Logo I created being used without payment

On 21 Oct 2005 19:12:26 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:

I have a problem and would appreciate some advice. A client hired me to build a website by implementing and editing a script and also to design a logo for his business to be used on the site and a business card. He wanted to pay in full after the job was complete. I told him I would do that, but needed a contract, and he agreed to sign it. I sent it to him but never got the signed copy back. I began working on the site in the meantime and foolishly spent a lot of time editing the script for him and designing logos.

He kept wanting to add things to the contract thus putting it back into negotiation stage. I needed the money which is why I kept working anyway…hoping to get the job done so I could get paid. Finally I told him I had to have the contract signed before work continued. the next day he said he couldn’t work on the job anymore and had to put it on the back burner for now. I took all of my work off his webhost, but he still had the logo that I designed. We live in different cities so I had to send it to him through email.

He switched webhosts, and put the logo I created on his website and is using it. He never paid me for any of my work and I don’t have a signed contract. I know I made a foolish mistake, but now am wondering if I have any legal recourse. I did some research and can register the logo for $30 with the Copyright Office in DC, but would I have any case for copyright infringement, since there was no contract in place?
All of our correspondance has been saved. Including my telling him the design is copyrighted by me until he pays for copyright ownership.

I don’t understand why you would want to bother copyrighting the logo. That might give you a basis for a lawsuit if he uses it, but you already have a basis for a lawsuit. Whether or not it is practical to bring a suit in either case is another story.

If you engage an attorney, it will cost you money unless the potential for damages is great enough that the attorney is willing to take the case on for a contingency fee. That doesn’t seem likely since value in question is not great enough for a lawyer to put in his time for about a third of the recovered amount.

You might get an order for the guy to stop using the logo, but that will be expensive for you. Good money after bad.

If you do get a judgement, that doesn’t mean you will collect the judgement amount. When you win a case, the court doesn’t hand you over the money. You still have to hope that the defendant pays up.

Your best bet seems to be small claims court where your outgo is just the filing fee. If you win, you’ll get a judgement and you might collect. Worst-case scenario is that you are just out the filing fee.

Second best-bet is to get an attorney to write a demanding letter insisting on payment. Most attorneys will do that for a small fee. The letter’s a bluff unless there is intent to bring suit, but it often works.

You should have had a written contract, but even a contract doesn’t assure that you will be paid. It just assures that you have a stronger case to recover if you are not paid. What you do have is an oral contract (it seems so, at least from what you’ve written), and that’s enforceable. Again, though, enforcing a contract doesn’t mean you will collect.

Your oral contract is weakened if there was not an amount agreed on for the logo. The whole idea of any contract is the mutual agreement by both parties on what will be done, and that includes what will be done in the way of payment. You can still claim some standard fee or hourly basis for determining the fee, but the case is weakened.

—

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

In article , tony_cooper213
@earthlink.net says…

On 21 Oct 2005 19:12:26 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:

[SNIP]

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

I’d agree with Tony. First, talk with your/an attorny. Explain the situation, and present your correspondence. A good attorny can then advise you as how to proceed. You may well incur a fee for this consultation, but it might save you time and money in the future. This attorney should also consul you as to whether the "letter" is the best route (can’t hurt and only costs a few $’s), small-claims court (BTW are you in US?), or actual legal action.

Also, you have just learned why a FAX is almost the most important part of a business – do always get the signed contract BEFORE doing any work, but I think you already know that.

Sorry for your problem, but it is quite common, whether design, artwork, photos, whatever.

Hunt

"bethanyann" wrote in message

I have a problem and would appreciate some advice. A client hired me to build a website by implementing and editing a script and also to design a logo for his business to be used on the site and a business card. He wanted to pay in full after the job was complete. I told him I would do that, but needed a contract, and he agreed to sign it. I sent it to him but never got the signed copy back. I began working on the site in the meantime and foolishly spent a lot of time editing the script for him and designing logos.

He kept wanting to add things to the contract thus putting it back into negotiation stage. I needed the money which is why I kept working anyway…hoping to get the job done so I could get paid. Finally I told him I had to have the contract signed before work continued. the next day he said he couldn’t work on the job anymore and had to put it on the back burner for now. I took all of my work off his webhost, but he still had the logo that I designed. We live in different cities so I had to send it to him through email.

