I here K-mart has a sale on Crayons.
Oh yeah?
Does anyone have an answer that DOESN’T promote the computer person stereotype?
Thanks again, gang.
Dave
look dude.
profile the printer.
profile the monitor.
assign a color space to the image that you like so you can see what the printer will produce.
Convert from working space to printer space.
Print away.
It’s easy, once you have all the questionables figured out. Getting there is another story.
btw.
If I had a push button solution, I’d make millions.
I don’t so trial and error will be your educator.
Hi Dave –
Ok, let’s start with the basics then –
Can you post the CMYK breakdown of your yellow?
Cheers
Andrew
Any random numbers printed on a device will give you random colors.
You need to profile the printer so you know what those numbers mean to you.
Hey Mike –
I bet if you REALLY typed that message, it means you can also read, yes?
"I’m not very good with computers"
Funny, I used to know an Ornellas where I lived.
He was an asshat, too.
If you’re not very good with computers, than your not going to be very good with color.
IF you don’t take the driving test, the state in which you live won’t issue a drivers license. You can drive, but you’d probably suck at it.
And no, I’m not an ass hole, but a realist and shall always tell you how it is.
It’s up to to you to decide your opinion.
Color is a complex and subject topic so thinking that there is an easy fix for everything in short order is foolish.
I didn’t say hole, I said hat.
Anyway, the guy is here for help. You’re not helping.
I dunno, maybe you’re just some kind of misunderstood genius or something.
Andrew,
I understand that the guy needs help. That’s what the forums are for.
but trying to fix someone’s color issues over a forum with an unlimited number of variables is really difficult. That difficulty is compounded by the fact that this guy is not computer savvy.
We can make suggestions and point them to web sites to help, but ultimately, it will take that person who needs help, to take things into their own hands and pound their skull until the light bulb comes on.
<
http://www.digitaldog.net>
Help me print a bright yellow.
OK
How bright?
What hue?
What dot shape?
What ink set are you using?
What paper?
What color space are you using to assign source?
WTF?
be realistic………
"I have a yellow that isn’t quite right. It looks a little orange."
"Can you tell me the CMYK?"
"Sure, 0,15,100,0."
"Make that 15 zero, and see if that helps."
I swear, Mike, some people just frigging LOVE to make things as complicated as possible right at the outset. What difference does the PAPER make if the color isn’t right to start with?
Please spare me the "mad skillz" nonsense and follow your own advice.
"What difference does the PAPER make if the color isn’t right to start with?"
It’s all in the destination, once that is established, only then can you start to get the ‘right’ color.
Paper stock makes a HUGE difference because the paper may have optical brighteners that cast colors in an undesirable direction or how much ink is adsorbed will make some colors look dead.
You are evaluating the image because it is reflecting light. Paper, plays a bigger role than you think.
ALSO,
What light are you looking at the print under?
Florescent? IF so, what color temp?
You see, it’s not that simple….
Fortunately yellow is one of the forgiving colors…if it’s too orange, simply turn the M down.
But if there are problems hitting a specific blue, you’re really up the creek.
One other not so small thing: how yellow is your yellow ink on your paper? You can’t get yellower than that
JASON!!!
HAVEN’T YOU BEEN PAYING ATTENTION?
We need to know paper stock, color temperature, ink density, dot shape, relative humidity, and so forth, before considering making such a teensy little change like you’re suggesting.
After all, it’s not that simple. Mike says so.
"HAVEN’T YOU BEEN PAYING ATTENTION?"
Yes – HAVENT YOU READ MY FIRST POST!?
"After all, it’s not that simple. Mike says so."
You think he’s joking – now try to hit a Pantone 293C (in 4 color) and get back with me.
(On most media I can hit it, can you?)
Sorry gang,
I didn’t mean to start a flame war.
The cmyk color numbers are c=5 m=0 y=100 k=0. The dpi is 300. The paper is HP Premium Plus Glossy Photo Paper. In color settings, I have "Color Management off".
I’m leaning towards it being a printer problem, just because every time I hit "Preview", it shows precisely what I want… and then prints that evil yellow. Of course, I definitely wouldn’t mind bein’ wrong.
Whenever I put my printer through the whole color test, it LOOKS like I should get at least close to the desired yellow. But, just in case it is the printer… does anyone have any new printer suggestions?
Thanks again, everybody.
Dave
Look at the Epson range.
I think that you will find that you can get truer results from one of theirs than you can from HP’s printers without a lot of fiddling with dot-gain curves.
Oh yeah, I don’t know how to find the dot shape, or the inkset. I converted the image from rgb to cmyk so that I could see what the image SHOULD look like when printed.
And I don’t use fluorescent lighting.
