Photoshop toolbar issues

Tim,

If and until Adobe ever decides to meet user requests for extending their GUI design to include customizable toolbars, you’re out of luck. That is, unless you’re willing to spend $150 for the discontinued Extensis PhotoTools plug-in suite which, until Photoshop 6, provided customizable toolbars called PhotoBars; at that point, Extensis chose to delete PhotoBars from PhotoTools. Frankly, PhotoTools isn’t worth $150 given Photoshop’s current level of capability, but the PhotoBars component should’ve been maintained and sold as a separate product. Since Extensis bailed out of doing so, I’ve done what I can to keep PhotoBars alive, but you’d have to be a registered owner of PhotoTools in order to regain the PhotoBars functionality. If you’d like to see more about what I’ve done with PhotoBars, please visit <http://jazzdiver.com/photoshop/photobars.htm>.

Many will debate the value of toolbars, but it’s all a matter of how they are implemented and also what the needs of the user are. For example, a mobility-impaired individual who can more comfortably use a mouse than a keyboard, is better served by clickable buttons. That’s the best reason I’ve heard from those who use my PhotoBars supplement.

Regards,

Daryl

You mean a button bar? That annoying thing found in consumer applications?

Chris,

Yes, that thing. 🙂

Seriously, I know at least somewhat of your opinion on customizable toolbars and that it echoes some of the other opinions of Photoshop users. But, I also know you Adobe folks have provided some pretty darn brilliant features in Photoshop, so I’m sure the same talent that goes into them could likewise be applied toward providing a well-implemented customizable toolbar feature set. To satisfy both camps, those who don’t want them and those who do, it’s just a matter (oversimplified comment) of providing them as an option that can be used or not. I don’t know anything about application design myself, so I don’t know if there is something intrinsic in providing toolbars that that hinders application performance, but I do know they can boot individual productivity. Admittedly, if toolbars bogged down the code such that those who don’t use them are still negatively affected, that’s not desirable, but again I still assume the talent exists to overcome such obstacles.

I’m guessing the number of mobility-impaired Photoshop users is a very small percentage of the Photoshop market, but keyboard shortcuts don’t cater very well to them, whereas buttons would. Sure, they could still use menus, but everyone likes to be able to do things via a quicker approach where it exists. I know you can’t satisfy everyone all the time though, and I’m just being the devil’s advocate here, given my obvious bias in favor of toolbars. Frankly, while I do have two toolbars active at all times, I still fall back to shortcuts and menu selections at times, simply for overlooking that I may have a button readily available instead.

Your rhetoric about "consumer applications"…hmmm…well, I realize you’re trying to distinguish Photoshop as a "professional application", which I don’t dispute. But, toolbars are readily found and I assume effectively utilized in many other professional applications…3D Studio Max, Macromedia applications, TrueSpace, Maya, FrameMaker, Acrobat, etc. I don’t know that all or any of these are customizable, but my point is that toolbars are useful and often enhance productivity.

Cheers,

Daryl

I can see the toolbar now…every tool in Photoshop with its own little icon. Of course, it would take up the top half of the screen and you would need to study for three months just to learn which icon had which purpose.

Hmmm. I’m with Chris on this one. It is a possibility for lower end programs (is it in Elements?) but there is too much in PS to make a comprehensive toolbar.

As far as customizable goes, the majority of power users, who could/would take the time to customize, don’t need icons, and the casual users who do would never customize.

Hi Don,

Whether or not every tool has an icon, no reasonable user would ever attempt to place every single one of them on their screen. To do so would be ridiculous. However, even if only one or two toolbars were provided, but to which any choice of buttons could be added, then those users who can benefit from such an approach would have the option of employing it. This isn’t something that has to be forced upon those who don’t want it. It is simply a matter of having the option available. PhotoBars was a very good stab at that goal but still leaves room for improvement.

If we didn’t have keyboard shortcuts and did have toolbars with customizable buttons, then your last comment could just as easily be applied toward a desire to add shortcuts. Each approach provides an option for a user to improve their efficiency in using Photoshop. Neither is a bad approach.

Regards,

Daryl

Even Adobe engineers can say inane things 🙂
A customizable toolbar can be a great help, especially when you use multiple programs with different keyboard shortcuts. AutoCAD (definitely not a consumer application) has this feature along with customizable Tool Palettes where one can access custom routines or commands. Seems like there is plenty of room in the Tools palette to let us have some of it. There are people that tend to remember keyboard macros that prefer keyboard entry; and there are people that tend to remember icon graphics and location. It’s not a question of who’s right or wrong, it’s a preference.