He switched webhosts, and put the logo I created on his website and is using it. He never paid me for any of my work and I don’t have a signed contract. I know I made a foolish mistake, but now am wondering if I have any legal recourse. I did some research and can register the logo for $30 with the Copyright Office in DC, but would I have any case for copyright infringement, since there was no contract in place?
All of our correspondance has been saved. Including my telling him the design is copyrighted by me until he pays for copyright ownership.

Hi there.

You have been ripped off, and it seems like it was done in quite a calculated way.

The Logo is your copyright until you agree to let it be used.

I doubt if it would be advisable to get involved with the real rip-off merchants – Lawers – in order to recover what may well be a fairly small sum.

You could send sufficient copies of the corres, to establish your ownership, to his Website Host, and ask them to desist from infringing your copyright. It might not work, but it could cause him some problems, and let you feel a bit better.

Roy G

On 21 Oct 2005 19:12:26 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:

He switched webhosts, and put the logo I created on his website and is using it. He never paid me for any of my work
All of our correspondance has been saved. Including my telling him the design is copyrighted by me until he pays for copyright ownership.

As others have correctly pointed out, you own the copyright and you can prove it in court. But in order to do this, you have to be willing to sue.

In order to sue successfully, you will have to show your lawyer the potential for a settlement that’s either fast & easy or really big — or else your lawyer will just charge you by the hour until you run out of money.

Registering your copyright will allow you to claim punitive damages of up to $100,000 per violation. Otherwise, you are limited to actual damages, this being the amount he would have paid you for the design. For this reason, registering helps you by allowing a big enough settlement to convince a lawyer to take it on contingency. It also helps you by scaring your dishonest client into paying you. Registering is cheap and easy. Do it now.

One other note: Don’t use your family lawyer. Be sure to hire a lawyer in your state who specializes in copyrights. You will find plenty of help in newsgroups for graphics artists, freelance writers, and professional photographers.

Good luck,

Jim Hargan
Freelance Photographer and Writer
www.harganonline.com

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:37:25 GMT, Jim Hargan
wrote:

On 21 Oct 2005 19:12:26 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:

He switched webhosts, and put the logo I created on his website and is using it. He never paid me for any of my work
All of our correspondance has been saved. Including my telling him the design is copyrighted by me until he pays for copyright ownership.

As others have correctly pointed out, you own the copyright and you can prove it in court. But in order to do this, you have to be willing to sue.
In order to sue successfully, you will have to show your lawyer the potential for a settlement that’s either fast & easy or really big — or else your lawyer will just charge you by the hour until you run out of money.

Registering your copyright will allow you to claim punitive damages of up to $100,000 per violation. Otherwise, you are limited to actual damages, this being the amount he would have paid you for the design. For this reason, registering helps you by allowing a big enough settlement to convince a lawyer to take it on contingency. It also helps you by scaring your dishonest client into paying you. Registering is cheap and easy. Do it now.

One other note: Don’t use your family lawyer. Be sure to hire a lawyer in your state who specializes in copyrights. You will find plenty of help in newsgroups for graphics artists, freelance writers, and professional photographers.

Good advice, but the poster shouldn’t get too excited until she determines that the person who stiffed her at least has the ability to pay, or assets to go after, any amount larger than a standard payment for logo design. Getting a judgement and collecting a judgement are two different things. Otherwise, she’s just looking for leverage to collect the normal fee.

Lawyers are pretty smart people. They’re not emotional about a case. They only take on cases where it’s obvious there’s money to be gained, and if the person being sued doesn’t have it, they expect the client to come up with it. That’s not intended as a criticism of lawyers, by the way. They want paid for their services just like the graphic artist does.

Good luck,

Jim Hargan
Freelance Photographer and Writer
www.harganonline.com

—

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:17:12 GMT, Tony Cooper wrote:

Good advice, but the poster shouldn’t get too excited until she determines that the person who stiffed her at least has the ability to pay, or assets to go after, any amount larger than a standard payment for logo design. Getting a judgement and collecting a judgement are two different things. Otherwise, she’s just looking for leverage to collect the normal fee.

