once they turn of UAC!
yea, but then what’s the point? MS’s whole push is "security". that means UAC!
friends don’t let friends install vista!
Turning off UAC brings security to about the same level as XP.
It’s an intrusive PITA designed for people that don’t know any better than to just run anything. They’re likely to just say yes to everything anyhow.
Bob
Te thing is that despite the issues with UAC it is very simmilar to what OSX has already and has had for some time, windows users just arn’t used to it.
As far as problems, vista is VERY new. XP actually had more issues and patches in it’s early day and so did pretty much every version of OSX. Leapord isn’t exactly a shining ball of compatability.
it will mature and get more stable and better support (like when NV get off there arses and actually have drivers out of beta), so will OSx 10.5.
BTW how many of the Vista sucks comments were from Mac users?
BRETT
I don’t know anyone who regrets using Vista once they turn of UAC!
Once all your software is installed you should see very few UAC pop-ups unless you are running things like msconfig or regedit.
—
Charlie…
http://www.chocphoto.com
Well UAC is really useless for an advanced user. My systems have been locked down the same way for years without any problems.
it will mature and get more stable and better support
no it won’t. it’s the new windows me. by the time they’re close to getting it right, ms will be releasing the new operating system (2010 if you believe ms) and there’ll be no reason to go to vista.
Dave, I respect your opinion but I think you’re a bit off base here. You’re making comments about an operating system you’re not using full time and posting links that are almost a year old to back it up.
I’ve been playing with Vista here on a test machine for a while. I’m getting to know the little quirks that come with anything new. Why not do the same thing?
As for the next version of Windows in 2010…I’ll believe it when I see it.
Bob
and posting links that are almost a year old to back it up
in another thread i posted in response to your question about the speed differences between systems with xp sp3 and vista xp1, that’s the latest and greatest news there is bob. now, i liked windows me and never had a day’s problem with it. i’m just saying i’ve been around a long time and i call em like i see em! businesses aren’t going to vista and unless that happens (and it won’t given the time frames) you’ve got the next windows me on your hands.
As for the next version of Windows in 2010…I’ll believe it when I see it.
well you can blame microsoft for making the announcement. remember how they froze the os market for almost 3 years by announcing windows 95 back in 92?!! os/2 shoulda been the dominant os by then by the ms fud machine rolled them over. this time their vaporware announcement may come back to bite them instead of the competition.
all i’m saying is that given the current state of affairs and given the choice i’d recommend xp pro over vista every time.
Dave, I respect your opinion
oh, and thanks for that. I respect you and your’s a lot as well Bob. i’ve learned tons about every aspect of computing and photoshop from you over the years!
cheers, dave
I think a lot of the speed issues get solved as new hardware hits the market. Remember when XP was released and machines were shipped with 128 megs of RAM? The hardware caught up…When was the last time you saw a machine for sale with less than 512 megs?
Smart businesses don’t adopt new operating systems right out of the gate unless there’s some serious upside to it. I didn’t see any businesses jumping on XP either. After all, Windows 2000 was just fine.
I’ll bet plenty of people here would have stuck with that if Adobe hadn’t dropped support for it.
Now, to wrap up my $0.02. I’m not promoting a switch to Vista. In fact, when friends or clients ask about new machines I still recommend XP since they’re comfortable with it. But I know a few people that bought new Vista machines and they’re very happy with them.
Bob
Bob,
I don’t see Dave’s "year old links" but how about some newer ones?
I have long said that M$ broke Vista’s Color Management (because they intended to implement a ‘new’ proprietary M$ color system – one they couldn’t get to work for the release). But hear it from others:
from November 24:
"..native color management is still broken and only iffy at best if the video driver is designed to deal with Vista’s limitations. Vista’s screen and mouse control system is also less accurate, which can be critical depending on your photo editing needs."
<
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/591219>
Or From August:
<
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/vista/broken_windows. html>
To analogize what M$ has done to color management think about this:
I have a car with 4 cylinders and I decide to buy a new one. The dealer sells me a "4 cylinder engine car." I drive it awhile, it gets me to work ok… ..if I’m patient with a nagging sluggishness. I’m using the same gas as always, I wonder "WTF is wrong?" I finally open the hood and find I have an 8 cylinder engine with the spark plug cables for only four cylinders actually connected. I go back, tell the dealer I want my money back.
