CS4 :: Compelling Reasons to Upgrade (or Not)

L
Posted By
LRK
Oct 23, 2008
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My work consists of design for web and print; photo processing, retouching, enhancements, and entering into the realm of doing some Painter work.

I am looking for compelling practical reasons why I should want to upgrade… or not. If I upgrade I will be upgrading the entire Design Suite. Photoshop will probably be the determining factor on whether to upgrade to CS4 this time around or not. I use Lightroom 2 for most of my processing so Photoshop is primarily used for specialized tasks beyond what can be done in Lightroom.

I am running CS3 on a G5 Quad, OS 10.4.11, 7GB RAM, CNVIDIA GeForce 7800GT, 256MB total VRAM.

Thank you for any objective input.

Linda

How to Master Sharpening in Photoshop

Give your photos a professional finish with sharpening in Photoshop. Learn to enhance details, create contrast, and prepare your images for print, web, and social media.

AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 23, 2008
If there was ever a MUST upgrade Linda, it is this one.

Having tasted CS4 Design Premium Suite, I never want to have to use the CS3 Suite again.
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
Too vague Ann. She needs "reasons". 🙂 Being she uses LR…
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 23, 2008
I would need to write a book on the subject!
There are major performance improvements in all of the applications.

But in one word: "BRIDGE"!

Linda uses most of the Suite — not just Lightroom.
Also, Bridge CS4 hosted ACR can now work in conjunction with Lightroom.
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
But in one word: "BRIDGE"!

I totally agree with you on Bridge, but I predict her argument is that she does not use Bridge nearly as much as LR.

Since we are talking the whole suite, one of my favorite apps to be changed is Illustrator. I just love what has happened there not to mention it is much faster.

I am glad you are saying performance is better since you both have a G5. I would expect performance increases on a Mac Pro which is what I use.

I think Linda already has the graphics card she needs too?
L
LRK
Oct 23, 2008
Hi Ann & Cindy,

Thank you for responding so far. I can always count on you. 🙂

I think Linda already has the graphics card she needs too?

Yes. Ann & I had a conversation where we determined that I do.

I totally agree with you on Bridge, but I predict her argument is that she does not use Bridge nearly as much as LR.

This is true. I seldom use Bridge unless I am simply sorting images and moving them to folders.

I am glad you are saying performance is better since you both have a G5.

Are you saying across the board performance is better, or in specific areas? Could you elaborate?

Since we are talking the whole suite, one of my favorite apps to be changed is Illustrator. I just love what has happened there not to mention it is much faster.

This is good to know. I gave up on Illustrator CS3 and went back to CS2. It actually cost me a client due to bloated and bad behavior, causing me to spend way too much time, much of which caused me to have to lose much of my profit… not to mention possibly the client (previously faithful) who has not called me since.
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
I gave up on Illustrator CS3 and went back to CS2.

Why don’t you run demos of the various apps when they come out? I think you will like all of them.

I don’t know if you are interested in Fireworks but it now comes with the suite. Me, I like Illi so I use it for anything vector. I didn’t like Illustrator CS3 either. It was too slow and unresponsive. It crashed.
B
barkerjohn
Oct 23, 2008
Sorry if this feels like I am leading the thread off subject. Does anyone know what are the compatibility issues, both backward and forward between CS thro to CS4.
I find this is the major issue when considering an upgrade. i.e would someone be able to transfer files back and forth between clients, customers, freelancers etc
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
Whenever you have a newer version of any of the programs you may need to save back when sending a file to someone with an earlier version. I believe this is handled in Photoshop with a preference but anytime I have sent a file using Illustrator to someone who has an earlier version I have to save back.
L
LRK
Oct 23, 2008
I don’t know if you are interested in Fireworks but it now comes with the suite. Me, I like Illi so I use it for anything vector. I didn’t like Illustrator CS3 either. It was too slow and unresponsive. It crashed.

Since I owned and updated the Macromedia Suite, I still have Fireworks 8. I only use it when I have to though. I too prefer Illustrator.

One thing that bothers me about the Premium upgrade is that it comes with everything for print and web design, with exception to Contribute. That to me is kind of a dumb oversight.

John, You are right on track with this topic. Please feel free to enter in as you wish. Normally the Adobe software is backward compatible. For programs such as InDesign and Illustrator you might have to save the file for backward compatibility, but generally with Photoshop you can just open the file in either version. If a feature is not backward compatible, you usually get a warning and explanation of how the document will open.
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Buko
Oct 23, 2008
the biggest backward compatibility issue is InDesign You need to have all versions if you plan on working with others with older versions.
B
Buko
Oct 23, 2008
Linda this is definitely a must have
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
You know Linda, I never really quite took to Lightroom. I liked some of the galleries but other than that I much preferred Bridge. Now that Bridge offers the same galleries (which I have yet to install all the ones from LR) there is just no contest for me. You might give Bridge/ACR a second look.
L
LRK
Oct 23, 2008
Linda this is definitely a must have

Buko, Can you give me more good reasons? I really don’t want to spend the money unless it will make enough of a difference. 🙂
L
LRK
Oct 23, 2008
You know Linda, I never really quite took to Lightroom. I liked some of the galleries but other than that I much preferred Bridge. Now that Bridge offers the same galleries (which I have yet to install all the ones from LR) there is just no contest for me. You might give Bridge/ACR a second look.

I guess it’s what you get used to. Now that I’m used to the workflow in LR, it really speeds things up for me. I will probably download a demo at some point, but anything and everything that takes too much time is a problem for me these days.
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
Tabs…Ever has a mess of multiple pictures all over Photoshop? Now there is tabs. What a relief. You can still move it to a new window if you like.

This suite is all about work flow. And I know that means something to you.
B
Buko
Oct 23, 2008
Photoshop and ID are lightyears ahead of CS3 the rest is gravy.
L
LRK
Oct 23, 2008
Tabs…Ever has a mess of multiple pictures all over Photoshop? Now there is tabs. What a relief. You can still move it to a new window if you like.

Cindy, You mean you can tab from one image (or layer) to another, or do you mean greater flexibility with text formatting?

Photoshop and ID are lightyears ahead of CS3 the rest is gravy.

Buko, InDesign is lightyears ahead? I cannot imagine how it could get much better. Guess I should check out a tutorial at some point to see what it does. If it includes imposition, that might be of interest.
B
Buko
Oct 23, 2008
No imosition
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
Cindy, You mean you can tab from one image

If you open multiple images you can stack them in tabs.

Check out Whats New in InDesign:
< http://help.adobe.com/en_US/InDesign/6.0/WSFE4C4DDD-967A-4cf 0-845F-AB2B86FCC809a.html>
AW
Allen_Wicks
Oct 23, 2008
am looking for compelling practical reasons why I should want to upgrade… or not.

Money? Serious recession? More and more work being handled by Aperture (or in your case LR)? I routinely upgrade multiple copies of the Premium Design Suite when a new version comes out, but right now such an expenditure is inappropriate for financial reasons.

Folks saying "Bridge" as a reason obviously work among the suite apps a lot, and that makes sense. However my CS work is not so constant that workflow improvements CS4 over CS3 are likely to pay significant time savings. Even so, I would upgrade if money was not so tight – and getting tighter.

Thank the folks who claimed free markets would self-regulate, money to the top would trickle down…
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
Linda, check out this movie: <http://tv.adobe.com/#vi+f1584v1019>

Allen, I hear you on the recession. I justified buying the suite because I need the tax deductions. 🙂
AW
Allen_Wicks
Oct 23, 2008
Don’t ya know, Cindy, McCain/Obama are going to give us all such tax deductions there will be no taxes? The trillion-dollar+ deficit the Bush Republicans leave for the next administration will magically pay itself off via tax reductions…
C
Cindy
Oct 23, 2008
I could go on and on about these things Allen but I think I don’t want to start something here.
WG
Welles_Goodrich
Oct 23, 2008
From a visual standpoint one of the most compelling aspects of PS CS4 for me was the leveraging of the CPU to render images with proper anti-aliasing at any resolution. What that means to my work is that I can use my scroll wheel to zoom in and out at will and the image always renders properly no matter where my scroll ends up. 62.73% looks just as smooth as any other percentage. You would only get with 100%, 50%, 25%, 12.5% etc. in earlier versions of Photoshop. Admittedly you need a hefty video card. If you are using a G5, Ann knows all about the ins and outs of the cards needed for those.
B
Buko
Oct 23, 2008
if you need to copy between images just pull the tab off and now you have two windows to drag between when your done put the image back
WG
Welles_Goodrich
Oct 23, 2008
Thanks Buko, I know that. I’d just like to be able to drop a layer on a tab. I’ve added that suggestion to the Feature Request area.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 23, 2008
I agree Welles. That would be a very welcome enhancement.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 23, 2008
Gee you guys haven’t even looked at PS CS4 compelling reasons and you can’t think of one, my word.

The clone brush has a preview of the actual region you are cloning. select you source now you have loaded the image of the at source to the size of your brush and as well as the feather move the brush to the location you want to use that source to clone over. Say you are matching a pattern of bricks or fabric texture you see the match, now start cloning just probably save yourself five minutes of trial and error do that ten time and you saved yourself an hour. Knock out ten retouched images in a half hour as opposed to three days.

Is that compelling enough. Dynamically drag the brush to resize it smaller or larger depending on which way you drag you have to hold the option control keys while dragging.

No need to go to the brush panel. You can change its hardness this way as well.

You get a 3D model from a client and they want you to map a design of a label you did to the the 3D model for and animated video for their website. Bring the 3D object into a 3d Layer in Photoshop CS4 place the label art on a normal 2D PS layer above it. Merge down.

Voilá. Mapped!

Put it on the timeline and create your animation of the rotating bottle and export it for you Flash clip or use it as is.