Chris is often very helpful in his answers but is equally often very arrogant and intolerant of harmless questions about what is undoubtedly a wonderful piece of software; albeit very hard to learn.

He really shot himself in the foot with the remark about "consumer applications"! Photoshop is probably the only non-consumer application (whatever that may be) which steadfastly refuses to move with the times on user friendliness. Still, it keeps lecturers in business.

"Professional" does not have to mean obscure and difficult.

John

Thanks everyone for this great exchange of ideas.

I recently considered buying one of those nice and expensive touch screens, partly to get away from using the mouse so much. I don’t want to be tethered to the keyboard either, so the more I can tap (or click, as the case may be) the better I like it. I don’t feel more "professional" when I use the keyboard, that’s ludicrous.

No doubt PS sets a high standard, no one is arguing that. But as someone pointed out, there is a button bar in Elements, so Adobe knows how to do it. And customizable/dockable toolbars, I mean c’mon — if Paint Shop Pro can do it…

The bottom line is that PS is exceedingly more expensive (I resisted saying overpriced) than its competition, and yes I do expect more performance and more options and more everything for that price. I don’t get a rush from the "feeling" or the perception that I’m using the Mercedes of graphics packages, but there’s an old-school element out there that apparently does. Adobe’s elitist attitude can only end up hurting them by alienating us "consumers" who spend our money on user-friendly "consumer applications".

Oh…brother… remember when Photoshop didn’t have layers, now it’s like Adobe is supposed to please every person out there with their own personal peeve…If you like PSP use it..I wouldn’t recommend trying to do separations perhaps…Adobe please don’t mess up my screen real estate with yet another toolbar that I already know the shortcut keys etc. for…I’m already using 2 monitors…I really don’t want to have to move to 3

John – read it as it is typed. And think about the fact that there can be multiple reasons for what I say (like trolling here for your thoughts on button bars).

What you consider "obscure and difficult" is what most professionals consider "getting out of their way and letting them get work done". We have to strike a balance between putting everything in your face (do you really have multiple 22 inch displays for all that?) and keeping things out of the way but accessible at all times.

Chris,

I understand all the concern about using up too much of the desktop work area…I too hate that. In fact, that was one of my initial gripes with palettes, but being so easily able to tab them in and out of view really eliminates the concern. When I played with PSP a few times, I first thought I liked their idea of auto-popup toolbars…compact yet presenting a lot of information when needed. Well, once I’d panned over a few popups unintentionally and didn’t like the sense of "jumpiness" they imparted to the workspace, I quickly came even more to appreciate the GUI design of Photoshop.

I do still think toolbars can add value to Photoshop for a productive workflow, again based upon the preference of the user. If Christine for example is worried she’ll need 3 screens due to all the toolbars using up precious workspace, then she simply could go Window > Toolbars > Hide All and find the workspace she favors. For those who favor the use of a few toolbars that don’t truly eat up all that much of the workspace, they could go to Window > Toolbars > Custom1, Custom2,.. to activate whichever toolbars they had created to best suit their needs. It truly could all just be a matter of choice, so that really finds me questioning why there is so much resistance to the idea of OPTIONAL toolbars.

Extensis made a valiant stab at providing customizable toolbars with PhotoBars in the PhotoTools suite, but unfortunately some features never worked properly…such as creating buttons for keystroke sequences or even a single keystroke (such as a function key). I also think they could’ve improved upon how toolbar docking is supported. But, on the whole, they made a very worthwhile product. I just know Adobe could do the job even better.

One question I have for anyone who knows about the design of an application window, is whether or not the unused area to the right of the main menus would support a docked toolbar? If so, then that is one area of wasted space that could be used and wouldn’t infringe upon anyone’s concerns regarding a crowded desktop. As I sit here looking at a full-screen display of PSCS on a 20" monitor at 1280×1024 resolution, I see that gray area right of the Help menu could easily accommodate maybe a 30-button toolbar, if so desired by a user. Here’s a dummied-up example, <http://jazzdiver.com/photoshop/pstoolbar.jpg> , using some icons from PhotoBars, and it does look rather cluttered, but I still question whether that area of the window would be usable for such a purpose.

Thanks,

Daryl

Daryl – nice feedback. Thanks.

