PS CS4 Compatibility With Mac OS X Spaces

CC
Posted By
Chris_Cox
Nov 18, 2008
Views
1940
Replies
64
Status
Closed
Ok folks, you seem to be confusing something here.

Applications do not support Spaces – there is nothing for the application to do, and nothing they really can do to support Spaces. It is the job of Spaces to make applications think they are all working on a virtual desktop.

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Nov 18, 2008
Well, I don’t know whether the onus is on Apple or Adobe with regard to getting Spaces and PS to "work" properly together. I’m speaking strictly as a user who has noticed that PS does NOT work the same as other applications. All I know is that I can have windows from other applications open in different Spaces, and I would like that same behavior in PS CS4.

If you concede that PS does not work in the same manner as other apps with regard to Spaces, perhaps you can help the cause by putting a little pressure on Apple to get the issue resolved instead of proclaiming how "confused" your customers are about software engineering issues. I suspect Adobe has more clout with Apple than I as a lowly confused end-user does.

Thanks,

-Steve
CC
Chris_Cox
Nov 18, 2008
Photoshop works the same as most applications. But Spaces has been tuned for some of Apple’s applications.

We have filed many bugs with Apple about Spaces, and Apple has fixed some of them in OS updates. But we cannot force Apple to fix or do anything.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 18, 2008
I have no problem doing this with other applications.

If you are able to do this with other applications, each window would be its own process (or have special abilities because Apple made their own app to work uniquely with Spaces). Photoshop only runs as one process. Each window for an app has to have a unique ID for the virtual desktop app to identify and recall position.
Nov 18, 2008
Photoshop works the same as most applications.

Not most of the apps I own.

But Spaces has been tuned for some of Apple’s applications.

All of the non-Apple apps that I’ve tried so far (except for PS) seem to play well with Spaces.

We have filed many bugs with Apple about Spaces…

If that’s all you can do, then that’s all I can ask. I’m not interested in getting into a blame game or pissing match.

Thanks,

-Steve
SW
Scott_Weichert
Nov 18, 2008
How many third party apps have you tried?

Illustrator, Indesign, and Photoshop all operate the exact same way with Spaces – windows gather in the same space. I’d take Chris at his word.
NK
Neil_Keller
Nov 18, 2008
Steve,

If you know something that Chris doesn’t, or have observed a behavior that goes counter to Chris’ comments, can you please share it with us?

Thanks.

Neil
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 18, 2008
There is no dispute between Chris’ comments and Steve’s. Some apps play well with Spaces and some do not. Both Steve and Chris recognize this.

Virtual desktop technology was not invented with Spaces and every other implementation of virtual desktops always note that they might misbehave with some apps.
Nov 19, 2008
Okay, here’s more pontification fodder…

I fired up PS CS3, and it plays well with Spaces. PS CS4 does not. Therefore, something has changed in PS between versions which results in it not behaving the same way with Spaces. Mind you, I’m not saying Adobe has done anything "wrong" in the new version – just "different". Perhaps the new behavior is related to some of the performance improvements in CS4. I don’t know. All I know is that PS CS3 "works" with Spaces and PS CS4 does not on my machine. I’ve already described the behavior I’ve observed in CS4, so I won’t reiterate (unless the folks from Adobe would like some clarification or elaboration).

And if anyone else would like to corroborate my findings, that would be great. Again, I’m running on a Mac Pro Octo (dual processor, 8-core) under OS X 10.5.5.

-Steve
Nov 19, 2008
Perhaps the new behavior is related to some of the performance improvements in CS4. I don’t know.

Actually, my best guess is that it’s probably related to the new "tabbed window" and/or "floating window" functionality. Window behavior was obviously reworked with this feature and has likely impacted the way windows behave with Spaces.

-Steve
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 19, 2008
That is what I’d guess as well; it is en entirely new window management system in the new version.
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 4, 2008
last week, i installed upgrade from CS2 to CS4.
CS2 works fine with OS 10.5 and spaces. but in CS4 there is not one application, who will work with spaces. all other non-apple-apps will work with spaces too.
so i cant believe, that this is a apple-problem.
there are not only spaces-problems. for example: if i use the (in german version "Anwendungsrahmen") to collect documents in registers, the background of the document-areas looks like using a noise-filter.
at the moment, its very stressful to handle CS4 with spaces. in my workflow i user spaces very intensive. so i need a lot of more time und nerves with CS4.
so i hope, adobe will fix this problem before CS5. other non-apple-apps can also work with spaces. why not CS4?
R
Ram
Dec 4, 2008
Are you by any chance on a PowerPC (like a Mac G5)? If so, it’s a known issue that CS4 cannot support Spaces on non-Intel machines.

