Oh, wait! Now I made another Grayscale image and filled a square with 100% k and the Info Palette reads 100% k. Altering the CMYK Black Ink limit and dot gain seems to have an effect somtimes and not at others. I thought I had this color management stuff down; but, now I am really confused with this most basic example.
Another test…Went back to US Prepress Defaults. Created a new Grayscale doc. Filled one square with 100% k and another with 50% k. The 50% k square reads as 50% k in the Info Palette; the 100% k square reads as 91% k. What gives?
Set up your info palette to read total ink and definitely use curves instead of levels. The first thing you need to know is the TAC (total area coverage) the paper is looking for. Newsprint is usually 230% – 240%. I use a very simple formula with curves: Adjust the shadows (Input 100) until your darkest shadows reads 230-240% when you sample the darkest area (I usually end up about 82). Next adjust the midtones (Input 50) until you are satisfied with the contrast – remember what those veloxes looked like? I usually end up with Output about 25. There are plenty more considerations but this is a good starting place.
Grayscale does not read the same as a cmyk file. In cmyk if you have a mixture of 30 20 20 100 that is 170 TAC. Turn that file into grayscale and your TAC changes dramatically – I just tried it and it turned into 294. I also use US PrePress Defaults due to the enormous type of publications I have to run in.
I can’t give you the technical explanation for the grayscale phenomenon, I’m sure someone here will post it and I will be really happy to know. I can only tell you from practical experience that if you know the TAC that the paper wants and use curves to hit that and then tame your midtones, you’re going to be just fine. GOOD LUCK!
peace
Okay. Here’s a follow up.
Choose 30% Dot Gain for Grayscale in Color Settings. Create a new Grayscale image. Make a rectangular selection. Click the Default Black and White button at the bottom of the tool bar. Fill the area with the Foreground color (black). Now, band a new rectangular selection. Click on the Foreground color box and enter 0c, 0m, 0y, 100k. Now fill the selection with the new foreground color. The first black is 100% k. The second accounts for the dot gain (or just accounts for a lighter black) and is 91% k. WHY?! This is a Grayscale image. 100% k should be 100% Black in grayscale. Is the info palette correct? If I make film will the 91% k still be 91% k?
(Perhaps this should go under the Color Management forum…)
Check this thread and see if it answers your question:
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http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?128@@.2ccde375>
I believe it has something to do with separating ink black in grayscale mode from CMYK which is built on a total ink limit rich black. It’s mainly for preview purposes because absolute black on a monitor must map to rich CMYK black and grayscale black made in CMYK selection in the color picker is showing you the ink limit black preview and data of CMYK black.
All dot gain adjustments are done at the RIP and are not previewed or presented in the data-WYZIWYG. With color management you don’t need to be compensating for dot gain by eyeing the data anyway. That’s old school velox flash and bump exposure hell. Been there, done that.
Trust your preview in Proof Setup Custom under the View menu and select your grayscale profile, paper white and black ink and start editing from the preview not the numbers.
This works best if you know what the default Adobe 30% dot gain looks like on your press. You may have to build a custom profile to get an even more accurate preview to edit by.
Thank Adobe for delivering us from velox hell.
Thanks, Tim! That is very helpful. A follow up question, please…
So, I’ll set my Dot Gain at 30% (or 35%) for newsprint and agjust the image until the print looks good. Now, the deepest shadow reads as 100%k. Is that as it should be? I would like it 100%k when it eventually shows up in the paper; but, if I make a test film or paper proof, will I have a tone lighter than 100%k? I think I should, because soemwhere between an 85% and 92% dot is probably going to go to solid black i newsprint.
Trust the preview and never mind the numbers.
How do you trust the RGB preview of the dot gain characteristics of a press?
Get an RGB image file that the pub used to print to their presses along with its print and see what you have to do in Proof Setup to make it look like their print without editing it-(select any newsprint profile or use Adobe’s dot gain/newsprint profiles, select paper white and/or black ink to make the image visualy match).
Or run a test print of your image off their press or ask the pub for the settings they use in PS to convert RGB to their press space. Don’t be concerned about compensating for 100% black. You can’t edit what you don’t know. So, if you don’t know visualy the dot gain characteristics of your press, out guessing it is a waist of time and energy.
