How Different is Photoshop CS

"Major Malfunction" wrote in message

I have the Adobe Creative Suite on order. I have no previous versions of Photoshop to draw any experience from and there are no Photoshop CS training books available . . . yet. Is the new version close enough to Photoshop 7 that I could use Adobe Classroom in a Book for Photoshop, or other PS 7 guides, to learn it?

Why go with PS7 guides to learn CS when Amazon has the new Photoshop CS Classroom in a Book. http://makeashorterlink.com/?X39E42E56

FWIW and IMHO I would just wait until you get the suite…..from my own experience I dabbled for a couple of years on Photoshop
before I felt any confidence in my ability to use the program at 3% of the photoshop’s ability. 10 years later I think I probably
use about 40% of what the program can do.

My point is that you have begun a journey that will probably provoke the purchase of MANY books, magazines and hopefully you will
take a few online classes. I took some illustrator classess from lvsonline.com and in 6 weeks I learned things that I had self
taught myself in 3 years. Welcome to the photoshop faternity and an addiction that potentially will supercede your dayjob, your
relationships and in a positive way, you will see the planet earth completely different.

"Major Malfunction" wrote in message

I have the Adobe Creative Suite on order. I have no previous versions of Photoshop to draw any experience from and there are no Photoshop CS training books available . . . yet. Is the new version close enough to Photoshop 7 that I could use Adobe Classroom in a Book for Photoshop, or other PS 7 guides, to learn it?

"stupid_idiot" wrote in message

FWIW and IMHO I would just wait until you get the suite…..from my own

experience I dabbled for a couple of years on Photoshop

before I felt any confidence in my ability to use the program at 3% of the

photoshop’s ability. 10 years later I think I probably

use about 40% of what the program can do.

My point is that you have begun a journey that will probably provoke the

purchase of MANY books, magazines and hopefully you will

take a few online classes. I took some illustrator classess from

lvsonline.com and in 6 weeks I learned things that I had self

taught myself in 3 years. Welcome to the photoshop faternity and an

addiction that potentially will supercede your dayjob, your

relationships and in a positive way, you will see the planet earth

completely different.

Thnks for the words. Oh yes, by the way, this *is* my day job ;-{) I’m a self employed one person one stop Computer Culsultant / Trainer.looking to enhance my skill sets and add value to services I offer my clients . . . and have fun along the way. Lately I’ve found myself attracted to more sophisticated graphic design and personal promotion web related projects. I’ve already reached my limit of satisfaction with the standard Office tools and am ready to move on. GoLive was my first step in this new direction and I rapidly realized I needed some additional tools to really create the end product I want to. I’m looking forward to the journey!

"Major Malfunction" wrote in message

I have the Adobe Creative Suite on order. I have no previous versions of Photoshop to draw any experience from and there are no Photoshop CS

training

books available . . . yet. Is the new version close enough to Photoshop

7

that I could use Adobe Classroom in a Book for Photoshop, or other PS 7 guides, to learn it?

"Jimmy" wrote in message

"Major Malfunction" wrote in message

I have the Adobe Creative Suite on order. I have no previous versions of Photoshop to draw any experience from and there are no Photoshop CS

training

books available . . . yet. Is the new version close enough to Photoshop

7

that I could use Adobe Classroom in a Book for Photoshop, or other PS 7 guides, to learn it?

Why go with PS7 guides to learn CS when Amazon has the new Photoshop CS

Classroom in a Book.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X39E42E56

Thanks for the help! I did not see this on my last visit to Amazon. I’m still learning from the GoLive 6.0 book, so when I get the new version, I’ll evaluate that to see if there are any major differences.

"Jimmy" wrote in message

"Major Malfunction" wrote in message

I have the Adobe Creative Suite on order. I have no previous versions of Photoshop to draw any experience from and there are no Photoshop CS

training

books available . . . yet. Is the new version close enough to Photoshop

7

that I could use Adobe Classroom in a Book for Photoshop, or other PS 7 guides, to learn it?

Why go with PS7 guides to learn CS when Amazon has the new Photoshop CS

Classroom in a Book.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X39E42E56

I just checked and they are all marked as "Not Available Yet" with publication dates of December. InDesign is listed as October publication, but it is also flagged as not shipping. There could be a delay from Adobe on this material as I’ve had my Creative Suite on order for a week. I’m patient and this will give me a chance to try on my own for a while.

stupid_idiot

Ditto that.

I remember trying to learn ps4 (many moons ago)…when you still received a manual with software…it was really really hard. Over the years you just ‘learn’ it. Picking up tips here and there. One book I will recommend is the "photoshop wow" book. Whatever version they’re up to know. But I only recommend it after you’ve been using photoshop for at least a year.

I reckon I’m about a 40%’a like yourself. Still learning new stuff by the day. Something I learnt the other day was the "measure" tool (PS6) (I didn’t even know it had one!).

Say you have a pic with a wonky horizon. Measure the horizon with just 2 points. Then Image > Rotate > Arbitary. PS will fill the angle in for you to straighten the wonky horizon.

Cheers
TS

I think that if I was just starting out again, I would probably save my pennies and buy the CDs by Deke McClellan. PS CS comes with one that goes over some of the new things in CS and he is a great teacher. It would probably set you back another $300 though. To me, that is steep after forking over a bunch for the total suite.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:14:02 -0900, "stupid_idiot" wrote:

from my own experience I dabbled for a couple of years on Photoshop before I felt any confidence in my ability to use the program at 3% of the photoshop’s ability. 10 years later I think I probably
use about 40% of what the program can do.

That much? 😉 I haven’t used it for as long as (about 5 years) but reckon I’m probably not even into double figures 😉

My point is that you have begun a journey that will probably provoke the purchase of MANY books, magazines and hopefully you will
take a few online classes. I took some illustrator classess from lvsonline.com and in 6 weeks I learned things that I had self
taught myself in 3 years. Welcome to the photoshop faternity and an addiction that potentially will supercede your dayjob, your
relationships and in a positive way, you will see the planet earth completely different.

You’re right about the books. My PS library just keeps on growing and I suspect I’ll be reading and learning about PS until the day I stop using it (which’ll be the day my heart stops <G>)

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

"Hecate" wrote in message

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:14:02 -0900, "stupid_idiot" wrote:

from my own experience I dabbled for a couple of years on Photoshop before I felt any confidence in my ability to use the program at 3% of

the photoshop’s ability. 10 years later I think I probably

use about 40% of what the program can do.

That much? 😉 I haven’t used it for as long as (about 5 years) but reckon I’m probably not even into double figures 😉

My point is that you have begun a journey that will probably provoke the

purchase of MANY books, magazines and hopefully you will

take a few online classes. I took some illustrator classess from

lvsonline.com and in 6 weeks I learned things that I had self

taught myself in 3 years. Welcome to the photoshop faternity and an

addiction that potentially will supercede your dayjob, your

relationships and in a positive way, you will see the planet earth

completely different.

You’re right about the books. My PS library just keeps on growing and I suspect I’ll be reading and learning about PS until the day I stop using it (which’ll be the day my heart stops <G>)

—

Thanks to everyone for the advice. Seems like PhotoShop users are a pretty dedicated breed! And unlike some User Forum NGs I’ve been in, wiling to help.

Most of you can’t get to shut-up. 8^)

Robert

"Major Malfunction" wrote in message

"Hecate" wrote in message

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:14:02 -0900, "stupid_idiot" wrote:

from my own experience I dabbled for a couple of years on Photoshop before I felt any confidence in my ability to use the program at 3% of

the photoshop’s ability. 10 years later I think I probably

use about 40% of what the program can do.

That much? 😉 I haven’t used it for as long as (about 5 years) but reckon I’m probably not even into double figures 😉

My point is that you have begun a journey that will probably provoke

the

purchase of MANY books, magazines and hopefully you will

take a few online classes. I took some illustrator classess from

lvsonline.com and in 6 weeks I learned things that I had self

taught myself in 3 years. Welcome to the photoshop faternity and an

addiction that potentially will supercede your dayjob, your

relationships and in a positive way, you will see the planet earth

completely different.

You’re right about the books. My PS library just keeps on growing and I suspect I’ll be reading and learning about PS until the day I stop using it (which’ll be the day my heart stops <G>)

—

Thanks to everyone for the advice. Seems like PhotoShop users are a pretty dedicated breed! And unlike some User Forum NGs I’ve been in, wiling to help.

Photoshop CS is the best release by Adobe for Photoshop in several versions. There are more interesting professional tools like Layer Comps, and better support of 16 bit.