»Anwendungsrahmen« is the Application Frame in English.
Dec 4, 2008
Ramón, you’ve already mentioned that in this thread. Are you by chance on an Intel-based machine and Spaces IS working for you? If so, I’d sure like to know.

-Steve
B
Buko
Dec 4, 2008
No he is not
R
Ram
Dec 4, 2008
Steve,

What Buko says. I’m not going anywhere near Leopard or a Mac-Intel chip.

The warning about Spaces is on page 7 of the 9-page CS4 ReadMe file.

However, I was wrong in one respect: Leopard Spaces are not supported on any machine, Mac-Intel or PPC.

Here it is, by copy and paste:

Spaces (Macintosh only)

We do not officially support the Apple OS X Leopard “Spaces” feature. If you are experiencing problems when using Photoshop CS4 and Spaces, please contact Apple Support.
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 4, 2008
@Ramon:
this means:
if you would work with the actual mac os, you have to use a old creative suite. if you would work with the actual creative suite, you have to use a old mac os. am using a actual mac too 🙂 (mac pro intel)

so i have to downgrade to a older system, because adobe isnt able to do, what all other programmers can do? i dont believe this!

because i would use the actual os x and the actual creative suite, my question is another one. why can support all other NON-APPLE-applications spaces and why can CS4 not. this question is not answered in this thread.
CS4 is the most expensive application on my mac and shows the worst compatibility of all applications.
for me, CS4 is not a app, i use sometimes. i used it several hours every day.

its no argument for me to say: we would not support the actual version of the operating system we develop for.
JJ
John Joslin
Dec 4, 2008
Bernd, just for your information "aktuell" is better translated as "current" in English. I had the same problem in reverse when I went to Germany.
B
Buko
Dec 4, 2008
No you don’t have to downgrade CS4 works its just not all that compatible with spaces.
R
Ram
Dec 4, 2008
Bernard,

If CS4 ran in Panther (OS X 10.3.x), I would be running that OS. I need none of the features provided by later versions of the Mac OS at all.

As a matter of fact, I have Spotlight and Dashboard permanently disabled in Tiger. If I were forced to use Leopard, the first thing I would do is to find out how to disable Spaces permanently.

No, the "why" is not answered in this thread, you are correct. As fellow users, all we can do is describe things to you, not explain them.

Das haben wir auch im Astronomieunterricht gelernt, nämlich daß das Weltall durch die Wissenschaft nur beschrieben doch nicht erklärt werden kann. 😉
JJ
John Joslin
Dec 4, 2008
Spock could have explained it. 😉

As a side note there is a similar feature in Vista that is affected by this phenomenon.

I know – "who’s interested?"

Funnily enough it is interesting to follow the parallel OS paths (even if we are on 64 bit).
R
Ram
Dec 4, 2008
Yeah, but you can’t print in 16 bits like I can. 😛
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 4, 2008
am sorry, but:

use spotlight and i use spaces. and its no reason for me, to dispense of this features. so i have to accept, that everybody can write software, who works with spaces. adobe does not (since CS3). and there is no reason to explain how. have to learn, that CS4 is not ready for the current mac os and the only workaround is, to disable all the features, who help me, to work efficient. 🙁

comments link this:
"Das haben wir auch im Astronomieunterricht gelernt, nämlich daß das Weltall durch die Wissenschaft nur beschrieben doch nicht erklärt werden kann."
dont help to understand, why i have to accept, that CS4 has a bad windows-management as CS2.
R
Ram
Dec 4, 2008
No one is trying to get you to accept anything, Bernd.

I’m just telling you what the reality is so you don’t waste hours trying to pursue a dead end. That’s all.

Whether you accept it or not is not my business.
R
Ram
Dec 4, 2008
No one is trying to get you to accept anything, Bernd.

I’m just telling you what the reality is so you don’t waste hours trying to pursue a dead end. That’s all.