By your rules, I should be happy… ..after all, I did get a four cylinder car that does get me where I intend.
Keith
I didn’t see any businesses jumping on XP either. After all, Windows 2000 was just fine.
for that, no they didn’t JUMP, but the integration departments started testing as soon as it was released. it often takes years for the testing to complete in a large corporation. i’m not seeing that with vista.
so then aside from the vaunted security features that are lost when you turn off uac, what’s the compelling reason to go to vista? the file system was stripped. well, there’s drm, oh and unless they do turn off uac hundreds of people in in every location will spend half their day responding to nag screens. productivity gains? nope.
I’m not promoting a switch to Vista. In fact, when friends or clients ask about new machines I still recommend XP since they’re comfortable with it. But I know a few people that bought new Vista machines and they’re very happy with them.
good man! 🙂 then i can understand why you’d want to learn it. i’m tempted to load it myself on one of my machines when i do my next format (msdn subscriber so i have my pick o’the litter) for just that reason.
from November 24:
Did you read that entire thread? There seems to be some positive responses there about Vista.
Bob
good man! 🙂
Right back atcha!
Bob
Okay, now how about: "osx sucks" 2940 Results. But MAYBE people put a space between os and x so: "os x sucks" 5970 Results.
Ender: Right on.
And remember OS X has been out there for at least six years.
One problem with Vista seems to be that eye candy and superfluous "security" features had to make the release ahead of the less marketable speed and stability and colour handling.
So we get a dog. A pretty dog, but a dog nevertheless.
I won’t be switching till I have no option. (And I hope Dave is right!)
Yet another triumph of marketing over engineering.
unless they do turn off uac hundreds of people in in every location will spend half their day responding to nag screens.
Hmm. I must be doing something wrong. I have UAC on and only see nag screens when I install software or edit the registry.
I certainly wouldn’t say Vista is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it isn’t nearly as difficult to use as a lot of people who apparently have never run it say it is. 😉
—
Charlie…
http://www.chocphoto.com
Hmm. I must be doing something wrong. I have UAC on and only see nag screens when I install software or edit the registry.
so basically after new machines are installed (that’s usually when you’re busy installing new programs). right? 🙂 how about when a program wants to "call home"?
again, i’m just saying, the corporate testing depts are mostly still just messing with it. no one is seriously considering installing it in multi thousand seat configurations. (yes, i’m sure i could google and find some MS PR to the contrary, just my experiences.)
oh, and i agree with toby. ender that was one of the funniest posts evah. did you really google all those numbers or did you pull that list complete off of somewhere?
how about when a program wants to "call home"?
If you mean check for updates, there’s no pop up unless there is an update and you chose to install it.
again, i’m just saying, the corporate testing depts are mostly still just messing with it.
My wife’s IT department just went to XP last year.
—
Charlie…
http://www.chocphoto.com
My wife’s IT department just went to XP last year.
right. testing is just finishing up. we just officially went to xp 2 years ago and it’s been out since what 2001 or 2? and sp2 only this year. there are SO many apps in a modern corp env that testing them all takes years. if they started testing vista NOW, which most are not, the new os will be out by then. many will have switched to osx or some form of linux or will still be running xp by then, so visa will be left behind. windows me’vista.
so visa will be left behind. windows me’vista.
Actually, using your logic, IT departments will switch to Vista about the time its’ successor comes out. 😉 In reality, though, since most new corporate apps are server based, what OS is running the ‘browser’ portion on the desktop will become less and less important – just semi dumb terminals on a ‘mainframe’. —
Charlie…
http://www.chocphoto.com
Actually, using your logic, IT departments will switch to Vista about the time its’ successor comes out.
you’re right, they would, if they had started testing and integrating already. my point was that they (mostly) haven’t. they’ve mostly decided to wait it out. more-so now that ms has "frozen" the market by saying the new os will be out "soon". imo that was a really dumb pr move! like at&t saying that next year’s iPhones will be on faster networks than the current ones, ahem, right before the christmas buying season! ( <
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/30/tech/main3557741.s html> )
hat OS is running the ‘browser’ portion on the desktop will become less and less important
again right. but by that measure the smart ones will figure out that they can run linux for a fraction of the cost to run ANY version of windows.
