ICC profile problem

CU
Posted By
Christiane Ulbricht
Aug 12, 2004
Views
636
Replies
14
Status
Closed
Hello!

I want to convert an image to the color space of a scanner, using the scanner’s ICC profile I created with ProfileMaker. The problem is, that it doesn’t appear in the profile-list, although the file is located in c:\windows\system32\spool\drivers\color.
My printer profile is in the same directory and it is in the list.

Does anyone know a solution for this problem?

Christiane.

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BV
Bart van der Wolf
Aug 12, 2004
"Christiane Ulbricht" wrote in message
Hello!

I want to convert an image to the color space of a scanner, using the scanner’s ICC profile I created with ProfileMaker.

One typically doesn’t convert to an input device’s profile, but instead assigns the profile of an input device.

The problem is, that it doesn’t appear in the profile-list, although the file is located in c:\windows\system32\spool\drivers\color. My printer profile is in the same directory and it is in the list.

What description did you give the profile? Photoshop lists profiles by their description, not their filename.

Bart
CU
Christiane Ulbricht
Aug 12, 2004
Bart van der Wolf wrote:

"Christiane Ulbricht" wrote in message

Hello!

I want to convert an image to the color space of a scanner, using the scanner’s ICC profile I created with ProfileMaker.

One typically doesn’t convert to an input device’s profile, but instead assigns the profile of an input device.
I think this didn’t work either (sorry, I’m sitting on a different computer now). What I want to do is scan a piece of cloth without color correction, assign(?) the scanner’s profile to the image and then convert(?) it to the monitor’s ICC profile. The image on the screen should then have the same color as the cloth – is this correct?

The problem is, that it doesn’t appear in the profile-list, although the file is located in c:\windows\system32\spool\drivers\color. My printer profile is in the same directory and it is in the list.

What description did you give the profile? Photoshop lists profiles by their description, not their filename.
There was no possibility to give a description in ProfileMaker. How can I do this? The printer and monitor profiles are in the list – the name was the same as the filename.

Thanx for your help

Christiane.
N
nomail
Aug 12, 2004
Christiane Ulbricht wrote:

One typically doesn’t convert to an input device’s profile, but instead assigns the profile of an input device.
I think this didn’t work either (sorry, I’m sitting on a different computer now). What I want to do is scan a piece of cloth without color correction, assign(?) the scanner’s profile to the image and then convert(?) it to the monitor’s ICC profile. The image on the screen should then have the same color as the cloth – is this correct?

Don’t convert it to the monitor profile, convert it to sRGB or AdobeRGB. You’ll view it through your monitor profile automatically when you view the image in Photoshop.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
BV
Bart van der Wolf
Aug 13, 2004
"Christiane Ulbricht" wrote in message
SNIP
What I want to do is scan a piece of cloth without color correction, assign(?) the scanner’s profile to the image

Yes.

and then convert(?) it to the monitor’s ICC profile.

No, unless the image will *only* be viewed on your monitor, not shared with others and not printed. It is much better to set your working profile to Adobe RGB and let Photoshop handle the conversion to the output devices (monitor, printer).

The image on the screen should then have the same color
as the cloth – is this correct?

Yes, within limits (assuming an accurate scanner and monitor profile, and the cloth pigments are within the gamut of the scanner and monitor). You may still run into metamerism issues when you view the cloth with a different color of light than the scanner uses to scan with. Maybe that is part of your problem?

What description did you give the profile? Photoshop lists
profiles by
their description, not their filename.

There was no possibility to give a description in ProfileMaker. How
can
I do this?

I’ll have to leave that for users of ProfileMaker.

The printer and monitor profiles are in the list – the name was the same as the filename.

Is the profile itself "installed" (right mouse click on the profile in its folder and if the first choice is "Uninstall Profile", it is installed)? "Installing" may or may not help, depending on PS version and OS. Sometimes it helps to remove a few profiles from the folder ("uninstall" and move elsewhere).

Bart
CU
Christiane Ulbricht
Aug 13, 2004
Johan W. Elzenga wrote:

Christiane Ulbricht wrote:

One typically doesn’t convert to an input device’s profile, but instead assigns the profile of an input device.

I think this didn’t work either (sorry, I’m sitting on a different computer now). What I want to do is scan a piece of cloth without color correction, assign(?) the scanner’s profile to the image and then convert(?) it to the monitor’s ICC profile. The image on the screen should then have the same color as the cloth – is this correct?

Don’t convert it to the monitor profile, convert it to sRGB or AdobeRGB. You’ll view it through your monitor profile automatically when you view the image in Photoshop.
I want to display that image in another application that is not capable of color management. So, I have to convert it to the monitor’s profile – right?

