Hi, everyone. It has become clear to me that the s400, while a swell little camera in many ways, just doesn’t cut it for what I want to do and I would like some suggestions for an alternative.
Of course I would like something as small as the s400 but witha 4" lcd, a single lens that handles everything from micro to extreme zoom, complete manual and complete auto settings, and at least 6 MP for under $500. 8^)
Getting back to reality, I recently had a chance to do some shooting with the new Rebel and that is one nice camera–very comfortable, easy to see and so on, but my hesitation in getting that one is this: while it is irksome that I am missing so many shots with the s400, I wouldn’t be able to tote a camera that large around with me everywhere the way I can with the s400, so I would still miss the shots because I wouldn’t have a camera at all, many times.
Anyway, I am looking for something which is still reasonably compact, and I am willing to sacrifice zoom features for a decent macro mode. I do want more manual controls than the the s400 has, and I would kind of like something that can deal with a wider range of light than the s400–most of the really interesting potential shots in this area involve the dramatic contrast between the bright sunlight and dark, dark shadows. The s400 smooths that out, if things aren’t actuall blown out at the bright end. At least 4 MP, and I wouldnt’ say no to more.
I don’t care about battery type much–contrary to the general opinion, the proprietary battery is one thing I really like about the s400. I have two batteries which is enough for me. That’s good for two 256 flash cards of constant shooting, and by then I need a break as much as the batteries do.
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The 300D (Rebel Digital) isn’t that big to carry, and its weight is very comfortable (compared to other SLR like the 10D). Providing you’re happy with its flash (which is raised quite high for this type of camer), and the supplied lense, that’s really all you’ll have to carry (perhaps a few extra CF cards). You might rent one for a weekend (I don’t know how common this practice is elsewhere, but in Montreal, you can rent such things for 100$ per weekend, more or less and this amount is deducted when you buy a unit, same or different).
If you’re serious about macro photography, as I suspect you are, you should really consider the benefit of an SLR camera. No matter how good the P&S camera are, their lenses just don’t have the flexibility required to compete with SLR. And even if some offers full manual control, check to make sure manual control isn’t limited to a range of aperture from 5.6 to 11, or shutter speed, for example.
Buy the Rebel and keep the s400 handy at all times. I gave my other camera to my son when I bought the Rebel. I am currently looking for a small camera as a backup.
Hi, everyone. It has become clear to me that the s400, while a
swell little camera in many ways, just doesn’t cut it for what I want to do and I would like some suggestions for an alternative.
Of course I would like something as small as the s400 but witha
4" lcd, a single lens that handles everything from micro to extreme zoom, complete manual and complete auto settings, and at least 6 MP for under $500. 8^)
Getting back to reality, I recently had a chance to do some
shooting with the new Rebel and that is one nice camera–very comfortable, easy to see and so on, but my hesitation in getting that one is this: while it is irksome that I am missing so many shots with the s400, I wouldn’t be able to tote a camera that large around with me everywhere the way I can with the s400, so I would still miss the shots because I wouldn’t have a camera at all, many times.
Anyway, I am looking for something which is still reasonably
compact, and I am willing to sacrifice zoom features for a decent macro mode. I do want more manual controls than the the s400 has, and I would kind of like something that can deal with a wider range of light than the s400–most of the really interesting potential shots in this area involve the dramatic contrast between the bright sunlight and dark, dark shadows. The s400 smooths that out, if things aren’t actuall blown out at the bright end. At least 4 MP, and I wouldnt’ say no to more.
I don’t care about battery type much–contrary to the general
opinion, the proprietary battery is one thing I really like about the s400. I have two batteries which is enough for me. That’s good for two 256 flash cards of constant shooting, and by then I need a break as much as the batteries do.
