CS4 details on Adobe’s web site

JJ
Posted By
John Joslin
Sep 23, 2008
Views
2278
Replies
100
Status
Closed
JW
John_Waller
Sep 23, 2008
Anybody thinking "Wow!" yet?


Regards

John Waller
JJ
John Joslin
Sep 23, 2008
As expected, Photoshop 7 has dropped off the upgrade eligibility list.
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 23, 2008
Yeah "WOW", glad I didn’t get CS3.
DE
Dave_Evanson
Sep 23, 2008
And as expected the UK are paying more in ยฃ than the US in $ ๐Ÿ™ Example to upgrade from CS2 to Design Premium US= $599 and for the UK ยฃ605.12
CH
CR_Henderson
Sep 23, 2008
A better page to go to is:

<http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/family/>

The page listed in the original post leads one to believe that there is only one version of Photoshop CS4–the standard version–when there are two just as there were in CS3.
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
glad I didn’t get CS3.

so now you can get cs3 for free when you wait for cs4 to ship? didn’t see that mentioned.

am i missing something or is there only one verion? (not cs4 standard and cs4 extended?) if only one, i’m really glad they listened to customers on this! still, 200 bux. guess that’s better than 300 for the "extended" edition. you should get a rebate if you bought THAT hooey. ๐Ÿ˜›

wait a second. is this available NOW?!! ๐Ÿ™‚

hmmm… doens’t look like many neat new features though.

< http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/photoshop/upgrade/?v iew=compare>
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
ya, i see "preorder" now. when’s it ship?
CH
CR_Henderson
Sep 23, 2008
dave milbut:am i missing something or is there only one verion? (not cs4 standard and cs4 extended?) if only one, i’m really glad they listened to customers on this! still, 200 bux. guess that’s better than 300 for the "extended" edition. you should get a rebate if you bought THAT hooey. wait a second. is this available NOW?!!

Ships on or about Oct 14. There are two versions see this page (as I posted just above your first post):

<http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/family/>

and it’s still $349 for CS4 Extended upgrade.
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
the non-destructive editing looks good. if it’s very much better than what’s already there… i hope the "adjustment" and "masks" panels are better done than the artistic filter panel. i hate that thing.

better depth of field tools. that’s good for me, a non-pro photographer. ๐Ÿ™‚

I notice we still have activation. so once again the pirates get a free ride while we have to put up with jumping through hoops.

still for 200 bux, like i said, it beats the 300 bux for extended they took last time!

what’s the actual release date? still didn’t come across that…
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
garrrr! fu&#$ers! ๐Ÿ™

thanks cr.
JS
John_Schwaller
Sep 23, 2008
The question I have is why is the upgrade to PS CS4 Extended $349 (USA) the same if you are coming from CS3 or CS3 Extended.

One would think that if one paid a premium last time for buying CS3 extended, that the upgrade should be less.

John
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
The question I have is why is the upgrade to PS CS4 Extended $349 (USA) the same if you are coming from CS3 or CS3 Extended.

yup. i’m thinking of waiting this one out. maybe i’ll get a new hobby and learn illustrator! ๐Ÿ™‚
DM
Don_McCahill
Sep 23, 2008
Sucky web pages. Dear Adobe, do not use white text with a thin font on a black background. It may be cool and edgy, but it is also unreadable, at least on my monitor.

I may upgrade after I find a page I can read.
JJ
John Joslin
Sep 23, 2008
Sucky web pages

I hope you told them in the questionnaire they popped up. I did ย– I gave mainly 1s and 2s out of 10.
BL
Bob Levine
Sep 23, 2008
yup. i’m thinking of waiting this one out.

Sure you are. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Bob
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
curse you! ๐Ÿ˜› ๐Ÿ™‚
J
jcates
Sep 23, 2008
And it looks like all the hoopla and speculation and hopes and desires were for naught… I don’t see 64-bit anywhere.
CH
CR_Henderson
Sep 23, 2008
jcates:And it looks like all the hoopla and speculation and hopes and desires were for naught… I don’t see 64-bit anywhere.

