repeating every evil detail, which I’m sure you’ve heard and apparently ignored, I’ll just say that, from my experience, MS deserves its reputation–and more. I’ll probably move to Mac–as soon as I can afford the entry fee.
E
E._Segen
Oct 4, 2003
Yea, I guess I came off a little rough. I didn’t really mean to go as far as to site a troll spotting… I guess with emotions being high right now because of the OS requirements and the whole activation thing, people are understandably a bit upset.

And on a side note, next time I’ll pay more attention to how I type and to what happens during spell check! 😉
E
E._Segen
Oct 4, 2003
Yea, I guess I came off a little rough. I didn’t really mean to go as far as to site a troll spotting… I guess with emotions being high right now because of the OS requirements and the whole activation thing, people are understandably a bit upset.

And on a side note, next time I’ll pay more attention to how I type and to what happens during spell check! 😉
RH
r_harvey
Oct 4, 2003
Well, it was okay the first time, but if you’re gonna beat it into the ground…

<bender-voice>
Kiss My Shiny Metal Apple Logo
</bender-voice>

Naw, I kid, because I love. But…
E
E._Segen
Oct 4, 2003
“Without the economies of scale, they have to charge more to keep in business, and their customer base is used to a slight gouging (as are luxury car or natural produce customers); if they stopped, they couldn’t start it again, and it could be fatal. Note, too, that Steve Jobs isn’t anywhere nere the top of Forbes’ billionaire list, and the company has been called dead about once a year since they opened the doors.”

But this was a situation that Apple has at least to some degree created themselves. When IBM chose to take a more open approach to the design of their systems largely responsible for the PC crowd and Apple chose to keep theirs closer to the vest, they immediately walled themselves off and as a result today it isn’t Apple against Microsoft – it is Apple against pretty much all of the rest of the PC world. When the Mac clones started popping up it looked like things might change but then Jobs came back in and cut off those markets pushing the whole thing into a completely proprietary system again.

”The main problem is that the CPU Apple chose was from Motorola, a company that is several generations behind the rest of the world, and apparently more interested in telephones than computers. Dollars-per-MIPS made them look expensive. They are moving away from Motorola; the first new generation computers are here, and they are expensive–the early adoptors will get hosed. However, the new CPUs cost no more than the old Motorolas, and they are much faster, so in coming months the Dollars-per-MIPS will look much better.”

So are you saying that the new systems will come down a little in price or are you saying that they will come down enough in price to be more financially competitive than their predecessors? I ask this because the G5’s were nowhere near the start of the comparatively high priced Mac system. To the contrary, they may be some of the first in a while to be able to justify their price fully with performance alone – at least for the moment (because there is more competition on the Windows PC side, thus lowering prices and allowing for a faster progression of the technology).

“It’s a monopoly when you own the market. It’s a predatory monopoly when you leverage that power as a barrier to entry. MS, please note, is a convicted predatory monopolist, has lost many lawsuits, and has an extensive backlog of lawsuits left to lose. Before you say it, of course everybody’s gunning for them because they have deep pockets–because they got those deep pockets by keeping those who are gunning for them from getting deep pockets, too.”

So if you look at Macs as a separate market which I do because they require proprietary hardware at their core and operate on an OS that is also proprietary and specific to this hardware (like a gaming system for instance) then Apple has a Monopoly of their own, right? Apple doesn’t have to leverage that power since as the exclusive developer of systems for their OS there is effectively nobody to leverage power against… Well, except for other software makers which Apple hasn’t and would never do, right? Is Safari better than Internet Explorer? Does it even matter? Microsoft obviously saw that one coming (but hey? It isn’t like it’s nothing they’ve never done themselves, right?). So what about Adobe? No future development of Premiere on that platform and no development of new products (such as Encore) which might be competing on some level with an Apple product. Come on, Apple controls their user base. If they can get people to treat the release of there first webcam device (nearly a decade after the rest of the world) like it is the second coming of Christ they can pretty much push other companies out of their market at wll.

“As long as it was built in this decade. A lot of people have old boxes that they’re gonna get the last dime out of.”