Whether you accept it or not is not my business. I am not Adobe.
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Dec 5, 2008
I agree actually CS3 dealt a lot better with the OS, spaces and the dock. CS4 seems to have lost the plot. Only explanation I can come up with, CS4 must be optimized for the next mac OS 10.6.
B
Buko
Dec 5, 2008
CS4 must be optimized for the next mac OS 10.6.

except its not released yet and I don’t believe they have invented a working time machine.
R
Ram
Dec 5, 2008
CS4 does have windows management issues not present in previous versions or in other applications.

For instance, the bug where it is possible for the image window to slide under the menu bar at the top, often through no fault of your own, so you have to hit the F key in order to retrieve it and reposition it. This one should get fixed.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Dec 5, 2008
… or hit Tab to hide the menu bars for a moment …
R
Ram
Dec 5, 2008
Correct.
MC
mario_coelho
Dec 13, 2008
Hi,

As a designer who uses Adobe’s software for many years, to me the bottom line to this discussion is simple:

a) CS has to be updated to work with Apple’s OS. It’s simply not reasonable to ask for the opposite situation. CS has worked with Spaces in the past, so this conversation should be about getting Adobe to do the right tweeks in order to have it working again.

b) One should not have to downgrade software or operating systems so that everything works ok. The objective of new software versions is not only about getting new Tools and Filters in Photoshop, it should also be about getting it to be more and more integrated with Leopard’s functionalities (and all the future updates for that matter).
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 13, 2008
thanks for this summary. its exactly what i want.
R
Ram
Dec 13, 2008
CS has worked with Spaces in the past

CS is not even supported by Adobe under Leopard. If it works, fine; if it doesn’t, too bad.
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Dec 13, 2008
Thats nonsense, CS3 worked (not completely flawlessy but worked) fine with Leopard. I used it on about 9 machines this year running Leopard with hardly an issue. Thats in practice.

In CS4 I’ve discovered that I have to turn spaces off altogether to avoid having to restart Photoshop. There is all kinds of strange behaviour, including individual documents not displaying (gray box), Some documents deciding to launch randomly in another space without title bar or editability. Its just buggy in a way that looks careless. In addition CS4 doesn’t accomodate the dock at all.

I think there’s a relationship issue between the Photoshop team and Apple at the moment. Hard to believe its not related to the huge Cocoa issue. I’ve never seen such obvious OS incompatibility issues allowed to pass before.
R
Ram
Dec 13, 2008
Hard to believe its not related to the huge Cocoa issue.

…as well as to Apple’s Aperture. Aperture stands to gain if Adobe loses market share.
CC
Chris_Cox
Dec 13, 2008
Spaces is an OS feature, applications cannot do anything about it, can’t write code for it, and shouldn’t even know that it is in use.

Problems with Spaces can only be fixed by Apple.
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 13, 2008
@ chris cox:
why can all other apps on my mac (include all non-apple-apps) use spaces correctly???
CC
Chris_Cox
Dec 13, 2008
You’ll have to ask Apple.

And on my machine, maybe 50% of apps work well with spaces. (Spaces even has some problems with some Apple apps)
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 13, 2008
until cs2, ALL apps on my macpro (os 10.5) work without any problems. my only cs3-app was a flash-update. since flash cs3, i have my FIRST experience with a app, that dont work with spaces. now i use cs4 (design premium) and have a lot off funny und time-consuming effects with spaces.
probably, the only way to work smart and efficient, is to install the old cs2-suite. cs2 works with spaces – however. maybe, adobe will find the difference between the spaces-handling in CS2 and CS4…
NK
Neil_Keller
Dec 13, 2008
Bernd,

maybe, adobe will find the difference between the spaces-handling in CS2 and CS4

As Chris says, it’s an Apple-only issue. Speak to Apple.