Not for the MACs, but it is there for Windows. Read the FAQ:

< http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/photoshop/faq/?promo id=DRHXB>
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 23, 2008
I just finished the ‘brilliant’ cast and the new CS4 shows a lot of potential if you believe the points shown. I am actually going to buy the full version of CS4 Master Suite when it is available (so I can fall back if I need too). It looks like it can fulfill my thoughts. It has been very frustrating as an artist that ‘puters could never work as fast as I think, this seems to be a possibility, but you cannot believe everything you see. I still think it would be a good ‘jumping off’ point for my video/poetry/photo work.

I will finally get my work out of the boxes after moving/renovating to fulfill my creative vision (after the near death operations on my body). Looking forward to this. Yeah, yeah, I got the box for it. Think this could be my creative confluence. (Says as he winks). Get back to ‘ya on that.

I am turning 39 (for the sixteenth time) today. I am gazing at my deformed navel and doing a yearly retrospective. Yee haw!
J
jcates
Sep 23, 2008
Not for the MACs, but it is there for Windows. Read the FAQ:

Curious they don’t make any mention of that in the sysreqs. Makes me wonder which one’s true and how will it affect the Suites.

but you cannot believe everything you see

Like Illy’s much-touted-by-Adobe Live Trace feature.
X
xgman
Sep 23, 2008
Amazon shows a Nov 7th release date on all pre-orders.
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
happy birthday mr. awe!!! ๐Ÿ™‚
one day off from mine, eh? cheers!

and lay off the sauce! ok, lay off the sauce tomorrow! ๐Ÿ™‚
J
jcates
Sep 23, 2008
My guess is that if this was Mac and Windows they’d be making a much bigger deal out of it.

Because heaven forbid it should get out that an app available for both Mac and Windows has a key feature only available for Windows.
BL
Bob Levine
Sep 23, 2008
Still thinking of skipping it? <g>

Bob
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
maybe. ๐Ÿ™‚
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 23, 2008
What? What? What? The hot sauce? Gotti bite the dog back!
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
damn. content aware scaling looks sweet.
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 23, 2008
The whole integration looks sweet! Possibly.
RP
Russell_Proulx
Sep 23, 2008
Just curious. If one has signed an NDA with Adobe for the CS4 beta, at what point can one speak freely?

Russell
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
from jack’s blog:

(The term "panel" now replaces "palette" throughout the Suite.)

ah’m’a still callin’ it palette! dang gubbit! XD
JT
John_T_Smith
Sep 23, 2008
It has been a long time since I was a Beta test person (Central Point Software, that was bought out by Symantec) but as I remember, the NDA said "something like" no discussion until the product was officially released
RM
Rick Moore
Sep 23, 2008
I’m an AutoCAD beta tester and we’re allowed to discuss the features as soon as they’re announced.
BTW, thank you Adobe for letting me skip CS3 and purchase the CS4 upgrade for the same price. Autodesk charges twice as much for the upgrade as punishment for skipping a release.
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
Central Point Software, that was bought out by Symantec

whoo doggie! that’s going back! pc tools eh? the old norton utilities pwned them! ๐Ÿ™‚

I’d be happier if i got a discount to purchase cs4 ee as a cs3 ee owner over cs3 standard owners.
MV
Mathias_Vejerslev
Sep 23, 2008
Just curious. If one has signed an NDA with Adobe for the CS4 beta, at what point can one speak freely?

The NDA expires today.
J
jcates
Sep 23, 2008
ah’m’a still callin’ it palette! dang gubbit! XD

Yeah, I’ve been calling them palettes (because that’s what they called them, too) for many years now. Just calling it something else doesn’t change what it is… unless they plan to introduce ‘tongue’ as a sister feature to ‘liquify’ and later change to palette to eliminate the creepiness factor.
MV
Mathias_Vejerslev
Sep 23, 2008
Well I’d say the look and functionality has changed so much this time around that ‘Tab’ is actually a much better description than ‘Palette’.
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
CR Henderson, where did you see ships on or about oct 14th? i’m missing it still. amazon says nov. 7th.
CF
chris_farrell
Sep 23, 2008
So do they release the trials before the release date?