<Randell>Shh! Shh! Shh! You hear that? That’s the winds of change!</Randell> 🙂
Well I was on WIN2K since it came out. When I got the new machine this year I got Vista Ultimate. Sure there were teething problems, but it runs like a charm now.
As far as Vista Aero interface, well some programs will only run with Vista Basic, but that is not MS’s fault. I run Maya 4.5 which was released pre-XP(August 2002) and it does not turn off the Aero interface. Take that MacDobe.
When I got the new machine this year I got Vista Ultimate.
there you go. that’s about the only legit reason to upgrade. if you don’t have a choice when buying a new system, or like me and bob, you may want to become familiar with it to support your friends who got stuck with it run it. 🙂
you get a pass ID! 🙂
Well, there’s a bit more to it for me.
I’m building this machine and want to go 64 bit since I run InDesign Photoshop Illustrator Acrobat and Outlook at the same time.
When the files get big things slow down. With a 64 bit O/S I can spread 8 gigs of RAM around pretty nicely. So the choice was XP or Vista.
There’s simply not enough support for XP64 so Vista was the way to go.
Bob
hmm… again though, a specialized case. people are still running DOS in specialized cases (or Mac OS9). should everyone "upgrade" to those?
grandma certainly doesn’t need to run InDesign Photoshop Illustrator Acrobat and Outlook at the same time. neither do most corporate drones. (i’m one! i can call them drones! <g>) She needs a mail app and a maybe a small imaging app and a word processor. for instance, i’m running open office and gimp on this laptop with no problems.
frankly i’m very surprised that linux isn’t catching on faster as all these basic things can be done with open source sw.
Dave: I have XP on my backup machine but never really took to it, I got Vista Ultimate because I wanted to experiment with a 64bit OS and still have a 32bit backup just in case. It has been fun and I was just a’funnin’ y’all. Thanks for the ‘pass’, I think.
but never really took to it
with the xp candy interface turned off it’s almost interchangeable with 2000!
You can turn off all the eye candy in Vista, too and wind up with just about the same thing.
Bob
With all the power I got with the new station I can run all the eye candy without a problem, although I did find out that you can set all the interesting boarders and stuff with the system set to Aero then set it to Basic, it keeps most of the settings from the Aero interface, that way I have the best of both worlds. I think that’s how I actually did that, it’s been a coupla’ months.
Dave why do you keep insisting that MS "freezes" the market by making an anouncment which is 3 years out. It’s not like software devs the world over are going to say "well there’s no point developing for vista as it will be redundant in 2-3 years". Apple isn’t going to sit still neither will the many Linux Distros. Vista is still being developed and I’m still seeing updates and support for XP…..
Vista and OSX 10.5 are about on a par for pretty, although OSX has got reflections on it’s dock!!!!! WOW!!! They are both equally causing problems with Adobe Apps (check the mac Forums) and many others besides.
Xp was pretty crappy untill SP. Win95 had issues until Version B with the USB support. 2K was about the only system I never had problems with, infact at one stage i had my old Voodoo 1 card running as a secondary 2d card (not possible on any other system).
UAC really isn’t superfluous, it stops software from making system changes without authorisation the same way OSX’s verification process does. You can assign privileges to software (although not recommended) and I’d much rather know when software is trying to connect to the net than get a nasty surprise. XP users just havn’t been used to it previously which might explain the reaction to some extent.
As far as performance goes, there are issues but mostly because user experience was put above raw speed. Users rate a responsive interface higher than an extra second or two on a load. This showed up most clearly with playing media slowing down network traffic, this has now been fixed so there isn’t as much impact.
I cant wait to get a new PC so i can start playing with Vista, might even dual boot it with OSX (yep there are hacks to run OSX on a PC without too many issues), but I realistic enough to know that it wont be 100% reliable for some time.
BRETT
You can turn off all the eye candy in Vista, too and wind up with just about the same thing.
can you? i asked a few people and they said no.
Dave why do you keep insisting that MS "freezes" the market by making an anouncment which is 3 years out.
i’m not insisting anything. i’m stating my humble, considered and experienced opinion. it happened before.