Use the time line to make animations with key frames instead of frame by frame and get much smoother and motion and you can even convert that to frame by frame.

You can import video and place it on the time line as well.

The application frame makes life very much more easy, you can have four or five or more documents open and just select the tab which has the tile of the document visible and it will come to the front you can drag a selection from one tab to another and it brings that document to the front with you selection ready to be drop in place.

Bridge of course you can select a number of images and apply the metadata to all of them at once like copyright notice and how to get in touch with you and restrictions etc. all from the bridge, you can do this in Lightroom but id you are not running light room why go through the trouble.

Preview your AI files in the Bridge, know what colors are used in a file and fonts etc.

The layer adjustments can be access by a panel I never use the menu to access them, I only use the panel.

Ann and Buko and Ramón have convinced Adobe not have Twain included it is optional and you have to add it and with Lightroom it is probably better for those who scan their old film files to scan them to a folder and then open them in Lightroom. I think Light room is a better designed interface then ACR. And offers more options.

And now for the big one the rotate canvas tool. So you don’t break you wrist and neck when trying to retouch a part of an image that is upside down. when trying. Just rotate the image hit escape and you are back to normal.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 23, 2008
I did say that I would need to write a book on the subject ….

Actually, I cannot think of a single reason for anyone NOT to upgrade to the CS4 Suite — except or a current shortage of cash.
L
LRK
Oct 24, 2008
No imosition

Bummer on no imposition in ID. I’ll continue to use IDCS2 for jobs that need it, so I can still use my Imposition Plug-in.

Cindy, Thank you for explaining Tabs better. This does sound handy. Thanks also for the links. The one link explaining the new features is helpful. Still not sure I feel compelled though. 🙂

From a visual standpoint one of the most compelling aspects of PS CS4 for me was the leveraging of the CPU to render images with proper anti-aliasing at any resolution.

Welles, This is great. Ann mentioned it as well on the phone recently.

The clone brush has a preview of the actual region you are cloning. select you source now you have loaded the image of the at source to the size of your brush and as well as the feather move the brush to the location you want to use that source to clone over. Say you are matching a pattern of bricks or fabric texture you see the match, now start cloning just probably save yourself five minutes of trial and error do that ten time and you saved yourself an hour. Knock out ten retouched images in a half hour as opposed to three days.

This so far is getting closer to compelling.

Is that compelling enough. Dynamically drag the brush to resize it smaller or larger depending on which way you drag you have to hold the option control keys while dragging.

I’m used to using the right and left brackets to enlarge or reduce brush sizes.

No need to go to the brush panel. You can change its hardness this way as well.

Control-Clicking seems to work well enough in this case.

You get a 3D model from a client and they want you to map a design of a label you did to the the 3D model for and animated video for their website. Bring the 3D object into a 3d Layer in Photoshop CS4 place the label art on a normal 2D PS layer above it. Merge down.

Voilá. Mapped!

So far I don’t do much 3D mapping, although this does sound like a nice feature.

Put it on the timeline and create your animation of the rotating bottle and export it for you Flash clip or use it as is.

Use the time line to make animations with key frames instead of frame by frame and get much smoother and motion and you can even convert that to frame by frame.

You can import video and place it on the time line as well.

Cool for those who do video

The application frame makes life very much more easy, you can have four or five or more documents open and just select the tab which has the tile of the document visible and it will come to the front you can drag a selection from one tab to another and it brings that document to the front with you selection ready to be drop in place.

This must be what Cindy was talking about. It also comes closer to compelling.

Bridge of course you can select a number of images and apply the metadata to all of them at once like copyright notice and how to get in touch with you and restrictions etc. all from the bridge, you can do this in Lightroom but id you are not running light room why go through the trouble.

Preview your AI files in the Bridge, know what colors are used in a file and fonts etc.

The layer adjustments can be access by a panel I never use the menu to access them, I only use the panel.

Not sure how this is that different from the way it’s been with palettes.

Ann and Buko and Ramón have convinced Adobe not have Twain included it is optional and you have to add it and with Lightroom it is probably better for those who scan their old film files to scan them to a folder and then open them in Lightroom. I think Light room is a better designed interface then ACR. And offers more options.

I would still need Twain as I have one client that requires I scan business cards, etc. for ads. But you say you can still install it, so that’s good.

And now for the big one the rotate canvas tool. So you don’t break you wrist and neck when trying to retouch a part of an image that is upside down. when trying. Just rotate the image hit escape and you are back to normal.

Cool

You all are doing a great job on this. It could be compelling enough if I were to use half the new features. I do use Flash, and from time to time I render video in Flash, so if Photoshop would make it possible to customize the frames, that might come in handy.
C
Cindy
Oct 24, 2008
I don’t so sales. 🙂
L
LRK
Oct 24, 2008
I don’t so sales.

Me either. Can you tell? 🙂
B
Buko
Oct 24, 2008
CS3 and 4 have simple imposition with Print booklet.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 24, 2008
Yu did not rad about the clone tool and remember you had n use for a camera at one time either and you are already talking about doing video and when it becomes a money making proposition that will be a different thing but learning while yur working is a very anxiety producing experience best to do projects for yourself first to get your feet wet.

The clone tool preview is more then worth the upgrade and saves hours of work.

Also there is a difference between using the brackets and dragging to resize as you as you also see a preview of the brush and the feather as you drag to resize and adjust the hardness. Not so with the brackets.

Also having a panel fir the adjustment layers is much better than you might think and saves a lot of time.

Illustrator has some great features as well like effects,that you can turn on and off at will in the appearance panel in Photoshop unfortunately the effects have to be turned on and off from a dialog.

However you might be right there may not be a compelling reason for you personally to upgrade
JJ
John Joslin
Oct 24, 2008
For my style, the brush resize without all that tapping on [ and ] is great.

…. and I can’t wait for "The Configurator"!
L
LRK
Oct 24, 2008
u did not rad about the clone tool and remember you had n use for a camera at one time either and you are already talking about doing video and when it becomes a money making proposition that will be a different thing but learning while yur working is a very anxiety producing experience best to do projects for yourself first to get your feet wet.

Actually I did read about the clone tool, but must have forgotten to include it in my last response. Being able to see the preview as you clone does sound handy. And you are probably right about video as well.
S
SuperMacGuy
Oct 24, 2008
@Ann Shelbourne:
No, if ever there was a version to upgrade to, it was CS3, because it was Universal/Intel native. Not having that keeps you locked into PPC on CS2. CS4 does not have such a compelling hardware tie in, at least from a Mac-purchasing perspective.

Also, are you employed by Adobe? Your quote "Actually, I cannot think of a single reason for anyone NOT to upgrade to the CS4 Suite — except or a current shortage of cash." is interesting. Given economic concerns, cash is a very valid reason. But at my office, there is no **very** compelling reason to upgrade, certainly not as much as to CS3. We can continue our core business with CS3 for quite some time. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I think a more realistic, pragmatic answer, would help the OP and everyone.
WG
Welles_Goodrich
Oct 24, 2008
Hi SuperMacGuy,

I understand your point and agree that CS3 was very important for those of us with Intel Macs (I purchased a Mac Pro within three weeks or their availability). If you just focus on Mac hardware/software leverage rather than the Photoshop feature set itself, CS4 is pretty darn compelling. I was built to work with Leopard so none of the problems with CS3/Leopard remain, it seems. Then it is built to leverage the GPU to allow for the best display feature set Photoshop has ever offered. To me that was enough of an advance to be considered a necessary upgrade.

Prior to considering those items I was prepared to pass on this upgrade because of the lack of 64 bit support for Mac. After using the new PS somewhat I’m more impressed than I imagined and feel it is one of the best upgrades I’ve ever gotten from Adobe.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 24, 2008
SuperMacGuy:

Have you had any actual experience of using the CS4 Suite?

I have — and my comments are based on real life experience and not hearsay.

You may think that you are perfectly content to stay with CS3 but my guess is that you will very quickly change your tune once you get your hands on CS4.

Ignorance is bliss — and, in your case, cheaper. But frankly you are missing out ….
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 24, 2008

[Note: Ann does not work for Adobe, but she was a beta tester.]

Neil
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 24, 2008

[Note to SuperMacGuy: Ann does not work for Adobe, but she was a beta tester.]

Neil
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 24, 2008
Neil:

I believe that Beta testers are supposed to neither confirm nor deny that they are or are not Beta testers!

8/
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 24, 2008
SuperMacGuy, Ann has an apparently balanced view of CS4. She does not like everything about it.

<http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?128@@.59b54ded>

🙂
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 24, 2008
Ann,

It’s after the fact, and you’ve told us you were using the product before its official release. But no need to either confirm or deny you were a beta tester. <g>

Neil
B
Buko
Oct 24, 2008
Neil she could be a time traveler.
AW
Allen_Wicks
Oct 24, 2008
That explains a lot…

🙂
C
Cindy
Oct 24, 2008
That explains a lot…

It explains nothing….

🙂
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 24, 2008
I realize what I said can be read two ways.

What I meant is that upon its official release, Ann had told us about how she had been working with CS4 for some time and she then provided some good personal feedback for us.

Neil
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 24, 2008
…my comments are based on real life experience and not hearsay.

There is a big difference in being concerned with what might be the outcome of a projected idea (as it was being portrayed by John Nack in his Blog last May) and seeing how the idea translated into reality.

The CS3 Suite had a lot of problems when it was first issued and back in May I was particularly anxious to know that the Photoshop team were going to be fixing the horrible GUI and other shortcomings of CS3 (they have!) before launching into wild schemes which might have lead to unstable performance and pointless bloat (they didn’t!).

So there is no contradiction and my comments in this thread are indeed based on real life experience of the shipped version of the CS4 Design Premium Suite and not hearsay.