I still have a 400mhz Pentium 2 running Windows XP just fine. I had to upgrade the memory a bit and it is admittedly slow running newer applications but all of the hardware was 100% compatible during the upgrade. Mileage in this are will of course vary and I’m not trying to suggest that all old systems can handle this or even that most can but people did not need to run out and buy new computers to run XP as your post would suggest… Even that aside, I’d have to say it seems a bit odd that a person using Photoshop would be happily doing so on a system much older than three or four years anyway since the system requirements have been bumping up with each release. It isn’t like we are talking about MS paint here. High end software doesn’t run well on a 6 year old system regardless of which version of Windows we are talking about.

“That was the case. Now, especially with greater integration and less dependence on internal devices, commodity hardware is available. Their motherboards are proprietary–that and the OS are all that separate a Mac from a Wall-Mart PC.”

Your point? If you want to purchase a system that will run OS X, who does it HAVE to come from? You and I both know this is not an accident. This is why Apple holds so much control over their comparatively small market and is in my opinion a big part of why their market stays so small. If Apple were to allow third parties to develop systems for use under their OS, I would think that this is something that companies such as Dell and HP would at least look into. I’m sure there are a few people that would run out into the streets and slit their own throats in protest but third party systems would come out, prices would come down, more people would buy and the market would grow – especially since Microsoft can’t do much about it without being taken apart by the federal government… Of course, Apple would not be able to dictate control over everything like they have for years or risk getting themselves caught up in a Microsoft style suit but that is kind of the point with our discussion in the first place, isn’t it?

“I still fall back on Norton Commander, from 1990, and some utilities almost that old. If applications are written to the specifications, even 32-bit command line utilities, they should work–if they don’t, I’d wonder as much about MS’ motivation as the applications.”

So part of your gripe is that windows XP will not properly run file management software that predates windows 95 by nearly half a decade? Are you also a person who thinks windows should be more stable as well? Hmm, maybe they should allow direct memory access to all old software that requires it too, right?

“Thanks for reading my posts. My Mac experience is limited to going to a few Apple shows, reading, and just a bit of playing with them. I’ve used IBM-compatibles for 17-years; I actually bought MS Windows 1.0. They’ve gotten more evil by the minute. Instead of repeating every evil detail, which I’m sure you’ve heard and apparently ignored, I’ll just say that, from my experience, MS deserves its reputation–and more. I’ll probably move to Mac–as soon as I can afford the entry fee.”

My point is that some people (yourself included) seem to think that Microsoft is some evil monster who is bent on ruling the world and stripping our souls. It is simply a company that exists to make money. I don’t ignore that but I also don’t spend most of my time worrying about how the “man” is keeping me down, either. Do you also shun AT&T and prefer to use smoke signals to make local phone calls because of what they put you through when they were running an illegal monopoly?..

You realize that Microsoft isn’t looking out for you. Good. Now because of that, do you think Apple actually is? You must if you are willing to take the 90% control Microsoft has over your computing experience and give almost 100% of it to Apple. Does Ford have your best interest at heart? How about McDonalds? This may come as a shock to you but these companies do not exist to make our lives better – neither do the insurance companies or the drug manufacture
E
E._Segen
Oct 4, 2003
And finally, that first reply came before I saw your first reply… I still don’t mean to detract from what I double posted (sorry about that) but I went fully back into debate mode there… Just wanted to make sure you didn’t view it as a personal attack or anything.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go soak my fingers… (rolleyes)
RH
r_harvey
Oct 4, 2003
After posting this, I’m going to take a cold shower…

But this was a situation that Apple has at least to some degree created themselves.

Apple has been allowed to survive at the pleasure of MS. If they had killed it along with the other computer options, instead of merely crippling it, the MS position would be tough to defend… in court or in the marketplace. There used to be a lot of funny little Apple-like computer companies.

When the Mac clones started popping up it looked like things might change but then Jobs came back in and cut off those markets pushing the whole thing into a completely proprietary system again.

They licensed the clones, along with BIOS and technology. I’m not sure if it was a good idea when Apple closed that door–but they did it because they wanted to remain a hardware company, not an OS supplier. Recall that in the mid ’80s, Gates went to Apple with the goal of porting MacOS to PCs; Jobs turned him down, apparently for the same reason.