Upgrade:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DBOBZ/newwriting /

As far as learning it, I think people have unrealistic expectations. You have to take it a tool at a time. If you try to learn it all at once, you are pretty much doomed to frustration. My suggestion is to actually look into the manual and take on a tool or two a week or every few days. Once you have a bunch of tools (at least the toolbox) you can start trying out some simple common projects, like removing red eye, cropping, adding type, etc. After you have at least looked at most of the menus, you’ll want to get involved with some real-world projects that start simple…basic color correction, Dust correction for scans, replacement of objects.

I have a newsletter (free) for Photoshop users:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ps6

I also have one for Elements users:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpe

and free tools for Elements users to allow you to play actions and do other things Elements "can’t":
http://hiddenelements.com

I am seriously considering doing a beginner book, though I have been doing advanced books on the subject.

Elements:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0782141781/newwriting / Photoshop:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0782142559/newwriting /

I’d be glad to answer questions:

"TheBookDoc" wrote in message

Photoshop CS is the best release by Adobe for Photoshop in several

versions.

There are more interesting professional tools like Layer Comps, and better support of 16 bit.

Upgrade:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DBOBZ/newwriting /
As far as learning it, I think people have unrealistic expectations. You

have

to take it a tool at a time. If you try to learn it all at once, you are

pretty

much doomed to frustration. My suggestion is to actually look into the

manual

and take on a tool or two a week or every few days. Once you have a bunch

of

tools (at least the toolbox) you can start trying out some simple common projects, like removing red eye, cropping, adding type, etc. After you

have at

least looked at most of the menus, you’ll want to get involved with some real-world projects that start simple…basic color correction, Dust

correction

for scans, replacement of objects.

I have a newsletter (free) for Photoshop users:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ps6

I also have one for Elements users:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpe

and free tools for Elements users to allow you to play actions and do

other

things Elements "can’t":
http://hiddenelements.com

I am seriously considering doing a beginner book, though I have been doing advanced books on the subject.

Elements:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0782141781/newwriting / Photoshop:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0782142559/newwriting /
I’d be glad to answer questions:

Thanks for the helpful links although, for various reasons, I don’t Yahoo. I did book mark your other sight.

On 02 Nov 2003 11:50:05 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

Photoshop CS is the best release by Adobe for Photoshop in several versions. There are more interesting professional tools like Layer Comps, and better support of 16 bit.

Other than the 16 bit support, and that’s moot anyway if you use film, there no compelling reasons whatsoever to upgrade. And one compelling reason not to called activation.

I’m sure Adobe pay you a nice retainer for advertising, but this really isn’t the place to do it 😉

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

Hardly an objective opinion then, since you have a vested interest in the success of the product.
—

Ron.

TheBookDoc wrote in message

I am seriously considering doing a beginner book, though I have been doing advanced books on the subject.

Hecate wrote:

On 02 Nov 2003 11:50:05 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

Photoshop CS is the best release by Adobe for Photoshop in several versions. There are more interesting professional tools like Layer Comps, and better support of 16 bit.

Other than the 16 bit support, and that’s moot anyway if you use film, there no compelling reasons whatsoever to upgrade.

16 bit is VERY interesting, also if you use film (and a proper film scanner). Apart from that, there’s a lot more:

– Integrated import of camera RAW formats
– Filter gallery
– More interpolation options
– Highlight/Shadow control
– Photo filters
– Text on any path
– Non-square pixels for video editting
– Customizable keyboard shortcuts
– Extended Histogram function
– Much improved File Browser with it’s own menus
– Photomerge
– Save Hitory information
– Mach colors of two images
– Easy Replace Color function
– Crop and Straighten of multiple scans on a page

and about a hundred other things…

And one compelling reason not to called activation.

Sigh. You begin to sound like a broken vinyl record.

—
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:40:20 +0100, (Johan W.
Elzenga) wrote:

Hecate wrote:

On 02 Nov 2003 11:50:05 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

Photoshop CS is the best release by Adobe for Photoshop in several versions. There are more interesting professional tools like Layer Comps, and better support of 16 bit.

Other than the 16 bit support, and that’s moot anyway if you use film, there no compelling reasons whatsoever to upgrade.

16 bit is VERY interesting, also if you use film (and a proper film scanner). Apart from that, there’s a lot more:

I wouldn’t call it *very*. it’s mildly interesting. I have seen very few images which would have been improved by the use of 16 bit as against 8 bit.

– Integrated import of camera RAW formats

Not interested. I use film and will be doing so for the forseeable future.

– Filter gallery

Oh, wow, another way to use filters.

– More interpolation options

And if you capture the image correctly in the first place it’s use is…?

– Highlight/Shadow control

See above

– Photo filters

Oh wow, just what the world needs, more filters

– Text on any path

Do that already in any Illustrastor/Freehand/CorelDraw/etc. IOW, I use a vector program for vectors not a bitmap program.

– Non-square pixels for video editting

Don’t do it, not interested

– Customizable keyboard shortcuts

There’s quite enough shortcuts to remember already thanks very much

– Extended Histogram function

And that’ll improve your images how?

– Much improved File Browser with it’s own menus

Don’t use it in the first place

– Photomerge

Can do that already

– Save Hitory information

Ah. at last, something that *is* useful. I was beginning to wonder

– Mach colors of two images

And you can’t do that already?

– Easy Replace Color function

And what’s wrong with the one we already have?

– Crop and Straighten of multiple scans on a page

You mean you can’t get your images straight?

and about a hundred other things…

And if they’re all as useful as the above, they’re a total waste of time and money.

And one compelling reason not to called activation.

Sigh. You begin to sound like a broken vinyl record.

You obviously think it’s a wonderful idea to penalise legal licensees because Adobe wants a nice database of users they can sell on and so forth. I don’t.

And please don’t say it’s a security m,easure. I saw the crack on a newsgroup before PS CS had even been officially released.

And the required fix for that was available a week later, which is a damn site more efficient than Adobe will ever be.

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

Other than the 16 bit support, and that’s moot anyway if you use film,

16-bit is ‘moot’ if you use film?? I am not sure what you mean. You didn’t have 16-bit for all filters and functions before, and now you do…how does film make that ‘moot’?

there no compelling reasons whatsoever to upgrade.

There are plenty if you are using Photoshop because you need it. I was not particularly interested in the PS6 or PS7 release, and I did not recommend the latter. There wasn’t enough in it to justify the upgrade for most in my opinion. PS CS is worth it.

First, 16-bit support is not ‘moot’. It offers the ability to work with and archive images in greater bit depths with potentially better retention of color and difference. Log tracking for what steps you take with an image let you really track behaviors, large file support (up to 300,000 x 300,000 pixels) lets you work with professional digital cameras without limitations, inclusion of the camera RAW plug-in lets you save $100 on the plugin and work with raw information from you digital camera, nested layers sets (up to 5 levels) give you huge flexibility with multi-layered files, and such things as conditional actions and SWF saves (in my opinion Layer Comps) for Image Ready actually improve web capabilities.

Some of these may be too specific for general users, but they may be indispensable for professionals with acess to equipment powerful enough to make use of these features.

Several items are more useful for the general user, like healing to a layer, text on or in a path, the Filter Gallery and customized shortcuts.

*Healing to a layer gives the user more opportunity and flexibility to use the healing results less casually and potentially destructively, and so the user can manipulate the result after the fact.

*Text on a path has always been a sore point for users who creatively use text in their images and had to turn to Illustrator to do the job.

*The Filter Gallery is finally a way to implement filters creatively as they should be used: in sets. You can rarely get an interesting and desirable creative effect applying Filters one at a time, and this enhancement makes grouping possible.

*With customized shortcuts, gone are the days when you have to research out a shortcut that you knew you used once…and you get a new productivity boost by keying in your own without having to create
separate actions and use F keys. Not only do you have access to the shortcut listing from within Photoshop, and a very well presented interface for changing shortcuts, but you can print them all out. You can copy that shortcut file and take it with you to propagate on other machines, and customize personal sets for multiple users on any machine.

For newer users, the possibility of adding content to the Help menu will probably be a huge boon. Many experts will be interested in providing quality information— probably for free — to include on the
menu.

I don’t see a lot of negatives except what might have been sadly over-looked in broadening the implementation of enhancements. However, Adobe needs something to keep you wishing for…

And one compelling reason not to called activation.

Which isn’t a problem if you want to use the software legally.

I’m sure Adobe pay you a nice retainer for advertising, but this really isn’t

the place to do it 😉

Um, I am not at all employed by adobe in any fashion. I have worked with the product over several months, however, and most here will not have had that opportunity. Was actually trying to be helpful…But enjoy the negativity if that is your preference.

You can get it on Amazon:

Full License:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DBOAX/newwriting / Upgrade:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DBOBZ/newwriting /

Richard Lynch
http://ps6.com

<< Hardly an objective opinion then, since you have a vested interest in the success of the product. >>

I write books, sure, but could care less if people upgrade. To me books are not version specific…there is either good technique that spans versions, or faddish technique based on new tools. New tools are fewer and further between.