On another point: I am still waiting for Jim Oblak (alias "Jordan") to post links to actual examples of his creative talent and expertise in the use of Photoshop so that we can all benefit and be inspired by his work.

[I am assuming that such examples actually exist?]
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 24, 2008
Ann,

Re: your last paragraph…there’s no need to push that agenda. Thanks.

Neil
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 24, 2008
Neil, you have edit rights, right? Why leave her junk there?

I’d like to be inspired by Ann’s work too. Many of us are still waiting to feel more than underwhelmed.

It is a miracle that Ann obtained a beta legally from Adobe after comments from her like this… <http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?14@@.59b54ded/1>

How Adobe could have been so stupid and short-sighted as to let this bunch of immature clowns loose on a program

So no, Ann does not work for Adobe. Ann is an equal opportunity insulter.

She doesn’t ask Neil to post examples of his creative talent. Go figure.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 24, 2008
It seemed a perfectly reasonable request Neil as I am sure that his work must be awesome.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 24, 2008
Ann, if you really know who I am then you would realize that posting such samples of my work on this forum would be obscene in some legal jurisdictions.
JM
J_Maloney
Oct 24, 2008
Redact the nipples Jim; show us the porn!
GB
g_ballard
Oct 24, 2008
if you really know who I am…in some legal jurisdictions.

Poppy, is that you?
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 24, 2008
Beta Tester Schmeta Tester who cares the thing is this version is a time saver and extra quality shows in the final results.The tools are great and it offers the user an opportunity of expanding their needs.

if you don’t believe it wait for the trial versions. You will be very pleased!
L
Lundberg02
Oct 24, 2008
It’s really amusing to see a person who can’t stop himself make damaging admissions. So now we know at last
R
Ram
Oct 25, 2008
…Beta testers are supposed to neither confirm nor deny that they are or are not Beta testers!

With one exception: when you were publicly and individually encouraged and invited to become a beta tester on a public Adobe forum, as was my case with CS3. In that situation, I would not be revealing anything that was not public knowledge. (After a public spat with John Nack and another luminary on this forum I was promptly kicked off the pre-release program anyway.:D)

As for CS4, I can publicly deny that I was ever a beta tester, since I wasn’t and, therefore, was not under any NDA.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 25, 2008
Why is this NDA thing always being discussed here? I don’t get the point.

I am wondering say a user here on the forum was a beta tester, what would be the purpose of disclosing this information, how would that benefit anyone.

Would it make the person any more Photoshop savvy, I would not think so or am I wrong and being a beta tester does set you aside from other users? I would think not as there must be millions of users that technically advance that simply do not have the time to test software and they maybe far more knowledgeable then people who have the time to test software.

It seems to me that it should have no impact the product.
L
LRK
Oct 25, 2008
Buko,

About ID Imposition, I think being able to print to impose is different from actually being able to impose the document itself, then make a press ready PDF with it. Correct me if I’m wrong. Thanks!

Linda
B
Buko
Oct 25, 2008
Print to PDFyou will get an imposed PDF.

but why would you want to? imposition is the printers job.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 25, 2008
but why would you want to? imposition is the printers job.

So then you consider putting a document together as reader spreads, printer spreads or single pages – the job of the printer?

All the lines are blurred now.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 25, 2008
If the multi-page job is to be printed on a Press, the printers need you to send them digital files in "Readers’ Spreads". They will do the final imposition to suit their printing procedures.

[If anyone is still doing Paste-up Mechanicals(?!), they would need to do the impositioning.]

The only time we need to imposition documents, is for inkjet printing and InDesign does offer Print Booklet imposition which will probably cover your needs; or you can use a Script for a more complex job.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 25, 2008
Please send all your documents in single page reader spreads. People have no clue as to set up documents for the bevy of conditions that have to be considered for print. Sending printer spreads to a printer is a bad idea. You are not helping them and NOT saving you money.
B
Buko
Oct 25, 2008
Sending printer spreads to a printer is a bad idea. You are not helping them and NOT saving you money.

Well that was my point. I always send the printer single page PDFs in one pdf.
L
LRK
Oct 25, 2008
Print to PDFyou will get an imposed PDF. but why would you want to? imposition is the printers job.

Thanks. The printers I deal with (that take PDF) like for me to impose my PDFs before sending them. Maybe I’ll try the Print to PDF with Imposition next month using CS3. I seem to remember I tried it when CS3 first came out and then went back to CS2. Can’t remember why though.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 25, 2008
They are not very professional printers are they that they would not have imposition software.

And I doubt that many people out side the printing industry know the difference between form wise or sheet wise or the difference between work and turn and work and tumble.

If your printers ask for imposition then they are a group of the laziest SOBs on earth.

And even in the old days we seldom did the paste ups in imposition to easy to make a mistake and the printer many times did not know until they got the paper in stock if it was work and turn or work and tumble because of the grain of the paper and the coverage.

Too expensive to run a $25,000 job to find out you have ghosting in the high ink coverage areas.

Fortunately it is much better now and a lot has been learned of these problems.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 25, 2008
And even in the old days we seldom did the paste ups in imposition to easy to make a mistake and the printer many times did not know until they got the paper in stock if it was work and turn or work and tumble because of the grain of the paper and the coverage. >

I ALWAYS did — because I worked extremely closely with my Printers’ senior technicians (and not just their Sales Reps.!); specified the paper stock on which the job would be run; and worked with the imposition format that the printers provided.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 25, 2008
Even in the old days they did not want you to do so and one always spec the paper.

I would never do imposition since the printer would probably have not followed it anyway.

I have worked for many printers in their in house art departments for their own designers and have prepared thousands of paste ups over the years and I can actually only recall one I was ever asked to do a job imposition for the press and that was because they had to strip the process of the images first to a prescribed format and they were going to replace the text in Spanish and i think Portuguese as well.

Otherwise it normally did not make sense to do the imposition unless it was a very lazy printer. And I for one would certainly not deal with them.

Sure this was not one of those things that you yourself insisted on?
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Wade:

This is another example of your insufferable arrogance — have you considered that there is the faint possibility that these printers wouldn’t have wanted to deal with YOU?!!

That was the way they preferred that the work should be done so that what they recieved was truly "Camera-Ready".

Nothing to do with "laziness" on their part —just highly professional high-end printers doing top quality work including spot colors, pattern varnishes, die-cutting foil-stamping and embossing as required.

We produced numerous pieces using this company and were delighted with their work — as were our clients.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
This is another example of your insufferable arrogance

Talk about arrogance. Sheesh.

Ann, one does not send Reader’s Spreads to a printer. How does anyone who actually works in design make a mistake like your previous post?

Learn the business before you start talking down to others.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
We were talking about Camera-Ready Paste-up Mechanicals — something with which you probably never had any experience so your input on this subject is entirely unwarranted and wholly superfluous.

Ann, one does not send Reader’s Spreads to a printer.

Readers’ Spreads are EXACTLY what one does send to a printer these days — now that we are dealing with DIGITAL files.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
We, as in the folks that actually send files to printers and have already corrected you in this thread, use single page PDF files, not spreads of any kind.
L
LRK
Oct 26, 2008
Ann,

Thanks for posting. I’m glad I’m not the only one who has reason to impose, regardless of the above mentioned insults made on the printer. Sigh…

I don’t remember a single time when I’ve sent a spread to print that the printer did not request for me to impose it. This pertains local, out of state, and even a Canadian printer I’ve done business with. My clients generally hire the printers, so perhaps budget is part of the reason, or perhaps I just assume it’s expected of me to impose.

I can’t help but think there are many would like this feature to be included in InDesign.
SW
Scott_Weichert
Oct 26, 2008
Smaller, mom and pop, printers want printer spreads because they aren’t really comfortable with PDFs and they have no Preps to help them. And they want YOu to be responsible because they just aren’t that confident in their digital prepress skills.

Larger, web press, printers want single reader spreads because they know and want to control the set up for their RIPs.

I do both regularly. I do feel it’s best to leave it to the printer. I’m not pleased when I’m asked for printer spreads. It does show a lack or technical skill on the part of a printer. But, depending on budgets, sometimes you have to deal with those that don’t like imposing.

I actually keep a copy of IDCS2 installed with the InBooklet plug in installed to allow me to impose IDCS2 files easily without printing to PDFS. I do strongly wish Adobe would add a standard imposition package to ID similar to InBooklet. I don’t want to impose and print to a PDF… I want to just impose at times.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
As in #55:

Mike Ornellas (who DOES know what he is talking about!)

Please send all your documents in single page READER SPREADS. People have no clue as to set up documents for the bevy of conditions that have to be considered for print.

[Emphasis — mine.]

… because images can cross the gutter.

——–
Just to provide some background info. for those to whom this is unknown territory: Paste-up CAMERA-READY Mechanicals were an entirely different commodity and date from an earlier and different time when there was NO "imposition software".

The Mechanicals, pasted up on artboards, were placed in front of a copy camera and imaged onto printing plate-sized sheets of film into which the image separations would be manually stripped.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Whether you find a previous comment as an insult to your printer or not, the printer is responsible for imposition. As clearly noted by Wade, the typical designer knows nothing about the type of imposition nor the amount of creep required by the printer.

And even if you are asked to supply impositions, you would never, ever supply a reader’s spread to a printer as Ann suggests.

Adobe has added imposition for casual use. It is even present in Adobe Reader. Just ask any Adobe rep why they do not offer more professional imposition functions and they will explain the same thing Wade has noted. Imposition options belong in the hands of the printer, not the designer.

Mike made a mistake in conveying a point he surely knows well. Try my emphasis…

Please send all your documents in SINGLE PAGE reader spreads.