It’s not like software devs the world over are going to say "well there’s no point developing for vista as it will be redundant in 2-3 years".
as a software dev, i can say: yes. that’s exactly what software devs are saying. 🙂
2K was about the only system I never had problems with,
nt4?
UAC really isn’t superfluous,
it is when you turn it off…
I’m still seeing updates and support for XP…..
there’s the tip off of the "me-ness" of vista. xp is vista’s biggest competitor and by all accounts it’s going to get better when sp3 comes out.
I cant wait to get a new PC so i can start playing with Vista
like i said, i might install ultimate when i reformat this box. that should be soon, within the next month or so.
yep there are hacks to run OSX on a PC
don’t get me going on my conspiracy theory on why steve jobs won’t sell osx to the intel massess! they would wipe up the market with microsloth! actually they could falling into the same trap that ibm fell into with os/2. if ibm had pounded the $#5#$@ outta the market with os/2 while ms diddled around with win 3.1 after promising 95 would be out (3 years later) no one would even be talking about microsoft today. ibm would rule the desktop. their marketing dept got royally outclassed by ms’.
Actually, 2k was great as an RC. Then they screwed it up when it went Gold.
Keith
Dave: "while ms diddled around with win 3.1 after promising 95 would be out (3 years later)", that wouldn’t have anything to do with the Apple lawsuit would it?
no. it had to do with a calculated marketing effort to freeze the market until windows 95 was ready.
can you? i asked a few people and they said no.
It’s just so easy to say something sucks when you don’t know how to use it. Just change the theme to Windows Classic.
Bob
It’s just so easy to say something sucks when you don’t know how to use it.
that’s not fair bob. i’m going on the features and the numbers comparing performance.
Just change the theme to Windows Classic.
that’s good to know.
Sorry, Dave.
I wasn’t referring to you. I referring to the masses. You know? The same ones that post "my Adobe is broken."
But I do strongly encourage you to check it out for yourself. Benchmarks just don’t compare to real world hands on use.
Bob
make sure you don’t skip the conclusion page of that article. hmm… where have i heard all that before? 🙂
"The good news is that, if history is anything to go by, the next version of Windows is set to be a belter. And if the rumoured timelines are correct, we could be seeing Windows 7 in 2009. "
The conclusion, as I read it, is that Vista doesn’t suck, and overall is a bit better than XP.
Bob
I never said it sucked, just that it’s not worth the upgrade price and history will designate it as the next windows me.
remember i said i LIKED windows me! 🙂
now i’m getting itchy to run it myself. 😛
now i’m getting itchy to run it myself. 😛
I knew I’d get to you sooner or later. <VBG>
I have this machine almost finished. The only thing I forgot to buy was an extra case fan for the front and I’ll pick one up locally today. I’m pretty busy the next couple of days but I’ll try to get it running over the weekend and report back.
Bob
I knew I’d get to you sooner or later. <VBG>
yea, well, i’m a masochist when it comes to technology! XD
yea, well, i’m a masochist when it comes to technology! XD
Who among us isn’t? 🙂
Bob
meant to mention before bob, thanks, that’s a great link and i’m still reading it (busy busy at work today!)
Guys
Im having problem with my CS2 in vista
After i install everything and open Photoshop It says i need Proper privileges like administrative priviliges, the thing is im already using the administrator account.
any ideas how to solve this?
Machine’s up and running. Anything that could have gone wrong, didn’t! <g>
I don’t want to jinx it but what a piece of cake. Vista64 installed easily and didn’t even require drivers for RAID(0) set up. It found every driver for the hardware except the video card and that was certainly simple enough to do.
Office 2007 and CS3 Master Collection installed without a hitch. Monitor calibrated easily with the EyeOne Display and the new 64 bit drivers worked just fine.
Printers all work and this thing screams. Photoshop boots up the first time in about 6 seconds and 3 seconds after that.
I still have some setting up to do but overall I’m quite pleased so far.
That’s all for now.
Bob
Robert: similar to my experience. I have Vista 32 because my scanner software for my Agfa T1200 will not work under Vista 64, other than that everything went as unexpected considering the slagging that Vista has been taking.
The only problem I have now is that my Intel BadAxe2 board went belly-up on me and I’m waiting for a replacement board. I finally realized what a big part of my life the computer is, I’m jonesing for a fix since Friday, should be Monday or Tuesday when my dealer checks in.