I didn’t recommend the upgrade to 7 (the only thing in it was a healing and patch tool). I didn’t recommend 6 either. If you skipped one or both of those, it is probably time to upgrade.

Richard Lynch
http://ps6.com

<< Johan W. Elzenga >>

So, wait…isn’t this guy on the payroll too?

There are a lot of other features as you say, Johan…I believe not all are ‘compelling’.

The nature of this newsgroup hasn’t changed in years…still sharks in the water looking to bite off anyone’s head who sticks it in the water. No wonder the popularity of these groups has diminished.

Richard Lynch
http://ps6.com

<< >16 bit is VERY interesting,
I wouldn’t call it *very*. >>

I agree…it is a nice thing to have, but not imperative. In fact I share Hecate’s feelings about many of the minor enhancements listed…they often lead to a "so what" depending on how you use the program (though even I think the Filter gallery is a needed improvement — if you use filter combinations at all). However, if you are a professional who needs to use Photoshop (that is, you aren’t mired in film entirely, need to use it for a variety of purposes INCLUDING VECTORS, and may get images from a variety of sources), than this upgrade is a good one because of the enhanced image support (large files, camera raw, 16-bit, non-square pixels, saving history (as comps and logs) ). You can trash individual enhancements easily, but not the grouping.

If you don’t need these things, you should use elements instead. You don’t need Photoshop’s tools and can save a lot on a simpler program for streamlined image editing:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006ANW9/newwriting /

…. How’s that for an unpopular expression.

Richard Lynch
http://hiddenelements.com

TheBookDoc wrote:

There are a lot of other features as you say, Johan…I believe not all are ‘compelling’.

Of course not. I’ve never seen any update of any program where ALL new features where compelling. There will always be minor changes and major changes, and even the major changes will always be important to SOME people while they may not be important to others. For example, I understand that people working with video will find the non-square pixels a major improvement. For me, as a photographer, it’s something I will never use so I couldn’t care less.

—
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/

Thanks, but I’ll stick with my tried & trusted PS5.5. As far as I can see Photoshop ‘peaked’ with that version, it does what I want/need to do, and I know how to make it do what I want/need done. As far as CS is concerned (which I wouldn’t buy anyway, simply because of the product activation, regardless of its ‘improvements’) it would also mean upgrading the OS to W2k or XP (activation again), which in turn would probably throw up incompatibilities in other software, so *that* would then need ‘upgrading’ too, and so on and so on.
—

Ron.

TheBookDoc wrote in message

<< Hardly an objective opinion then, since you have a vested interest in

the

success of the product. >>

I write books, sure, but could care less if people upgrade. To me books

are not

version specific…there is either good technique that spans versions, or faddish technique based on new tools. New tools are fewer and further

between.

I didn’t recommend the upgrade to 7 (the only thing in it was a healing

and

patch tool). I didn’t recommend 6 either. If you skipped one or both of

those,

it is probably time to upgrade.

Richard Lynch
http://ps6.com

On 08 Nov 2003 11:05:07 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

<< >16 bit is VERY interesting,
I wouldn’t call it *very*. >>

I agree…it is a nice thing to have, but not imperative. In fact I share If you don’t need these things, you should use elements instead. You don’t need Photoshop’s tools and can save a lot on a simpler program for streamlined image editing:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006ANW9/newwriting /
… How’s that for an unpopular expression.

Richard Lynch
http://hiddenelements.com

ichard,

I’ll join you in an unpopular expression. I’ve been using Photoshop since version 4, and my impression version 8 (CS) is that it is so far ahead of version 7, for my needs, that I wonder how I ever coped with earlier versions.

As a Canon 10D user, the ability to handle RAW and 16 bit files is fantastic, You don’t even have to convert the RAW files. Select the image you want in the file browser, apply colour balance (Kelvin if you wish), and all the other options, which you can preview, open the file and work on it in 16 bit, Then save it in the desired format.

The new keyboard shortcuts feature is a stunner. Select a function and assign a shortcut. You get informative warning iif the shortcut is already in use. Once you accept a shortcut it then appears on the menu against that item. So if you forget what your shortcut is, you can remind yourself by using the menu for that function.

Use the browser to select a batch of photos, and with one click you have a PDF file to send to a friend. And so on.

The Shadow/Highlight feature is awesome for increasing the shadow detail of a photo without affecting the midtones or highlights.

For me, the difference with Photoshop CS just goes on and on, and the really great thing is that most of my old images look so much better after a few minutes treatment in Photoshop CS. The only photos that don’t benefit are those that I got right in the first place.

I suspect that a truly expert and professional user of Photoshop can do with version 4 most of the core colour correction, sharpening and other adjustments that could be done in Photoshop 8. But for a user like myself, the latest version of Photoshop is a major advance on previous versions for making the amazing capabilities of Photoshop more accessible to the ordinary user.

The Shadow/Highlight feature in particular does in a mouse click what normally requires two images with different exposures and a complex operation of layers, blending modes and transperancy.

Jason

My point was to agree, Johan…not all are compelling, but it isn’t one or two enhancements — or taking them individually — that make the upgrade. There are a bunch of things take TOGETHER that make this a compelling upgrade — it isn’t the individual components.

Richard

TheBookDoc wrote:

My point was to agree, Johan…not all are compelling, but it isn’t one or two enhancements — or taking them individually — that make the upgrade. There are a bunch of things take TOGETHER that make this a compelling upgrade — it isn’t the individual components.

I couldn’t agree more! Many of the new features are things that CAN be done in another way already. But the new way is faster or easier or both. And as I’m not interested in the process but only in the results, I like things that are faster of easier or both! 😉

—
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/

wrote:>I agree…it is a nice thing to have, but not imperative. In fact I share

Hecate’s feelings about many of the minor enhancements listed…they often lead
to a "so what" depending on how you use the program (though even I think the Filter gallery is a needed improvement — if you use filter combinations at all). However, if you are a professional who needs to use Photoshop (that is, you aren’t mired in film entirely, need to use it for a variety of purposes INCLUDING VECTORS, and may get images from a variety of sources), than this upgrade is a good one because of the enhanced image support (large files, camera raw, 16-bit, non-square pixels, saving history (as comps and logs) ). You can trash individual enhancements easily, but not the grouping.

I have found the shadow and highlight adjustment function very useful, especially with images from my Canon S50. I haven’t tried the RAW function, but that might be even better, although the details seem rather forbidding.

Johan W. Elzenga

posted his website (http://www.johanfoto.nl/)in this string. It is awsome — one of the best collection of photographs I have ever seen on the web.

On 08 Nov 2003 10:45:26 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

Other than the 16 bit support, and that’s moot anyway if you use film,

16-bit is ‘moot’ if you use film?? I am not sure what you mean. You didn’t have 16-bit for all filters and functions before, and now you do…how does film make that ‘moot’?

there no compelling reasons whatsoever to upgrade.

There are plenty if you are using Photoshop because you need it. I was not particularly interested in the PS6 or PS7 release, and I did not recommend the latter. There wasn’t enough in it to justify the upgrade for most in my opinion. PS CS is worth it.

First, 16-bit support is not ‘moot’. It offers the ability to work with and archive images in greater bit depths with potentially better retention of color and difference. Log tracking for what steps you take with an image let you really track behaviors, large file support (up to 300,000 x 300,000 pixels) lets you work with professional digital cameras without limitations, inclusion of the camera RAW plug-in lets you save $100 on the plugin and work with raw information from you digital camera, nested layers sets (up to 5 levels) give you huge flexibility with multi-layered files, and such things as conditional actions and SWF saves (in my opinion Layer Comps) for Image Ready actually improve web capabilities.

All I am concerned with is the final result. And I have yet to see any visible evidence of a difference in the final result that I need i.e. output to web or print, which would justify outlaying my money and my personal freedom on PS8.

Some of these may be too specific for general users, but they may be indispensable for professionals with acess to equipment powerful enough to make use of these features.

Several items are more useful for the general user, like healing to a layer, text on or in a path, the Filter Gallery and customized shortcuts.
*Healing to a layer gives the user more opportunity and flexibility to use the healing results less casually and potentially destructively, and so the user can manipulate the result after the fact.

As long as a layer has pixels on it, you can use the healing brush on it. it makes no difference to me at all.it would make a difference, I concede, to someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing.

*Text on a path has always been a sore point for users who creatively use text in their images and had to turn to Illustrator to do the job.

I prefer doing text in a vector app because I prefer using the best tool for the job (and that’s not Illustrator, btw, IMHO, of course).

*The Filter Gallery is finally a way to implement filters creatively as they should be used: in sets. You can rarely get an interesting and desirable creative effect applying Filters one at a time, and this enhancement makes grouping possible.

And you rarely get many useful filters at all. I have about five sets of filters I use normally. After that, it’s all fluff.

