Depends what press and paper its going on.
When you’re editing your RGB image, you are editing pixel values, not ink densities. If you are reading Total Ink in your Info Palette, it’s only reflecting the value you would get if you converted to CMYK with whatever profile you had loaded in your Color Settings at the time. It sounds like your actual conversion profile is different, and the Fogra profile you chose had a total ink limit of 340 percent or so. If that’s too much, use a Fogra profile with a lower ink limit.
Olivier,
Also, work closely with your printer to be sure you are optimizing for his pressroom conditions.
Neil
Thanks for the replies, however it’s still strange that the printer advised me to use ISO Fogra coated wit a maximum ink use of 300% but after correcting the images (max white 242 and so on) I converted the images to that particular profile and did a readout of 340% ink use. Thus this mean that the profile ain’t right? I’ll ask the printer to help me out and the guys form Ghent if I can reach them.
Olivier
just save that profile with a 300% limit
Buko,
How do you save that profile with a new ink limit?
I’m not quite getting that. How does using the save button alter the ink limits on the Fogra profile? Maybe I just don’t know how to do that.
I forgot to say that later versions of Photoshop should ship with a web coated and a coated profile that differ in total ink limits, you may not need to download other profiles.
One can of course manually edit the TIL in the CMYK file, however it is best all round to get things right in the initial separation if you can. This means finding/using the right profile, until Photoshop can modify a standard print condition ICC profile, just like it can make flexible adjustments with the outdated non-ICC legacy CMYK engine.
Stephen Marsh
save the Fogra profile with a 300% ink limit.
don’t save over the original profile save another like Fogra 300% so you know the difference.
Buko –
Can you do a step-by-step walk-through of your process of saving an existing ICC profile with a new ink limit? I’m with Peter; I’m not quite getting it.
As far as I know, it is not possible to do this with the tools available within Photoshop. But I may be missing something.
Thanks
Go to custom CMYK in color settings. it will reflect the last chosen profile.
change to 300%.
save
That’s what I thought you might say. Sorry, it just doesn’t work that way. The two dialogs are completely independent of one another. There’s no way to edit an ICC profile in Ps. For some reason this myth persists even so many years.
You either find a Fogra profile that fits your description, or you dump the existing one into Profilemaker or the equivalent application and actually build a new profile based on the measurement date contained within the profile, with the parameters you need.
Well I have never used Fogra, but I have used that for changing US standard profiles for ink coverage and never had a problem.
Unfortunately you just thought you were changing standard supplied profiles in Ps. That it worked for you was only a happy accident. Try converting to something like SWOP 20 % Dot Gain in Custom CMYK and then Assigning SWOPv2. Both claim SWOP familiarity and yet VERY different colors.
It’s not just Fogra, it’s any icc profile. The problem with Custom CMYK is that no one really knows what it’s based on in terms of measured data. It’s been kludged over the years and apparently even plugging in your own L*a*b data in the appropriate slots does not create a result you would might expect.
pfigen,
I agree.
Also BinaryFX’ advice in #10,
"One can of course manually edit the TIL in the CMYK file"
is just a recipe for disaster. A blind man may ss well do the editing, for all the control there is over such a process.
Any customer who brings me a job and says, "Oh, the ink levels are wrong. Just go into the CMYK files and edit them ’till it runs right on press," would be told he owes the full price for the job BEFORE it ever goes to press, absolutely no refund, and the same again with each round of edits.
Rich
Richard Rose wrote in reply to my side note on an obvious hack, about being able to edit the TIL in a CMYK file (as an alternative or last resort option):
is just a recipe for disaster. A blind man may ss well do the editing,
for all the control there is over such a process. <<
I disagree Richard (hardly a recipe for disaster and a lot of control can be used).
That being said, I can’t comment on the skill and knowledge of unknown users and their images and how they may go about changing the TIL – so perhaps for these folk it is a recipe for disaster and blind. Not so for me and others I know if it has to be done.
Stephen Marsh
Well I thought it was just changing the ink limit. so when I read the info after a conversion from RGB the total ink is equal to or less than whatever % is inserted.
If this is not what the function of that dialog is for, what’s the point of having it?
And I always ask what the ink levels are supposed to be first.
It all depends upon what your expectations are and your clients. Adjustments or profiles do the same thing – sometimes one works better then the other.
OK,
Do you have any experience running a 4C press? A high speed web?
Just what standards do you use when taking a set of 4C separations from 300% TIL to 240%?
Even if you also know how much GCR or UCR there is in the file (which is actually unlikely), how in the world do you manually and independently adjust the color channels and black to maintain any of that information and relationships?
Sorry, any expectation that one can manually adjust CMYK files on the fly is naive at the very best.
As I said, in my shop, you would have to pay for the full job, up front, for the opportunity to dabble like that.
Rich
Yeah Just changing TIL numbers Willy Nilly is a recipe for disaster, most print shops will supply you with their profile. The only time I have changed the ink number is when I was directed to by the prepress. it was the uncoated web profile. It was this situation that led me to believe this was OK.
