Thanks for the correction on how to measure leading. In this case I was using Point Type instead of Paragraph Type, but it didn’t seem to matter since the results were the same. Are you saying the two should be different when adjusting leading?
Below is an example screenshot zoomed in at 500% to help visualize what I’m talking about. I created the same file in both Photoshop CS for Windows and Photoshop CS4 for Mac. I used Lucida Sans, Roman, 12 pt, aliased, 20 pt leading. I also included horizontal rules spaced out by 20 px. When I check the pixel height for the leading on the Mac/CS4 side (left) via the Info panel, it comes out to either 26 or 27 px. The Windows/CS side (right) comes out to 20 px.
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http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/darthsauce/mac/mac_wi n_leading.gif>
Your problem stems from the fact that you are still confusing Points with Pixels.
You specified your 12 pt Text and 20 pt Leading in POINTS and the spacing of your Rules as 20 PIXELS.
Go back to that experiment that I asked you to do a few weeks ago and work through it again until you understand it.
You could try using Faux Underscores or by creating a table in Illustrator or InDesign but if this Text is for a web site, you really should be doing this in html anyway.
Your problem stems from the fact that you are still confusing Points with Pixels.
You specified your 12 pt Text and 20 pt Leading in POINTS and the spacing of your Rules as 20 PIXELS.
Ok, forget the rules… that may be confusing the matter. My point is that I expected the lines to be equidistant from each other (this is the case for Photoshop CS on Windows). If you have a sec, would you please try this experiment?
1) Create a new image
2) Create a text layer
3) Set your type to Lucida Sans, Regular, 12 pt, 20 pt leading (kerning, tracking, vertical and horizontal scales, baseline shift, etc. should all be set to their defaults)
4) Type about 10 lines of text with a carriage return after each line
Are the lines of text equidistant from each other?
Go back to that experiment that I asked you to do a few weeks ago and work through it again until you understand it.
I went back and took a pretty thorough look at my previous threads and did a search for your posts, but I couldn’t find this experiment you’re referring to. Is it possible you suggested this to someone else?
You could try using Faux Underscores; or creating a table in Illustrator or InDesign; but if this Text is for a web site, you really should be doing this in html anyway.
Thanks, but the horizontal rules were just for reference here. I’m not creating simple text links.
2) Create a text layer 3) Set your type to Lucida Sans, Regular, 12 pt,
20 pt leading (kerning, tracking, vertical and horizontal scales, baseline shift, etc. should all be set to their defaults) 4) Type about 10 lines of text with a carriage return after each line
Are the lines of text equidistant from each other?
Baseline to baseline? Absolutely they are!
But I am using Paragraph Text with the whole Type box set for 12/20.
Just as a test, try it with Faux Underscores and then measure the distances because I don’t think that you can be seeing the true Baseline of the font at the moment.
Also, check your Paragraph Panel if you are inserting Carriage Returns because you may have extra space set for insertion before or after each paragraph?
I couldn’t find this experiment you’re referring to. Is it possible you suggested this to someone else?
VERY!
8/
But I will try to find it for you if I have time later.
Here you are (it WAS in someone else’s thread!):
Mark Alsip, "Horizontal and vertical type tool bugs" #, 1 Mar 2009 8:06 pm </webx?14>
The experiment is at #11
Paragraph spacing, curse you!! Awesome, I set it back to zero and it solves my problem. Thanks so much! 🙂
See this is what happens when people do not bother to learn their craft and how the personal computer and GUI has changed the idea of what you need to know or understand in order to do the job correctly.
It also points out why it was so hard for season pros to make the transition to the computer when every who knew how to use a computer and wrote books about either knew nothing about the craft or simply wanted to sell more books and over looked the inadequate knowledge of the user. So they never referenced books hat were not computer oriented where the real knowledge was to be had.
Since leading is a little different then it use to be I think it is time to develop type setting environments that lock out the possibility of making errors such as web based setting, print set leading, and video based settings. It seems logical.
BTW in the past for the user or own interest leading was not base line to base line it was from slug to slug. 12/12 was not actually what you might think it was depending on the size of the actual slug which actually varied from Type face to Type Face and font to font.
Type Face is an old fashion term these days.