A spread, as any designer knows, is a combination of more than one page. We don’t spread a single page. You cannot have a single page combination of more than one page. That’s an oxymoron.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Jim:

You are wrong.

InDesign creates Reader Spread PDFs for a purpose — because design elements do cross gutters.

You obviously have very little Print experience.
SS
Steven_Scotten
Oct 26, 2008
I don’t know that I’ve ever worked with two printers who have ever given me the same specs for job submission, but I’ve worked in prepress long enough that there are two words a designer should never use because they will always get one into trouble: "never" and "always".

These words usually show up in online discussion when people talk about how to use software to give files to printers. Usually they are good advice for a particular situation that might be the most common, but which will prove disastrous in others. My personal favorite is: "Never scan images higher than 250 to 300 ppi." But I digress.

I see a lot of "always" and "never" talk in this thread. It usually comes up when someone asks for a feature. There are always people around who "know better" than to use that feature. Add a touch of defensiveness about the suggestion that their favorite software might be in some way deficient, and you get a flame war.
B
Buko
Oct 26, 2008
Back in the days before computers It was common for designers to send us work in Printers spreads as mechanicals. Back then it was easy to chop the film up if they screwed up. Also I laid out many catalogs as 8 flats to save imposing the film.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Ann, take your insane arguments about readers spreads to an InDesign or QuarkXPress forum. You will quickly be corrected.
JM
J_Maloney
Oct 26, 2008
What are some potential problems with imposing reader spreads?
B
Buko
Oct 26, 2008
you layout all work in ID or Quark in readers spreads. This means you layout both pages as a reader would see/read them.

When you set up a document you would choose facing pages.

this is how you would layout a magazine or book. It seems that jim has not laid out a book or magazine and does not know this.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
No problems that I know of JM — providing that you have used Printer’s marks; indicated fold and trimlines; provided bleeds; and have color management set correctly; have embedded fonts and generally done everything else correctly.

Jim is way out of his depth on this subject.
B
Buko
Oct 26, 2008
What are some potential problems with imposing reader spreads?

You don’t impose Readers spreads, you impose single pages.

You layout the magazine in readers spreads/facing pages, you export the pdf as single pages in the same PDF. so your PDF has say 32 single pages in it. the printer will take the PDF and impose the 32 pages in a manner that when printed and bound it will be in order.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
If you have elements that cross the gutter and send out single pages you will need to add bleed on the gutter side if the production will be "Perfect Bound".

Sending the document as Readers Spreads provides the printer with the extra image material that he needs for creep or binding.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
You don’t impose Readers spreads, you impose single pages.

Which is why Ann is oddly telling everyone (in response to Linda’s PDF imposition question) to make Readers Spreads in post #54.

It seems that jim has not laid out a book or magazine and does not know this.

Buko is apparently a troll. Of course these apps present work as reader’s spreads but the PDF file that is sent to the printer (and which Linda was discussing in post #51) would not be sent as readers spreads. If they were, the printer would have to undo the spreads to make their own imposition. This is why Buko and a few other intelligent folks in this thread are advising the single page PDF, not a spread of any kind.

It is clear that some here are either grossly ignorant or simply want to argue.
B
Buko
Oct 26, 2008
I just send pages with an 1/8 inch bleed never had a problem.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Sending the document as Readers Spreads provides the printer with the extra image material that he needs for creep or binding.

So does sending a single page PDF file with proper bleed settings. Apparently Ann is unaware that modern software does this. Even Buko seems to know this.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 26, 2008
Jim –

Single page reader spreads are easier for printers to deal with – that know what they are doing as Scott said. With Impose or Preps, you create a run list or page sequence along with a page layout for each sheet. You merge these two together to create an imposition. With single pages its much easier to replace a page as well as a signature.

Having to fix a broken printer spread often times screws up the page sequence and makes things far more difficult to figure out – especially if the pages look very similar in a layout. Again, you are doing yourself no good to do complex impositions in printer spreads the way the layout softwares are designed to function.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Mike:

You are in fact advocating the submission of the original Reader SPREADS — as opposed to separated single pages (cut-out from the original double-page Reader Spread)?
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 26, 2008
Shingling should NEVER be done by a customer~! The binding style, page sequence along with the STOCK THICKNESS describes the creep offset.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Mike:

As I thought. Thank you.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 26, 2008
Reader spreads are ok as well for saddle stiched books that are not over 96 pages. For perfect binding, some can deal with the bleed cross over in the bind and burry the hack mistake, but it’s better to do single pages for perfect bind.
JM
J_Maloney
Oct 26, 2008
If they were, the printer would have to undo the spreads to make their own imposition.

I wonder what that entails? I know with manual imposition, it requires only a different imposition template. I’m not even sure I know what "undo" means in this situation. But I’m ready to learn.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Single page reader spreads are easier for printers to deal with

Mike, do you understand what an oxymoron is?

A spread is more than one page. You cannot have a ‘single page reader spread’. You can have a single page or a reader spread.
SW
Scott_Weichert
Oct 26, 2008
Okay semantics… single pages and displayed/positioned in reader spread order is what everyone is referring to. I have a feeling you know that Jim and just want to nitpick. Id you truly didn’t understand that, then.. well….
JM
J_Maloney
Oct 26, 2008
Well, no. I’m referring to reader spreads. I’d like to know from the big pro himself, reasons why one would NEVER send reader _spreads_ to a printer.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 26, 2008
This is kind of funny! I guess not really worth a response.
JM
J_Maloney
Oct 26, 2008
Funny like a clown?

Seriously, the big pro implied that it would be insane to send a printer reader spreads. I haven’t used imposition software in 10 years, but in stripping manually this requires a different template only. Of course, so does supplied printers spreads, but the template would be more complicated (particularly with creep), and you always have the worry that they screwed up the impo anyway. But with reader spreads that isn’t a problem.

Is there something I’m missing? I can understand if you said "my $1000 impo program can only center pages," but otherwise it seems to me that while single pages (with appropriate bleed) must be preferred, it wouldn’t even be close to _insane_ to send a printer reader spreads. I can’t really think of a great reason to demand it of a printer. Maybe the client wants the spread-checked PDF that’s signed-off to be the same PDF that goes to the printer? Can’t do THAT with single pages…
L
LRK
Oct 26, 2008
Scott wrote:

I do both regularly. I do feel it’s best to leave it to the printer. I’m not pleased when I’m asked for printer spreads. It does show a lack or technical skill on the part of a printer. But, depending on budgets, sometimes you have to deal with those that don’t like imposing.

I actually keep a copy of IDCS2 installed with the InBooklet plug in installed to allow me to impose IDCS2 files easily without printing to PDFS. I do strongly wish Adobe would add a standard imposition package to ID similar to InBooklet. I don’t want to impose and print to a PDF… I want to just impose at times.

Thank goodness for IDCS2 and that little InBooklet plug-in that was made available at the time.

* * *

Most of the work I send to press or a local printer is on a much smaller scale than what some of you work with. For the most part I avoid taking new print design clients, and any job that is too large. I have a handful of local designers (both for print and websites) I recommend for anything that will cause undo stress.

Probably the largest jobs I’ve done in the past, would be more like a 20 page glossy full color or 2 color annual report or a CD/DVD booklet. What I do on a regular bases is publish a 8 or 12 page newsletter for a local non profit, for which the printer practically gives away the printing as a good gesture to the organization.

* * *

In any case, there is food for thought being posted in this thread, which should prove helpful for some readers.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 26, 2008
Is it a mistake Jim?

So you can’t build a 11 x 17 single page spread?

Hmm…

That’s new to me…
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
single pages and displayed/positioned in reader spread order is what everyone is referring to. I have a feeling you know that Jim and just want to nitpick

Everyone but Ann seems to understand, yet she attacks another (Wade) for knowing better than her and claiming he has ‘insufferable arrogance’. I’m not here to nitpick. I’m here to tell Ann that she has a bit to learn about the printing industry before calling others arrogant. And if she won’t listen to common sense, hopefully the naive that follow here bogus advice will learn.

If you allow the semantics of ‘single page reader spread’ then you must allow the recognition that Ann is an ‘intelligent idiot’.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 26, 2008
Yes Jim, it is a mistake. Are you happy?
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Mike entertain us with anywhere you can find that defines a reader spread or a printer spread as not ‘a pairing of pages’. You are trying to make a definition outside of the printing industry, which is very odd for you.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 26, 2008
Sometimes people build spreads in single pages and it creates a lot of problems for the person who has to lay the job out on a press sheet.

Read what I am saying very carefully.

You can build a single page document but the contents is a spread.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Sometimes people build spreads in single pages and it creates a lot of problems for the person who has to lay the job out on a press sheet.

Which is why Ann was silly to advise sending spreads. And why she is still silly for thinking you two are in agreement and not realizing your corrections to her.

As I thought. Thank you.

The arrogance Ann alleges in Wade is comically her own… thinking she was correct to advise spreads, even after clear correction. Post 82-84 shows her cluelessness.
B
Buko
Oct 26, 2008
the only arrogant one is you Jim.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 26, 2008
Anyone got change for a 20?

I need to get some popcorn at the confession stand.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Sure Buko, I’m arrogant for agreeing with you, Wade and Mike on sending single page PDF files.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Jim:

Please re-read Mike’s posts _ particularly this sentence:

Sometimes people build spreads in single pages and it creates a lot of problems for the person who has to lay the job out on a press sheet. >

In other words: for multi-page saddle-bound documents, please send SPREADS. And in todays’ wordl that usually means READER Spreads.

——-
The CAMERA-READY Paste-up MECHANICALS of some 20 years ago were an entirely different proposition.

If a Printer knew that he could rely on a customer to supply 100% correct and accurate Mechanicals — that were truly Camera-Ready — he would request "PRINTER’S SPREADS because it saved everyone a lot of time, materials, expense and extra work.