Lawyers are pretty smart people. They’re not emotional about a case. They only take on cases where it’s obvious there’s money to be gained, and if the person being sued doesn’t have it, they expect the client to come up with it. That’s not intended as a criticism of lawyers, by the way. They want paid for their services just like the graphic artist does.

Very true.

I still recommend registration, however. In my only encounter with a copyright violation, all argument ceased when I mentioned that I had registered the copyright. From there it took only a couple of weeks to receive a nice fee. But this was with a reputable corporation who had not intentionally misused my images — not a shyster who had set out to steal my stuff from the word go.

Jim Hargan

"Jim Hargan" wrote in message

On 21 Oct 2005 19:12:26 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:

He switched webhosts, and put the logo I created on his website and is using it. He never paid me for any of my work
All of our correspondance has been saved. Including my telling him the design is copyrighted by me until he pays for copyright ownership.

As others have correctly pointed out, you own the copyright and you can prove it in court. But in order to do this, you have to be willing to sue.
In order to sue successfully, you will have to show your lawyer the potential for a settlement that’s either fast & easy or really big — or else your lawyer will just charge you by the hour until you run out of money.

Registering your copyright will allow you to claim punitive damages of up to $100,000 per violation. Otherwise, you are limited to actual damages, this being the amount he would have paid you for the design. For this reason, registering helps you by allowing a big enough settlement to convince a lawyer to take it on contingency. It also helps you by scaring your dishonest client into paying you. Registering is cheap and easy. Do it
now.

One other note: Don’t use your family lawyer. Be sure to hire a lawyer in your state who specializes in copyrights. You will find plenty of help in newsgroups for graphics artists, freelance writers, and professional photographers.

Good luck,

Jim Hargan
Freelance Photographer and Writer
www.harganonline.com

Worse comes to worse, call Judge Judy

Thanks for all your replies everyone. i really appreciate your thoughts and experience with this.

I live in WV, and the cleint lives in Utah. I am not a person who has a lot of money (obviously because I did work for someone without a contract because I needed the money) so I would have to get a lawyer to take it on contingeny. Would I try that in Salt Lake or West Virginia? I think it would only be worth going after in court if it would end up being a large sum…this guy owns rental properties and recently had the properties changed to condominiums, so he should be able to afford to pay me. The original contract amount (which he kept changing and adding items to) was $300 for his website including the logo. When he discontinued the website ( after I did 3/4 of the work a month ago without any payment) a couple days ago I asked him to at least pay me $75 for the logo since he is using it. This was his email to me yesterday:

"hallo. thanks for the email and sorry for my late reply. You know its not copywrited until its registered. But any way this is jus a temporary banner for the site.We will change it up quite a bit, or may have a completely different one. Sorry I didnt go with you on the project. The contract you wanted me to sign scared me. I can go $35 to send you. I’ll be gone for the next 2 -3 days, but pls let me know when you want me to submit the $35."

I’m just really shocked that he would be so greedy. I’m not after a large sum of money, I just want some justice…..I feel that I deserve what I asked for.

He’s aware that he owes you. He is trying to negotiate a lower amount. You can either negotiate or go to court or perhaps use a collection agency. I think you must send him a bill and allow him the opportunity to pay it before you go to court. You probably would have to use the courts in Utah. These are the type of customer to avoid in the future.

On 22 Oct 2005 20:39:00 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:

Thanks for all your replies everyone. i really appreciate your thoughts and experience with this.

I live in WV, and the cleint lives in Utah. I am not a person who has a lot of money (obviously because I did work for someone without a contract because I needed the money) so I would have to get a lawyer to take it on contingeny. Would I try that in Salt Lake or West Virginia? I think it would only be worth going after in court if it would end up being a large sum…this guy owns rental properties and recently had the properties changed to condominiums, so he should be able to afford to pay me. The original contract amount (which he kept changing and adding items to) was $300 for his website including the logo. When he discontinued the website ( after I did 3/4 of the work a month ago without any payment) a couple days ago I asked him to at least pay me $75 for the logo since he is using it. This was his email to me yesterday:

"hallo. thanks for the email and sorry for my late reply. You know its not copywrited until its registered. But any way this is jus a temporary banner for the site.We will change it up quite a bit, or may have a completely different one. Sorry I didnt go with you on the project. The contract you wanted me to sign scared me. I can go $35 to send you. I’ll be gone for the next 2 -3 days, but pls let me know when you want me to submit the $35."