I think there should be a new look at this s most users really do not understand what they are doing and when you point out their mistake they think you are crazy and how could that be since they have no experience with the development of especially print and typography.
"See this is what happens when people do not bother to learn their craft and how the personal computer and GUI has changed the idea of what you need to know or understand in order to do the job correctly."
Thanks Wade. It takes a good 15 years of experience to begin to accumulate knowledge of the graphics trade. Many here are just on the first teething stages of chewing on subjects that are quite deep – because they need hands-on experience to help teach.
Very frustrating reading this thread, I couldn’t make it through and skipped to the bottom. Ann, you have the patience of an angel.
v6 needs to get a real name.
The halo gets a a bit rusty though and in serious need of some WD40.
although I didn’t dare to mention the fact that a 72-points/6 pica "Printer’s Inch" is only 0.9961075 of a standard American inch.
This page from a project that I worked on a long time ago (and never got finished or published!) might be of interest;
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http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1dI95HfSh1i7x7FCWl eLF06ASvFB50>
All three Typefaces are of the same nominal 72-point size but notice how differently they fill their allotted 72-point space; and how the position of their Baseline Position differs from the Traditional Baseline.
I don’t get it, am I not allowed to ask questions and work with others to get help on issues? Do I have to know everything about Photoshop, photography, typography, design theory, etc. before posting anything? Have I been offensive to others or exhibited bad netiquette? Honestly, I’d like to know because I certainly didn’t come into this simply to annoy folks.
I’m new to CS4, fairly new to Macs (my last one was a G3 years ago), and I don’t deal specifically with photography as part of my normal work load. But I’ve worked with Photoshop since the mid-90’s, first as a hobby and now as one of my main tools. I probably work with PS at a very low level compared to you guys but it’s something I’m used to.
Wade, I’d absolutely love to be as knowledgeable as you and some of the other folks on here, but I just happen to have different priorities and a slower level of learning when it comes to this. I also don’t have the academic background you probably have with photography or design. Again, does this mean I don’t have the right to ask questions and discover things on the forums?
Ken, please explain why you’re so frustrated with this thread and why you didn’t even bother to read through. Would you appreciate less detail when I try to explain my situation and to be more vague?
Back to the original topic, I thought it was an issue with Photoshop’s leading but it turned out to be the paragraph spacing which was a mistake on my part. I’m very grateful to Ann for helping me identify this.
v,
Do I have to know everything about Photoshop, photography, typography, design theory, etc. before posting anything?
No, of course not. But unfortunately with the way computerization has completely changed this business, oftentimes the designer can’t be content to just sit at a drawing board and design. Today’s designer has to learn and properly implement the skills of designer, copywriter/editor, research librarian, photographer, photo retoucher, typographer, mechanical/paste-up artist, paper specifier, copy camera and darkroom operator, color separator, stripper, marketing, client liaison, bookkeeper, businessman, etc., etc. It ain’t all Magic Markers, India ink and rubber cement anymore.
I also don’t have the academic background you probably have with photography or design.
I highly recommend taking some courses, such as Lynda.com’s, attend evening classes, etc. Read. And practice. And ask followup in the forums for anything that’s not clear.
Neil
v6v6v6 – This forum can be a bit rough and tumble at times, don’t take it personally. I didn’t really see any problem with your question and I’m glad for you that Ann answered it, she does that A LOT. Learn how to use PS help – it can answer a lot of your questions faster than anyone here.
I remember sitting there so mystified by Photoshop, it’s hard for me to criticize someone who asks an honest question. I sincerely hope I have not started a war – if so – I surrender in advance.
pbc
v6’s
Tat is not the point the point is that when one explains the problem and some one does not have the understanding of the circumstances because the available information has become eroded for lack or maintaining the foundation of knowledge then everyone suffers as you demonstrate for faulting me for your lac of knowledge and then expecting us to then alter reality to suit your needs.
It is a little unfair t say well I don’t have the time and desire to accumulate that experience but where can I buy it or better yet where can I download it for free? Huh?
We are just trying to make you aware that there is knowledge that you are missing and information that has for better or worse been deliberately with held from you and many users, that makes it difficult for s a person with more experience to explain to you the things you have to know in order to better understand the reality of what has become your way of doing things and why things are not quite working the way you expect it to work even though it seems logical to you that things should work a certain way.