I am with Ray. To do serious closeup work, you really need a SLR for accurate framing and a micro lens for quality. Anything else will be a compromise, no matter how close you can get to the subject. Sadly,the penalty is bulk and weight, and of course mucho dinero. 🙂
I am with Ray. To do serious closeup work, you really need a SLR for accurate framing and a macro lens for quality. Anything else will be a compromise, no matter how close you can get to the subject. Sadly,the penalty is bulk and weight, and of course mucho dinero. 🙂
Ray, while I was agreeably surprised at how light the Rebel is, it’s definitely not purse-friendly. In my part of the world I wouldn’t dare leave something like that in the car, and I would not be well-received at work lugging a camera bag in addition to all my musical gear. <g>
Ray, I will check out the Nikon. I had considered that one before, because I like the way the LCD works, besides the fact that the controls are more comprehensible to me–I’d find it easier to work with numbers for the white point, for instance, instead of "tungsten", "cloudy" etc. the way the s400 does.
Barbara…Good luck on whatever your decision is. It is so difficult, but I am like you I would want macro to be a strong point. I dread thinking about a new camera…choosing one that is.
Also I am very curious why no one ever even mentions a Sony camera…mine is almost two old and I bought new from Ritz Camera in a Dutch Auction on Ebay. The model was no longer being made…so good buy. It is strictly a point and shoot, but Sony does make much higher models of course…still no interest from this group. What do you all know that I don’t???? Is it because of the Memory Stick deal?
Everything you ask for can be found in the new Minolta A-1. Good close up facilities, works like an SLR with its electronic viewfinder, a wonderful 28-200 zoomlens and nevertheless a little smaller and lighter than the average SLR. In my opinion one of the best buys in todays market.
I would really like for Jane to jump into this discussion because she was to replace her camera a few months ago when hers broke, and I believe she looked for a new Nikon as well. She might have interesting information for you. One of my co-worker bought a Nikon for his wife and she’s very satisfied with it. She had a Nikon film based camera before.
By the way, I hope you weren’t serious about leaving a camera in the car? You probably know that, amongst other things, the LCD screen is likely to die if the temperature gets too high for more than a few minutes… Batteries could leak as well, and sorts of things could be damaged.
Take a look at the G3 before you buy, though. A friend of mine is doing some very serious photography with this camera and the results are incredible.
Dorothy, Sony is not a name that comes instinctively to my mind when talking about digital cameras. And I know very little about them. But you’re right, they offer a very nice range of models.
Hi, Dorothy. Well, for me as a mac user, sony is the most difficult brand to work with if you have a mac–those little mavica cds are not mac-compatible for instance.
Ray, that was what I meant–it’s always too hot here to leave the camera, even when you are just running into the store for a minute.
Leen, you are right–I forgot about that one because it was still in preview (and expensive!) when I was looking before. I’ll have to investigate that more thoroughly.
The G3 is nice – but not particularly compact, especially with the adaptor and close up lens screwed onto its front. But then I prefer a larger rather than a smaller camera – better lens, easier to hold steady – I rejected the CanonA70 which was my first choice as it was too small. I tend to have a back pack with me whenever I go out as my littlest child still tends to need a change of clothes every now and then, so it’s no hardship to throw in the camera case, tripod and external flash as well. If you like small cameras the new A80 might be worth a look – bigger than the s400, but will take add-on close-up lenses to allow closer focus and has full manual control and a flip out screen. I’m not sure what it’s closest focus is without a close up lens tho’.
Barbara, I like Susan’s Canon G3 and Barb Wayne’s Minolta S414. I still use my G2 (older relative of the G3) 75% of the time because it’s so portable vs. the hulking 10D.
Chuck and Susan and other Canon users, another strange color thing I’ve noticed with the s400 is that reds "glow" so that they sometimes appear almost out of focus, especially in bright sunlight.
Is that typical of canon or just unique to this one? I have found several recent consumer reviews of the s400 that mention the oversaturated blues with it, BTW.
From many of the reviews I have read it is a problem with many P&S cameras. I know the G3 mentioned by Ray has a parameter adjustment for saturation. You will find this on the 10D and 300D as well. Over saturation and too much in camera sharpening can ruin an otherwise wonderful photograph.