Everything looked did correct, of coarse it was on newsprint. Can’t say I’ve done it on a high quality press work as I have always been supplied the profile the printer wanted me to use.
Buko – the CustomCMYK dialog is for creating new profiles based on the Photoshop 2.5 color engine. CustomCMYK does not read existing ICC profiles, whatever you started with is thrown away. CustomCMYK does not produce results anywhere near the current Adobe profiles.
(as if I needed an illustration of why I want to get rid of that dialog….)
And that being said, there are still some scenarios where it can do the job. Getting rid of it without an improved version would be a bad idea. Just because you don’t like it and can’t use it doesn’t mean that there are not others who have figured out when it does do them good.
Just one area would be printing screen shots where you want the blacks to remain 100K only. While I have all the tools to re-engineer almost any existing ICC profile for total ink an black generation, most out there do not, and so far Adobe’s existing profiles are of only one degree of black generation and ink limit.
Chris – you’ve never really answered me when several times I’ve mentioned something akin to the Imation CFM. I know Stephen has too. That’s the type of model that would seem to make the most sense, and if Imation could figure out a way to do it, I’m sure someone at Adobe could too.
There are other uses that I’m sure Stephen can delve into, as he is extremely knowledgeable but one is good enough for now.
most print shops will supply you with their profile.
cough cough…
I guess I’ve been working with the wrong shops then. B)
If you are supplying a job to a printery, wouldn’t they have profiled their presses/RIP (as we have) and set their own TIL?
If I understand the pipe-dream of best workflow, you would prepare your art in RGB and export to the printer’s CMYK (or let them do it) and if you had imagery with a RGB 0,0,0 it would convert to close to TIL in their profile? The same would presumably apply for non ‘safe cmyk’ output…
So why this obsession about forcing your TIL on the printers?
Phil,
I wish all printers actually did profile their presses and proofers, but the reality is, is the ones who do are still few and far between. In addition, too many of those that actually have their own profiles don’t know how to make them correctly. All too often I see profiles are built with application defaults – usually not the best.
Yeah, I thought that was the angle you were all coming from… Ours is quite old and not quite correct but better than generic. They can never compensate for different stock, weather or personnel on the press, but in principle they work as a starting point.
To those who are unclear about setting TIL for offset, we aim for 320-340 max on jobs requiring high quality result. Under 300 we see a loss of contrast.
We dont check every job, just the important ones and the suspicious looking ones. We are fortunate to have a good solid clientele of experienced designers but even they still need some assistance with TIL on the fancy jobs.
Re: Richard Rose, I see that your Schwartz is bigger than mine! 🙂
I am not here for a pissing contest and you make a lot of absolute statements (to save egg on face, I learned to try to limit that long ago).
Each to their own, just because you don’t how to do something does not mean that others are limited to the same degree.
Stephen Marsh
Stephen,
I made a lot of absolute statements? Really?
I said that editing a CMYK file to adjust TIL is a recipe for disaster.
My questions about operating a press weren’t rhetorical. As opposed to all those supposed ham-fisted printers that designers like to characterize as clueless because they don’t know how to profile a press, I’ve had a bit of experience in that field, and I’d be glad to discuss it if you would like.
I know what it is like to try to force a Speedmaster to match the color that a set of separations have produced on proofing material(s) that has a relationship to the press’ characteristics under a very narrow set of conditions, none of which match the ones the files adhere to.
I’ve dealt with jobs that had files that came in from multiple sources, some still RGB (with no profiles) some CMYK that had been converted by God knows what process. I’ve had all the fruitless conversations with designers, trying to explain color theory and color management to them, only to be told their files were "perfect." I’ve experienced the frustration of trying to get designers to use MY press profiles for jobs that were going to run on MY presses only to be informed that other, INDUSTRY STANDARD, profiles had already been applied.
And, yes, I’ve also had all the conversations with the ones who claimed that all that had to be done to get their sheet fed prepared jobs to run on the web press and vice-versa, was for us to make some "adjustments" to the files.
I and my graphics department, all of whom were very familiar with our press characteristics, have edited Mystery Meat files because we had no choice.
I’ve also enjoyed the relative stress-free atmosphere of an environment in which we produce and control every file that goes to press in our completely color-managed work flow.
So instead of imagining that YOUR "Schwartz" is bigger by claiming that I "don’t know how to do something," how about actually answering my question about how to edit a CMYK file so that TIL is changed from one specific value to another specified level, AND controlling other characteristics of the file so the image looks like the proof the customer demands it match? I’m just a dumb printer. Please. Educate me.
Rich
Educate you?
Sure –
Start off by telling Adobe marketing to pull their head out of their ass and embrace a global solution that caters to the majority of print environments. Half the problem is the printers themselves. The other half is the software and how it’s geared towards individuality.
I have said this time and time again and it will keep on coming up until it’s addressed.
Mike,
Have you had any luck in direct contact with Adobe yet? I know this is the route you were attempting.
Neil
I’m with Buko on this. You can change the ink limit, I’ve done it many times bringing down a CMYK files that had a 300 ink limit down to 240 or 280 for some Web presses.