Will upgrade, but it would be great to see the wows before the $$$ are parted.
J
jcates
Sep 23, 2008
…that ‘Tab’ is actually a much better description than ‘Palette’.

For those that are indeed tabs, yes. The production apps have pretty much already done away with palettes and replaced them with what actually are panels (known as windows back in the pre-Win95 days). If the palettes still exist in the other apps and they’re just renaming them so we can get used to them not being there in future releases, well that’s just stupid.

When I can actually see the software instead of in a skipping streaming (not live) video, I’ll make judgments.
JJ
John Joslin
Sep 23, 2008
So do they release the trials before the release date?

It’s normally quite a while after the release date. For obvious reasons.
PH
Phil_Holland
Sep 23, 2008
One thing I’ve been asking for and don’t know if it’s possible, but with the new custom flash panels will I have the ability to have an "always on" full color picker?

I’d love for this to be implemented, but don’t know if it’s possible yet.
BL
Bob Levine
Sep 23, 2008
InDesign has a Kuler panel. I haven’t seen the other apps, yet.

Bob
CF
chris_farrell
Sep 23, 2008
it’s normally quite a while after the release date. For obvious reasons.

AH!, Yes, that makes sense…Shame we have to wait because of the big P.
CT
cs_todd
Sep 23, 2008
Ok.. I have a question. I went and got the "Extended" version of CS3, and have never used one "Extended" feature. Kicking myself for that.

Can I upgrade to the regular ol’ CS4, or do I have to pay the $349 and go from CS3 "Extended" to CS4 "Extended"? The "Upgrade Paths" seems to imply that’s the case.

I hope I didn’t lock myself into an "extended-only" upgrade path..
CT
cs_todd
Sep 23, 2008
Ugh. NOT pleased. Just called Adobe. CS3 Extended -> CS4 is NOT possible. They consider it a "downgrade". Lousy. So, if you’ve got CS3 Extended, you’re stuck with Extended, and have to pay the $349 to upgrade.
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
according to this:
<http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/photoshop/upgrade/>

You have
Adobe Photoshop CS3, CS2, or CS

You want
Adobe Photoshop CS4

You pay US$199

there’s no differentiation between cs3 standard or ee. guess we’ll have to wait and see…
CF
chris_farrell
Sep 23, 2008
Adobe should be more flexible especially if you find you don’t use the Extended features…shame on them
AC
Andrew_Curatola
Sep 23, 2008
Anybody interested in the ship date of CS4, I just ordered Photoshop CS4 from Adobe via telephone, upgrade ($199) and was told I should receive it between 5 to 7 days.

Andrew
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
Is this written anywhere?

dunno. call. i did with illy cs2 and got cs3 for free (shipping costs). but i’d rather do it over hte phone.
JJ
John Joslin
Sep 23, 2008
So, if you’ve got CS3 Extended, you’re stuck with Extended, and have to pay the $349 to upgrade.

When CS3 came out I took a good look at those additional features in the extended version and decided I would rarely, if ever, use them. So I’m laughing now.

Some people went for top-of-the-range automatically I guess! B)
BL
Bob Levine
Sep 23, 2008
Are you sure you bought CS4 and not CS3?

Bob
CF
chris_farrell
Sep 23, 2008
Although CS4 extended features seem to be more usable than CS3’s
BL
Bob Levine
Sep 23, 2008
Some people went for top-of-the-range automatically I guess! B)

Paging Mr. Milbut!

Bob
CH
CR_Henderson
Sep 23, 2008
dave milbut:CR Henderson, where did you see ships on or about oct 14th? i’m missing it still. amazon says nov. 7th.

After placing your order you can go to the order page. Approximate dates are shown there. For CS4 and CS4e it is shown as Oct 14. This is for the download version. I don’t know if it applies to the boxed version.
BL
Bob Levine
Sep 23, 2008
From the FAQs:

What are the advantages of 64-bit computing?