A bit before your time, and beyond your experience and comprehension I fear Jim?
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Ann, you are sooo clueless. Mike is using his words from a printer’s POV and you are confusing them with your designer’s POV. Don’t say ‘in other words’ if you cannot understand his own words. The spreads Mike is referring to are two designer’s pages imposed in a single PDF page.

Stop arguing with me and take on Buko <http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?14@@.59b53787/5>. We both seem to agree you are off base.

Buko’s own words:

A. that is the printers job they have software for that. just give them a PDF.

Many shops will charge you extra if you do the imposition yourself as they will need to break apart what you have done creating extra work for them.

Any type of spread (whether reader or printer) created in a single page PDF file from 2 or more designer’s pages is what we endeavor to avoid. The printer will have to break these up into single design pages to fit the printer’s imposition. This is what Mike is saying.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Any type of spread (whether reader or printer) created in a single page PDF file from 2 or more designer’s pages is what we endeavor to avoid.

Total tripe and utter balderdash!

The printer will have to break these up into single design pages to fit the printer’s imposition.

Which is why he has his expensive imposition software for the purpose.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 26, 2008
I’m still trying to figure out how I got in the middle of this mud slinging contest.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Mike:

Unfortunately you ran into our resident misogynistic Troll!

🙁
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Ann is confused. I have no issue with women. I have an issue with an argumentative individual who has been corrected by everyone else on the matter of sending reader spreads – – yet she continues her nonsense. She is too chicken to post her nonsense in a page layout forum because she knows her misinformation will be discredited immediately. Only in this forum, where there is an unhealthy dose of ignorance, does Ann feel safe calling others like Wade arrogant. Where is Neil to stop her attacks?
L
LRK
Oct 26, 2008
Only in this forum, where there is an unhealthy dose of ignorance, does Ann feel safe calling others like Wade arrogant.

So sorry but I had to LOL @ this one. 😉
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Oct 26, 2008
Linda, since our posts were to aid you, at what point did Wade, Mike, Buko or myself say we were better than another? I think that is the clear demonstration of arrogance.

We work in printing. We have experience. If you find experience equal to arrogance then maybe we should not feel obligated to help you in the future.
L
LRK
Oct 26, 2008
Linda, since our posts were to aid you, at what point did Wade, Mike, Buko or myself say we were better than another? I think that is the clear demonstration of arrogance.

Jim, You misunderstood the intent of my post. It had to do with a bit of history in the Photography Forum, and it was meant in good humor to lighten things up a bit. Guess it backfired. I mean no offense to you, or to the others.
JM
J_Maloney
Oct 26, 2008
So why again is it nonsensical to send reader spreads to a printer? It’s still unclear.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 26, 2008
because it saved everyone a lot of time, materials, expense and extra work.

Here is the difference and the mistake both her and her printers made.

Since in the old days they had to shoot the process images separately and that went to he separator it made no sense for the studio to prepare the mechanical art imposed in any way.

They were going to cut the film and strip it in anyway and why all the printers I worked with had their own stripping department. they were able to cut on the cutting table which was also the stripping table because they used a device called an accucut which was precision cutting tool that allow you to cut through the film but not cut the table of film that was underneath the film you were cutting. Or of course your grid.

This procedure was so fine that they could butt process images as accurately as you can with a computer. Back then a good stripper made $75.00 an hour, that was more than what many doctors made.

Ann even when you spec the paper you have to be aware that the paper you spec comes in different sheet sizes and there is on occasion a problem with this for the printer. On occasion the paper manufacturer, for some unspecified reason has to lay the paper out what I will call cross grain which mean the job may have to run work and turn as opposed to work tumble. that change the imposition of the job as they may then want to print say form wise as opposed to sheet wise, depending on the amount of ink coverage you needed.

Therefore they had to strip the job differently. and since the plates were quite large and the job had to be stripped anyway they always waited to get the art before imposing the job.

Imposing in the way you suggest did them no good what so ever since they had to do this work anyway. After which you would receive your blues and color keys and the you usually ran a press proof as well as go on line with the job.

There was little room to make a mistake this way as you could check blues with the mechanicals. You front and rear Cover naturally being the exception.

However you did it it was not the chosen way and trust me I have prepared thousands and thousands of mechanical art for everyone from IBM to MoMA, the biggest Agencies Design Firms Corporations in the entire world I have never been asked to prepare mechanical art in this way but once and thatwas only because the client thought they were saving money.

The statement above you made does not imply high end printing but budget restricted printing. Regardless of what you think you did not save any money, the printer only led you to believe you did. That might not be pleasant, but ask MO if a printer would do such a thing just to pacify a client?

You never had to go through the trouble, they had to strip the photos they most like shot art separately from text and striped it, they had to strip the job,there was no need to do what you say you did.

Yes I know camera ready art, you have not prepared a fraction of what I have in my life.

You would have been much better off if you had never heard the term impose. You just wasted time. Though you probably enjoyed it made the job more complicated figuring out the pages and and complicating the matter to make yourself what feel more important.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Oct 26, 2008
because it saved everyone a lot of time, materials, expense and extra work.

Here is the difference and the mistake both her and her printers made.

Since in the old days they had to shoot the process images separately and that went to he separator it made no sense for the studio to prepare the mechanical art imposed in any way.

They were going to cut the film and strip it in anyway and why all the printers I worked with had their own stripping department. they were able to cut on the cutting table which was also the stripping table because they used a device called an accucut which was precision cutting tool that allow you to cut through the film but not cut the table of film that was underneath the film you were cutting. Or of course your grid.

This procedure was so fine that they could butt process images as accurately as you can with a computer. Back then a good stripper made $75.00 an hour, that was more than what many doctors made.

Ann even when you spec the paper you have to be aware that the paper you spec comes in different sheet sizes and there is on occasion a problem with this for the printer. On occasion the paper manufacturer, for some unspecified reason has to lay the paper out what I will call cross grain which mean the job may have to run work and turn as opposed to work tumble. that change the imposition of the job as they may then want to print say form wise as opposed to sheet wise, depending on the amount of ink coverage you needed.

Therefore they had to strip the job differently. and since the plates were quite large and the job had to be stripped anyway they always waited to get the art before imposing the job.

Imposing in the way you suggest did them no good what so ever since they had to do this work anyway. After which you would receive your blues and color keys and the you usually ran a press proof as well as go on line with the job.

There was little room to make a mistake this way as you could check blues with the mechanicals. You front and rear Cover naturally being the exception.

However you did it it was not the chosen way and trust me I have prepared thousands and thousands of mechanical art for everyone from IBM to MoMA, the biggest Agencies Design Firms Corporations in the entire world I have never been asked to prepare mechanical art in this way but once and thatwas only because the client thought they were saving money.

The statement above you made does not imply high end printing but budget restricted printing. Regardless of what you think you did not save any money, the printer only led you to believe you did. That might not be pleasant, but ask MO if a printer would do such a thing just to pacify a client?

You never had to go through the trouble, they had to strip the photos they most like shot art separately from text and striped it, they had to strip the job,there was no need to do what you say you did.

Yes I know camera ready art, you have not prepared a fraction of what I have in my life.

You would have been much better off if you had never heard the term impose. You just wasted time. Though you probably enjoyed it made the job more complicated figuring out the pages and and complicating the matter to make yourself what feel more important.
L
LRK
Oct 26, 2008
I can see how my tongue in cheek attempt at humor was misunderstood. It really was related to some recent events at the Photography Forum. Hope I didn’t offend anyone else.
B
Buko
Oct 26, 2008
I was not offended Linda.
L
LRK
Oct 26, 2008
Oh good. Thank you Buko!
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Nor was I Linda — but then I knew the background to your remarks only too well!

———–
Regarding Press Output both historically and currently …

My Camera-Ready boards contained pasted-up type (actually I had the luxury of having the facilities to output phototypesetting as pre-composed full-page layouts, complete with image boxes and captions, so virtually no Exacto slicing was needed and if there was a text-change, I just ran the whole page through the Varityper again.

Trim and bleed lines and IPO Veloxes were added to the boards (to indicate where the final illustrations (made from professionally scanned and separated art and photographs) were to be stripped.

Images were provided as original photographs to a specialist Separator company who then scanned them and prepared the film seps. and Chromalins. Following my approval of the proofs, the seps. were then stripped manually into the line-art film flats which had been shot directly from my pairs of pages arranged in Printers’ Spreads.

That was how the head of the Prepress departments (not the Sales Rep.!) of my printers instructed me to prepare the work.

Straight forward, easy, accurate and profitable. And the results were always outstanding.

This method was used for high-end work for companies such as Union Carbide, the Singer Corporation and Wall Street financial companies — not for the likes of "Nails by Darlene" or "Joe’s Diner".

These days, I submit PDFs in Reader’s Spreads exported from inDesign because THAT is the way that the Printers that I work with have asked for the work to be submitted.

Every single advertising agency and designer that I have worked with in Connecticut or NY prepares their files in QXP or inDesign and submits their files for Press output as PDF Readers Spreads (with page 1 as a single RHS page).
L
Lundberg02
Oct 26, 2008
Strippers can make 75/hr these days too. Easily.

Neil, haven’t we seen enough from this guy?
L
LRK
Oct 26, 2008
Nor was I Linda — but then I knew the background to your remarks only too well!

These days, I submit PDFs in Reader’s Spreads exported from inDesign because THAT is the way that the Printers that I work with have asked for the work to be submitted.

Every single advertising agency and designer that I have worked with in Connecticut or NY prepares their files in QXP or inDesign and submits their files for Press output as PDF Readers Spreads (with page 1 as a single RHS page).