So are you saying that the new systems will come down a little in price…

Apple can’t afford to sell computers for $399, so expect fairly stable prices, but with more MIPS and goodies. At some point, you’ll be able to build an 8-way Opteron box for little money–I can’t imagine anybody competing with that.

…justify their price fully with performance alone – at least for the moment (because there is more competition on the Windows PC side, thus lowering prices and allowing for a faster progression of the technology).

970/G5 will scale as well as AMD/Intel for a few years–as far as I can see. Intel doesn’t seem to be handling the, if you will, BTU/MIPS problem, as well as the 970 and AMD. There’s a time coming when MIPS will be more than sufficient, and the concern will be about air conditioning.

…Apple has a Monopoly of their own, right? Apple doesn’t have to leverage that power since as the exclusive developer of systems for their OS there is effectively nobody to leverage power against…

A sole source does not mean a monopoly. They have no power to leverage.

Is Safari better than Internet Explorer? Does it even matter? Microsoft obviously saw that one coming

In that issue, the point was that MS supported Mac with IE to prove to the Govt. that they were not being exclusionary. If I were a lawyer, I’d be looking into that as a DOJ violation.

So what about Adobe? No future development of Premiere on that platform and no development of new products (such as Encore)…

Premiere likely represented very few Mac sales, and potentially even fewer when they had to compete with Apple. The market is shifting… Adobe also has visions of those cheap 8-way Opterons.

I’d have to say it seems a bit odd that a person using Photoshop would be happily doing so on a system much older than three or four years anyway…

I talked about this in the lounge (see the Macromedia MX Activation thread). Lots of people with Y2K boxes, trying to stretch.

…Apple holds so much control over their comparatively small market and is in my opinion a big part of why their market stays so small. If Apple were to allow third parties to develop systems for use under their OS, I would think that this is something that companies such as Dell and HP would at least look into.

They’re keeping their options open; Marklar (the X86-based version of OS/X) is there in case their world blows-up. Right now, I don’t see the beige box folks wanting–or able–to bail on MS.

…Microsoft can’t do much about it without being taken apart by the federal government…

They’ve ignored judgments against them so far. They have the resources to fight anything. "Smithers, get my checkbook…"

Of course, Apple would not be able to dictate control over everything like they have for years or risk getting themselves caught up in a Microsoft style suit but that is kind of the point with our discussion in the first place, isn’t it?

They’d have to get their market share up to double-digits, first. I wonder if MS will allow them to do it.

My point is that some people (yourself included) seem to think that Microsoft is some evil monster who is bent on ruling the world and stripping our souls. It is simply a company that exists to make money.

Yup. It’s not enough to win, everyone else must lose. Your best interests are low on their list of priorities. A weasel can’t change its spots.

Ford… McDonalds… insurance companies… drug manufacture

None of those have managed to become convicted, anti-competitive predators. They can dream, though.
Y
YrbkMgr
Oct 4, 2003
They can dream, though.

<Laugh>
RH
r_harvey
Oct 5, 2003
Just for clarity, nobody is comparing Adobe with MS. Adobe lets you mention any other company, including links and product information–even if you say that you think somebody else’s product is better–and they let you debate it on their Web site, at their expense. That magnanimity is not common in this or any other industry.

I’d hate to think that MS was afraid that somebody else was trying compete by using their tactics.
DM
dave_milbut
Oct 5, 2003
I still fall back on Norton Commander, from 1990

🙂

I actually bought MS Windows 1.0.

I had something called "Windows 286". Remember that one?
RH
r_harvey
Oct 5, 2003
Dave,

You’re right, my first NC was dated 1986 (I bought it, and SideKick 1.5). But the cool NC version is 1.02. When they went to 2.0, well, that was just bloatware.

ncsplash.jpg, 57619 Bytes! I can recommend a program for optimizing image size for the Web. Like a 2-color GIF.
DM
dave_milbut
Oct 5, 2003
ncsplash.jpg, 57619 Bytes!

wow you’re right. i’ll fix that.

btw, the full app itself (nc.exe) is a grand total of 67,079 bytes!

there. that should be better.
RB
Robert_Barnett
Oct 5, 2003
Myself I agree with Segen,

I would rather have options than super stability. But, I also have to say that Windows XP has been rock solid for me. Before Windows XP because of installing and removing over 30 programs a week for review I would have to format and reinstall Windows at least once per month. I haven’t had to do this with Windows XP in 2 years.

