Disappointing print results

L
Posted By
LanceBellers
Jun 25, 2004
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497
Replies
12
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Closed
I have been experiencing disappointing printed results from various documents lately and I wonder if anyone can offer any advice.

My anxiety is that whereas before I would complete a job in Quark and then hand it over to a repro company to make film (or more recently pdf) for the printer, in recent months I am now creating jobs in InDesign (2.0) and making the high-res pdfs myself (using the industry-standard ‘press’ settings) and am slightly worried that I am not tuning everything quite correctly.

What I am finding is that jobs are coming back from the printer (three different) with a ‘chalky’ look to the finish, like a slight grey mist across images and lacking in punch.

I am pretty confident my Photoshop files are fine as I have worked with it for several years, use Euroscale Coated as my standard colour management and am pretty adept at tuning images to maximise their colour values and clarity etc. I retain the Euroscale coated throughout my InDesign and pdf files and think that is working as a controlled workflow OK.

A contact who is very good on these matters advised opening the final high-res pdfs created from the InDesign files (the pdfs supplied to the printers) by rasterising them into Photoshop and then examining the values. This I have done and they are exactly as I expected, matching those on graphic elements within the InDesign layouts (like panels, heading etc) and also values in the original Photoshop image files.

Which suggests that the pdfs I am creating are fine, there doesn’t appear to be any shift.

One thing I am suspicious of is simply how well the printers are handling the jobs.I am not trying to make myself feel better, honest, I just want to get to the bottom of it! For example, on one front cover the panel background for the main logo was a rich black, made up of 100 black/50c/50m/50y and yet once printed has a slightly off-black feel, a bit like looking at something set up at 95% black. This would, of course, apply to the whole page and therefore perhaps take the punch out the pictures as well? All three ‘problem’ jobs have been on satin paper, incidentally, which I think has less punch than gloss generally, but this is fairly standard for the king of reasonably posh annual reports etc I am working on here in the UK so it is something I have to get on top of.

I am in the process of discussing this with each printer and I hope this might make some improvement as I assume they can control the final values to some extent. But in the meanwhile, does anyone have any thoughts on this? Has anyone experienced similar issues from InDesign’s pdf engine perhaps?

Any thoughts whatsovever much appreciated…
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TL
Tim_Lookingbill
Jun 25, 2004
Does the rich black show paper or dots of anykind under a magnifying glass? Is satin considered a coated stock? It sounds like the printer’s RIP is doing some dot gain adjustments when outputting to film or direct to plate if the case.

Your rich black shouldn’t show any printer dots.

This might be a better question asked in print design, Acrobat or Indesign forum.
L
LanceBellers
Jun 25, 2004
Nope, can’t detect any dot in that area.

The satin stock point could be good one, I’m unsure. If it is considered ‘uncoated’, will check with printers.

If it was uncoated, am I better using ‘Euroscale uncoated’ settings or is that really only for the likes of low-grade newsprint?

And would Euro Uncoated give heavier ink results, which is what I think I need?

And what about the thousands of PShop images I have that are edited using Euro Coated setting?

Giving me a headache now…
PH
Paul_Hokanson
Jun 25, 2004
For example, on one front cover the panel background for the main logo was a rich black, made up of 100 black/50c/50m/50y and yet once printed has a slightly off-black feel, a bit like looking at something set up at 95% black.

I was told by a few printers that adding yellow to the rich black formula won’t help your black opacity but will introduce more ink (potentially causing problems) and worse, it can make your blacks muddy (brown) on some stock.

Beyond that and what Tim mentioned, if your numbers are right in the PDF, then it could be that the printer is not tuned for a PDF workflow as best as they should be.

Are you tagging the PDFs? Can the printer(s) provide insight?
L
LanceBellers
Jun 25, 2004
Sorry, feel a bit foolish, but how exactly do you tag the pdfs (I make high-res pdfs direct from ID). I usually set to be Acrobat 5 compatible but I do have Acrobat 6 – are there features in there that would help me?
PH
Paul_Hokanson
Jun 25, 2004
Lance,

Don’t feel foolish… from Indesign/Export PDF, choose save and click the "Advanced" tab on the next screen. Click "include ICC profiles" and all the profiles of your tagged CMYK links will be included with the PDF.