Christiane.
CU
Christiane Ulbricht
Aug 13, 2004
Bart van der Wolf wrote:

"Christiane Ulbricht" wrote in message
SNIP

What I want to do is scan a piece of cloth without color correction, assign(?) the scanner’s profile to the image

Yes.

and then convert(?) it to the monitor’s ICC profile.

No, unless the image will *only* be viewed on your monitor, not shared with others and not printed. It is much better to set your working profile to Adobe RGB and let Photoshop handle the conversion to the output devices (monitor, printer).
That’s exactly what I want to do 😉
I want to display it in another application that is not capable of color management – and it will not be printed or viewed elsewhere. So, conversion to the monitor’s profile will lead to an image that will look the same in all other applications and in photoshop on this specific monitor – is this right?

Applying the profile is possible, just converting doesn’t work. Seems like it should be that way 😉

Is the profile itself "installed" (right mouse click on the profile in its folder and if the first choice is "Uninstall Profile", it is installed)? "Installing" may or may not help, depending on PS version and OS. Sometimes it helps to remove a few profiles from the folder ("uninstall" and move elsewhere).
Yes.
N
nomail
Aug 13, 2004
Christiane Ulbricht wrote:

Don’t convert it to the monitor profile, convert it to sRGB or AdobeRGB. You’ll view it through your monitor profile automatically when you view the image in Photoshop.
I want to display that image in another application that is not capable of color management. So, I have to convert it to the monitor’s profile – right?

No, converting to monitor space will only work if the other application DOES know color management. If that other application doesn’t know color management, it will not understand that the color space is the monitor space. In stead, it will probably assume that the color space is sRGB, so converting your image to sRGB is a safer bet IMHO.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
BV
Branko Vukelic
Aug 13, 2004
Not if your monitor is callibrated. See, usually, Windows systems are callibrated to gamma 2.2 whereas non-callibrated systems remain at 2.5, so if you’re gonna share with people who run at 2.5, there is no point in working with unmanaged images (if you assing your monitor’s profile, it is supposed to mean that you do not color-manage your image). What you need is a profile that describes an uncorrected monitor. Such a profile can be found at:

http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/download/aim_profiles.zip

The "nativePC Trinitron D65 G2.5" is the profile you want to use. I have tested it against some uncorrected monitors and it is accurate enough. There are some other profiles in there (for uncorrected Mac monitors, etc) but if you don’t know how to use them, you don’t need to, trust me. 😉

Christiane Ulbricht wrote:

[sic]

I want to display that image in another application that is not capable of color management. So, I have to convert it to the monitor’s profile – right?

Christiane.
CU
Christiane Ulbricht
Aug 13, 2004
Johan W. Elzenga wrote:

Christiane Ulbricht wrote:

Don’t convert it to the monitor profile, convert it to sRGB or AdobeRGB. You’ll view it through your monitor profile automatically when you view the image in Photoshop.

I want to display that image in another application that is not capable of color management. So, I have to convert it to the monitor’s profile – right?

No, converting to monitor space will only work if the other application DOES know color management. If that other application doesn’t know color management, it will not understand that the color space is the monitor space. In stead, it will probably assume that the color space is sRGB, so converting your image to sRGB is a safer bet IMHO.
But converting to the monitor profile should convert the RGB values to the appropriate values of the monitor.

I tried both and the sRGB-version is significantly darker, while the monitor-version looks the same.

BTW: Thanx to all for your help 🙂

Christiane.
BV
Bart van der Wolf
Aug 13, 2004
"Christiane Ulbricht" wrote in message
Bart van der Wolf wrote:
SNIP
No, unless the image will *only* be viewed on your monitor, not
shared
with others and not printed. It is much better to set your working profile to Adobe RGB and let Photoshop handle the conversion to
the
output devices (monitor, printer).
That’s exactly what I want to do 😉

It will only work when you use Photoshop (or other Color Management aware software) to view the results.

I want to display it in another application that is not capable of color management – and it will not be printed or viewed elsewhere.

In that case you’ll have to convert from the assigned scanner profile to the non-colormanaged state of your display, which may resemble sRGB. If it does, e.g. because your monitor’s brightness (=blackpoint) and contrast and gamma were set by the display profiling software and native gamma is adjusted at start-up, you’ll get close.

So, conversion to the monitor’s profile will lead to an image that will look the same in all other applications and in photoshop on this specific monitor – is this right?