Canon P&S cameras have a very high saturation level. I’ve set up a small gallery to show you what my Powershot A20 used to do : http://www.pbase.com/carbone/powershot_a20 Believe me, those pictures are way more saturated than the scenes were in reality. Although it’s not very bad, it’s just not exactly the same.
Higher end models have settings for saturation and sharpness, which usually lacks in P&S.
I find that the Canon G3 reds (and colours in general) look better in Elements with Ignore Exif in place and colour management turned off. With full colour management on and Ignore Exif in place the reds are wild! The G3 obviously uses a colour space that is close to but not quite sRGB – the AdobeRGB that full colour management uses is simply way over the top!
I find the G2’s color saturation to be somewhat high, but not extreme; guess I’d call it ‘lively’. The 10D, on the other hand, is on the other end of the scale; I would call it ‘blah’….
I remember seeing something equating the "green square" settings on the 300D / Digital rebel with the 10D parameters. The Rebel is set to Sharpness +2 and Saturation +2. compared to Zero on the 10D. Therefore, if you can boost these parameters in the rebel, you really might be over-sharpening and saturating. I use my 10D at Sharpness +2 and Saturation +2 most of the time.
The Powershot S50 looks like a wonderful carry-around camera. I recommended one to my friend just the other day. I’ve not seen the output nor read much on DP Review, but I’d look into it if I was in the market. The only negative I’ve read is that you can’t use an exernal flash. If you think you need a lot of flash, then the Powershot G5 is a good choice.
Regarding Sony: I tend to stay with manufactureres that have experience building film cameras.
Stanley, the s400,G3, G2, A70, A80, Rebel, and 10D mentioned in the thread are all from Canon. That’s the only brand I recognize, so can’t help with identifying the others…
The S50 is a very nice camera (went from S30-S50 in May).
Only downsides i can think of are low light shots without flash and no external flash ability, but then again it is a compact camera. I have external lenses, filters and and underwater case for it.
I seriously considered the Rebel(version) as an upgrade, but to pay that and loose second curtain flash seemed a waste of time for me. I’m in no rush and can save for longer.
I had one on order at Gateway until I read a review. I was disappointed in what they called over-compression of the jpegs. I canceled my order and drove to Denver the next day to get the 300D. I had always liked the Fuji line of cameras though.
I had one on order at Gateway until I read a review. I was disappointed in what they called over-compression of the jpegs. I canceled my order and drove to Denver the next day to get the 300D. I had always liked the Fuji line of cameras though.
I’ll check that 300D. I am leaning towards the Olympus C-750 ultrazoom.
The Fuji is one of the finest cameras in the market, especially because of its extended exposure latitude. The JPEG compression is hardly an item as for printing purposes one can shoot in RAW as well.
But the discussion went towards a SLR camera as I understood the OP, Barbara, prefered the features of an SLR but in a smaller size. That’s why I came up with the Minolta A1.
The post I answered had asked for opinions on the Fuji camera, I simply gave my opinion. The JPEG compression did matter to me because as I understood the review RAW was only available in the 6mp interpolated mode which they said increased noise. I was also concerned with the 800 iso only being available in the small mp output. I agree that the Fuji is one of the finest cameras around, I would own an S2 if I could afford one. And I would not have had the 5000 on order if I didn’t expect a quality product. I didn’t intend to take the thread off topic but as you know they seem to have a life of their own.