What Daryl may not realize is that many designers hate to be at 1280 and above, especially when you are designing a large piece that includes a significant amount of type. It makes it much harder to see things like typos when you are at such a high resolution. Personally when I am working on a design I need to see whole cloth not bits and pieces where I am zoomed in at 200-300%. Especially in the area of typography. I hate it when type greeks on me and I am looking at little grey bars instead of words on the screen. What works for web designers may not work for print professionals who are working with large document formats and small type.

I’ve looked at PSP and while for a casual typographer it may seem fine, to me it seems to get cluttered quickly and you run out of usable space. And I don’t want Photoshop to have this interface clutter that seems to be popping up all over the place. Customizable tool bars and option keys are fine, but even in InDesign when just about everything can have custom options, you find that many if not most designers are going with the defaults and not customizing, but rather learning the program as it was designed. And what is nice is that everything works as intended, you are not finding yourself reaching into the desk to find out what shortcut key you have screwed up by changing the options or hunting down a book to find out what you did to suddenly make the program not work like it did yesterday (yes, I took the plunge and changed the shortcuts in InDesign and regretted it about 15 minutes later when I forgot which changes I made.)

I design with 2 monitors, and I have a 22 inch and a 19 inch for my palettes, but there are days when I want every inch of real estate that my 22 inch display has to offer and then some! There are days when I have almost or all of the palettes open in the second monitor and my work still may slip over the edge and into the second monitor because I am working on details that I need to see clearly and in a whole cloth fashion. And I like many others do not find it problematic to open a palette to find things, instead of giving up screen real estate and trying to remember what options are on what tool bar and where I put things the last time around.

For some people they may like the "convenience" that customization has to offer, for many professionals however, that "convenience" comes at a price, a price which costs us time and effort. I like that the current interface puts me in control and it works! Unlike Photo Bars which I quickly uninstalled and threw into a drawer when most if not all of the "customization" options did not work. Also if you look closely at the jpg of the Photo Bars example that you provided, most of us would need a magnifying glass overlaying the monitor screen just to make out the icons.

Hi Christine,

True enough, I definitely did not realize many designers prefer working at sub-1280 resolutions. I’m not a professional user of Photoshop, working with it on a daily basis, so my comments are offered with that in mind. But, I do feel that even in light of my limited perspective, my opinions still merit consideration (not to imply you said otherwise).

My favorite example, if not obvious already, is that regarding mobility-impaired individuals. Why? Because even though I cannot fully appreciate their difficulties since I have no such problems to deal with myself, I can appreciate how something as simple as toolbars could greatly simplify their tasks in using Photoshop and enhance their opportunities to explore their own creative visions. One individual who uses my PhotoBars supplement wrote how grateful they were to have back their buttons/toolbars after Extensis deleted them from Phototools. I forget now whether they only had one hand or not, but basically they were limited to one usable hand, and they usually resorted to normal menu access in lieu of keyboard shortcuts for executing Photoshop commands. Having a toolbar of buttons allowed them to work a bit more quickly and feel more productive. As you can imagine, that was a very nice letter to receive.

I know you said that customizable toolbars are fine, so you’re not really disputing what I said so much as offering more food for thought on this topic. And I do agree that customization can get out of hand if one isn’t mindful of what they’re doing. But, after getting that one letter, I guess I nearly feel I’ve stepped onto a new platform of supporting such ideas that can benefit even a scant few such users of Photoshop. Last night I even began to wonder how a person might proceed to enter text if typing on a keyboard is difficult for them. Speech recognition came to mind, so I gave that a shot…using WinXP’s capabilities to dictate text into Word, then cut it with a click and paste it into PSCS. That worked fine, save for not being able to dictate the Cut command…I think there’s a way to do that.

Pardon this extra rambling…I realize I’m getting off track from the basics of the topic.

Anyway, yes, customization can get out of control and surely could introduce problems into the software code that just make a complex application all the more error-prone. I’m also in agreement that the PSP approach with pop-up toolbars is not something I’d want to see arise in Photoshop. Your comment about InDesign is interesting in that you say "learning the program as it was designed". Considering that customizable options are part of "as it was designed", then putting those features to use is doing what the designers intended…making it fit one’s usage preferences.

I’m not too fond of the idea of being able to change capabilities that are prone to becoming fouled up in their operation. For example, if Adobe provided toolbars and buttons for every menu option as is done with PhotoBars, then I’d be happen to see those buttons all be "rigid" and not changeable. Toolbar content would be flexible to the user’s whims, but a toolbar is merely a container and not something that controls any operations within the application. Again by example, I don’t care how I move around the buttons in the Word toolbars…each button still performs the task it was intended for, while the toolbar it resides in has merely changed for a different organization that I prefer.