Unfortunately not. The Windows OS doesn’t use any display profile by itself, it requires an application that is CM aware. All Windows does is use the monitor settings as they are, and optionally load a gamma adjustment at start-up. To verify what gamma your display is using outside a CM aware application (e.g. with Internet Explorer for Windows), you can use
< http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#gammachar t> (let your monitor warm-up for at least 30 min before judging).

Applying the profile is possible, just converting doesn’t work.
Seems
like it should be that way 😉

See above. Things are not what they seem, sometimes.

Bart
B
bhilton665
Aug 13, 2004
Don’t convert it to the monitor profile, convert it to sRGB or AdobeRGB. You’ll view it through your monitor profile automatically when you view the image in Photoshop.

From: Christiane Ulbricht

I want to display that image in another application that is not capable of color management. So, I have to convert it to the monitor’s profile – right?

As others pointed out, applications that aren’t color managed won’t use the monitor profile.

I’d suggest turning off CM for Photoshop to see what the image will look like in a non-color managed app, making edits as necessary. Probably best to just give up and convert the file to sRGB too since its gamut is a match for the average uncalibrated monitor.

To display the image without the monitor profile (ie, what a non-color managed app would look like on your machine) do View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB

Bill
CU
Christiane Ulbricht
Aug 13, 2004
Bill Hilton wrote:

Don’t convert it to the monitor profile, convert it to sRGB or AdobeRGB. You’ll view it through your monitor profile automatically when you view the image in Photoshop.

From: Christiane Ulbricht

I want to display that image in another application that is not capable of color management. So, I have to convert it to the monitor’s profile – right?

As others pointed out, applications that aren’t color managed won’t use the monitor profile.

I’d suggest turning off CM for Photoshop to see what the image will look like in a non-color managed app, making edits as necessary. Probably best to just give up and convert the file to sRGB too since its gamut is a match for the average uncalibrated monitor.

To display the image without the monitor profile (ie, what a non-color managed app would look like on your machine) do View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB
Bill
I know that windows doesn’t use color profiles, but I thought that converting the image to the monitor’s color space (and thus to the monitor’s RGB values?) should result in an image that looks the same in both photoshop and other applicaitons.

I want to scan a piece of cloth and display it on one specific monitor in an application that doesn’t use color management. There must be a way that the colors at least look somewhat the same, isn’t it? (I generated ICC profiles for any input and output device)

Presently, the colors differ significantly, also in photoshop! Converting to sRGB makes it even worse. Of course, the color space of the monitor is much smaller than the one of the scanner, but shouldn’t it work at least for colors that are inside the monitor gamut?

Christiane.
BV
Bart van der Wolf
Aug 13, 2004
"Christiane Ulbricht" wrote in message
SNIP
Presently, the colors differ significantly, also in photoshop! Converting to sRGB makes it even worse.

Perceptual rendering?

Bart
MR
Mike Russell
Aug 15, 2004
Christiane Ulbricht wrote:
….
I know that windows doesn’t use color profiles,

Later versions of windows, including Win2K and XP, do use color profiles. An active profile may be assigned to your monitor, and non color aware apps will display using that monitor. In practice, providing an sRGB image will get you very close indeed.

but I thought that
converting the image to the monitor’s color space (and thus to the monitor’s RGB values?) should result in an image that looks the same in both photoshop and other applicaitons.

Yes, in earlier versions of windows, or in later versions that have no active monitor profile. or a as mentioned, profile that does not differ significantly from the sRGB color space.

I want to scan a piece of cloth and display it on one specific monitor in an application that doesn’t use color management. There must be a way that the colors at least look somewhat the same, isn’t it? (I generated ICC profiles for any input and output device)

Yes, and that way is almost certainly to provide an sRGB image.

Presently, the colors differ significantly, also in photoshop! Converting to sRGB makes it even worse.

I’m surprised at this, and suspect that your monitor profile may be unusual in some way. I would sugest that you disable your monitor profile, and also look at your image on a variety of systems before deciding on whether to go with your monitor space or sRGB. Profiling your monitor can be like getting tatooed, with the additional ironic twist that others also be tatooed in order to understand you.

Of course, the color space of
the monitor is much smaller than the one of the scanner, but shouldn’t it work at least for colors that are inside the monitor gamut?

The monitor’s color space is probably larger than the scanner’s, particularly since you are scanning reflective material. Also keep in mind that the light source of the scanner is a factor, and any unusual dyes in the material may create unpredictable results.

Having said all that, if your results with converting to your monitor profile are giving you empirically the best results, don’t let anything we say here dissuade you. As you can see, there are a multitude of voices, and they do not always agree with one another.


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net

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