*With customized shortcuts, gone are the days when you have to research out a shortcut that you knew you used once…and you get a new productivity boost by keying in your own without having to create
separate actions and use F keys. Not only do you have access to the shortcut listing from within Photoshop, and a very well presented interface for changing shortcuts, but you can print them all out. You can copy that shortcut file and take it with you to propagate on other machines, and customize personal sets for multiple users on any machine.

I have sets of shortcuts I always use, the rest I never use. I don’t need it.

For newer users, the possibility of adding content to the Help menu will probably be a huge boon. Many experts will be interested in providing quality information— probably for free — to include on the
menu.

Fine. But it’s no use to me or any graphics professional.

I don’t see a lot of negatives except what might have been sadly over-looked in broadening the implementation of enhancements. However, Adobe needs something to keep you wishing for…

And one compelling reason not to called activation.

Which isn’t a problem if you want to use the software legally.

Oh, you are joking I hope? Let’s see why have Adobe started using activation. Not the reason they give. There were usable cracks out before Adobe even officially released the software. Hackers are far more efficient than Adobe. it has absolutely nothing to do with legality and everything to do with marketing. First, they get a nice captive user base whose details they can sell on for a nice profit. Then there’s the added advantage of, in a couple of years saying, well, we’re just not activating that version any more, so I’m very sorry you had to reinstall, but you’ll have to upgrade to the new version. Don’t like the price? Tough. And so forth.

I’m sure Adobe pay you a nice retainer for advertising, but this really isn’t

the place to do it 😉

Um, I am not at all employed by adobe in any fashion. I have worked with the product over several months, however, and most here will not have had that opportunity. Was actually trying to be helpful…But enjoy the negativity if that is your preference.

Fair enough, but it sure was a good advert anyway.

You can get it on Amazon:

Full License:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DBOAX/newwriting / Upgrade:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DBOBZ/newwriting /

Thanks, but I won’t be upgrading to something I have no use for, which locks me into Adobe’s whims and has implications for my personal privacy.

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:46:40 -0000, "RTM"
wrote:

Thanks, but I’ll stick with my tried & trusted PS5.5. As far as I can see Photoshop ‘peaked’ with that version, it does what I want/need to do, and I know how to make it do what I want/need done. As far as CS is concerned (which I wouldn’t buy anyway, simply because of the product activation, regardless of its ‘improvements’) it would also mean upgrading the OS to W2k or XP (activation again), which in turn would probably throw up incompatibilities in other software, so *that* would then need ‘upgrading’ too, and so on and so on.

I wouldn’t have upgraded to XP if I wasn’t in a position to purchase the business (i.e. non-activation) version. And I can’t justify buying more than one copy plus an upgrade to CS when only one copy of the software is required just to get an activation free version. Which is why I won’t be upgrading either.

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

<< I have yet to see any visible evidence of a difference in the final result that I need…which would justify outlaying my money and my personal freedom on PS8. >>
You’d actually have to try the program and have purpose to use it — most likely professionally. Again, the interesting things are mostly for power users.
<< I prefer doing text in a vector app because I prefer using the best tool for the job (and that’s not Illustrator, btw, IMHO, of course). >> If you learned how to use the tools you have in PS, you probably wouldn’t need a vector application unless you are HEAVILY into vectors…spending more money is either a good idea, or it is not. If you haven’t upgraded since 5.5, there are certainly enough reasons in the subsequent versions to upgrade. Enhanced vector handling would be one of them (does 5.5 even have shape layers and the ability to save vector layers for print? I forget…but i thought that was in 6, and it would seem something you might have interest in).

It may be that you want not to buy this thing, and that is dandy…however, the point is not only your satisfaction, but the interest of other users as well. You may find healing directly to content to be good enough…and I don’t. But that doesn’t make the difference for me alone. There is almost never ONE feature you should upgrade for (except perhaps layers in PS3 and Actions in PS4), it is the package, as I have repeated now.

If all that you say about activation is true, they’d have done it on both platforms. I think they’d just like more profit from what may arguably be one of the most heavily pirated pieces of software on earth. I am not sure why it is software that everyone thinks it is OK to ‘borrow’ as most people don’t do same with cars. You buy a car when you need/want it, you don’t just go take it. It requires registration, a license, signing papers, and a whole lot more time than activation. This ‘horrible’ activation takes seconds…no longer than registering your product — which would be a good idea. Really it is ‘tough’ if you don’t like the price tag…however, Elements is available, and it is more than most people will ever need for editing images. Adobe put that out and they didn’t have to. Before you trash that comment too, yes, it can do curves, channels, vector editing, CMYK, clipping paths, and a lot more…you just have to know how (http://hiddenelements.com).

I have no desire to convince you, personally, to upgrade…was simply clarifying. There are plenty of reasons this is a good upgrade — perhaps not for you, but for others. Frankly I have more of a vested interest right now in promoting use of Elements (cheaper, versatile, fewer books) — it just so happens that I found the PS CS upgrade compelling. I am sorry you do not.

Richard Lynch
http://ps6.com

It seems Photoshop is drifting off course here.
Surely the point of Photoshop is the end result, the images. Its what you can do *with* the program, not *to* it.
As for the Help menu, who reads it? If people read the help menu this NG probably wouldn’t exist and you, as a PS Author, would very likely have been out of work long ago. Far easier to go online and ask a question and let someone else’s fingers do the walking.
—

Ron.

TheBookDoc wrote in message

snip<

*With customized shortcuts, gone are the days when you have to research

out a

shortcut that you knew you used once…and you get a new productivity

boost by

keying in your own without having to create
separate actions and use F keys. Not only do you have access to the

shortcut

listing from within Photoshop, and a very well presented interface for

changing

shortcuts, but you can print them all out. You can copy that shortcut file

and

take it with you to propagate on other machines, and customize personal

sets

for multiple users on any machine.

For newer users, the possibility of adding content to the Help menu will probably be a huge boon. Many experts will be interested in providing

quality

information- probably for free – to include on the
menu.

ARosenblat wrote:

Johan W. Elzenga

posted his website (http://www.johanfoto.nl/)in this string. It is awsome — one of the best collection of photographs I have ever seen on the web.

Thanks. Just by coincidence, I will add another page today!

—
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/

On 09 Nov 2003 06:57:22 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

<< I have yet to see any visible evidence of a difference in the final result that I need…which would justify outlaying my money and my personal freedom on PS8. >>
You’d actually have to try the program and have purpose to use it — most likely professionally. Again, the interesting things are mostly for power users.

Oh, I’ll probably try it out, but I still won’t buy it with activation. If, at some time in the future I require more than one copy (i.e my partner needs/requires the program) and I can get the non-activated business version, then I may upgrade. However, there’s nothing stopping producing professional results with 7, so,unless there’s a compelling reason which would mean I would lose money by not having it, I shan’t bother.

<< I prefer doing text in a vector app because I prefer using the best tool for the job (and that’s not Illustrator, btw, IMHO, of course). >> If you learned how to use the tools you have in PS, you probably wouldn’t need a vector application unless you are HEAVILY into vectors…spending more money is either a good idea, or it is not. If you haven’t upgraded since 5.5, there are certainly enough reasons in the subsequent versions to upgrade. Enhanced vector handling would be one of them (does 5.5 even have shape layers and the ability to save vector layers for print? I forget…but i thought that was in 6, and it would seem something you might have interest in).

Oh, I know how to use the tools I have in PS 7. I hope you’re not so damned condescending when you write your books – you won’t sell many copies. And yes, I use vectors a lot for artwork. My workflow uses both vector and raster as required. And I tend to use the program that is best for each rather than trying to make one program do everything. It makes far more sense.

I have v7.

It may be that you want not to buy this thing, and that is dandy…however, the point is not only your satisfaction, but the interest of other users as well. You may find healing directly to content to be good enough…and I don’t. But that doesn’t make the difference for me alone. There is almost never ONE feature you should upgrade for (except perhaps layers in PS3 and Actions in PS4), it is the package, as I have repeated now.

Uh-huh. I would certainly agree that you never update for only one feature. But I wouldn’t "boost" a program on the basis that something in it, like healing that you mentioned, has an improvement that is useful if you don’t know what you’re doing. Basically, if you don’t know what you’re doing you should find something easier to use.

If all that you say about activation is true, they’d have done it on both platforms. I think they’d just like more profit from what may arguably be one of the most heavily pirated pieces of software on earth. I am not sure why it is software that everyone thinks it is OK to ‘borrow’ as most people don’t do same with cars. You buy a car when you need/want it, you don’t just go take it. It requires registration, a license, signing papers, and a whole lot more time than activation. This ‘horrible’ activation takes seconds…no longer than registering your product — which would be a good idea. Really it is ‘tough’ if you don’t like the price tag…however, Elements is available, and it is more than most people will ever need for editing images. Adobe put that out and they didn’t have to. Before you trash that comment too, yes, it can do curves, channels, vector editing, CMYK, clipping paths, and a lot more…you just have to know how (http://hiddenelements.com).