Thanks Ann. I knew you would get the gist of what I was saying. And I am happy to know that I am not isolated when it comes to imposition.

I have no problem allowing the printer to do the imposition and would just as soon have one less thing to do. I might even try sending this month’s newsletter as single pages, just to see what they do. I turn the newsletter over to another volunteer starting in January. It would be nice if he can submit his files without having to impose, especially since his version doesn’t have the plugin.
B
Buko
Oct 26, 2008
I’ve had printers that have reduced the cost to my clients for printing if I impose jobs. I’m seeing this less and less now. you really need to know what you are doing though. As Mike commented if you screw up it can end up costing you more in the end.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
That was definitely the case in the days of hand stripping — it actually translated into a bigger profit margin for us as it took no longer to paste-up IMPOSED pages than two page Reader Spreads.

Today I suspect that it depends on whether or not a printer owns high-end imposition software.

However, you do need to make sure that you obtain the correct page-order template from your Printers.
B
Buko
Oct 26, 2008
Working closely with your printer is always a good idea.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 26, 2008
Exactly.

And being "on Press" (and I do mean IN the Press room with the light booth not drinking coffee in some "Customer Lounge"!) when your job runs — even if it is at 4:00 a.m. — is essential.

Memories of one terrible night when the more we tried to correct the Press during the Make-Ready for a mysterious faint green tint that was appearing, the greener it got.

Turned out that they had run a Green Pantone Spot color job just before ours and the crew hadn’t cleaned up sufficiently between jobs!

If we hadn’t been there, we probably would have ended up with 80,000,000 unusable sheets — and the stock had specially been shipped right across the country from Washington State for just this job and there was none extra to spare.
SS
Steven_Scotten
Oct 27, 2008
Strippers can make 75/hr these days too. Easily.

$75/hour went a lot farther in 1988 than it does in 2008. Strippers still make good money, but the demand for them is not as high as it used to be.
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 27, 2008
My comment on print production…like several others here, went from art school to paste-up mechanicals, with two-coat rubber cement and Relyon proofs. Back then, all art was in reading spreads with keylined photostats standing in as photo FPOs.

All multi-page digital work (although much work now is single-page advertising and packaging) is still in reading spreads as that is the way our printers prefer them. There is NO way we can predict in advance which press or sheet the job will wind up on. With the last minute availability of different size presses and stock, and stock grain direction, ink balance across the sheet (left to right, and front to back), different bindery methods, creep and bleed allowances, and possible page sequence confusion, I’d be foolish to try to figure it out for myself.

Neil
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 27, 2008
My comment on print production…like several others here, went from art school to paste-up mechanicals, with two-coat rubber cement and Relyon proofs. Back then, all art was in reading spreads with keylined photostats standing in as photo FPOs.

All multi-page digital work (although much work now is single-page advertising and packaging) is still in reading spreads as that is the way our printers prefer them. There is NO way we can predict in advance which press or sheet the job will wind up on. With the last minute availability of different size presses and stock, stock basis and thickness, and stock grain direction, plus the issues of ink balance across the sheet (left to right, and front to back), and possible choices of different bindery methods with their attendant creep and bleed allowances, and possible page sequence confusion, I’d be foolish to try to figure out imposition for myself.

I can probably count on my fingers the number of times I had to do printing spreads or imposition. Let’s see…page one goes with page 16; page two with 15; page three with 14. Wait, does the odd folio always go on the right; do I alternate, or…? <g>

Neil
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 27, 2008
People build files usually in reader spreads because it helps their brain visualize the spread, but it’s not always the best case situation to build the file like this. A user NEEDS to have a good concept of how the document should be bound, but things do change. Building flexibility within the document, aids the creator as well as the producer.

If people would just build their documents as single pages, it would solve a LOT of problems from creation to output because the Applications are NOT geared towards changes enough.

In Design does NEEDS to do a better job as far as object position when pages break apart. Then there is also the dreadful linked text between pages well as the master page items night mares when spreads need to split into singles.

So many things still need to be fixed still, it’s just mind boggling to me that we still have these problems.

And then there is the issue of specifying the 0,0 point on a page other then the document 0,0 to aid the stripper to have mutiple page insertion points to adjust for over sized pages as well as floater ads.

It’s all a mess to me.
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 27, 2008
Mike,

I don’t disagree with submitting files as single page PDFs, even if the master files are in reading spreads. I do recall a 250-page directory (magazine size) we did for a few years where the printer did want single-page art.

Neil
L
LRK
Oct 27, 2008
I can probably count on my fingers the number of times I had to do printing spreads or imposition. Let’s see…page one goes with page 16; page two with 15; page three with 14. Wait, does the odd folio always go on the right; do I alternate, or…? <g>

LOL Neil. I had to do this a few times myself when I was using Quark. Being dyslexic, it was a trip. 🙂
DK
Doug_Katz
Oct 27, 2008
Mikey, I have an N-page booklet. Every page has a full bleed background: Yellow verso, Green recto.

How do I best prepare the interior (gutter) edges of these pages for you if I submit them as standalones? Bleed the background on both? On one? On neither? What’s best?
NK
Neil_Keller
Oct 27, 2008
Doug,

Be sure that you verify what you’re doing with your printer of choice for the job. His workflow may require something different.

Neil
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 27, 2008
Build it as one single spread for each side full bleed. You need to compensate for the fold by shorting one if not two of the panels so they tuck into the fold of the adjacent page. I would need to see the mechanical as Neal has stated. Put fold marks outside the bleed along with call outs if that helps you visualize.

Grain on the stock is an issue due to possible cracking at the folds, but I need to know the entire job.

And is it going digital offset, offset or web, or crayon.
DK
Doug_Katz
Oct 27, 2008
Yes, Neil, that I most surely will do. But we both know Mikey knows lotsa stuff. And I wanted to find out how it should be done… from a guy who gets industry standards and the real world, all at the same time.

Thanks, Mike.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Oct 27, 2008
You are welcome Doug.

The only thing I have is a headache from the school of hard knocks. Good thing my helmet is thick.

Or is that me.

go ask Jeff.

;o~
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Oct 27, 2008
To get back to Linda’s original topic, the comments on this pages might be sufficiently "compelling":

<http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2008/10/feelin_some_love.html>

🙂
L
LRK
Oct 27, 2008
Thanks for the link Ann. The "better" performance sounds promising depending on what it pertains to. I plan to wait to see what users have to say after it’s been out for a few weeks.
L
LRK
Oct 31, 2008
Curious. Can you link a masked Smart Object to it’s Mask in PSCS4?
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 1, 2008
Yes!

🙂
L
LRK
Nov 1, 2008
Well that’s good. Usually it’s the very features I want that get left out. 😉
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 1, 2008
I know the feeling — there are still no double sliders in the History palette — but Adobe made everything else SO much better right across the Suite that it would seem churlish to complain about the History palette.

… I have already put in a request for it in CS5 however …!

😉
L
LRK
Nov 1, 2008
… I have already put in a request for it in CS5 however …!

Good luck on that. 😉
N
nunatak
Nov 1, 2008
I installed the CS4 Design Sweet onto a new MacBook Pro(sumer) the other day.

IMO, the most compelling reason to upgrade is the integrated performance between applications — which have already shown significant workflow improvements. As a bonus, it also appears to be very stable running on 10.5.5.

Congratulations Adobe. This is perhaps one of your best (and smoothest) upgrades yet.
L
LRK
Nov 2, 2008
Thank you for your comments nunatak.
R
Ram
Nov 2, 2008
As someone still waiting for the trial version, and for the price of a modest lunch, I’ve just ordered Adobe Photoshop CS4: Up to Speed (Paperback) by Ben Willmore from Amazon.com < http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Photoshop-CS4-Up-Speed/dp/032158 0052/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225605789&s r=8-6>

It seems like a very good way to get enough information to make a decision whether to upgrade or not.

This from the blurb:

…Up to Speed goes right to the heart of Photoshop CS4 what has changed, what is new, and how you can get the most out of the features as quickly as possible.

Rather than sift through hundreds of pages detailing every last Photoshop feature and function (both old and new), you can go directly to the new features that interest you the most and get the explanations you desire in the classic Ben Willmore style– intuitive, crystal clear, and in-depth.

By focusing on a single topic–what’s new in this version–the award-winning author provides precisely what experienced Photoshop users have been clamoring for, in exactly the depth they demand.
MR
Mark_Reynolds
Nov 2, 2008
The Up to Speed books are some of the best available if you ask me, covers in detail whats new – I always try and check them out whenever a new version comes out. A really great aid in making the decision. Ben Willmore’s one of the few who is a genuinely advanced Photoshop user who writes about it with a proper understanding – a rare thing in Photoshop book authors. Recommended
L
LRK
Nov 2, 2008
Ramón, Thanks for the link to Ben’s new book. He is one of my favorite instructors. Ben will also be conducting a one day seminar on PSCS4 for Photographers in Ft. Lauderdale Nov. 24. If I can attend this class it will probably help me determine whether I really feel the need to upgrade.
L
LRK
Nov 18, 2008
One thing that would be nice is if when you choose "Load Files Into Stack" you can make it to where each file become a separate Smart Object automatically. I know you can automatically have the "Stack" become a SO, but not each file as it’s imported.
R
Ram
Nov 19, 2008
After having read through Adobe Photoshop CS4: Up to Speed (Paperback) by Ben Willmore < http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Photoshop-CS4-Up-Speed/dp/032158 0052/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225605789&s r=8-6> at least twice in its entirety and played around with the trial version, I’m on the verge of upgrading. I just need to go through two more steps, a series of printing tests and investigating ACR 5.2, which I expect to be released any day now.