I’m just really shocked that he would be so greedy. I’m not after a large sum of money, I just want some justice…..I feel that I deserve what I asked for.

So you are willing to spend $30 to register the logo in order to get an additional $40 out of the client?

I’d be interested to see what other posters think of setting a price of $75 for logo design. This is one instance where a Voided-type of reply is not really that out-of-place even if it’s unnecessarily cruel.

I’d also be interested to see what kind of contract was submitted that scares a client. Based on the logic and composition of the explanatory posts, it should be a treat to read.

—

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

On 22 Oct 2005 20:39:00 -0700, bethanyann wrote:

to pay me. The original contract amount (which he kept changing and adding items to) was $300 for his website including the logo. When he discontinued the website ( after I did 3/4 of the work a month ago without any payment) a couple days ago I asked him to at least pay me $75 for the logo since he is using it.

Never charge to little. It shows how you value yourself.

Learn what the full-time pros charge — lurk on their news groups, and you’ll get a good idea. Ask outright, and you’ll get a response.

I’ve never bought or sold a trademark design — but I would expect pricing to be similar to other arts. Here are the relevant factors:

1. You can sell either copyright itself or a license to it. If you sell a licence, you will get a royalty for each use. If you sell the copyright itself, your fee must include all the future licensing revenue that you are giving up. For trademarks, nearly everyone will want to buy the copyright. I would expect this to cost thousands, not dozens, of dollars.

2. The size and scope of your client’s enterprise reflects the amount of money he will make off your design. The more money he will make, the more money you should charge.

3. The volume and geographic spread of the trademark’s use will also affect the charge. If it’s used a lot over a large area, charge more. If it’s used on letterhead and cards only, for a strictly local business, the client isn’t going to make much money from it and neither will you.

I think this guy is responding to your lack of experience and confidence. Set him straight on copyright (quote the US Govt web site), and send him a bill. Include a late fee in the bill that compounds every 30 days. If he doesn’t pay, write if off to experience. Everyone gets stiffed once in a while.

One last thought: If there is any chance that this schmuck could become successful using your trademark, then the $30 registration fee will be well-spent. You can sue him for $100,000 punitive damages for *each* violation — that is, each and every separate piece of advertising on which he uses your design.

And, when you sue him for millions of dollars, do it in West Virginia.

—
Jim Hargan
Freelance Photographer and Writer
www.harganonline.com

I don’t usually post but I’ve dealt with similar clients before. At the appropriate points in your quoted message I’ve left my input FWIW.

On 22 Oct 2005 20:39:00 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:

"hallo. thanks for the email and sorry for my late reply. You know its not copywrited until its registered.

He is lying. It is copyrighted the moment you create it. He knows this and wants you to believe it is not true.

But any way this is jus a temporary banner for the site. We will change it up quite a bit, or may have a completely different one.

He knows he is a manipulative thieving weasel and wants to minimize his guilt.

Sorry I didnt go with you on the project. The contract you wanted me to sign scared me. I can go $35 to
send you. I’ll be gone for the next 2 -3 days, but pls let me know when you want me to submit the $35."

He thinks "If I pay him something he’ll go away and I’ll have a legal claim to the work he did." And if you accept it he will.

I’m just really shocked that he would be so greedy. I’m not after a large sum of money, I just want some justice…..I feel that I deserve what I asked for.

You have made a classic mistake. Given away your work before payment or at the MINIMUM a written contract. Unless you know the person well always get the money first with or without a contract. That way you work on their money. With the lowball money you were asking he is stealing pennies from the blind man’s cup.

Do us all a favor and instead of a lawyer hire a hit man.

RG

For Christ’s sake!
You’ve already spent more time posting here than the logo is worth!! Check the ego, take the 35.00, lesson learned and move on. Anything else you do going forward will only cost you money.