There is a history that dictates that things either need to be update and or the older information has to be distributed in a much more worldly way and with a greater effort.
Or both.
We understand your confusion we ask you t make an effort to understand that we are telling something not related to hat makes sense to you but what has been developed
over a long period of time and that this transition is still going on and so it is a very powerful force for which you have to deal. It means you have to make more and effort then you want and probably less of an effort then we think you should make.
No one is blaming you it is simply the dynamics of change at work. I am just pointing it out.
But beware just because something does not seem t work logically to you that does not mean it is not logical.
BTW we all went through periods of learning were what we learnt in school and what the reality was all about had a dynamic impact on us.
I don’t get it, am I not allowed to ask questions and work with others to get help on issues?
Of course you are
that is the whole point of having these Forums!
What the others are indicating is that the advent of the computer has turned the Graphic Arts and Printing industries on their heads and we ALL now have to become experts in areas that once were the domain only of particular specialists.
In other words, we need to read books devoted to those special trades and skills (such as Typography) so that we learn to use the new tools more effectively.
Maybe v6 is good at making shiny things for those cutting their teeth on 15 years experience with… life.
Hear hear Paul. Paul Cutler, "Must Have Books/Videos" #56, 4 Mar 2009 8:59 pm </webx?14/55>
"Ken, please explain why you’re so frustrated with this thread and why you didn’t even bother to read through. Would you appreciate less detail when I try to explain my situation and to be more vague?"
I think you should use your real name to start. It puts us all on a first name basis and makes things more real, more worth reading through. Next, and in the same vein of thought really, maybe it would be better to be more on the level with what you want to know, would be to bring what you want to know into focus and not beat around the bush so much with details.
For instance, If you want to know why some type leading is different in than other type leading, even with the same point size of type – that would be a good question in itself, and gives more room for knowledgeable people to come in, and offer a mini-education on the subject that could really benefit you more than just trying to fix a rut you are stuck with. These forums are a powerhouse of knowledge, and I encourage you to approach them as such and learn the benefit of opening the doorway for answers to come to you. You have some great input here, and now you have even more information on how to get the best of what these forums have to offer.
Best,
Ken
In light of all this – may I add – which I should have in the linked post – Robert Bringhurst "The Elements of Typographical Style". Even a better start than Grid Systems, although they are definitely worth studying.
pbc
Someone suggested not taking it personally and I feel that’s sound advice. Thanks for your responses. All I can do is keep learning.
V6,
the problem with a forum is you can’t see anyones face or hear the tone of their voice so its easy to misconstrue the writers attitude (unless you have be interacting with them for a few years).
The other problem with a forum is that we who are trying to help don’t have a clue about your background. We don’t know if you are a complete nube who just decided to buy a computer and Photoshop and can’t be bothered to RTFM or you are an experienced veteran of Photoshop having a hard time with a new version.
this is from the Mac InDesign forum:
Before posting a new topic, consider:
1. InDesign’s comprehensive Help system is available to you on your computer. Check it out; you may find all you need there. Be prepared to be told to Read The Fine Manual (RTFM) if you skip this step.
2. Your topic might already be the subject of an active discussion. Try the forum search; the answer you need might already be posted.
3. Adobe offers a knowledgebase for InDesign; check this support page: InDesign Issues before posting.
4. Your forum topic will persist for weeks or months. Don’t blow-off the regulars by using an insulting or derogatory tone. Unlike gaffes in conversation, it’s not so easy to take back unwise words in a forum.
5. PLEASE indicate which version of InDesign you are using when you introduce a topic. Prefix your topics with "IDCS2", "IDCS" or "ID2" (or even "ID1.5")
to help eliminate confusion.
When you stop in here to ask a question the people who are trying to help you expect a certain level of learning from the person who needs help. I can recall many people coming here and asking how do you design a job, I took on this project 3 weeks ago now and its due tomorrow and I can’t figure out anything. Help!!!
The best answer for this would be hire someone who knows what they are doing.
So take some time, read, watch, take classes to give yourself a better background so you can interact better with the people who are trying to help you.
PS. I can’t believe I wrote a book, its so unlike me.