To print a proof to your inkjet there are a myriad of option settings right off hand I can’t remember exactly. I believe you can use Proof Setup’s preview as the source in PS’s color management print conversion engine. This would be the most efficient way for your specific workflow over having to convert a copy of the file to your proof printer space.
However, if your proof printer is with a third party, you’ll need to get their profile to convert a copy to for an accurate proof of the press in question. You may need to play around with conversion intent by selecting Perceptual, Relative or Absolute Colorimetric to see what it does to the preview for the most accurate emulation of the press from the third party print proofer.
Try this tutorial:
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http://www.creativepro.com/printerfriendly/story/15310.html>
All this is very true about color profiles guys but in reality there are a lot of newspapers out there that won’t supply or honor color profiles. The most prominent one I can think of is the LA Times. I run in it all the time and have to watch those ink densities in the info palette. It’s the only practical way to "guess" what’s going to happen with their press. I also know from experience that in their case the magenta is going to be a little hot. If you ask them for a profile, they will tell you they don’t have one and don’t honor yours. They have a TAC limit of 240% and if I hit that and back down the magenta input from 100 to 95 and then deal with the midtones, I get good results. My department ran 2500 ads last year in hundreds of newspapers all around the country. We can barely get dimensions from that many pubs let alone profiles so in my case I just have to know how newprint reacts in general and deal accordingly.
peace
Paul,
Do you get tear sheets from each 2500 pubs? Do they all look the same? Do they all have the same magenta characteristics and TAC requirements you described or do you have to correct for each individual pub’s characteristics? If so, that seems very labor intensive to me. How would you control color for each 2500 ads sent out?
I guess if you’re doing that kind of volume, even compensating by the numbers for all those papers wouldn’t help you, anyway. Too many variables involved. Then in that case color management wouldn’t be workable, either. It’s not for everyone’s workflow, I guess.
Heck, since it IS newsprint, does anybody really care what it looks like? I used to shoot B&W halftone veloxes/stats for ONE entertainment rag back in the ’80’s and I could never get predictable consistency from page to page and issue to issue no matter what dot size I tried to compensate for on camera. Contrast was the hardest to control. Close enough was close enough.
To me profiles seem so much easier to deal with because you can use them for preview purposes only if you so desire. You can embed profiles for your own preview purposes, not necessarily for someone elses in this case. If you know what a general look is to most of the newsprint pubs, then just use Proof Setup as a preview and make your adjustments based on that.
I think the general idea of profiles is nice for general proofing… but, converting from a color rgb to grayscale still left me with 100% k. I think that is not the number expected to be seen in press (well, it is…I mean, 99%k is not the final off-press number), but rather the dot expected to be on the plate, or there abouts. So, I am backing of the shadow dot manually to 92% (which isn’t much for newsprint, I think) and going with it. It makes the on-screen preview seem a little flat; but, so be it. I’ll let you know how it prints. Thanks everyone!
You might find it useful to set Color Sampler eyedropper points in your shadow, highlight and quarter-tone areas and set their read-outs in the Info palette to show "Total Ink".
Then, when you apply a curve, you can see exactly what effect it will have on TAC.
But, the Total Ink doesn’t seem to apply in Grayscale. Please correct me if I am wrong. I look at the Total Ink Coverage and see 300% when hoverng over a 100% black area. Now, if that black prings 100% black, it seems to me that the Total Ink Coverage is goinf to be 100%, not the 300% as shown in the Info Palette.
Bob Faulkner – It sounds like you know the process must include the run at press. You discovered, as I did, that a ‘milky’ velox always prints best on newsprint. I can’t give you numbers because, to me, it is a visual phenomena to discover what will happen when a job passes through departments and winds up on paper. My guess is that you will take your ‘lighter’ results and use them, based on your experience, and see the job come out perfect on the press. Record your numbers and use your results as a formula.
Nothing like reality – I always say.
The numbers boys/girls will kill me for saying it.
Tim – Yes I get tear sheets and of course they never look the same. You are totally right about "close enough". But there are similarities. I’m just trying to describe what seems to work across the board. Newsprint is one of the most heart-breaking mediums you can work with. I don’t tweak magenta except in LA Times – because I live here and have run a lot I know what to expect. I also tweak cyan in the LA Weekly. I’m not running in 2500+ pubs, it’s 2500 insertions in 100+ pubs. Still daunting. Do I care what all these papers look like? I have to. But the sheer number of papers I run in does render careful color management null and void. I have to look at TAC which is very consistent in newsprint – 230-240% max in the darkest shadows – about 7% in the lightest highlights.