"bethanyann" wrote in message

Thanks for all your replies everyone. i really appreciate your thoughts and experience with this.

I live in WV, and the cleint lives in Utah. I am not a person who has a lot of money (obviously because I did work for someone without a contract because I needed the money) so I would have to get a lawyer to take it on contingeny. Would I try that in Salt Lake or West Virginia? I think it would only be worth going after in court if it would end up being a large sum…this guy owns rental properties and recently had the properties changed to condominiums, so he should be able to afford to pay me. The original contract amount (which he kept changing and adding items to) was $300 for his website including the logo. When he discontinued the website ( after I did 3/4 of the work a month ago without any payment) a couple days ago I asked him to at least pay me $75 for the logo since he is using it. This was his email to me yesterday:

"hallo. thanks for the email and sorry for my late reply. You know its not copywrited until its registered. But any way this is jus a temporary banner for the site.We will change it up quite a bit, or may have a completely different one. Sorry I didnt go with you on the project. The contract you wanted me to sign scared me. I can go $35 to send you. I’ll be gone for the next 2 -3 days, but pls let me know when you want me to submit the $35."

I’m just really shocked that he would be so greedy. I’m not after a large sum of money, I just want some justice…..I feel that I deserve what I asked for.

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:10:23 GMT, wrote:

I don’t usually post but I’ve dealt with similar clients before. At the appropriate points in your quoted message I’ve left my input FWIW.

On 22 Oct 2005 20:39:00 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:

"hallo. thanks for the email and sorry for my late reply. You know its not copywrited until its registered.

He is lying. It is copyrighted the moment you create it. He knows this and wants you to believe it is not true.

I wouldn’t assume that. Very few people outside of the field have the foggiest idea of copyright law. The client doesn’t even know how to spell "copyright", so there’s a good chance he’s just not informed.

But any way this is jus a temporary banner for the site. We will change it up quite a bit, or may have a completely different one.

He knows he is a manipulative thieving weasel and wants to minimize his guilt.

Sorry I didnt go with you on the project. The contract you wanted me to sign scared me. I can go $35 to
send you. I’ll be gone for the next 2 -3 days, but pls let me know when you want me to submit the $35."

He thinks "If I pay him something he’ll go away and I’ll have a legal claim to the work he did." And if you accept it he will.

I’m just really shocked that he would be so greedy. I’m not after a large sum of money, I just want some justice…..I feel that I deserve what I asked for.

You have made a classic mistake. Given away your work before payment or at the MINIMUM a written contract. Unless you know the person well always get the money first with or without a contract. That way you work on their money. With the lowball money you were asking he is stealing pennies from the blind man’s cup.

Do us all a favor and instead of a lawyer hire a hit man.

Not that I’d advocate such a thing, but for $35 she could hire a high school kid to hack the website and replace the logo with something … uhh…less appealing.

I’ve seen some eBay sites where a seller has used a link to someone else’s image and the person that originally put up the image has substituted something.

—

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

On 22 Oct 2005 20:39:00 -0700, "bethanyann"
wrote:
(snipped)

"hallo. thanks for the email and sorry for my late reply. You know its not copywrited until its registered. But any way this is jus a temporary banner for the site.We will change it up quite a bit, or may have a completely different one. Sorry I didnt go with you on the project. The contract you wanted me to sign scared me. I can go $35 to send you. I’ll be gone for the next 2 -3 days, but pls let me know when you want me to submit the $35."

Save a copy of the email.

I’m just really shocked that he would be so greedy. I’m not after a large sum of money, I just want some justice…..I feel that I deserve what I asked for.

It’s a small amount. No lawyer would touch the case.

If the logo is great, register it. Then it’s yours to use, sell to another client, change around a bit, whatever.

Write off this S.O.B. and don’t reply to him until your logo is registered and then tell him that and require him to refrain from ever using it. Unless it’s not a very good logo. Then just never reply to him again and don’t waste the money for registration.

Live, learn, sometimes cry along the way. This is a crying time, but don’t waste more than a day of sorrow. You’ve learned something from it. Go on to live and learn something that’ll bring you a bit of joy.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: (strip the .invalid to email)

If it were me, I’d cut my losses and move on. Unfortunately, in the real world, the bad guys sometimes win 🙁

You’ve probably better off learning from the experience, and putting the time you would have spent fighting for your money into designing something for another customer.