User customization would then be more for creating new buttons specific to other capabilities. Another example: Let’s say I create 10 actions that I use frequently in my workflow (hobbyflow?) and I assign them to the F1-F10 keys. Looking at the keys, I see meaningless labels…F1, F2, etc. But, what if I instead created a button icon that was quickly recognizable for each of those 10 actions, and then grouped them onto a toolbar? Hmmmm…maybe now I can just hide that Actions palette and use a more space-conscious toolbar. What about the palette buttons mode though?…well, sure, but it still takes up more space than I care to give up. Oh, and those other 90 actions I’ve got? I like this…I could group them into toolbars to be enabled/disabled according to the tasks for which they are used, and perhaps even save the toolbar states as part of my Workspace presets. Things could indeed get confusing, but I think there could also be a wealth of efficiency offered to power users of Photoshop. Of course, other considerations still factor in…those actions mapped into each toolbar are only valid if the related action set has been loaded, thus redefining F1-F10 appropriately. That leads to even more ideas…but I’ll stop there. Ha!

This is an engineer brainstorming for a moment on capabilities he’d likely never use, or rarely so. But, where one person has an idea they might never use, another may see that as something they could exploit to great benefit…if it were only truly available.

As for your comment about those small icons in my example earlier, I wonder if you were viewing that image at full scale? If you’re using IE6 as your browser, it may be autoscaling the image to fit your the window and indeed the icons would be unreadable. Although the icons are still smallish when the image is viewed at its full 1280px width, that size works well for me. Obviously they’d appear larger on lower-res screen settings. So long as buttons can be readily distiguished from one another and are large enough to readily select, I think they can often be kept smaller than one would think. What happens over time is that you simply learn to associate the look of the button with the command it invokes, and the actual detail of the button image is secondary. But, it still more readily triggers the memory as to what command is executed than would an "F1", "F2", etc. Similarly, a "back" or "forward" button is visually much more intuitive and less demanding on one’s memory than is "Alt-Ctrl-Z" or "Shift-Ctrl-Z". Then again, clicking on an earlier history state is pretty darn easy too. 🙂

By the way, while I do like easily recognizable buttons, there are quite a few icons I created for PhotoBars that remain rather nondescript. For example, I don’t believe anyone would say these buttons appear intuitive… <http://jazzdiver.com/photoshop/artistic_filters.jpg> 🙂

For providing quick access to existing commands in Photoshop, PhotoBars works great. For providing truly custom-defined keys for keystroke sequences, Extensis outright failed in that effort and never provided a solution.

Christine, I might say "you’re happy with your piano"…and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. No matter what sheet of music is laid before you, you know which keys to play and where they’re found. It is as efficient as you need it to be. Still others will enjoy taking that same sheet music over to their electric keyboard…it powers up and sounds and plays like a piano, but they have the option of making it sound like whatever instrument better serves their own tastes.

Anybody think maybe this is a dull Thursday night for me? HA!

Cheers,

Daryl

I’m not a fan of Extensis PhotoTools. I tried it for about a week, but it wasn’t a good fit for me. I’m a keyboard shortcut guy.

I’m pretty dang happy with the Photoshop GUI as it ships, right out of the box.

I’m greatly enjoying following this thread.

That said, though, cheers to you, Daryl, for your continued work on the PhotoBars. Somebody, somewhere would probably like to give you a medal for maintaining a tool that allows them to work in a way that suits them. (Deny the tiara and sash, though. They just look wrong on anyone—and especially men—over 25 years old 😉 )

Thanks to you, Christine, for your thoughts.

Cheers to you, Chris, for maintaining your attention to the thread.

Thanks, Daryl, for keeping the PhotoBars alive. They are the best thing that ever happened to (my) Photoshop.

Phosphor and Pope,

Thanks for the compliments. I’m glad that I have been able to help preserve PhotoBars for those who do use them. Curiously enough, it has been since I took on that effort thave I’ve also become a bit more proficient in using the keyboard shortcuts. Given that I don’t use Photoshop quite enough to really learn all the shortcuts, what I like about PhotoBars is that the buttons give a visual cue to the command they invoke. So, there is less need for relying on one’s memory. As I only use two toolbars, any concerns I’d have regarding loss of workspace are negligible. One thing I’ve never done is compared the usable amount of workspace with toolbars active, versus inactive. For my 1280×1024 screen resolution, here’s what I measured:

1248×882 – One docked toolbar each on top and left edge of workspace, Options bar and Status bar both active, palettes hidden

1280×914 – No toolbars, Optons bar and Status bar both active, palettes hidden.