In early testing of 64-bit support in Photoshop for Windowsยฎ, overall performance gains ranged from 8% to 12%. Those who work with extremely large files may realize noticeably greater gains in performance, in some cases as dramatic as ten times the previous speed. This is because 64-bit applications can address larger amounts of memory and thus result in less file swapping ย— one of the biggest factors that can affect data processing speed

My guess is that if this was Mac and Windows they’d be making a much bigger deal out of it.

Bob
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
Some people went for top-of-the-range automatically I guess!

yea, when we bought photoshop 6 (or wherever you started).

After placing your order you can go to the order page. Approximate dates are shown there. For CS4 and CS4e it is shown as Oct 14. This is for the download version. I don’t know if it applies to the boxed version.

cool. i’m thinking about ordering… ๐Ÿ™‚

Although CS4 extended features seem to be more usable than CS3’s

ya
CT
cs_todd
Sep 23, 2008
Agreed.. But I asked twice. Their explanation: Even though the "version number" has changed, EE to Non-EE is considered a "downgrade" since the regular version is a "lower" product.

The guy equated it to going from a CS3 suite to a single Photoshop CS4 – which still doesn’t jive with me.

Question then; if I order the upgrade, will it just not install if I have EE? I imagine if I do that I may be stuck with a useless $199 upgrade edition..
CT
cs_todd
Sep 23, 2008
Oh, and BTW.. I got CS3 Extended not for any particular reason, but bought it while I was in school with the edu discount.. Extended was the only version my school had. So, I really have zero need or want for the extended features, but looks like I may have to learn to like them :).
CH
CR_Henderson
Sep 23, 2008
cs todd:Question then; if I order the upgrade, will it just not install if I have EE? I imagine if I do that I may be stuck with a useless $199 upgrade edition..

Perhaps if CS3e is your only version–Adobe would have to answer that question and they are currently swamped. However, if you have an older version of Photoshop: CS or CS2 then you should be able to use that as an update starting point to go to CS4 standard.
RP
Russell_Proulx
Sep 23, 2008
I installed a dual-boot XP / Vista64 system w/ 8GB DDR2 RAM and I can confirm that CS4 is a *LOT faster* with the extra RAM and this new version of PS. Some performance tests (with large files) showed huge performance improvements. I’m talking about stuff that took over 4 minutes with CS3 and XP getting reduced to 30 seconds.

For PC folks I think this is a wonderful update which will allow us to catch up to what Mac users have enjoyed for quite a while -> ie: Making use of more than 2-3GB RAM with numerous applications open. And with CS4 having a 64bit option it adds even more benefit. I suspect many more folks will be putting together Vista64 systems, even if it’s only in a dual boot environment.

Asus ‘P5E Pro WS’ motherboard, QuadCore Q9300, 8GB DDR2 RAM -> It works fine. Dual booting XP and Vista64 with ‘BootIt NG’ (though I hear that Acronis sells a similar utility that also works well)

Russell
SF
Stu_Farnham
Sep 23, 2008
I’ve been riding the Photoshop upgrade train since PS7.0. I can no longer remember the language Adobe used for the CS3 upgrade, and I’m wondering:

I have PS7.0 full license.
I have PSCS3 upgrade.
Am I eligible for the PSCS4 upgrade?

TIA,

Stu
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 23, 2008
yup.
PP
Paul_Prachun
Sep 23, 2008
Dave: I think it’s called taxes. We don’t have ‘free’ medical health coverage!!
S
Silkrooster
Sep 23, 2008
Guys check out Adobe TV there are some excellent demo’s of the new features.
BL
Bob Levine
Sep 24, 2008
Since the trials are identical to the actual unrestricted versions I would expect to see them very shortly after the software ships.

In fact, this time around the trials are more flexible. You can download the suite and buy a serial number for just one app. Plug that in an only that one app will work.

Saves a bit of time on the uninstalling trials to install full versions.

Bob
RM
Rick Moore
Sep 24, 2008
If I buy the CS3 upgrade now from the store download I should be able able to get CS4 for free if it ships before 30 days, right? Is this written anywhere? The CS3 upgrade price from CS2 is $399 and the CS4 price is $499 – seems like a no-brainer now if this is true.
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Sep 24, 2008
Why bother dual boot Vista 64 and XP 64? The Vista is a far better program in 64 bit, IMO.
F
Freeagent
Sep 24, 2008
I’m looking at the Design Standard upgrade, and I notice that here in Norway the prices seem actually a little lower than the last time around, both full and upgrade. Not much (around 7 or 8%) but it’s the right direction.