You can’t change the ink limit number in the color setting dialog and re-save the file and it’s done…NO!!!!
There is one more step you need to do so that the new ink limit kicks in. You have to change the file mode to RGB (if it was a CMYK file) and then back to CMYK. It is this RGB to CMYK change that make the ink limit settings kick in.
Anybody can do this test on their computer.
Neal –
It will take an act of God for people to see the light. Even if I was a patron saint – the trust factor is completely lacking because the company has become to large to fathom what really needs to happen for its users.
Nobody really understands or cares at Adobe Neil…
I’m willing to admit I’m wrong in this aspect. especially after Chris Coxes comment. I was under the impression that I was changing the ink limit of the last used profile. apparently CC says no.
so This should be a feature request maybe being able to change the ink limit of an existing profile.
Rene and Buko,
For some reason this myth has persisted even by people who should know better. It’s been well documented ever since Ps 5.0, but a lot of folks just want to believe what they want to believe.
If you really want to see how different the two methods are, and think you actually are just changing the ink limits of the ICC profile, all you have to do is make a conversion with one and assign the other to see the huge tonal and color shift. When you actually rebuild the profile in something like ProfileMaker and do the same convert/assign test, the on screen image stays virtually identical because it’s using the same measurement data for both.
Peter I’m willing to admit I was wrong, have only changed TIL when I was directed to. And like I said it looked good.
Yes, there will be tonal and color shift, but your ink limit will still be 240% or 280% or whatever you changed it to.
If colors are important to you then you shouldn’t print on crappy paper using Web presses.
Am I missing something here?
Rene,
Yes you are missing that the color shift is not from printing on a lower grade paper, it’s from two profile using entirely different measurement data to generate their respective profiles, and therefore really have nothing to do with each other. You still may be missing the key part of this discussion – that the ICC dialog box is not related in any way, shape or means to the Custom CMYK dialog, and that the assumption that it was, was false.
The basic purpose of TIL is to have enough ink to show the largest gamut within drying/trapping limits on a particular stock, so any printer wanting max quality will adjust TIL.
It is quite simple to adjust TIL (in an image, not in a profile) but requires adjustment of every image and when you have 300 images in a book that is a lot of time.
You could change the profile TIL and convert but good profile does not fix a bad image, you still need to do tonal adj.
Also, I dont see how changing a TIL in a profile not made for a particular press is going to help… you will be supplying a mismatched profile with a TIL based on the designer’s guess… I suppose it moves the job closer to the target but is not ‘correct’.
you are missing that the color shift is not from printing on a lower grade paper…
You misunderstood what I wrote.
the ICC dialog box is not related in any way, shape or means to the Custom CMYK dialog, and that the assumption that it was, was false
I agree with that. I never implied otherwise, I don’t think.
What I meant is that if you didn’t print your job on a Web Press you wouldn’t have this problem in the first place.
Nothing personal but that is a stupid statement.
Yes, sorry, that was a stupid way of saying it.
I meant Web presses on porous paper as opposed to sheet-fed presses on high quality paper.
What about Web on high quality?
Mike,
it’s about how to package existing features so people can use the tools without thinking too much about it.
If only….! We can quickly set up complex HDTV systems with a few easy settings; we can take advantage of all the behind-the-scenes auto safety and performance technology without thinking about it.
But we can’t get color to consistently match from camera to paper.
Neil
Mike,
It probably won’t change in our working lifetimes. I wish the people who used to be important in the industry were still here. But they’re not.
Stack it up as another problem to solve on Obama’s plate. Mebbe he can fix it. Everyone else seems to think he’s gonna be able to pull miracles out of the air.
Rich
Neal –
The technology works. The implementation has too many holes in it and artist are pigs for the most part.
I’m not offering a 100% success rate. I’m offering a much higher rate of reliability with higher cosistancy for all users involved in a project.
I have been doing this crap for over 10 years and counting and I KNOW what the hell I am taking about at this point in my career.
Mike,
The technology works. The implementation has too many holes in it and artist are pigs for the most part.
No disagreement here at all! It’s always been my contention that too much time is spent in art schools on how to make a pretty portfolio, and not enough is spent on other real-world aspects, including production, typography, marketing, and running a business.
Neil
It’s the relationships between, artist, tools, marketing and engineers in a global market. I understand the Planet idiotology.
Adobe does not.
Expecting art types to educated themselves is akin to asking a penguin to stop eating fish.
Mike,
Care to be more specific?
Are you sure what you’ve experienced does not have a geographic influence.
That is, do the same practices prevail in the Bay Area as in L.A., as in Chicago, as in New York?
Rich
I deal with projects on a global scale Rich. Singapore, China, US, Canada, Europe, and even India now. Who knows what next…it’s ever growing.
You work in commercial print and so do I – mine just is all over the place.
I can be more specific, but if Adobe personal are not interested, what the fuck is the point.
Well,
I’m no dentist. I’m not very good at pulling teeth.
You want Photoshop to control the work flow in ways it doesn’t do now?
yes = same but different. Seamless
Exactly Rich –
I have done my part.
They want to know – they know where to get a hold of me. If not, I still make money.