"bethanyann" wrote in message

Thanks for all your replies everyone. i really appreciate your thoughts and experience with this.

I live in WV, and the cleint lives in Utah. I am not a person who has a lot of money (obviously because I did work for someone without a contract because I needed the money) so I would have to get a lawyer to take it on contingeny. Would I try that in Salt Lake or West Virginia? I think it would only be worth going after in court if it would end up being a large sum…this guy owns rental properties and recently had the properties changed to condominiums, so he should be able to afford to pay me. The original contract amount (which he kept changing and adding items to) was $300 for his website including the logo. When he discontinued the website ( after I did 3/4 of the work a month ago without any payment) a couple days ago I asked him to at least pay me $75 for the logo since he is using it. This was his email to me yesterday:

"hallo. thanks for the email and sorry for my late reply. You know its not copywrited until its registered. But any way this is jus a temporary banner for the site.We will change it up quite a bit, or may have a completely different one. Sorry I didnt go with you on the project. The contract you wanted me to sign scared me. I can go $35 to send you. I’ll be gone for the next 2 -3 days, but pls let me know when you want me to submit the $35."

I’m just really shocked that he would be so greedy. I’m not after a large sum of money, I just want some justice…..I feel that I deserve what I asked for.

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:20:25 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

If it were me, I’d cut my losses and move on. Unfortunately, in the real world, the bad guys sometimes win 🙁

Only if you let them.

"Voivod" wrote in message

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:20:25 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

If it were me, I’d cut my losses and move on. Unfortunately, in the real world, the bad guys sometimes win 🙁

Only if you let them.

I agree. In my opinion, when a little dishonesty by the offender causes the victim to practically make a temporary change to the course of his life to the point where it costs him many times the original loss in additional time lost – money spent – and stress caused, then it’s an example where the bad guy has already won – the victim just doesn’t realise it yet.

I once read the story of a guy whos website was knocked off the net for a time by a sustained denial of service attack. Someone asked him what he was going to do – he said "it’s a nice day – I’m going to take a walk on the beach". I like his style.

"Cockpit Colin" wrote in message

"Voivod" wrote in message

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:20:25 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

If it were me, I’d cut my losses and move on. Unfortunately, in the real world, the bad guys sometimes win 🙁

Only if you let them.

I agree. In my opinion, when a little dishonesty by the offender causes

the

victim to practically make a temporary change to the course of his life to the point where it costs him many times the original loss in additional

time

lost – money spent – and stress caused, then it’s an example where the bad guy has already won – the victim just doesn’t realise it yet.
I once read the story of a guy whos website was knocked off the net for a time by a sustained denial of service attack. Someone asked him what he

was

going to do – he said "it’s a nice day – I’m going to take a walk on the beach". I like his style.

Go for it! Spend as much as it takes to fell better about it!!

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 01:02:39 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

"Voivod" wrote in message

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:20:25 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

If it were me, I’d cut my losses and move on. Unfortunately, in the real world, the bad guys sometimes win 🙁

Only if you let them.

I agree. In my opinion, when a little dishonesty by the offender causes the victim to practically make a temporary change to the course of his life to the point where it costs him many times the original loss in additional time lost – money spent – and stress caused, then it’s an example where the bad guy has already won – the victim just doesn’t realise it yet.
I once read the story of a guy whos website was knocked off the net for a time by a sustained denial of service attack. Someone asked him what he was going to do – he said "it’s a nice day – I’m going to take a walk on the beach". I like his style.

Then again you shouldn’t take one in the ass and roll over for the next one. Too many times and you might as well get a doormat tattooed on your back or just start working for free.

"Voivod" wrote in message

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 01:02:39 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

"Voivod" wrote in message

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:20:25 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

If it were me, I’d cut my losses and move on. Unfortunately, in the

real

world, the bad guys sometimes win 🙁

Only if you let them.