Scanner is the only issue. No 64 bit driver, but I didn’t toss the old machine so that’s no biggie. The scanner is about 8 years old anyway so I wasn’t going to build this around it. I thought I had drivers for it, but it turned out to be my mistake.
I bought the OEM version of Vista 64 which ships as 64 only. You don’t get both.
Bob
That’s why I bought Ultimate, you get both, got a good deal for $298 full version.
I got an OEM 64 bit at first, but realized that I would have to dual-boot because of the scanner.
The scanner is the only thing I have a problem with. I’d rather spend the money on a new scanner…different strokes, I guess but remember, I’m not a photographer so I don’t need a high end scanner.
Mine an Epson Perfection 1640. Not exactly going to cost a fortune to replace.
Bob
For me the scanner can be a ‘do or die’ perph. I’ve had to scan some really old slides for art catalogues and the Agfa still has the ‘salt’.
Keyboard is working.
‘Upper Management’ maintains that while this board is marketed as an ‘Extreme’ board they do not actually support anything but default settings. That I will have to replace all the components to their recommended list, clear the CMOS, do a recovery BIOS (avoiding the fact that the board was sent to me with a corrupted BIOS possibly) and then reformat and re-install the OS on a recommended HD.
I only assume if I did all this (and I have already tested all the components elsewhere and they work just fine) then they would find some other fault. (((((((@!!*$(@)(*$+)_*$@))))))))) 🙁 Well I guess with the nice snowfall outside I can take the board to the park and hope it makes a nice ski-board.
I only assume if I did all this
call them back: "Ok. Done. Still don’t work. Send a new one."
I’ll try that, but at this point, following their protocol, I am now stuck in a post loop, cannot satisfy the bios update, which they will check, so I’m #@$**!
In the meantime I’m gonna buy an Asus board. I have to work, I’ve already lost ‘Christmas’ business. Damn.
So it hasn’t changed, I phoned them again, followed another suggestion but it did not work either.
Lesson: "Intel warranties aren’t worth the paper their printed on"!
So I phoned Intel today to get this moving now that I have satisfied their requirements and the ‘tech’ guy talks about the first board and how this is my fault. Welllllllllll, I totally lost it (I know it doesn’t help but these ‘people’ can try anyone’s patience) started swearing a blue streak, but one thing did come out of this, you can throw a Motorola phone against a wall and it still looks and works like the second it left your hand.
Going for an Asus P5E or K, still trying to decide.
are you running with aero or without? is it a knock around machine or your production box?
Cute. <g>
But since this isn’t a dual boot machine there’s no way for me to do a comparison. I like the new UI and yes, I have all the eye candy turned on.
Yes, this is now my primary production machine. The only thing I have left is to upgrade Quickbooks to 2008…2006 doesn’t run on Vista…and I need a new scanner since my trusty old Epson doesn’t have Vista 64 drivers.
Again, I’m not promoting this for everyone, but I need to have PS, Illy, InDesign, Bridge and Acrobat all open at the same time and XP Pro just wasn’t cutting it with 3 gigs of RAM.
I figured if I was going to 64 bit I might just as well go all the way and go to Vista since there’s more hardware support.
In short, I’m lovin’ it.
Bob
have you considered running w/o aero to see if there’s any speed/productivity boost as compared to full on eye candy?
Dave,
This machine screams. Everything is fast.
Bob
I should be getting my Asus P5K Premium motherboard (it’s an 18th Anniversary ‘Black Pearl’ edition, oooooooo, I hope Jack Sparrow doesn’t swashbuckle it).
So I guess with the Intel board I’ll solder the debug nodes together and get into the engineer’s version of the BIOS and find out what is happening.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
What? What? What?
Bob
Finally junked the Intel boards (what a pain in the butt), got a replacement Asus P5K Premium and this thing flys. Been offline for two weeks sorting this out other than when I was occassionally stable.
Lost a lot of business, damn, but Merry Christmas and have a happy celebration for whatever other holiday you may be prone to. I’m going to my favourite restaurant and then go to bed early, I’m really tired.
but Merry Christmas and have a happy celebration for whatever other holiday you may be prone to.
same to you bart-man!