re; Fuji S5000. I have to disagree about noise being present in the 6mb setting. I shoot all my images in this mode at the JPEG setting and i am completely satisfied with this camera. I did shoot in RAW a couple of times and decided there wasn’t enough difference to keep shooting in raw considering 9 images compared to 43 or so on my 64mb picture card. There are lots of settings to play with on this camera and I’m still playing/learning. The colors are wonderful and the images are crisp. I would recommend this camera to people who just like to take pictures without being too overly serious about it. For the price I paid at B&H photo I got a great little camera. Paying close attention to all the settings and just experimenting is all in the fun of it! Don’t bother buying this camera if you just want to point and shoot because then it’s too much camera for you. Yes the iso 800 is only available in the 1mb setting but that was never a concern to me since I have no interest in shooting in the dark. If i see a UFO I would probably be too shaky and nervous to get a good pic anyways. The 400 iso works great with the 5 different flash setting options in this camera including forced flash which works great. I admit I’m still playing and there are some settings I have not experimented with but I am happy with my purchase. If you get this camera take the time to experiment. You wont be sorry.
If you haven’t really set your mind on a selection already, there are a couple of things I like to bring up. If you shoot in low light situations (with or without flash), active focus assist is important. Certain cameras lacking this feature tend to hunt for focus, or at least take a long time to come to focus. Some cameras like the rotating body Sonys are good with extreme low light, while some Nikon P&S digicams are less capable. My Canon G2 has that light beam assist focusing and I find it very handy in interior shots.
The other thing is the type of flash memory used. Some are common to a whole bunch of digital gadgets, and others are newer products which tend to be less available and more expensive for the same capacity. And it will take time for good generic makers to watch their market segment before they also commit to produce. Once you started with one type of flash memory, you’re more likely to buy your next digicam or other e-gadgets that use the same type. It’s almost like marrying into a family. 🙂
Have been following this series of comments with great interest since I should like to buy a camera. I looked at the Fuji S5000 and liked it. But today I looked at the new Canon PowerShot G5. This camera felt good to hold and the ergonomics seem great. As to Shan’s point, the G5 has a low light illuminator to assist focus in dim settings. The other camera that is interesting is the new Kodak DX6490. Has anyone used either or both of these? Ken
Ken – I have the G3, which is prettty much the same (apart from the megapixels) as the G5. I haven’t found the low light illuminator to be particularly helpful with the G3 unless you are focussing on something fairly close-up – it doesn’t seem to have a very long range. For me this would not be a make or break feature of choosing a camera purchase – you could always shine a flashlight on the subject if that was a problem! I really like its ergonomics – only exception is the bad habit of the mode dial to turn itself around when putting it in and out of the case, which means that I find myself suddenly using auto when I thought it was on AV. And the provided neck strap is too short! The use of CF cards (which I already had) was another argument in its favour – as Shan said it makes it easier to switch between cameras if they all use the same media. The G3 battery life (and I presume this is true for the G5 too) is phenomenal. I have not yet run out of battery as long I remembered to charge it up the night before.
And the jpgs on the G3 are very uncompressed on the superfine setting – seems to correspond to around an 11 setting on Elements. A big issue for me after my Kodak, which had very high levels of jpg compression – not too bad on the images as soon as they came out of the camera, but showed up with any amount of postprocessing.
I have the same problem with the G2. Unless extra care is taken, the mode dial gets rotated when pulling the camera out of the soft pouch. There should have been some kind of lockout for the dial. Your G3 has a much better right grip for one-hand shots and better handling. As for the G5, if it’s the same CCD module, I wonder if the image quality is affected by the blown up px. The Nikon Coolpix 5400 and 5700 looked very good to me in terms of a wider angle and longer zoom range, until dpreview found the CCD is now s smaller size than their predecessor 5000. Maybe technology has advanced to the point where size no longer counts. :p
You hit the nail on the headwith "…the numbers don’t say it all…". I have a pocket 35mm Rollei Prego Micron that was tested out to have flare, poor edge sharpness, chromatic abberations, plus of a whole lot of stuff I don’t even remember. Yet, a few of the frames I took 5 years ago on the uppermost deck of a cruise ship came out with strong, beautiful colors. They printed out way better than the ones taken with a Nikon SLR camera with a single focal length 24mm. The P&S images had atmosphere perhaps because of the lens imperfections!