But Elements doesn’ have the printing options and destroys any idea of professional output. Fine if your living doesn’t depend on it.

As for your car analogy – I don’t have to ask the car maker for permission to start my car every time I’ve had a repair done – which you do every time you have to reinstall PS, for whatever reason. I also won’t have my car maker telling me that the cars two years hold and I have to upgrade to a new one if I want to continue having a motor vehicle. You miss the point entirely – i don’t object to the time, i object to the whole principle and don’t trust Adobe (or any other company like it) at all. Nor do I want to have to provide them with my personal details just so I can have the privilege of using their software and so they can have the benefit of selling my details on.

I have no desire to convince you, personally, to upgrade…was simply clarifying. There are plenty of reasons this is a good upgrade — perhaps not for you, but for others. Frankly I have more of a vested interest right now in promoting use of Elements (cheaper, versatile, fewer books) — it just so happens that I found the PS CS upgrade compelling. I am sorry you do not.

No, you’re not trying to persuade me – but you are trying to persuade people and have a vested interest in doing so in terms of selling more books. However, you have at least revealed that and I never blame anyone for trying to make a living. 🙂

I would probably find it a lot more compelling without activation <shrug> I have a feeling a lot of freelancers will find it distinctly less compelling because of activation.

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

TheBookDoc wrote:

If all that you say about activation is true, they’d have done it on both platforms. I think they’d just like more profit from what may arguably be one of the most heavily pirated pieces of software on earth. I am not sure why it is software that everyone thinks it is OK to ‘borrow’ as most people don’t do same with cars. You buy a car when you need/want it, you don’t just go take it. It requires registration, a license, signing papers, and a whole lot more time than activation. This ‘horrible’ activation takes seconds…no longer than registering your product — which would be a good idea. Really it is ‘tough’ if you don’t like the price tag…however, Elements is available, and it is more than most people will ever need for editing images. Adobe put that out and they didn’t have to. Before you trash that comment too, yes, it can do curves, channels, vector editing, CMYK, clipping paths, and a lot more…you just have to know how (http://hiddenelements.com).

First: To my knowledge, Elements cannot do color, brightness and contrast adjustments in 16-bit.

Please, let us stop justifying Adobe’s Product Activation. Let us not swallow the justification from a large company which needs to control its customers for a number of reasons. It is a moot point whether or not everyone, a majority or a minority thinks it is okay to "borrow" software they way you present it.

If one does not like the price tag and does /not/ want to pay, then activation is a non-issue because such individuals will always seek cracked pirate versions which are sold on the streets for a fraction of what you have to shell out for the activation crippled product. In fact, it is more than likely that this way to treat honest customers will lead to a lowered threshold towards software piracy. Simply because honest customers get a crippled version, whereas the pirates can enjoy copies without such limitations. Many others will probably buy the legal license, and then acquire the crack so as to avoid the need for activation and dependence on the software company in order to use the software they must have for making and working with their own files. Of course, that is strictly illegal. But selling crippled software is not illegal. Truly, the software industry’s lobbyists and front organizations have done a great job, while consumer representatives never have had a seat at the table where copyright and patent laws were formed. (Why?)

I have paid for my copy of Photoshop, and here is my original CD and its box: http://www.coldsiberia.org/public/IMG_1099_800.jpg

I was never interested in piracy. I want to be able to install the program on my computer now and in the future without asking permission from anyone. I want to be able to reformat or change my hard drive, and to buy a new computer and transfer the program to it /without/ any need for activation and registration. This has nothing with a desire to pirate the program to do, and please understand this. Nor do I intend to install the program on more than one machine at a time, because I cannot work with more computers than the one I have.

Why should a large company’s desire to control its customers be given greater weight than the users’ desire and need to have working tools which they can install and run independent from the software company and any registration and activation servers? It should be considered fundamental that a working tool must be controlled entirely by its user, not by its manufacturer.

Lastly, who will have to pay for the costs of activation servers, for the phone operators who must be available at all times in order to ensure access to activation? Who must pay for the totally dysfunctional functions built into the programs, and which contribute nothing to its functionality?

The truth is that if a computer program is incapable of being installed and run whenever the user wants and without any need to be "activated" or registered, it is crippled. Companies selling crippled software are worse pirates than people who are copying software, because they want to force us to pay for crippled programs.

It is also noteworthy that the companies that have introduced Product Activation, Microsoft, Adobe and Macromedia, all have done it at a point in time where they had won a near total dominance for their respective products on the market. That should tell us something. This is about customer lock-in and control.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway

Hecate wrote:

On 08 Nov 2003 10:45:26 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

Which isn’t a problem if you want to use the software legally.

Oh, you are joking I hope? Let’s see why have Adobe started using activation. Not the reason they give. There were usable cracks out before Adobe even officially released the software. Hackers are far more efficient than Adobe. it has absolutely nothing to do with legality and everything to do with marketing. First, they get a nice captive user base whose details they can sell on for a nice profit. Then there’s the added advantage of, in a couple of years saying, well, we’re just not activating that version any more, so I’m very sorry you had to reinstall, but you’ll have to upgrade to the new version. Don’t like the price? Tough. And so forth.

We have no way to know when Adobe will discontinue Product Activation. I would be surprised if they do so after just a couple of years, I would assume at least several more years, but the thing is that you never know. Also, I have understood the activation process to be anonymous, thus in itself no threat to privacy as such.

I say this because we need to be extremely realistic and sound in order to make people listen to us instead to the software industry. If we base our argumentation against Product Activation on the premise that activation for the current version will very soon be dropped, the software companies only have to convince the users that the activation service will be maintained into eternity. If we depict a monstrous threat to privacy, all they need to do is to tell people that there is nothing to fear.

The arguments against activation are of course related to the very likely possibility of eventual discontinuation of the support for your version, but they are more complex and yet very fundamental:

* With Product Activation, you cannot install on your present machine or your future one without being at the mercy of the software company and its activation service. Whether the activation service is discontinued tomorrow or not is a separate issue. The point is that you, who need the program in order to create and to subsequently access and work with what you created, have been denied the right to install and use the tool independent from the company that manufactured it. In other words, the use of your personal computer, and the access to your personal data, is made dependent on a software company’s activation service and their willingness to activate your installations for you now and in the future.

This is in principle /not/ tolerable.

* If people accept Product Activation, software companies will feel encouraged to extend the practice, and to burden ever more software programs with it. Hence, customer acceptance paves the way for a situation where future computer owners are forced to sit with PC’s where most of the software programs need to be activated at every new install from scratch, every install after reformat, and similarly every install on the machine you buy in the future.

This is /not/ tolerable.

For those many who want to use software legally, it is even more intolerable.

To state that Product Activation – permanent dependence on a software company’s activation services in order to be able to run a personal computer, create, access and work with our personal files and data – is not a problem for the honest users, is either an unprecedented height of folly or a open support for the proprietary software industry’s lock-in schemes and straitjackets. Which plagues the /honest/ customers, and not the pirates.

It is probable that a main rationale behind Product Activation is a desire to change customer expectations about what one can do or not do with a software product, and that this is as important in their schemes as the avoidance of piracy. By making the use of a program forever dependent on the manufacturer’s control, customers will experience a reduction of the feeling of ‘owning’ something. When people buy a perpetual license and a program that can be run indefinitely, installed without restrictions on the machine one has now or the one one buys next year or later, many are likely to keep these working tools for a long period of time.

The software companies do not like that. They want a fast upgrade cycle because their organizations are built on a business model that presupposes a constant and large revenue stream. Therefore they want to use what mechanisms they can to make people upgrade the software. Product Activation will subtly undermine the customers’ feeling that the software they have paid for is now ‘theirs,’ making it likely that they will upgrade faster. Also, if the software industry can manage to eliminate that feeling to a large extent, they will have prepared for the realization of their wet dream: To make software into a subscription service that cannot be installed or run independently on a single machine.

If we as computer users do not want this scenario to prevail, we need to take a firm and uncompromising stand against Product Activation and similar schemes.

By the way, there is always Linux and Free Software, which the proprietary software industry fights against with all their might.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
http://www.efn.no/free-desktop.html

You can hate Product Activation all you want, but I fear it is going to be a fact of computer life. BTW, add Symantec to your list of companies using product activation. Norton Antivirus 2004 must be activated after installation or it stops working fifteen days after installation.

Yes it’s a PITA, but I’m learning to live with it. WinXP is my only real problem. I bought a copy of WinXP Pro, installed it on a computer and the system was a dog. I’ve reformatted the system and installed Win2K instead. I cannot reactivate my copy of WinXP on a new PC until 120 days after initial activation. Such is life. It will take me that long to decide on and buy a new computer anyway.