One thing though. I have Photoshop CS3 full version and Suite "upsell". The way this works is that PS remains a separate installation with its own serial# and activation, separate from the rest of the suite.

Does anyone know whether, with this configuration, it would be possible to just upgrade PS and leave the rest of the suite at CS3? I know it’s not possible with a full suite, just wondering if I could save some…
CF
chris_farrell
Sep 24, 2008
I can confirm that CS4 is a *LOT faster* with the extra RAM and this new version of PS. Some performance tests (with large files) showed huge performance improvements. I’m talking about stuff that took over 4 minutes with CS3 and XP getting reduced to 30 seconds.

This is sweet music to my ears……I need CS4 now
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 24, 2008
They seem to have lowered the upgrade cost by $400, so I will be upgrading to CS4 Master Collection. Looking forward to this.
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 24, 2008
they’re making up for it on the low end.
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 24, 2008
Well this is cool, skip an upgrade cycle and they lower the price.
MV
Mathias_Vejerslev
Sep 24, 2008
More like, the non-US end. You guys are spoiled beyond all reason!
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 24, 2008
Nah, I’m Canadian, everybody likes us.
JC
john_crookes
Sep 24, 2008
Yes it may be faster but they are putting the screws to those of us that paid the higher upgrade fee for cs3 extended now they are giving the same upgrade to cs4 extended for the same upgrade price to those with cs3 extended. In other words we have to pay a premium twice for the same product .

Just does not seam fair and I do not think I will upgrade and in fact use a lot more of Capture NX insted
DM
Don_McCahill
Sep 24, 2008
Addicts always get screwed by their dealers. Those of us with the patience to skip a release will always come out ahead. (And if you are clever, and buy CS3 this month, you will probably get an upgrade free, allowing you to claim you have all the versions).

As for the Oct 14/Nov 7 question, my guess on this is that they will start to release it on OCt 14, but are not guaranteeing you get it until Nov 7. Remember last time, when some addicts (I mean users) were claiming that they got theirs on one day, and other parts of the country didn’t get theirs for several more days? (Though I don’t think it was a three week delay. Maybe the rollout will be slower this time.)
J
jcates
Sep 24, 2008
Well, at work we had CS1 premium and I bought it for myself before work did. Then I upgraded to CS2 Premium and work languished until sometime after CS3 came out. My previous computer died and I never bothered with CS3 for myself, but I will likely get the CS4 suite now that I have a much better home system.

Just doesn’t seem normal for work to have better equipment and software than what I have at home. Got the better computer, just need the better software now. This and a new notebook and I’ll be set for a few years.
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 24, 2008
I think it is about ‘First Order In, First Order Out’. Your neighbour can get it one day while you wait another week or so.

As far as the price differences in Europe, the EU VAT on top of individual country taxes creates that difference (Denmark is a good example), while NAFTA gives me an advantage.
DT
Don_Temple
Sep 24, 2008
Is it available now or is it just a beta version?

Don
JJ
John Joslin
Sep 24, 2008
Answered in your other post.
DM
Don_McCahill
Sep 24, 2008
The beta happened long ago.
BL
Bob Levine
Sep 24, 2008
Thanks for inventing hockey. ๐Ÿ™‚

Bob
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 24, 2008
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 25, 2008
might be of interest to some:

VIDEO: Adobe introduces GPU acceleration to Creative Suite 4 < http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/604905/video-adobe-introduces -gpu-acceleration-to-creative-suite-4.html>
JJ
John Joslin
Sep 25, 2008
<cough, cough>
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 25, 2008
and Basketball (Steve Nash), Elements of Typography…..
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 26, 2008
Hmmmm, I noticed that they do not include Lightroom in the Master Collection, big oversight.
B
Buko
Sep 26, 2008
I’m Canadian, everybody likes us.