Bob – Total ink is just as important in Grayscale. If you throw what you are calling 100% black into a newspaper, I guarantee you that you will be using too much ink and that nice black you’re looking at on screen will turn into mud. You want to have the picture a little sharper, with a little more contrast than seems natural. The midtones will just wipe you out if you don’t knock them down. I don’t know if the paper you’re talking about will get you some proofs, but most will with enough lead time. That’s how I deal with the NY Times and LA Times when I have expensive full pages going in. Using what I have described, I rarely have to re-adjust my curves anymore, I just want to cover my back and get an approval from the lovely marketers. GOOD LUCK!
peace
From what Paul says, the 30% dot gain profile is not very accurate then. The question is, which would be better (more accurate)?…build your own custom dot gain profile or just use curve adjusts?
Utilizing a custom dot gain curve profile would seem to be less destructive over the curve edit and converting to halftone route.
Do whatever works.
Thanks for the advice, Paul.
One think I noticed: the Total Ink displayed in the Info Palette seems to varies depending on the Total Ink Limit entered in the CMYK Working Space Profile (in Color Settings). Funny thing is I didn’t have to change the Dot Gain value in the CMYK setup to change the Total Ink reading in the Info Palette.
Color management buffs: have you noticed that Adobe does not seem to supply a profile for Newsprint? (in case I were ever working in color newsprint…)
I find Dan knows a lot about Dan, and not much about profiles and software behavior.
I’ve found when going to newsprint get the dot gain profile and total ink from the printer. Now when I set my shadow I adjust it just like any other half tone 95% dot in the shadows 3-5% dot in the highlights then I adjust the mids for looks. You cant go wrong.
For CMYK the highlights are 5,3,3,0. I always set my info to read CMYK and grayscale and if my shadows read 95% everything comes out looking good.
Before profiles I set everything to 87% shadow dot and before computers I shot my film and or PMTs to an 85% shadow dot to get evverything looking good on news print.
There is much to be said for working with a printer over a number of years and learning what that particular shop can and will do with any given file. But I must say its amazing when you can send a file by email to a printer across the country and when you see the printed piece It looks just like you wanted it to look.
Getting total ink and dot gain from 100+ newspapers when there are 20 marketers who don’t understand what you’re talking about between the printer and you is pretty tough. I took the 230-240% from those whose spec sheets I could get and the tear sheets show it’s pretty consistent across the board. I totally agree that it is amazing to send this stuff around the country and get any kind of consistent results. When I’m making my ad mats I prepare two version of the photo – one for newsprint and one for glossy media. Then I adjust the backgrounds accordingly for magazine ads or newsprint. In general these days I like to use as little ink as possible to achieve the result so a lot of fiddling about isn’t that necessary. I guess it’s a little like the fact that I used to love Guinness and now I like a good pilsner
peace
Well, our little black-and-white photo finally published and it does look a bit flat and washed out; but, I see several images in the same paper that look a bit better and many of them have pure blacks. Ours was a bit flatter and lighter, just as it appeared on screen. So, I believe I should assume that 100 percent black when using a 30% dot gain means that when the images print in the paper that part will be 100 percent black and that it is probably now acceptable to have part of an image 100 percent black in newsprint. I’m going to try the full with wysiwyg next time; it seems to be the way to go. Thanks everyone!
Use Paper White and Ink Black in Soft Proof Setup Custom with your dot gain profile of choice loaded to get more accurate look.
You might play around with other CMYK profiles to see if you can get that same look you get with that particular newspaper. Proof Setup is really handy this way.
Bob – Sorry it didn’t work out the way you wanted it to. Newspapers are tricky! Best of luck on your next attempt, I would be interested in how it works out
peace
Color settings!! If you set your color settings to 2 different profiles and convert 1 and go back in your history then change your color settings and convert again you will see that your grayscale file changes it max density also. Your color settings also play into your color picker default. 1) Go into your color settings set it with some bogus profile. 2) Hit d for default and then click on it to see the max density of your 4 colors. c85m75y75k90. Then go back to your color settings (shift apple k) and change it to something else. See step #2. You will see a different set of values with the defult numbers.