Not that I presume to believe that anyone cares about whether I upgrade or not. This post is really just to report that the Willmore book exceeded my expectations. Best $17 purchase I’ve made all year. 🙂 Highly recommended.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Nov 19, 2008
Everyone really does care and spent the time tryibng to convince you to do so for a very good reason, they care!

Congratulations!

I think the rpinting will work for you as well.

And if you saw the two really beautiful and young Japanes women I justturned down so i could answer your post, you would know exactly how much I really, realy, really care.

BTW Japan is surprising friendly and a fairly easy place to get around.

Even without speaking the language. It is great that they are so visual and have photos on their menus. Also not as expensive as we are led to believe. Long flight but that is not as bad as we are lead to believe as well.

Enjoy CS 4 you will 6thank yourself for upgrading.
NT
Nini Tj
Nov 19, 2008
Ramón, if YOU are getting convinced to upgrade, then that is reason enough for anybody else too. Glad to hear that.
L
LRK
Nov 19, 2008
Ramón, I’m always pleased to see someone post their findings. I’ll have to check out Ben’s book. Thank you!
D
DYP
Nov 19, 2008
I am finding the Zoom behavior/bug to be quite annoying and causing more time to be used to complete most projects. I think I am going to sit this one out or at least until this is fixed.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 19, 2008
Don’t use the new Open GL Zoom if it bothers you — the old methods still work and there is a lot more to CS4 than Open GL.

However, I think that Open GL is a wonderful enhancement.
D
DYP
Nov 19, 2008
I have turned off (unchecked) Open GL and I still get the same behavior.

Here is the difference I have found between CS3 and CS4. In CS3 the checking or unchecking Resize Windows to Fit option for the zoom tool does not change the "Zoom Resizes Window" in preferences.

In CS4 it does. I have not found anywhere to change this behavior.

Open GL Zoom

Where is there a setting like that.
NK
Neil_Keller
Nov 19, 2008
Ramón,

and played around with the trial version, I’m on the verge of upgrading.

The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, and Washington Post are holding their presses. <g>

Neil
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 19, 2008
DYP:

By "Open GL Zoom" I am referring to Birdseye and Animated zooming with the Space bar combinations.

You can always UN-check "Zoom Resizes Windows" in the Prefs.; and turn it on or off at will from the Options Bar.
D
DYP
Nov 19, 2008
In CS3 I could zoom out and in with the Command + or – key and that would resize the window but Command, Space Bar and mouse click would not resize the window.

Now with CS4 if I set (in preferences Zoom Resizes Windows) both ways of zooming resizes the window. And like I just said checking or unchecking "Resize Windows to Fit" option for the zoom tool changes the "Zoom Resizes Window" in preferences. In CS3 it did not change the setting in preferences.
L
LRK
Nov 19, 2008
There might be a bug-a-boo related to layer groups with smart objects and masks.

When attempting to bring layer groups with smart objects into layer groups with smart object in another document. I could not duplicate the group into the other open document and had to select different layer in the target document before I could drag and drop the group in. When I did the layer mask that was over the folder that contained the group from a previous document would not mask the images until I removed them from their current group and hand dragged them into the folder they were already in.
L
LRK
Nov 19, 2008
The only gotcha I’ve found is that if you use two monitors and slide any part of an image window onto the secondary screen (regardless of cursor location), the title bar can go up under the main screen’s menu bar. Not a huge deal but somewhat annoying.

It happened to me too Phil.
L
LRK
Nov 20, 2008
Looks like the crop tool is now incorporated with the slice tools. This is very inconvenient since I use them both a lot. Now when you hit C to get the crop tool you often get the slice tool, which means you have to go to the tool bar, click on it to make it fly out, then choose the other tool that is hidden. One more thing to slow down the workflow.

Why did they change this?
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 20, 2008
You can use the Shift key to cycle between the Crop tools but you need to set that capability in the Prefs..

I imagine that those tools got bundled to make room in the Tools palette for the new 3D tools.
AW
Allen_Wicks
Nov 20, 2008
Ramón-

Thanks much for your commentary on the Wilmore book. Your comments and Ann’s have me convinced. Unfortunately my clients (retail stores) are in a serious recession that forecasts to be long term. E.g. yesterday floor sales folks learned that their work hours are being temporarily reduced, and I am very busy building marketing plans and pieces all based around discounting previously unheard of pre-Thanksgiving.

Very expensive upgrades of already-mature apps are discretionary purchases that get postponed in a difficult economy, for very good reason. We will continue to market aggressively but we will use CS3 to do it.
L
LRK
Nov 20, 2008
You can use the Shift key to cycle between the Crop tools but you need to set that capability in the Prefs..

Very good Ann. That works good enough. Thank you!

Ramón,

After having read through Adobe Photoshop CS4: Up to Speed (Paperback) by Ben Willmore at least twice in its entirety and played around with the trial version, I’m on the verge of upgrading. I just need to go through two more steps, a series of printing tests and investigating ACR 5.2, which I expect to be released any day now.

Not that I presume to believe that anyone cares about whether I upgrade or not. This post is really just to report that the Willmore book exceeded my expectations. Best $17 purchase I’ve made all year. Highly recommended.

At your recommendation I placed an order for this book as well as Ben’s new book on PSCS4 Studio Techniques, and a stack of other books related to the different upgrades in the Suite. Even with the Amazon.com discount my book order came to $170. Oy!

Allen is probably right in his prudence, but I feel I should try to stay up to speed for my business.
AW
Allen_Wicks
Nov 20, 2008
Addendum: If Adobe was to provide the kind of discounting that brick-and-mortar retailers across the US are making available on brand new latest product CS4 might then be an attractive product even in this economy. Not likely…
L
LRK
Nov 20, 2008
Addendum: If Adobe was to provide the kind of discounting that brick-and-mortar retailers across the US are making available…

Where can one get these discounts. We are fixing up a room for client meetings. Unfortunately I’m not seeing big discounts with the supplies I’ve been purchasing.
JJ
John Joslin
Nov 20, 2008
Regarding Linda’s problem with the co-location of Crop and Slice tools, the just published Adobe Configurator provides a perfect way to get round that little difficulty.

Here it is: <http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/configurator/>
AW
Allen_Wicks
Nov 20, 2008
Where can one get these discounts? I’m not seeing big discounts

You must be kidding. Walk into any department store in the country November 28th if not sooner. Start with Macys…

One article today:
< http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/technology/internet/20slas hing.html>
L
LRK
Nov 20, 2008
Allen, I was referring to home improvement related materials. Brick and mortar made me think of them.
L
LRK
Nov 20, 2008
There are issues with PSCS4. After working with the Free Transform tools for a while on a clients product image, I started seeing a huge slow down, then finally the SBB of death. It seems to have affected the overall performance of my G5. Matter of fact, I forced quit PSCS4 while it was in Save for Web, and it won’t go away.
L
LRK
Nov 20, 2008
The whole computer went bonkers. I finally had to turn it off with the button.

Added note: All this happened after installing the entire suite today. I did run permissions. Will probably do some more utilities.

The slowdown almost seemed as if someone were accessing my computer.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 20, 2008
I don’t know if you do this or not, but if I need to SFW from a large or complex file, I first Duplicate that file (but don’t Save it).

Then I flatten, downsize and convert the DUPLICATE to sRGB — and then use SFW.

I can then close the Duplicate without saving it because it is no longer needed.

This speeds things up and prevents SFW from choking on large complex files.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 20, 2008
Run DiskWarrior after installing the CS4 Suite because it is a massive and complex installation.
R
Ram
Nov 20, 2008
On a slightly different track, I’m actually amazed at how well CS4 runs on my officially unsupported G4.

Last night I left Bridge working on a folder with 96 raw files weighing 13 MB each in Auto Stack Panorma/HDR mode (there were groups of both) and got away from the computer to get a snack. I thought it would take hours, literally, but when I got back some 25 minutes later, it was done,
NT
Nini Tj
Nov 20, 2008
Something people also regularly forget after an installation is to restart the computer. Adobe apps loves restarts of computer.
L
LRK
Nov 21, 2008
Run DiskWarrior after installing the CS4 Suite because it is a massive and complex installation.

Hi Ann,

I ran DW this morning and it seemed to fix some things. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Maybe I’m a little paranoid, but at times my computer feel sluggish overall, as if it were being shared. I checked file sharing and it’s turned off. But this reminds me of the days when I had to use a shared server.

I wonder if there is a way to turn off the feature that allows Adobe to receive feedback from my software. Can’t remember what it was called, but when I installed the software there was a notice about it in the agreement.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 21, 2008
I believe that you can "opt out" at any time but I don’t know how you do that. (I never "opted in" in the first place!)

I imagine that Customer Service will know the answer.
L
LRK
Nov 21, 2008
Back to a previous post that I waited to comment on…

I don’t know if you do this or not, but if I need to SFW from a large or complex file, I first Duplicate that file (but don’t Save it).

Then I flatten, downsize and convert the DUPLICATE to sRGB — and then use SFW.

I can then close the Duplicate without saving it because it is no longer needed.

This speeds things up and prevents SFW from choking on large complex files.

Thanks Ann, but this would not be practical for me. When I’m working on websites, I am slicing and saving for web continually.

I think things are moving along better today. Will keep you posted.
L
LRK
Nov 21, 2008
I just realized I had not assigned my Scratch Drive to PSCS4. That may also help to improve performance.
C
Cindy
Nov 21, 2008
That may also help to improve performance.

Maybe just a little…:)
FM
Fred M Stevens
Nov 22, 2008
Quote from <http://www.adobe.com/misc/apipfaq.html> :

You can choose Help > Improvement Program Options at any time. You can then select the No option and stop your participation. After you select this option, data collection and transmission to Adobe will stop for the applicable product(s). You need to repeat this step for each Adobe product.
R
Ram
Nov 22, 2008
choose Help > Improvement Program Options

There’s no such thing in my setup.