I agree. In my opinion, when a little dishonesty by the offender causes

the

victim to practically make a temporary change to the course of his life

to

the point where it costs him many times the original loss in additional

time

lost – money spent – and stress caused, then it’s an example where the

bad

guy has already won – the victim just doesn’t realise it yet.
I once read the story of a guy whos website was knocked off the net for a time by a sustained denial of service attack. Someone asked him what he

was

going to do – he said "it’s a nice day – I’m going to take a walk on the beach". I like his style.

Then again you shouldn’t take one in the ass and roll over for the next one. Too many times and you might as well get a doormat tattooed on your back or just start working for free.

To the contrary – you learn not to make the same mistake(s) next time.

"Cockpit Colin" wrote in message

"Voivod" wrote in message

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 01:02:39 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

"Voivod" wrote in message

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:20:25 +1300, "Cockpit Colin" scribbled:

If it were me, I’d cut my losses and move on. Unfortunately, in the

real

world, the bad guys sometimes win 🙁

Only if you let them.

I agree. In my opinion, when a little dishonesty by the offender causes

the

victim to practically make a temporary change to the course of his life

to

the point where it costs him many times the original loss in additional

time

lost – money spent – and stress caused, then it’s an example where the

bad

guy has already won – the victim just doesn’t realise it yet.
I once read the story of a guy whos website was knocked off the net for a
time by a sustained denial of service attack. Someone asked him what he

was

going to do – he said "it’s a nice day – I’m going to take a walk on the beach". I like his style.

Then again you shouldn’t take one in the ass and roll over for the next one. Too many times and you might as well get a doormat tattooed on your back or just start working for free.

To the contrary – you learn not to make the same mistake(s) next time.

what I have learned is that the ones you feel you need a contract with are precisely the ones who Will not think twice about breaking it. I had a client give me a bad check which is illegal in Florida for that amount. I wanted to get a cop and press charges, should have. At least she would have got arrested. The bitch told me to my face, go ahead sue me my brother is a lawyer! Went lawyer route, spent money, won judgment ,got nothing. Same woman ripped of several people.
Basically check their reputation first, use the contract to spell out the terms of usage very specifically, do NOT DO ANY CUSTOM work for anyone without at least half the money up front!!!!! In my studio all new clients pay COD for the first job. No money no pictures!!!!! The ones who are going to pay you will have no problems with that arrangement. The ones who don’t won’t pay you without a hassle or not at all.
Do not under price either, once they know you will work cheap you are doomed.
It is OK to ask new clients for credit references, after all who is going to give you money without checking your rep out?

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I have decided to cut the loss, move on and invested my time in registering with elance.com and am bidding on jobs with new clients. 50% down from now on. I wrote a businesslike letter expressing what I wanted to say to this client, and now I feel a lot better. I found out who his new web designer was, warned him so he took his work off the net and he never got paid either. It’s sad, but it made me feel like less of a sucker.

"bethanyann" wrote in message

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I have decided to cut the loss, move on and invested my time in registering with elance.com and am bidding on jobs with new clients. 50% down from now on. I wrote a businesslike letter expressing what I wanted to say to this client, and now I feel a lot better. I found out who his new web designer was, warned him so he took his work off the net and he never got paid either. It’s sad, but it made me feel like less of a sucker.

Good move.

"bethanyann" wrote in message

It’s sad, but it made me feel like less of a sucker.

There’s a difference between being sucked in and being a sucker – trusting someone isn’t exactly a "flaw of human nature". Keep in mind that he’s the one who made the choice to break that trust – he’s done it again (with the web designer), and it’s a pretty sure bet he’s done it more than once before.

My experience is that this kind of behaviour eventually catches up with people: he knows what he’s doing is morally wrong, and each time he does it it erodes a little bit more of his self-esteem. At some point in his life he’s going to realize that (despite the image he tries to project to the world) he’s not a happy person, and he won’t be able to figure out why. People who are dishonest with others are also dishonest with themselves. You won’t know about it, but that’ll be the moment in time when you actually won this round. At least you can hold your head up high!

I do work on trust for people all the time – sometimes I have to nudge them for the $$$ a bit, but it’s a pretty rare event when I’m blatently ripped off. When it does happen, I only lose a little money – in the long run, they lose a little more of their dignaty, self-respect, and integrity. I know who the biggest loser really is. What goes around comes around. ..