Also for your info, I hate Bill Gates’ marketing tactics, but I do like Win2K as an operating system and have not found an office suite as nice as Office. (Yes, I did a Linux experiment for nearly a year: great server OS, lousy desktop applications). Same story for Adobe. I don’t like what activation represents, but I think highly enough of the product that I’m willing to live with it to get Photoshop and the entire Creative Suite. Oh, for the record, I think OS/2 Warp 4 is the greatest operating system for desktop use and my copies of DeScribe and Mesa/2 blow Word and Excel out of the water. Too bad they died an untimely death because IBM did not plan their fight well enough.

"pioe[rmv]" <"pioe[rmv]"@coldsiberia.org> wrote in message

Hecate wrote:

On 08 Nov 2003 10:45:26 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

Which isn’t a problem if you want to use the software legally.

Oh, you are joking I hope? Let’s see why have Adobe started using activation. Not the reason they give. There were usable cracks out before Adobe even officially released the software. Hackers are far more efficient than Adobe. it has absolutely nothing to do with legality and everything to do with marketing. First, they get a nice captive user base whose details they can sell on for a nice profit. Then there’s the added advantage of, in a couple of years saying, well, we’re just not activating that version any more, so I’m very sorry you had to reinstall, but you’ll have to upgrade to the new version. Don’t like the price? Tough. And so forth.

We have no way to know when Adobe will discontinue Product Activation. I would be surprised if they do so after just a couple of years, I would assume at least several more years, but the thing is that you never know. Also, I have understood the activation process to be anonymous, thus in itself no threat to privacy as such.

I say this because we need to be extremely realistic and sound in order to make people listen to us instead to the software industry. If we base our argumentation against Product Activation on the premise that activation for the current version will very soon be dropped, the software companies only have to convince the users that the activation service will be maintained into eternity. If we depict a monstrous threat to privacy, all they need to do is to tell people that there is nothing to fear.

The arguments against activation are of course related to the very likely possibility of eventual discontinuation of the support for your version, but they are more complex and yet very fundamental:
* With Product Activation, you cannot install on your present machine or your future one without being at the mercy of the software company and its activation service. Whether the activation service is discontinued tomorrow or not is a separate issue. The point is that you, who need the program in order to create and to subsequently access and work with what you created, have been denied the right to install and use the tool independent from the company that manufactured it. In other words, the use of your personal computer, and the access to your personal data, is made dependent on a software company’s activation service and their willingness to activate your installations for you now and in the future.

This is in principle /not/ tolerable.

* If people accept Product Activation, software companies will feel encouraged to extend the practice, and to burden ever more software programs with it. Hence, customer acceptance paves the way for a situation where future computer owners are forced to sit with PC’s where most of the software programs need to be activated at every new install from scratch, every install after reformat, and similarly every install on the machine you buy in the future.

This is /not/ tolerable.

For those many who want to use software legally, it is even more intolerable.

To state that Product Activation – permanent dependence on a software company’s activation services in order to be able to run a personal computer, create, access and work with our personal files and data – is not a problem for the honest users, is either an unprecedented height of folly or a open support for the proprietary software industry’s lock-in schemes and straitjackets. Which plagues the /honest/ customers, and not the pirates.

It is probable that a main rationale behind Product Activation is a desire to change customer expectations about what one can do or not do with a software product, and that this is as important in their schemes as the avoidance of piracy. By making the use of a program forever dependent on the manufacturer’s control, customers will experience a reduction of the feeling of ‘owning’ something. When people buy a perpetual license and a program that can be run indefinitely, installed without restrictions on the machine one has now or the one one buys next year or later, many are likely to keep these working tools for a long period of time.

The software companies do not like that. They want a fast upgrade cycle because their organizations are built on a business model that presupposes a constant and large revenue stream. Therefore they want to use what mechanisms they can to make people upgrade the software. Product Activation will subtly undermine the customers’ feeling that the software they have paid for is now ‘theirs,’ making it likely that they will upgrade faster. Also, if the software industry can manage to eliminate that feeling to a large extent, they will have prepared for the realization of their wet dream: To make software into a subscription service that cannot be installed or run independently on a single machine.

If we as computer users do not want this scenario to prevail, we need to take a firm and uncompromising stand against Product Activation and similar schemes.

By the way, there is always Linux and Free Software, which the proprietary software industry fights against with all their might.
Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
http://www.efn.no/free-desktop.html

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:31:00 GMT, "Major Malfunction" wrote:

Yes it’s a PITA, but I’m learning to live with it. WinXP is my only real problem. I bought a copy of WinXP Pro, installed it on a computer and the system was a dog. I’ve reformatted the system and installed Win2K instead. I cannot reactivate my copy of WinXP on a new PC until 120 days after initial activation. Such is life. It will take me that long to decide on and buy a new computer anyway.

What led you to the conclusion that you have to wait 120 days to reactivate? A call to Microsoft using the telephone number displayed in their activation screens should allow you to activate over the telephone after explaining your situation. I have not heard of MS denying a telephone reactivation to a valid user. After 120 days, apparently, the built-in activation scheme resets itself to allow automatic activation over the interent for significant hardware changes.

MarkS

Major Malfunction wrote:

You can hate Product Activation all you want, but I fear it is going to be a fact of computer life. BTW, add Symantec to your list of companies using product activation. Norton Antivirus 2004 must be activated after installation or it stops working fifteen days after installation.

It is not about "hating" it. It is about creating a greater awareness that Product Activation cannot be accepted because it means that the software, and thereby the whole computer and indirectly also the data which cannot be accessed or manipulated without the software, is controlled not by the user, but by the software company that decides to attach strings to their products.

Yes it’s a PITA, but I’m learning to live with it.

Chances are, more people are learning how to crack and cheat. When people are treated like this, they react accordingly. That is also a sad thing; the mutual respect between producer and buyer is being eroded by these highly questionable business practices.

By the way, Linux has made major strides the last year.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
http://www.efn.no/free-desktop.html

"MarkS" wrote in message

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:31:00 GMT, "Major Malfunction" wrote:

Yes it’s a PITA, but I’m learning to live with it. WinXP is my only real problem. I bought a copy of WinXP Pro, installed it on a computer and the system was a dog. I’ve reformatted the system and installed Win2K

instead. I

cannot reactivate my copy of WinXP on a new PC until 120 days after

initial

activation. Such is life. It will take me that long to decide on and buy

a

new computer anyway.

What led you to the conclusion that you have to wait 120 days to reactivate? A call to Microsoft using the telephone number displayed in their activation screens should allow you to activate over the telephone after explaining your situation. I have not heard of MS denying a telephone reactivation to a valid user. After 120 days, apparently, the built-in activation scheme resets itself to allow automatic activation over the interent for significant hardware changes.

The waiting is my choice. I tried dealing with MS for a WinXP installation with no Internet connection, or modem of any kind. The installation was successful, but the string of numbers required made me swear never to do it again. In my case, waiting the 120 days is fine as I’m not in a hurry to replace the computer. It works great with Windows 2000.

"pioe(rmv)" <"pioe(rmv)"@coldsiberia.org> wrote in message

Major Malfunction wrote:

You can hate Product Activation all you want, but I fear it is going to

be a

fact of computer life. BTW, add Symantec to your list of companies using product activation. Norton Antivirus 2004 must be activated after installation or it stops working fifteen days after installation.

It is not about "hating" it. It is about creating a greater awareness that Product Activation cannot be accepted because it means that the software, and thereby the whole computer and indirectly also the data which cannot be accessed or manipulated without the software, is controlled not by the user, but by the software company that decides to attach strings to their products.

Yes it’s a PITA, but I’m learning to live with it.

Chances are, more people are learning how to crack and cheat. When people are treated like this, they react accordingly. That is also a sad thing; the mutual respect between producer and buyer is being eroded by these highly questionable business practices.

It’s chicken and egg situation. If more people were ethical about software copyrights, software vendors could be more humane towards their customers. As software vendors become more totalitarian, more people will be seeking ways to get back at the vendors. I for one am not going to point fingers over who started the problem.

By the way, Linux has made major strides the last year.

Yes, I’ve used Linux and have a great deal of respect for it, but I can’t run my apps of choice on it, so it is worthless to me. If I were running a server, I might consider it, but it does not support my daily apps. Same story with my favorite desktop operating system, OS/2. I eventually gave it up because products I needed were not being developed for the operating system.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:31:00 GMT, "Major Malfunction" wrote:

You can hate Product Activation all you want, but I fear it is going to be a fact of computer life. BTW, add Symantec to your list of companies using product activation. Norton Antivirus 2004 must be activated after installation or it stops working fifteen days after installation.

Only if people let them get away with it by buying the product.