Thanks everybody.
Dave
dc – In Photoshop, try ‘Print with Preview’ (hopefully it’s there in 6.0 – its been a while)
for the print or destination space, select the profile for your HP.
Make sure the printer’s CM is off or set to ‘ColorSync’.
Try printing. Anything close to what you’re expecting?
Oh, you may want to get that 5%C out.
Don’t worry about it, Dave. You didn’t start a flame war – there are always people trying to prove how sharp they are by making simple things complicated.. you can bet that they’ll tell instead of ask.
Like Mike! I bet over there in "real" life he’s actually a very sweet guy and a good listener, too.
* ****
"You think he’s joking – now try to hit a Pantone 293C (in 4 color) and get back with me."
Wow, like it’s so difficult to look up in a Pantone process guide. I know, don’t tell me, you can do better, and you do, and I don’t have to believe you.
I’d like to see how you guys would have answered if Dave asked how to try to match a Pantone color in process. Surely, based on Mike’s answer, at least, Dave could never have expected "100-56-0-0".
He would have received a condescending lecture about opacity, and gold fleck, and cold press, and high-speed offset, and how DEEP and COMPLEX his question was.
Frankly, I don’t care. You indicated how simple the solution could have initially been yourself, by suggesting removing any Magenta. That’s all I was saying – start simple.
Like I said, some people really love to make simple things seem complicated.
"match a Pantone color in process."
I’m talking about hitting – what you see in the Book….Coated, what you’d see in RGB mode – if you’re monitor was properly calibrated.
Not’s it’s four color equivalent.
The cmyk color numbers are c=5 m=0 y=100 k=0.
Yea, take 5% of cyan out and you still have orange. You’re screwed.
The dpi is 300. The paper is HP Premium Plus Glossy Photo Paper. In color settings, I have "Color Management off".
Good, there is no such thing as "off" so you need to start reading……and take Andrew with you.
Oh – I see – it needs to be complicated –
with some "hitting", and some new definition of "process", and RGB "mode", and monitor calibration…
lol… whatever.
<
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8& oi=defmore&q=define>:process+color
I don’t see any mention of RGB… where could it be hiding? Maybe I’m just not looking in a -complicated enough- way. Yes, that’s it.
Keep digging.
[edit: hey by the way, I’m done with this thread. I’d have emailed you personally, Dave, if you’re still there 😉 but there’s no link. I don’t blame you.]
Why do i get the impression that Android is big on trolling and rather short on experience?
Dave now has two Print-industry professionals who are trying to help him to understand the complexities of getting ink onto paper to match his expectations.
It is not as easy as Android seems to think — and you need to learn that the only way to do this is by understanding, and employing, the correct protocols.
wow!!! WTFOMFGBBQ!!!
The last word in color theory – GOOGLE!!!
Why didnt we think of that?
Chris – PS is fully ICC compliant according to the specifications set forth by GOOGLE right?
Dave—
Mike & Jason are 2 of the best in the business… they know their stuff.
Dave…in the future.
If you are printing to your desktop HP.
Acquire the profile for your printer – either on the CD that shipped with the printer, or I’m sure it’s on HP’s site.
Load that profile in Photoshop. For working space, set your CMY color settings to SWOPv2, if you have your monitor properly profiled, use that as the RGB space, if you’re monitor is not profiled – best of luck : ) – sRGB would probably be your best bet.
(this may be where MO starts having fits) Keep the image in RGB mode.
With your image open, go to View>proof setup>your HP’s profile.
When you print, go to print with preview. If you want to emulate what would happen in the real world, select SWOPv2 as the source space, and set your print/destination space with the HP profile. Make sure the printer is set to ColorSync, not the printer’s CM.
Ann, did you happen to see my first post in this thread?
Oh, and to answer your question.. it’s probably because your intuition ain’t too hot.
COMPLEXITY!
No designer understands the sheer and stunning complexity the poor misunderstood and underappreciated, and underpaid (except our proud union workers, of course) Print Industry Professionals must endure. Nobody does!
"I imagine that this phenomenon has something to do with the order in which the mathematical equations for the different adjustments and layer-modes are compiled — depending on whether you are merging up or down…blahbitty blahbitty blahbitty blah blah." You’re so smart! REALLY GREAT answer there, Ann.
You too, hm? Ah, who am I kidding, I already knew when you used the term "complexities".
Ok, I’m getting way off base here. Sorry everyone (else). I just have little tolerance for people who know everything… like I -used- to.
By the way, I know I said I was done with this thread. Guilty.
Mike blathered:
"Good, there is no such thing as "off" so you need to start reading……and take Andrew with you. "
Uh, gee, do you think THIS <
http://www.turnerdesign.net/asshat/off.gif> is what he means?