Neil
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Dec 14, 2008
"Spaces is an OS feature, applications cannot do anything about it, can’t write code for it, and shouldn’t even know that it is in use. "

– I don’t see how that follows Chris. In CS3, you could have different windows in different spaces. If you hide or show the dock in CS3, the panels move to accomodate it. CS4 behaves completely differently. Also in CS4 The TAB key doesn’t sort out missing panels and toolbar problems like it did in CS3.
CC
Chris_Cox
Dec 17, 2008
Mark – read what I said: it doesn’t follow, it just is. The application doesn’t know about Spaces. Spaces is supposed to do its thing without the application knowing anything about Spaces. Please, refer all Spaces problems to Apple so they can fix them.
CB
C_B2
Dec 27, 2008
Developers must make their applications work with the operating system. You can’t expect to create a buggy program and have Apple hack their operating system just because you, Adobe, decided to use a non standard windowing system. All other mac apps work with spaces and exposé and all those programs use normal windowing systems. Adobe thought it would be clever to make their programs have custom scrollbars, custom window resizers and an entirely different way to manage windows, and coincidentally Adobe’s programs are the ones that function incorrectly. To say Apple should get their business together is wrong.

How about I design a strange train and have the country modify all of its tracks so my train can fit on it? How about I make a narrow door and tell you to lose weight to go through it? How about playing golf with a baseball and being told to make the holes bigger to play? You get my analogy? Fix your programs. Obey the standards of the OS X operating system as defined by Apple. If you want to do your own thing develop for exclusively for Windows (which has no real standards) or make your own operating system. Adobe is to blame.
NK
Neil_Keller
Dec 28, 2008
C B2,

I hear your frustration. But please reread and understand what Chris said.

Neil
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 28, 2008
neil,

am very sorry, but i cant understand, that we have to accept, that software who is designed for OS X, doesnt support OS X. adobe can support OS X by 100%. CS2 is the positive proof. as long as CS4 doesnt support OS X like CS2, the CS4-update is a big step back and a bad investment. for me, it is a "lame excuse" to put the blame on apple.

bernd
NK
Neil_Keller
Dec 28, 2008
<sigh…>
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Dec 29, 2008
Just turn off spaces thats what I have to do, its not that bad. And yes CS2 and 3 were much better in this area for some odd reason
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 29, 2008
nice idea 🙂
turn spaces off and run photoshop, golive, flash, aperture, mail, safari, itunes, filemaker and parallels in "one space". really nice.
all my non-adobe-apps run fine with spaces. for some odd reason or not: they do! so i am still waiting, until adobe discovers, how to make cs4 os-x-compatible.
NK
Neil_Keller
Dec 29, 2008
Bernd,

so i am still waiting, until adobe discovers, how to make cs4 os-x-compatible.

Please — for the gazillionth time, READ and UNDERSTAND Chris Cox’s brief post on how spaces work. Then take this issue to Apple!

Thanks!

Neil
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Dec 29, 2008
neil,

thanks for your patient references to chris cox´s posting.

but it looks like a upside-down world: on one side there are dozens of apps who can work with spaces. and on the other side there are about 14 apps from adobe, who cant work with spaces. the correct explanation ist: the adobe-apps work correct…

this doesnt explain, why ALL other apps work perfect with spaces. are the adobe-apps the only one, who work correct? while all non-adobe-apps work with spaces, i cant understand why the problem is by apple.
CB
C_B2
Dec 29, 2008
just wanted to clarify that i do not place the blame on anyone here specifically. the photoshop programming and developing team are not to blame. it is the team who created this windowing system for the cs4 apps who is at fault. i am not an expert, but clearly there are differences between cs4 apps and any other program out there. cs4 apps have -thick titlebars, with the apps icon in it
-the inspector windows are borderless and float on top of the main window, giving the illusion that they are part of one window
-the scrollbars are custom made which impair its ability to work properly with the mighty mouse these are among many other problems which this custom adobe ui has created.

discussing this here won’t make much of a difference, adobe should acknowledge this is an issue. i assume that it will not be fixed in cs4, because it wasn’t in cs3. this issue can only be solved by starting with a brand new ui that works natively and uses os x scrollbars, buttons and windows and has a native preferences window, about box, and doesn’t show a splash screen when loading and wouldn’t reassign the ‘hide’ shortcut key to something other than "cmd+h" (illustrator).
apple users like macs because of their consistency. if apple adds a feature in the os, all programs get this new ability. programs that use their own custom ui always lag behind because system wide changes can’t be applied to them due to incompatibilities and they are also more likely to break with 10.x updates.