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

Not only should you not buy the product but you should make a point of emailing the company to let them know WHY you are not buying their product. If Activation is about collecting information the let them be informed how many sales they are losing because of it.
—

Ron.

Hecate wrote in message

Only if people let them get away with it by buying the product.
—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:30:58 -0000, "RTM"
wrote:

Not only should you not buy the product but you should make a point of emailing the company to let them know WHY you are not buying their product. If Activation is about collecting information the let them be informed how many sales they are losing because of it.

yes, I agree. I have already written to Adobe, and my next mail is going to Norton telling them why they are losing two sales of Systemworks. 🙂

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

Hecate wrote:

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:30:58 -0000, "RTM"
wrote:

Not only should you not buy the product but you should make a point of emailing the company to let them know WHY you are not buying their product. If Activation is about collecting information the let them be informed how many sales they are losing because of it.

yes, I agree. I have already written to Adobe, and my next mail is going to Norton telling them why they are losing two sales of Systemworks. 🙂

I don’t use Norton product, but Photoshop I am not going to spend my money that I don’t have full control of what I pay for, so I am pretty sure I won’t upgrade to CS.

I looked at Norton Antivirus 2004 in a local branch of Curry’s yesterday. I could find no mention on the outside packaging that the product required Activation.
Seems you only find this out AFTER you’ve spent your money. Even more devious.
—

Ron.

Joe wrote in message

I don’t use Norton product, but Photoshop I am not going to spend my money that I don’t have full control of what I pay for, so I am pretty sure I won’t upgrade to CS.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:44:34 -0000, "RTM"
wrote:

I looked at Norton Antivirus 2004 in a local branch of Curry’s yesterday. I could find no mention on the outside packaging that the product required Activation.
Seems you only find this out AFTER you’ve spent your money. Even more devious.

That’s really nasty. problem is, NAV is probably the best AV. Still there are plenty others out there and I’m looking at getting Command AV (UK company) and Diskeeper as a replacement for SpeedDisk. There are one or two things I’ll miss from not having Systemworks, but I’m confident I can find good shareware to replace them.

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

"Hecate" wrote in message

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:44:34 -0000, "RTM"

That’s really nasty. problem is, NAV is probably the best AV. Still there are plenty others out there and I’m looking at getting Command AV (UK company) and Diskeeper as a replacement for SpeedDisk. There are one or two things I’ll miss from not having Systemworks, but I’m confident I can find good shareware to replace them.

Hecate,

There are some pretty good freeware ones as well… AVG from www.grisoft.com is one…

Cheers…

JJ

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:42:23 +0530, "Jay Jhabrix" wrote:

"Hecate" wrote in message

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:44:34 -0000, "RTM"

That’s really nasty. problem is, NAV is probably the best AV. Still there are plenty others out there and I’m looking at getting Command AV (UK company) and Diskeeper as a replacement for SpeedDisk. There are one or two things I’ll miss from not having Systemworks, but I’m confident I can find good shareware to replace them.

Hecate,

There are some pretty good freeware ones as well… AVG from www.grisoft.com is one…

Cheers…

JJ

Thanks JJ. Yes I’d heard about AVG on The Bat discussion list, but I’d never investigated it. Thanks for reminding me 🙂

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

Jason …

On 08 Nov 2003 11:05:07 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

<< >16 bit is VERY interesting,
I wouldn’t call it *very*. >>

I agree…it is a nice thing to have, but not imperative. In fact I share If you don’t need these things, you should use elements instead. You don’t need Photoshop’s tools and can save a lot on a simpler program for streamlined image editing:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006ANW9/newwriting /
… How’s that for an unpopular expression.

Richard Lynch
http://hiddenelements.com

ichard,

I’ll join you in an unpopular expression. I’ve been using Photoshop since version 4, and my impression version 8 (CS) is that it is so far ahead of version 7, for my needs, that I wonder how I ever coped with earlier versions.

As a Canon 10D user, the ability to handle RAW and 16 bit files is fantastic, You don’t even have to convert the RAW files. Select the image you want in the file browser, apply colour balance (Kelvin if you wish), and all the other options, which you can preview, open the file and work on it in 16 bit, Then save it in the desired format.
The new keyboard shortcuts feature is a stunner. Select a function and assign a shortcut. You get informative warning iif the shortcut is already in use. Once you accept a shortcut it then appears on the menu against that item. So if you forget what your shortcut is, you can remind yourself by using the menu for that function.
Use the browser to select a batch of photos, and with one click you have a PDF file to send to a friend. And so on.

The Shadow/Highlight feature is awesome for increasing the shadow detail of a photo without affecting the midtones or highlights.
For me, the difference with Photoshop CS just goes on and on, and the really great thing is that most of my old images look so much better after a few minutes treatment in Photoshop CS. The only photos that don’t benefit are those that I got right in the first place.
I suspect that a truly expert and professional user of Photoshop can do with version 4 most of the core colour correction, sharpening and other adjustments that could be done in Photoshop 8. But for a user like myself, the latest version of Photoshop is a major advance on previous versions for making the amazing capabilities of Photoshop more accessible to the ordinary user.

The Shadow/Highlight feature in particular does in a mouse click what normally requires two images with different exposures and a complex operation of layers, blending modes and transperancy.

Jason

I am having a problem with the CS browser. When I go to the file browser, I still see all my open palettes. I know I can press TAB and they disappear but in PS 7 the palettes did not appear. How can I fix.

Hmm, you don’t work for Adobe’s PR company do you? Sounds like it.

For me, the cost of the upgrade puts CS out of the question. I’m increasingly moving over to PSP, which in V8 is truly wonderful. I know there are things it doesn’t have but as it moves to V9, V10 etc I suspect it will ofer better value than PS or Elements.

What’s clear is Adobe doesn’t want customers like me, an individual who uses PS instead of a darkroom. They are concentrating on design studios and the like who can set the extortionate cost of PS against client accounts and will pay through the nose. Fine, that’s their marketing decision. But I wonder long term if it is right.

JSH
"Louis" wrote in message

Jason wrote in message

news:…

On 08 Nov 2003 11:05:07 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

<< >16 bit is VERY interesting,
I wouldn’t call it *very*. >>

I agree…it is a nice thing to have, but not imperative. In fact I

share

If you don’t need these things, you should use elements instead. You

don’t need

Photoshop’s tools and can save a lot on a simpler program for

streamlined image

editing:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006ANW9/newwriting /
… How’s that for an unpopular expression.

Richard Lynch
http://hiddenelements.com

ichard,

I’ll join you in an unpopular expression. I’ve been using Photoshop since version 4, and my impression version 8 (CS) is that it is so far ahead of version 7, for my needs, that I wonder how I ever coped with earlier versions.

As a Canon 10D user, the ability to handle RAW and 16 bit files is fantastic, You don’t even have to convert the RAW files. Select the image you want in the file browser, apply colour balance (Kelvin if you wish), and all the other options, which you can preview, open the file and work on it in 16 bit, Then save it in the desired format.
The new keyboard shortcuts feature is a stunner. Select a function and assign a shortcut. You get informative warning iif the shortcut is already in use. Once you accept a shortcut it then appears on the menu against that item. So if you forget what your shortcut is, you can remind yourself by using the menu for that function.
Use the browser to select a batch of photos, and with one click you have a PDF file to send to a friend. And so on.

The Shadow/Highlight feature is awesome for increasing the shadow detail of a photo without affecting the midtones or highlights.
For me, the difference with Photoshop CS just goes on and on, and the really great thing is that most of my old images look so much better after a few minutes treatment in Photoshop CS. The only photos that don’t benefit are those that I got right in the first place.
I suspect that a truly expert and professional user of Photoshop can do with version 4 most of the core colour correction, sharpening and other adjustments that could be done in Photoshop 8. But for a user like myself, the latest version of Photoshop is a major advance on previous versions for making the amazing capabilities of Photoshop more accessible to the ordinary user.

The Shadow/Highlight feature in particular does in a mouse click what normally requires two images with different exposures and a complex operation of layers, blending modes and transperancy.

Jason

I am having a problem with the CS browser. When I go to the file browser, I still see all my open palettes. I know I can press TAB and they disappear but in PS 7 the palettes did not appear. How can I fix.

"J S Harris" wrote in message

Hmm, you don’t work for Adobe’s PR company do you? Sounds like it.
For me, the cost of the upgrade puts CS out of the question. I’m increasingly moving over to PSP, which in V8 is truly wonderful. I know there are things it doesn’t have but as it moves to V9, V10 etc I suspect

it

will ofer better value than PS or Elements.

What’s clear is Adobe doesn’t want customers like me, an individual who

uses

PS instead of a darkroom. They are concentrating on design studios and

the

like who can set the extortionate cost of PS against client accounts and will pay through the nose. Fine, that’s their marketing decision. But I wonder long term if it is right.