Naw, couldn’t be. It’s not nearly complicated enough.
Mike, I put a bright red box around it just in case you couldn’t quite make out the area I was referring to.
wow – this guy really is a dolt.
No designer understands the sheer and stunning complexity the poor misunderstood and underappreciated, and underpaid (except our proud union workers, of course) Print Industry Professionals must endure. Nobody does! <
Pull the crack pipe out of your mouth pal.
and by the way, off is not off, so until you understand that concept, you don’t understand color.
In message #25, he stated that he was "done with this thread" but he insists on continuing to troll
If he would just read his Manual, he might learn that "Off" doesn’t mean what he seems to think it does!
I’d know that attitude anywhere.
I used to be there myself.
This guy is obviously an old-timer printer who doesn’t want to learn new tricks.
He thinks, just like I did, that CMYK numbers truly define color, whereas the truth is that color defines CMYK numbers.
OK sure, CMYK numbers define color in a very general sense and, depending on your setup may get you in the ballpark, but if your setup is uncalibrated and unprofiled, you might just end up out in the parking lot instead.
Ahh.
youthful bliss with misguided intentions always makes Tuesdays fun filled.
Now, Jason, are you going by the longstanding industry-accepted definition of "dolt", or are you making up a new one of your own?
Just checking, there’s no telling with you.
I think you guys missed my point altogether, though the thread did ramble a bit:
Dave came in with a question. Mike replied with the crayon quip. He obviously had time to sit and scratch his head a while and think up that comedic gem, which Dave really benefitted from; seems to me with all that industry experience, Mike -possibly- could have offered something a little more helpful.
Point being, sometimes people don’t need to know how an engine works just to turn the key.
If you don’t put gas in the car, it doesn’t go go.
What part of that do you not understand?
Or, apparently, how to turn it OFF either.
Dave –
First of all, you should stay in RGB. Even though an inkjet is technically a CMYK device, most (all?) inkjet printers EXPECT an RGB image. The CMYK conversion is handled in the driver. I can’t speak for HP, but if an Epson is sent a CMYK image, it first converts it BACK to RGB and then back again to CMYK – in the driver. Unless your image is going to press – stay in RGB. Otherwise, you’re limiting the color gamut unnecessarily. (may be part of your problem)
As some of the more helpful posts have suggested, you need:
1) a calibrated monitor – (Have you calibrated it?)
2) an accurate profile for your printer (Does HP provide one? Are you using it? Do you know how to use?)
3) a correct printing workflow (What are the steps you take when you print?)
Please elaborate.
Finally, are you low on yellow ink? Have you checked the nozzles for clogging?
-phil
dcmurray,
If you are sending this file to your HP , be it an RGB or CMYK printer, you really want to send your file as an RGB format, this will give you the better result.
It always works best when you send an RGB file to an InkJet, and set the media(paper) to match the actual paper you will use (best use HP on HP printers and Epson on Epson printers). Make sure you set the colormanagement in the print driver to "No Color Adjustment" –
In the Photoshop Print Preview box, set the Source space to "Document: your RGB space will be slected"
In the Print Space for Profile set it to the actual name that HP gives to the paper you use. If you get a custom profile for your paper, then use that Profile in the Print Space section.
Like Mike! I bet over there in "real" life he’s actually a very sweet guy and a good listener, too. <
Thanks,
It’s actually a really good descriptor that sums it up quite well.
I’m not defending MO’s crayon bit – nor am I denying the fact that reducing M is likely to yeild the yellow that Dave is looking for, because yellow is one of the most forgiving of the color spectrum.
Any other color you will find yourself in a world of hurt if you dont know the how’s and why that color exists.
Adroid – my use of the term ‘dolt’ is in accordance with how it’s spec’d according to GOOGLE.
Here Jas,
let me help you.
A heavy, stupid fellow; a blockhead; a numskull; an ignoramus; a dunce; a dullard.
This Puck seems but a dreaming dolt. –Drayton.
I just love these ‘Friday Afternoon Fights’ when they happen on a Tuesday.
Whoa!!!
That’s a ton o’ suggestions, gang! Thanks!!! I’m going to give them all a try later on (and look up printer profiles and the like). Right now, I’ve gotta’ run, but I did try a few things:
Jason, I gave the whole "print with preview" thing a shot (including taking out the "c"). It looked the same as what I’ve been getting.
Ann, I had a friend of mine print the image from his Epson. The yellow was correct, but everything else was off. It looked sort of like the "Colorsync Workflow" in the color settings. Of course, I didn’t mess with it too much to try and find the correct setting.