However, this is a moot point unless the printer has an ICC workflow in place… and has provided you with a profile of his printer so you can accurately setup your files to his press.

Best to talk to the printer about your output concerns first before beating this up too much.

Also, I’m no expert with this, so I’m sure that others here will offer some info.

Good luck!
L
LanceBellers
Jun 26, 2004
Cheers for advice. I’m aware of that setting but, as you say, I need liasion with the printer to really make progress – am speaking to one of them on Monday 🙂
DM
david_marley
Jun 26, 2004
Lance,

Here are a couple things to keep in mind about paper: Gloss coated papers print with the strongest density and contrast. Matte coated and dull coated papers will appear noticeably lighter. Satin finish can be coated and uncoated, and both will produce lower contrast than gloss coated paper. There are some very smooth uncoated papers (calendared) that have pretty good contrast — better contrast than matte and dull coated, but lower contrast than gloss coated papers.

Image density is also influenced by varnishes. Gloss varnish increases contrast. Satin and dull varnishes reduce image contrast.

You also asked about using an output profile for uncoated paper. Those profiles produce lighter image values to compensate for the increased dot gain of uncoated papers. Also, changing profiles won’t alter the appearance of solid ink such as 100% black and have little effect on rich blacks.

Paul,

Many printers avoid a lot of yellow in rich blacks simply as a precaution to keep the yellow from becoming contaminated on press, and to save ink. Anything darker than 60c40m40y100k is overkill for flat black backgrounds. For sheetfed and web/coated printing that allow a total ink density of 300%, shadow areas usually have a yellow density around 70%. These heavier tints are required to produce good shadow detail. They almost always print without color shifts, and printers use them without complaint.
P
progress
Jun 26, 2004
could this be something that the printer is doing differently in handling new ID files rather than your old Quark files?

I’m also in the UK, I find in general ICC colour management hasn’t hit the ground running here. Unfortunately there doesnt seem to be a system in place to force non CM savvy users and outputters to use what you have spec’d, or at least to ensure the CM chain isnt broken.
DM
david_marley
Jun 26, 2004
changing profiles won’t alter the appearance of solid ink such as 100% black

I’m sorry I made such an incomplete comment regarding profiles. I should have said that creating a file with a different profile won’t alter the result from solid ink values. It mostly alters the dot gain and tint values of the quartertones, midtones and three-quartertones. If the images are converted from one profile to another, the solid ink values can be severely altered.
PH
Paul_Hokanson
Jun 26, 2004
For sheetfed and web/coated printing that allow a total ink density of 300%, shadow areas usually have a yellow density around 70%. These heavier tints are required to produce good shadow detail. They almost always print without color shifts, and printers use them without complaint.

David,

Thanks for that info.
L
LanceBellers
Jun 26, 2004
Thanks for all the excellent feedback. I would cetainly say my experience with UK printers since using InDesign that their expertise and kit can be quite lacking, particularly the issue of having older RIPS that simply can’t handle ID’s more advanced features.

It would be perfect if that system did exist that made the CM supplied bulletproof once it leaves my hands but am I right in thinking I’m still pretty much at the mercy of what the printer does with my pdfs?
TL
Tim_Lookingbill
Jun 27, 2004
If you change print parameters such as switching from coated glossy to satin and use the same profile, then yes, you are at the mercy of what the printer does with your pdf’s using color management. Even without CM, it would change.

What makes things a bit more complicated is you’ve included in your post the ever so familiar line in these types of discussions…"adept at tuning/editing images for clarity" and then everything changes and you don’t know why. We don’t either unless we know the complete workflow. We’re assuming you work in an accurately calibrated/profiled editing environment. If not, there’s no point in trying to solve this issue.

With that said, if the densities in your rich blacks are as you stated on the print, then it must be the behavior of the ink on paper, not your file, RIP or Adobe software. Dots in PS will be the dots on press. If your blacks are chalky looking even with 100% black ink coverage, then it’s got to be the ink/paper combo doing this.

You’ll need either a custom profile of that paper and press ink combination, change to a paper/ink combo closer to your Euroscale coated profile or ask your printer for suggestions or adjustments.

The great thing about CM is, even if you can’t get an output device or press to give you what you expect, at least you have a way of knowing where the problem lies. How does your file output to a proofing device? Is it the same chalky look the press gives you? If so, your calibration might be at fault.

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