What does get me is all the security holes, but alls you have to do is be smart about your e-mail and online activities and your fine. I am ever so amazed at the number of people that will open an attachment from someone they don’t know. Or the number of people that don’t keep Windows patched and the Virii program updated.

As for the Mac, well I think it has a nicer looking interface. But, with Apple moving in to everyone’s market and causing companies like Adobe not to update programs for the Mac in these areas because of Apple’s own software, plus the control the have over the hardware and what you can and can’t buy I don’t think Apple is any better a monopoly the Microsoft. The difference is they don’t have the market share they no one sees them as a threat.

The one thing that would drive me up the wall with the Mac is the fact that programs do not have a back board. Meaning you open something like Photoshop and everything under it shows through it. That would drive me batty in no time. Also, some things are just not as user friendly or more convoluted. But that comes down to what you know.

Me I will stick with a PC. I may not have a choice over operating system, but then you don’t have a lot of choice with the Mac. What I do get is being able to buy just about any hardware I want for my PC and have it work with Windows. That isn’t something you get with a Mac.

Robert
wrote in message
I don’t think that r_harvey is trolling. Many of us look wistfully at the
other side of the road from time to time, then realise how likely we are to get flattened while crossing it.
DM
dave_milbut
Oct 5, 2003
I am ever so amazed at the number of people that will open an attachment from someone they don’t know.

and scan every single attachement w/AV and the latest virus sigs even if it’s from someone you DO know!
KV
Klaas_Visser
Oct 6, 2003
and scan every single attachement w/AV and the latest virus sigs even if it’s from someone you DO know!

Have a look here < http://www.comics.com/comics/betty/archive/betty-20030925.ht ml>.
MA
Mark_Allen
Oct 6, 2003
Hi Guys

I’m sure we all appreciate the time and knowledge you are all sharing but surely this would be better off in the Photoshop Lounge. I think this is really Off-Topic

regards

Mark
RH
r_harvey
Oct 6, 2003
Is it worth moving to Windows XP in order to upgrade to Photoshop CS? Are there any issues about Windows XP, such as security or viruses, that might affect my purchase decision?
JJ
Jerry_Jensen
Oct 6, 2003
I have converted my 4 machines all to XP. I got tired of "blue Screens". Have not had one, repeat, not one problem since then. (I have to admit that my dual AMD cpu system running under XP professional does seem to have a memory allocation problem when it is running "Seti", but the blue screen of death is gone, entirely).

Well worth the upgrade for all software, much less just PhotoShop.
EL
Engilbert_Legaspi
Oct 7, 2003
Well, for one who has posted the topic, I’m rather surprise with the responses. I haven’t tried upgrading my 1 year old machine to XP, I would want to, but a lot of viruses and worms has been targeting W2000 and XP. A lot of my friends also went back to the old Win98 after having too many nightmares with XP.

But alas, a lot of people who responded has also enlightened me, for the fact that yes it would cost me alot of cash to switch on Mac especially on softwares.

It is already inevitable, If I want Photoshop CS (and I do want one!) I have to embrace XP!

Thanks guys!
DM
dave_milbut
Oct 7, 2003
don’t sweat it engelbert. it’s a smooth transition and you’ll notice the stability right away. some tips:

* format and install on a CLEAN partition, not over top of an existing win9x/me os. this is most important. you’ll save yourself TONS of headaches if you take the time to do this!

To avoid trojans/viruses:
* get a good software (if not hardware) firewall. <http://www.zonelabs.com> has free ZoneAlarm. It’s a great program. Takes about a week to "train", and you’re pretty much done.

* get a good antivirus program (I recommend Symantec/Norton) and update the virus definitions at least weekly. Better yet, set it to automatic and you’ll get them as soon as they’re released.

* NEVER open an attachment in an e-mailfrom someone you don’t know.