Mike, I’m sure you know your stuff. I’ve looked under printing cmyk and color settings in the Photoshop manual. To be perfectly honest, I’ve never been so thrown off in my life… that’s A LOT of jargon. Could you perhaps be more specific than "read"?
I called HP. I called Adobe. Apparently, my versions of Photoshop and my HP printer are too old to warrant any phone help, so that route didn’t work. Adobe said to get answers in the forums. And by gum (to think I’m only 26), I’m givin’ it my all.
PShock, I have plenty of yellow ink. All things are clean and I am hoping to one day get this to an actual printing press. That’s why I want this color match so badly.
Bonnie, thanks for lettin’ me know who not to tick off 😉
Android, I got it pal. Thanks for tryin’ to help out. I definitely felt a bit attacked at the beginning.
Thanks again, gang. If you have anymore suggestions, please feel free to fire them off.
Dave
ask Andrew.
He’s on top of all this stuff.
Dave – go to your PShop color settings, what are your RGB and CMYK settings?
"First of all, you should stay in RGB. Even though an inkjet is technically a CMYK device, most (all?) inkjet printers EXPECT an RGB image"
Really? I find when I print to my Epson inkjet I get far better results when I convert to cmyk before printing. At least it looks more like what I expect. If I print from rgb it seems that the colors become dark and muddy. Maybe just a poorly calibrated old monitor, but my cmyk results are fairly close to what I get at press while my rgb results are not.
You need to use the soft proof (View>Proof Setup>Your printer) to get predictable results on screen in RGB.
if it were me and i was in the dark, and i only needed to find a "good" yellow on this one device, then i would simply make up a swatch page of varying yellows and print them, some warm, some cold, some pure, some not…type under each one what they were…remember your print setup each time, perhaps try either RGB or CYMK…when you find the one you like, note it down and stick with that…there’s your yellow. Even better, if you have a file that gives you the yellow you want, use that…
See, in this world of printer profiles, colour spaces, modes etc etc, in which people swim with varying proficiency, people can forget the most important thing…the output. It doesnt matter how you got there, just that its how you wanted it and that you can get it again.
Even with adobe’s CM technology, its still a shot in the dark sometimes…profiles and setups can shine a little light, but theres nothing like photo glossy paper vs matte toilet paper going through any printer to show you how the torch doesnt quite reach all the corners so well.
dcmurray, your lucky you have complete control over your system…so i suggest just fiddle with the yellow and run tests to get what you want for this one. Feel free to learn about the elements involved so you know your driving on solid ground, but dont feel trapped by them. At least you know that your printer will print with some good regular consistancy 2 prints the same on the same stock using the same file and setup….thats not guaranteed always.
Dave you met the guys but perhaps I can point you in the right direction and give some relief.
You do have to calibrate your monitor, I guess you’ve done that by now.
Then go to this web site and down load their photoshop profile and load it into the photoshop color settings then make your file convert to that profile for the front.
It is a profile from a postcard company the front is where the color is.
That will make your document CMYK which I have found prints more accurately on my Epson in OS 10.2.8 on my Epson 1270. Sending as RGB with Color Match is also good but not as good.
But before printing do your color correction in CMYK.
This is where you get the profile I refer to:
<
http://www.modernpostcard.com>
they have a page that is for how to prepare your files or something like that.
I printed from photoshop and Illustrator and ID and the proofs where all the same and they ended up matching the card that they printed. So it might also work with
your HP. Worth a try. In the HP choose Color Sync if that is possible.
Also you might want to ignore Mike. He’s harmless as long as they keep him on his leash.
Yes, please do.
But I could also tell you that I have many industry color professionals listening intently on what I’ve been saying for the past 6 months.
I could also tell you to stop hitting the bottle so hard, but that would be unkind.
Can you say that you’ve exercised an extreme amount of time and energy to make things better for all?
I could tell you to F$%^^ off, but that would be inappropriate.
Yes, please pay not attention to the monkey on the string.
Be warned – any more "verbal" and this thread goes Read Only!
Ian Lyons
Here’s my 2¢.
Try to create a pure CMYK yellow in an AdobeRGB doc with default US Prepress settings. You will see why RGB yellow and some other colors don’t convert very well to real world CMYK pure inks.
My RGB mix requires 255R, 239G, 42B to get 1C, 1M, 100Y without getting an out of gamut signal in PS. This was as close as I could get.
The problem is that photos (and their RGB spaces/devices captured or converted to) normaly don’t allow maxing of any RGB signals like the red going to 255 or for any other saturated primaries. Photos create the illusion of vividness by dulling surrounding colors. Accurate profiles and your perception when editing color controls the relationship between what colors are used to create this illusion.