if adobe used apple’s proper, cocoa ui, we would be able to do things like drag tools in the toolbar to their desired place instead of having to go into another menu and use archaic >>add>> and <<remove<< dialogs. it would be best if adobe had a team that specializes in cocoa, so they can develop consistent apps for os x.

again, no disrespect to the developers of photoshop, but i am just recommending that cs5 have native ui’s for their respective OS, so these problems never arise. it would be nice if apple makes an exception and hacks spaces and exposé to recognize adobe’s custom ui, but i think it’s very unlikely they will do this because it would be encouraging inconsistency.
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Dec 30, 2008
They are working on moving the entire application to Cocoa right now. Minus, I suspect, certain invaluable filter functionality. So the mac community may in practice be on CS3 and 4 for a while until all this is ironed out.
CC
Chris_Cox
Jan 7, 2009
Bernd – from your perspective, it might seem that way. But from the OS and application perspective, the Spaces problems are all implementation bugs on Apple’s side. Not all "other" apps work correctly with Spaces, nor do all non-Adobe applications work correctly with Spaces.
CC
Chris_Cox
Jan 7, 2009
None of this has anything to do with Cocoa, or any other magic pixie dust.

Please learn what you are talking about before posting your rants.
BS
Bernd_Scheurer
Jan 7, 2009
chris,

how can i see this other problems? in which way will they appear? i really want to understand this…

please explain me why,
– all my other apps start only in their assigned spaces? – all my other apps open documents only in their assigned spaces? – there are no window- or other display-problems with all my other apps?

where are the problems with spaces and non-adobe apps? i cant see them. every app opens in the right space. every app show his windows correct. or is my mac the only one, who do so?
CC
Chris_Cox
Jan 7, 2009
Bernd – Either you are over-generalizing, or you really don’t use many applications. Apple has a long list of apps that have different problems with Spaces.

Here’s the summary: Spaces has bugs, Spaces does not work with all applications, and Apple is fixing those bugs. Spaces is an Apple feature, that runs outside the application and has no direct interaction with the application. Spaces problems are up to Apple to fix.
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Jan 7, 2009
I for one never said it did have anything to do with Cocoa.
J
JulP
Jan 8, 2009
Hi all,

I just received my CS4. Great job (except the new icons.. :P) I saw that spaces problem too.
THE ONLY solution, waiting updates (hope…):
Go on the desired space and open your document.

Quite boring btw…

NB: I had never seen this kind of problem with spaces before..
P
pix
Jan 13, 2009
I’m having this issue too and is very annoying. Photoshop and Lightroom won’t work with Spaces, though Bridge does.

I think it is an Apple issue, and I think I will switch back to Windows, when 7 is out. Too many issues with Leopard.
NK
Neil_Keller
Jan 13, 2009
pix,

I think it is an Apple issue, and I think I will switch back to Windows, when 7 is out. Too many issues with Leopard.

??? What significant issues are you having with Leopard?

I’m not trying to sell you on any specific platform. But, do you think that a brand new OS, Windows 7 is gonna be issue-free?

Neil
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Jan 13, 2009
Yes, it can’t be so bad that you want to switch to Windows – really
J
JulP
Jan 13, 2009
NEVER!
I’m still thinking it is an CS4 problem, CS3 used to work perfectly.. After about a week, I found latency issues, and refresh "problems" (Indesign, Illustrator and Photoshop with 50% RAM, 4go, running at the same time)..
NK
Neil_Keller
Jan 13, 2009
JulP,

You’ve told us nothing about your specific system setup, or specifics about some latency and refresh problems which appear to be off-topic in this discussion. If your question isn’t about Spaces (see post #39 for info on that), then please start a new topic with full details.

Thanks.

Neil
AF
Ade_Fowler
Jan 16, 2009
I’m currently running Leopard and CS3 on a dual G5 (PPC) with very few problems. I use Spaces all the time and have grown to love the feature. Having read this thread my planned upgrade to CS4 can wait.
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Jan 16, 2009
Yes Ade, something has definately changed – probably to do with the new ‘Application Frame’. There’s also a smaller issue in CS4 – it doesn’t automatically move aside to accomodate the panels. You have to manually hide it (command/option/D)

Its most probably because Apple hasn’t updated Spaces yet to accomodate certain window ‘types’ as Chris Cox has said. Hopefully this change will happen with Snow Leopard. I just turn them off.

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