* ALWAYS scan attachments before opening even from people you do know! (This is SUPER IMPORTANT as a lot of viruses mask themselves by sending from a "trusted source" like a friend or microsoft!) ALWAYS scan before running!!! Some mail servers on the web (yahoo for example) let you scan before you download. Norton has the option to right click on an attachment – once you downloaded it and before you run it – and select "Scan for viruses" before you run it.

* Check windows updates every week (or let it run automatically, which is the default) and make sure you install all updates from the "critical" section. You can use your own discretion when installing things from the "recommended updates" or "driver updates" sections. But anything in the "Critical" section is a must-have.

* Finally, do yourself a favor. Please consider running something othere that Internet Explorer (web browser) and Outlook Express (mail/news reader). Those to programs are virus holes!

Mozilla and Netscape: <http://www.mozilla.org> and <http://www.netscape.com> have excellent free browsers with great newsreaders. I recommend Mozilla. I love it. It’s fast, clean, blocks unwanted ads, popups and cookies, has tabbed browsing and too many features to list. Netscape has the same but is actually built on the Mozilla engine. I figure just go to the source.

Opera is another great browser but that costs ($30?).

Any of these will go a long way towards keeping you free from being infected by trojans/worms/viruses that spread via holes in MS’s applications.

good luck. dave
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 7, 2003
A couple of things to add to Dave’s excellent comments

The upgrade to XP is a piece of cake. You don’t even need to format your harddrive, just set you computer to boot to the CD drive and put the XP installation CD in the drive. Allow the installer to delete the active Windows partition and then add it back. The partition will then be automatically formatted and Windows will be installed.

Back up all your data before you do anything and make sure you have your Win98 CD handy for upgrade verification as well as all appropriate drivers.

I do however disagree with the assessment of Outlook and IE. I use both and as long as you keep Norton AV up to date and download all the Windows security updates you should be very safe. I’ve been running Win2K and WinXP for over two years. I’ve yet to be infected but I do get the occassional warning from Norton AV the a website or incoming e-mai is infected.

Bob (who despite the above uses Netscape for newgroups <g>)
DM
dave_milbut
Oct 7, 2003
you should be very safe

that’s a relative term! 🙂
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 7, 2003
that’s a relative term! 🙂

Well, yeah. <g>

Bob
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 7, 2003
I’d be careful of any autoupdate, though. Something goes wrong with a program you haven’t used in a week or two, and you don’t have a clue what’s changed on your system. That puts you back to ground zero, reinstalling everything and checking, each time.
RL
Robert_Levine
Oct 7, 2003
I never use auto update. If it looks like anything major you can set a restore point manually so if anything goes wrong you can restore the system.

Bob
DE
david_evanson
Oct 7, 2003
I think Auto-update creates a restore point before it installs the updates. The restore point feature seems to work really well in XP – it has saved me from reinstalls/restore from backup a few times. So if you have plenty of HD space I would strongly recommend enabling it.
TS
Tim_Spragens
Oct 7, 2003
XP and W2000 do leave a trail, and possibly a pile of junk on your OS partition, but at least you’ve got the bread crumbs. If someone sets *everything* for auto-update, sorting the culprit is… messy.
JH
Jeffrey H Rediger
Nov 5, 2003
Unless you want to deal with XP’s activation hassles also, I’d say go with W2K.
IL
Ian_Lyons
Nov 5, 2003
I’ve no particular love for the XP interface (thank goodness it can be sanitised) but there are a number of significant fixes in XP that make it a MUCH better option for Photoshop CS.
Y
YrbkMgr
Nov 5, 2003
Well, the move for me, when that day comes, will be XP Pro. It makes the most sense. If I have to submit to Photoshop activation anyway, then OS activation is a moot point. Besides, I never had a problem with OS Activation, since it is rare that a user requires portability of an OS – an application is a different matter though.
RL
Robert_Levine
Nov 5, 2003
Unless you want to deal with XP’s activation hassles also, I’d say go with W2K.

What hassles would that be? BTW, I think Tony intends to buy new hardware also. FWIW, Dell computers ship with versions of WinXP that do not require activation even when reistalling the O/S. I’m not sure about the other OEMs.

Bob

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