So, for a 5.9% loss of workspace that I barely feel affected by (not to say others wouldn’t), I gain one-click access to about 88 menu commands or 2nd-tier menus. For my preferences, the tradeoff is worthwhile.

Definitely no tiara, Phosphor…my balding head already catches enough reflections. 🙂

I’ll probably endeavor to maintain PhotoBars for as long as the no-longer supported PhotoTools remains a working plug-in for Photshop. If and when Adobe does anything with Photoshop’s code that affects PhotoTools and prevents the PhotoBars from being accessible, then they’ll be dead. That is, since my efforts don’t involve modifying software (I’m no software developer), then PhotoBars may survive as long as no software mods are required.

Regards,

Daryl

Daryl – actually, the rambling was helpful.

Thanks Chris….I try to be constructive with my comments, even when a tangent is taken here or there.

Now, about those holographic toolbars I’m wanting… 🙂

Daryl

Holographic tool bars would be nice, especially if you adopted something like the office assistant (paperclip) but instead of a hokey icon used something say like oh..Jude Law with his shirt off instead!

Things have to be gender-neutral these days. Gotta have a button that toggles between Jude and Charlize Theron!

How about customizable fantasy holograms…you pick whomever…adobe provides the code. Work would be so much more fun!! (Sort of like when the liquify tool first showed up and you liquified pix of your boss for the first two weeks!)

What have I started? Ha! Well, I dare say that if I could create customizable holograms of the Charlize Theron sort, I’d never get anything productive done in Photoshop. What a beautiful woman she is! Then again, I guess I’d have to make a Shakira hologram too.

Hmmm…no, actually I suppose such efforts as these might find me wanting more to learn about 3D rendering applications. 🙂

I suppose such efforts as these might find me wanting more to learn about 3D rendering applications.

and pulling your hair out for more power on your system! (ref. Weird Science, the movie)

Ummm…Dave…that’s as if I had much hair to begin pulling out! At least Photoshop gives me a way to preview how I might look if I pulled out what little hair I’ve still got: <http://jazzdiver.com/photoshop/ps_shave.gif>

😀

Daryl

Daryl–

That’s scary! Keep what little you’ve got, and add more RAM!

My thought exactly Christine! That was done as part of an April Fool’s joke for my neices. They turned it around on me when they said they liked the new "cut". Oops!

"Here’s a dummied-up example, <http://jazzdiver.com/photoshop/pstoolbar.jpg> , using some icons from PhotoBars, and it does look rather cluttered, but I still question whether that area of the window would be usable for such a purpose."

This is exactly what I would want.

I don’t know that but I happened to find a great tutorial cd that will help you in this matter. http://www.siliconlogics.com/photoshop.htm

I just bought Adobe InDesign CS, and whadaya know… the Tools Palette is configurable and can be a single column either vertically or horizontally by simply double-clicking it, the very thing that Photoshop should have. So enough of the excuses — Adobe already does it in another "CS" product, so why isn’t it in its flagship program?

I don’t know how to retore toolbar on photoshop 6- any help the upper one that uses filter I pressed something probably

double click the eye icon?

Hello,
My tired old brain is about to explode from frustration as I have lost the tool bars that I used to have at the top of my screen.(Photoshop 6.0) I can’t find a reset to restore them.
One of the tool bars that I can’t find is the one that popped up when using the edit/ transform/scale command. When I used to use that set of commands a bar showing the % of scale and a button locking the H & W also showed up. Where did it go and how do i get it back????
Could i have lost it in one of my poor computer’s crashes??

Eagerly awaiting a response….
B

Hi Bev,

I’m not sure, but I wonder if you’re referring to the Options palette? What you’re descrbing isn’t what I think of as a toolbar, but that’s just my opinion. Assuming it is the Options palette, perhaps you disabled it without realizing so. In that case, just go to the Window menu and enable the Options Palette from there. The Options Palette is context-sensitive, changing the options provided based upon the tool in use, and I believe you’ll find it provides you with the Transform options you’re looking for. Apart from this, the only "toolbars" I’m familiar with for Photoshop are those provided via the Extensis PhotoTools plug-in as the Photobars component.

Hope that helps,

Daryl

Daryl,

Thank you so much! Your advice solved the problem. It was the options palette. thanks
Bev

Happy to help Bev…glad that solved things for you.

Daryl