The other camera that is interesting is the new Kodak DX6490. Has anyone used either or both of these?
I’ve been trying to decide between the Fuji S5000 and the DX6490 for about a month now. Recently I was able to play with the Kodak in a store for a little while and I really like the feel of the camera. I read somewhere that the Kodak does a good job with macro shots and that finally tipped the scales. I ordered the Kodak today. I’ll post back when it comes and I have an opportunity to play around with it a bit.
Joe, Shan, Barbara,Leen – I respect the reviews that are published, but am guarded in accepting all of their conclusions – sort of the lesson that many learned with stock market analysts. To me the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I shall look at the dial on the Canon again to see if this flaw has been rectified. The Kodak has an especially nice,large viewing screen. Will be waiting for your field trial, Joe. Ken
Yes, the reviews and numbers don’t tell the whole story. Heck, I’m much more satisfied using my 1.3 GHz Mac than I am using my 1.6 GHz PC. But that’s another thread. 🙂
My A70 has an autofocus light, but I just don’t like autofocus because it’s tough to get real depth of field without making the whole shot in focus (other than pictures of mountains, photos only have real interest if some of the picture is out of focus so that the subject is highlighted and the viewer gets a sense of distance or depth). The A70 has manual focus, but it’s a joke–as I mentioned in an early thread from Barbara, the LCD is so tiny and low resolution that it’s impossible to do any real focusing with it. (Maybe I’m missing something?)
I would kill for a $500 4-megapixel Pentax ME. For you young’ns out there, the Pentax ME was a very small and light SLR about 20 years ago. No autofocus, but it did have auto and aperture priority exposure control, along with completely manual. And interchangeable lenses. I love my Tokina 28-85mm lens.
Lou – While I have grown to love some of the G3’s bells and whistles, in the end I think I could quite happily live with a digital SLR with just manual, aperture and shutter priority on the settings,(none of this "mode" stuff) a nice bright viewfinder and a manual focusing lens….because I don’t have an external meter I think I’ll have to throw in a decent light meter too.(preferably with a spot meter setting as well as/instead of evaluative – I like to have control over what the exposure is concentrating on.) But then I’ve never had an SLR with a decent AF system (film or otherwise) – I gather they are much superior to the focussing on the compact digitals.
Actually I doen’t think it’s the AF that is at fault with the A70 – due to the tiny focal length of the lenses on the compacts they have whopping great depth of field even with the aperture right open. Whether you focus manually or automatically that’s still going to be a problem. It’s the speed/accuracy that the thing will focus in that’s more of an issue for me.
Supposedly, all the Canon digicams use their patented "Digic" image processing software. I just found out about it when I bought an A70 for my wife to use as a P&S snapshot camera. In tests I have run comparing it to my old Nikon CP 950 and my Oly E20, it blows the old Nikon away. It’s not quite up to the Oly, but the color and optical performance are surprisingly good for a $300 camera. Very small cameras, and especially very lightweight ones are hard to hold steady when shooting. The A70 takes four AA batteries, which makes it a bit heavier than similar cameras (like the Nikon CP3100) but the extra weight, nice handgrip and LOOOONG battery life were what sold me. If you want to do serious macro work, as others have said, you really need an SLR, although you might look at cameras like the Nikon CP 5700 which has a TTL EVF. I’ve heard it’s not great, though. If you ever get your hands on an SLR, you’ll never be satisfied with a rangefinder camera for serious photography IMHO. Bert
Actually I doen’t think it’s the AF that is at fault with the A70 – due to the tiny focal length of the lenses on the compacts they have whopping great depth of field even with the aperture right open.
Susan,
Yeah, it’s not that I think the AF is broken or anything, just that I’d like to override it for hard ("interesting"!) shots, but it’s impossible to override because there is no way to check focus (low res LCD). I posted some before-and-after-Elements pictures a couple weeks ago, and later pointed out some of the pictures that were close to being ruined because even though there is a large depth of field, it’s not large enough to forgive AF sins. 🙂 A common problem being wispy foreground (tree branches, for example) that is erroneously in sharp focus with the real subject in the distance.