What about, Mothers Against Canada?
J
jcates
Sep 26, 2008
I’m Canadian, everybody likes us.

Except those of us in the deep south U.S. when you export your cold air via jet stream. We don’t like it when our "winters" get below 50 (except for a few days to get below freezing to kill the bugs… but only once a year! [<AlGore>and you haven’t done that for a few years</AlGore>]).
BC
Bart_Cross
Sep 26, 2008
Mothers Against Canada? Hmmmm, couldn’t be the group whose sons desert the armed forces down there. Anyways I don’t think you spelled Mothers right.

They love us down in the deep south, mmm-mmm, Eskimo pies!
DM
Don_McCahill
Sep 26, 2008
We get all our cold air from Alaska. We are just giving it back to you.
B
Buko
Sep 26, 2008
couldn’t be the group whose sons desert the armed forces down there.

All brought on by Terrance & Phillip in Not Without My Anus
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Sep 26, 2008
Exchanging hot air for cold, ‘eh?
J
jcates
Sep 26, 2008
Cold Terrence & Phillip action is even worse.
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 30, 2008
re: continued DRM and activation in cs4. the assault on legitimate users…

<http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/9/29/>

The business model of putting bits in a box and charging to experience said tasty bits is forever broken. Furthermore, to prevent the copying of bits is futile and ultimately destructive to the goal of any modern digital business, which is to conscript enthusiastic ‘users’, and from them, customers.

DRM takes a big poo on your best customers — the ones who’ve given you money — whilst doing nothing practical to prevent others from ‘stealing’ your precious content juices. Worse, it makes these renegades feel nice and righteous about sticking it to ‘the man’. Stop trying to persuade people to love you more by hitting them a rusty pipe. Put down the pipe, and give up on DRM.

Daniel James has a presence which extends somewhat beyond the borders of his person, so that when you meet him it seems like you are having a Very Real Experience. As a game designer and a CEO (in that order), his company Three Rings is known for putting out incredibly quirky shi[*].

Who Said DRM Is Necessary For Video Games? Not According To These Execs… <http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080929/0058322394.shtml>
DM
dave_milbut
Sep 30, 2008
Re: Anyone remember Westwood by Ima Fish – Sep 29th, 2008 @ 1:26pm

I think the difference between now and then is that game companies became legitimate businesses and hired a bunch of MBAs and lawyers who are trying to drain as much profit from their customers as possible. Destroying their businesses in the process.

A game programer thinks, "My new game is awesome. I want people to play it. I’m going to release it as shareware in hopes they’ll buy the full copy."

The MBAer thinks, "Why aren’t we charging for the shareware versions?"

And of course the new corporate lawyer thinks, "Why aren’t we suing our customers?!"
RM
Rick Moore
Sep 30, 2008
FYI, I bought 2 upgrades from Creative Suite Standard 2 to Creative Suite Standard 3.3 last week for $399 and was able to get a free upgrade to Creative Suite Standard 4 by calling customer support this morning, they didn’t even mention shipping costs. Quite a deal, gives us access to InDesign 3 and saved $100 each on upgrades to CS4.
D
ddd
Oct 31, 2008
On Sep 23, 7:14ย am, wrote:
I just finished the ‘brilliant’ cast and the newCS4shows a lot of potential if you believe the points shown. I am actually going to buy the full version ofCS4Master Suite when it is available (so I can fall back if I need too). It looks like it can fulfill my thoughts. It has been very frustrating as an artist that ‘puters could never work as fast as I think, this seems to be a possibility, but you cannot believe everything you see. I still think it would be a good ‘jumping off’ point for my video/poetry/photo work.

I will finally get my work out of the boxes after moving/renovating to fulfill my creative vision (after the near death operations on my body). Looking forward to this. Yeah, yeah, I got the box for it. Think this could be my creative confluence. (Says as he winks). Get back to ‘ya on that.

I am turning 39 (for the sixteenth time) today. I am gazing at my deformed navel and doing a yearly retrospective. Yee haw!

Download Adobe CS4 for free http://www.filedownloadfull.com

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