As I single user, not a design studio, I think the decision is the right one. I’m still learring to use the pieces of the Creative Suite, but it is a quantum leap from the tools I was previously using. I’m not even using 1% of PhotoShop and I’m already doing things I could not do in PSE.

Yes it’s pricey, but I am satisfied with the quality and feel the product is priced appropriately. I’ll skip the entire story of the farmer buying oats, but yeah you can save money of you are satisfied with oats that have been through the horse once already. If you want top quality oats, you pay top price.

Before trying PhotoShop through a trial version of PhotoShop 7, I had tried a few other programs. For me, they all had problems I could not live with. PhotoShop just felt "right". Everyone is an individual, so YMMV. I still feel PhotoShop is a top quality product, I’m glad I own it and I will continue to use it for quite a while.

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:16:39 +0000 (UTC), "J S Harris" posted:

Hmm, you don’t work for Adobe’s PR company do you? Sounds like it.
For me, the cost of the upgrade puts CS out of the question. I’m increasingly moving over to PSP, which in V8 is truly wonderful. I know there are things it doesn’t have but as it moves to V9, V10 etc I suspect it will ofer better value than PS or Elements.

does psp support actions, 16bit editing, and lanczos or vector interpolation?

What’s clear is Adobe doesn’t want customers like me, an individual who uses PS instead of a darkroom. They are concentrating on design studios and the like who can set the extortionate cost of PS against client accounts and will pay through the nose. Fine, that’s their marketing decision. But I wonder long term if it is right.

JSH
"Louis" wrote in message

Jason wrote in message

news:…

On 08 Nov 2003 11:05:07 GMT, (TheBookDoc) wrote:

<< >16 bit is VERY interesting,
I wouldn’t call it *very*. >>

I agree…it is a nice thing to have, but not imperative. In fact I

share

If you don’t need these things, you should use elements instead. You

don’t need

Photoshop’s tools and can save a lot on a simpler program for

streamlined image

editing:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006ANW9/newwriting /
… How’s that for an unpopular expression.

Richard Lynch
http://hiddenelements.com

ichard,

I’ll join you in an unpopular expression. I’ve been using Photoshop since version 4, and my impression version 8 (CS) is that it is so far ahead of version 7, for my needs, that I wonder how I ever coped with earlier versions.

As a Canon 10D user, the ability to handle RAW and 16 bit files is fantastic, You don’t even have to convert the RAW files. Select the image you want in the file browser, apply colour balance (Kelvin if you wish), and all the other options, which you can preview, open the file and work on it in 16 bit, Then save it in the desired format.
The new keyboard shortcuts feature is a stunner. Select a function and assign a shortcut. You get informative warning iif the shortcut is already in use. Once you accept a shortcut it then appears on the menu against that item. So if you forget what your shortcut is, you can remind yourself by using the menu for that function.
Use the browser to select a batch of photos, and with one click you have a PDF file to send to a friend. And so on.

The Shadow/Highlight feature is awesome for increasing the shadow detail of a photo without affecting the midtones or highlights.
For me, the difference with Photoshop CS just goes on and on, and the really great thing is that most of my old images look so much better after a few minutes treatment in Photoshop CS. The only photos that don’t benefit are those that I got right in the first place.
I suspect that a truly expert and professional user of Photoshop can do with version 4 most of the core colour correction, sharpening and other adjustments that could be done in Photoshop 8. But for a user like myself, the latest version of Photoshop is a major advance on previous versions for making the amazing capabilities of Photoshop more accessible to the ordinary user.

The Shadow/Highlight feature in particular does in a mouse click what normally requires two images with different exposures and a complex operation of layers, blending modes and transperancy.

Jason

I am having a problem with the CS browser. When I go to the file browser, I still see all my open palettes. I know I can press TAB and they disappear but in PS 7 the palettes did not appear. How can I fix.

someone wrote in message

does psp support actions,

Yes, ‘events’ can be recorded in a similar fashion to Actions, or programmed with the Python scripting language.

16bit editing,

No

and lanczos or vector interpolation?

PSP has built in support for Vector graphics.

—

Ron.

(someone) wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:16:39 +0000 (UTC), "J S Harris" posted:

Hmm, you don’t work for Adobe’s PR company do you? Sounds like it.
For me, the cost of the upgrade puts CS out of the question. I’m increasingly moving over to PSP, which in V8 is truly wonderful. I know there are things it doesn’t have but as it moves to V9, V10 etc I suspect it will ofer better value than PS or Elements.

does psp support actions, 16bit editing, and lanczos or vector interpolation?

I am not a PSP user but have looked at some versions for some minutes to have some idea what it is. I know it will require lot of time to master something, so there must be lot of things I don’t know about PSP. But in general, Photoshop has so many small finetune/features/options inside options that PSP and many other graphic program are lacking or not as good.

And if PSP is almost as good as Photoshop then I bet many professionals would help PSP to compete with Photoshop many years ago.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:38:55 -0600, (Joe) wrote:

(someone) wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:16:39 +0000 (UTC), "J S Harris" posted:

Hmm, you don’t work for Adobe’s PR company do you? Sounds like it.
For me, the cost of the upgrade puts CS out of the question. I’m increasingly moving over to PSP, which in V8 is truly wonderful. I know there are things it doesn’t have but as it moves to V9, V10 etc I suspect it will ofer better value than PS or Elements.

does psp support actions, 16bit editing, and lanczos or vector interpolation?

I am not a PSP user but have looked at some versions for some minutes to have some idea what it is. I know it will require lot of time to master something, so there must be lot of things I don’t know about PSP. But in general, Photoshop has so many small finetune/features/options inside options that PSP and many other graphic program are lacking or not as good.

And if PSP is almost as good as Photoshop then I bet many professionals would help PSP to compete with Photoshop many years ago.

Actually, I think Corel Painter is better than PSP anyway 🙂

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:38:55 -0600, (Joe) wrote:

(someone) wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:16:39 +0000 (UTC), "J S Harris" posted:

Hmm, you don’t work for Adobe’s PR company do you? Sounds like it.
For me, the cost of the upgrade puts CS out of the question. I’m increasingly moving over to PSP, which in V8 is truly wonderful. I know there are things it doesn’t have but as it moves to V9, V10 etc I suspect it will ofer better value than PS or Elements.

does psp support actions, 16bit editing, and lanczos or vector interpolation?

I am not a PSP user but have looked at some versions for some minutes to have some idea what it is. I know it will require lot of time to master something, so there must be lot of things I don’t know about PSP. But in general, Photoshop has so many small finetune/features/options inside options that PSP and many other graphic program are lacking or not as good.

And if PSP is almost as good as Photoshop then I bet many professionals would help PSP to compete with Photoshop many years ago.

Sorry, meant PhotoPaint, not Painter. So many bloody apps with Photo or Paint in the title… 😉

—

Hecate

veni, vidi, relinqui

Hecate wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:38:55 -0600, (Joe) wrote:

(someone) wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:16:39 +0000 (UTC), "J S Harris" posted:

Hmm, you don’t work for Adobe’s PR company do you? Sounds like it.
For me, the cost of the upgrade puts CS out of the question. I’m increasingly moving over to PSP, which in V8 is truly wonderful. I know there are things it doesn’t have but as it moves to V9, V10 etc I suspect it will ofer better value than PS or Elements.

does psp support actions, 16bit editing, and lanczos or vector interpolation?

I am not a PSP user but have looked at some versions for some minutes to have some idea what it is. I know it will require lot of time to master something, so there must be lot of things I don’t know about PSP. But in general, Photoshop has so many small finetune/features/options inside options that PSP and many other graphic program are lacking or not as good.

And if PSP is almost as good as Photoshop then I bet many professionals would help PSP to compete with Photoshop many years ago.

Actually, I think Corel Painter is better than PSP anyway 🙂

For the feel, I may go with Corel Paint cuz I have tried Corel Paint a little before. But there are so many small thing to make the final photo better than other, and I am not PSP user to know how good it’s. But I don’t think PSP is for me, and I may choose Corel Paint over PSP, but right now none can take PS away <g>

Actually, all you need to do to get Photoshop more affordably, is have a friend/relative/acquaintance who is a student, staff, or faculty at most colleges and jr. colleges.

Just give the person the money, and have that person buy it for you. That brings the prices down significantly, and with Adobe products, there isn’t any difference in functionality between the educational and normal versions.

The only difference is that you can’t use it commercially, but if you’re a freelancer, who would know anyway?

The main problem here is 1) if you’re like me or many of us, and resenting the whole idea of this new-fangled CS anyway; or 2) don’t have the money for the educational version.

But it *is* a genuine option that probably a lot of people don’t know about – and almost everyone knows at least *one* person in some way affiliated with a school (whether you know a student, or a teacher).