Anyway, Bert’s statement really rings true:
If you ever get your hands on an SLR, you’ll never be satisfied with a rangefinder camera for serious photography IMHO.
I made the mistake of thinking the LCD on a point-and-shoot camera would substitute for a true SLR, but I’m just trying to warn others that that’s not the case. 🙁 When I bought my A70 for $300, digital SLRs at the time were selling for 5x-10x the price, so they were totally out of my range. They’ve come down since then, but I’ll wait ’til they get to the sub-$500 range.
I made the mistake of thinking the LCD on a point-and-shoot camera would substitute for a true SLR
Yeah, I thought the same thing, Lou. None of them have a large enough LCD to be useful for that, and outdoors, even the brightest ones are hard to see. When I was shopping for a replacement for my Nikon CP 950, I had the same problem you are having. Digital SLR’s were just too expensive. I considered the Nikon CP 5700 with the Electronic Viewfinder that looks through the lens, but I didn’t like the low-res image. So, I decided on the Olympus E20, which is an SLR, although it uses a beamsplitter rather than a mirror to direct the image to the viewfinder, and it does not have interchangeable lenses. The most important factor, though, was that a friend had one that he wanted to sell, so I got it for a great price. I have found the 4x zoom sufficient for most situations, and I like the fact that the shutter is much quieter without the mirror-flipping mechanism. The E20 is a fairly old design and prices are coming down. I think you could probably buy one for well under $1K…but probably not under $500 yet, unless you were willing to consider a used one. If you would like to see some E20 images, go to my website: <http://community.webshots.com/user/bigelowrs> The Africa pix were all taken with the E20. The rest were taken with the Nikon CP 950. Bert
Shan, Thanks. We’re going back to Africa next May, and I’m almost afraid to go…I was so lucky the first time. It was like the animals were posing for me. Beginner’s luck, I guess. I’m afraid I won’t be so lucky next time. We’re going to different areas this time, so I should see some animals we didn’t see on my first trip. Wildebeest, wild dogs and more. Should be fun. My wife is there now, in Botswana. I think we talked about it in another thread. I bought her a Canon Powershot A70 for the trip. I hope she gets some good pix. She didn’t want to take the E20…too big and heavy. Bert
Took the liberty of e-mailing you a 9/12/03 State Dept. announcement regarding possible terrorist activites in East Africa. The wife and I were thinking of joining up with a few friends to go on one of those safari tours to Kenya and Tanzania next spring. But we all got cold feet on reading the caution. It could be just another false alarm like so many in the past. But I am too old and feeble to take the risk.
Africa is a big country. Hope you and the mrs. are not going anywhere near those areas.
For those looking for an SLR type camera that you can see "threw the lens" and dont want to spend the $1000. The Sony 707 and 717 cameras allow you to see what you are shooting as if it were an SLR. The viewfinder is a video screen as well as the lcd screen in the back. They have 5 megapixels and 5X zoom capacity. I have the 707. Have had it for about 2 years and simply love it. The lens swivels on the body which allows waist level shooting. It has many many great features and now since Sony has come out with their new model the 707 and 717’s can be had for about $500.
By the way the Sony 707 – 717 viewfinder screen will also show you "what you see is what you get" through the lens depth of view. When you set apeture or shutter priority and change the settings the focus range changes as we know and you actually see what is in focus and what is not … just like in an SLR preview setting. This feature is what really sold me in the beginning. Julio
Lou, Thanks. I can’t wait to go again. Africa is a photographer’s paradise. What a beautiful, spectacular place! Most of it, contrary to widespread belief, is totally safe…well, safer than any US city, anyway. South Africa in particular is great. We’re going to rent a car next year and drive the Garden Route, a scenic coastal highway. And of course, we HAVE to do some more game drives in the parks. Bert
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