[EDIT: For good reason. 🙂 I’m still using Acrobat 7.0.9. This silliness does not apply if you just have Photoshop 11 stand alone.]

From the link provided above:

Which products support the Adobe Product Improvement Program?

The Acrobat 9 product line is the first set of Adobe products to support this new program. However, Adobe expects to include support for this program in future versions of additional products.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Nov 22, 2008
Somebody got smart and took it out of the help menu and also got ri of a way to show the welcome screen which I prefer to have active.

Also gone from the Bridge.

I wonder who could have done this? The Bridge and Photoshop what do they have in common?
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
Quote from <http://www.adobe.com/misc/apipfaq.html> :

You can choose Help > Improvement Program Options at any time. You can then select the No option and stop your participation. After you select this option, data collection and transmission to Adobe will stop for the applicable product(s). You need to repeat this step for each Adobe product.

Fred,

Thank you for this information. I too am not seeing the Improvement Program Options in my Help Menu though.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
Correction to my previous post. I am seeing it in some of the CS4 applications. Not sure if I was signed on or not since it gives me the option to say yes or no. I’ll choose No Thanks on each of these.

Thank you again!
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
I do think the new upgrades have a nice look and feel to them. And other than the recent temporary (hopefully temporary) problem with PS, the new apps also seem snappier on my G5. Bridge definitely seems to be performing better.

I do wish the keyboard shortcuts for Bridge were the same as for Lightroom though, particularly rating images. I am accustomed to hitting the number alone to rate images in LR. In Bridge you have to do Command + Number. If I happen to forget and hit a number, it takes me to the top of the list, and I lose my place where I was sorting. It’s a problem for me, and will probably force me to use LR for all my sorting and rating.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
Spoke too soon

Output Module: Refresh Preview Buggy

Playing with Web Gallery in the Output Panel. I chose 4 low res images and clicked on Refresh Preview. I ended up with the continuing SBB and had to force quit.

Same thing happened with PDF in the Output Panel. I selected a few images, clicked on Refresh Preview and it did the same thing. Had to force quit again.
P
PShock
Nov 22, 2008
In Bridge you have to do Command + Number.

Only if you have prefs set up that way. Uncheck the "Require the Command key …" under the Label preferences.

The keyboard shortcuts I have most trouble with when bouncing between LR and Bridge is "R" and "N’. (In LR, R brings up the cropping tool and N brings up spotting tools – in Bridge, it’s C and B ) Not a huge deal but I wish there was a little more coherence.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Nov 22, 2008
LRK it is you not the Bridge.

The removal of the welcome screen and the Participate in the Program listing in the help menu from Photoshop nd the Bridge was idiotic at best.

Wh ever thought this was helpful should be fired from Adobe.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 22, 2008
Output Module: Refresh Preview Buggy

That doesn’t happen here.

Go to
Tools menu/Cache/Purge Cache for … Folder
if you run into a problem like that.

Bridge CS4 automatically imported your old Bridge caches and your original cache files may have been corrupted a long time ago.

Also, go through ALL the panels of the Prefs. for every new application in the Suite and make your selections and then re-launch the Application before you try to use the programs.

And that includes both Bridge, Camera Raw and your Color Settings. (Synchronize your Color Settings in the Bridge panel.)
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
Only if you have prefs set up that way. Uncheck the "Require the Command key …" under the Label preferences.

I went over and over the preferences and never saw that. Thank you Phil.

The keyboard shortcuts I have most trouble with when bouncing between LR and Bridge is "R" and "N’. (In LR, R brings up the cropping tool and N brings up spotting tools – in Bridge, it’s C and B ) Not a huge deal but I wish there was a little more coherence.

I wish there was more coherence too. It always baffles me when upgrade after upgrade comes out with more and more elaborate features, which granted are often very wonderful, but leaving so many of us continually just hoping for the simple changes that would help with day to day workflow.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
Go to Tools menu/Cache/Purge Cache for … Folder if you run into a problem like that.

That worked. Thank you Ann.

Also, go through ALL the panels of the Prefs. for every new application in the Suite and make your selections and then re-launch the Application before you try to use the programs.

And that includes both Bridge, Camera Raw and your Color Settings. (Synchronize your Color Settings in the Bridge panel.)

Will do. Again, thank you!
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
Well, I thought it worked, but it didn’t. Spinning beach ball just came a little later. Had to force quit again. I’ll try your second suggestion on the other apps. Maybe it will fix Bridge.
R
Ram
Nov 22, 2008
Wade,

The removal of the welcome screen

???

The splash screen is alive and well in my installation of Photoshop 11 and Bridge 3.0.

Maybe there’s a way to toggle it on and off somewhere?
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 22, 2008
My guess is that you have major corruption in your Cache files.

Your best bet would be to trash the lot and start again.

You can do a global trashing through Bridge prefs/Cache and will then need to let the Cache re-form — which may take a little while.

You may have to then use Tools menu/Cache/Purge Cache for … Folder on individual folders as well because I know that Ramón found that the "Date of Creation" metadata info. didn’t re-appear until he did that.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
Question about Video Card:

I have the NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GT OpenGL Engine. I don’t work with video other than when I render client files in Flash. Is there any reason why I should have this option checked in my PSCS4 Preferences?

Also, under Advanced Settings, there are three options: Vertical Sync, 3D Interaction Acceleration, and Force Bilinear Interpolation. The default seems to be Vertical and 3D checked with Force BI unchecked. Should I leave this as it is?
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 22, 2008
It’s not the "Splash" screen but that Welcome panel that would have appeared when you first launched a new CS3 or CS4 application.

If you tell it to go away and not come back at that time, it goes out of your life for ever it seems — and there is now apparently no way to get it back!
R
Ram
Nov 22, 2008
a global trashing through Bridge prefs/Cache

I wouldn’t advise that. But, if you do, see below.

You may have to then use Tools menu/Cache/Purge Cache for … Folder on individual folders as well because I know that Ramón found that the "Date of Creation" metadata info. didn’t re-appear until he did that.

Actually, I used the menu command Tools > Cache > Build and Export Cache…

When the dialog box comes up, check the "Export Cache to Folders" option box. This will include all enclosed subfolders, so you can point Bridge to an entire volume and go get some coffee.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 22, 2008
Open GL is THE hot new ticket in CS4!

You absolutely will want to have it checked so that you can use the new active zoom and brush-changing behavior and experiment with the 3D stuff too.

Use the default settings at first and see how you get on with those.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
You may have to then use Tools menu/Cache/Purge Cache for … Folder on individual folders as well because I know that Ramón found that the "Date of Creation" metadata info. didn’t re-appear until he did that.

What’s interesting is that when I Purge the Cache on the whole computer, it seems to happen instantaneously. That makes me wonder if it’s really purging.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
Open GL is THE hot new ticket in CS4!

You absolutely will want to have it checked so that you can use the new active zoom and brush-changing behavior and experiment with the 3D stuff too.

Use the default settings at first and see how you get on with those.

Very good. Thank you Ann.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 22, 2008
You can also trash the Bridge Caches manually.

You will find the folder in:

User/Library/Caches/Adobe/Bridge CS4 (also CS3)/Cache/

Inside that you will find folders for your image previews: 256 (thumbnails)
1024 (larger)
Full

and "Data"

Data holds your keywords
so you will want to save that folder — but trash the image previews.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
You can also trash the Bridge Caches manually. You will find the folder in: User/Library/Caches/Adobe/Bridge CS4 (also CS3)/Cache/

Inside that you will find folders for your image previews: 256 (thumbnails) 1024 (larger) Full and "Data"

Data holds your keywords so you will want to save that folder — but trash the image previews.

Hm, each of the preview folders were empty. The mystery deepens.

Another Question About Photoshop Preferences: What about Use Software Rendering. Should that be enabled with my Video Card?
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 22, 2008
"Use Software Rendering" is only for people (NOT you!) who have sub-standard video cards.

Leave it UN checked.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
"Use Software Rendering" is only for people (NOT you!) who have sub-standard video cards.

That’s what I was thinking but wanted to make sure. Thank you Ann.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 22, 2008
Re Caches:

If those folders are empty, use "Easyfind" (downloadable) to do a system-wide search for an Invisible file called "BridgeStore" .

That should indicate the location of your Bridge Cache files

Apples’ Search won’t reveal it unless you set Cocktail to show invisible files.
AW
Allen_Wicks
Nov 22, 2008
What’s interesting is that when I Purge the Cache on the whole computer, it seems to happen instantaneously. That makes me wonder if it’s really purging.

From a code standpoint I would expect such cache-purging to simply involve telling some pointers to no longer point; hence instantaneous.
L
LRK
Nov 22, 2008
I’ve spent a good part of the afternoon trouble shooting the Bridge Output Module problem with freezing. Ann and I were on the phone a couple of times, the last time we spent probably an hour or more trying different things. I’ve reinstalled, deinstalled, and reinstalled. I’ve deleted everything I know to delete. I’ve removed startup items from my Library. I’ve disabled fonts. Can’t think of anything else to do. But the problem with Bridge’s Refresh Preview in OutPut Module continues to produce the SBBOD.

Another user in the Bridge Forum just confirmed the same problem on his setup. So I’ll just use LR2 for this kind of work, as I love using LR anyway, and hopefully at some point this will be corrected one way or the other.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Nov 23, 2008
do not know who came up with this idea of getting rid of the splash screen for ever but there maybe a reason, I will either reinstall or wait for the next r;ease and see what they come up with.

My hope was that one would be able to create and manage job tickets with the welcome screen would be able then to go to the Bridge directly from the welcome screen and to the ticket to look at the folders and files I guess that is dead.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Nov 23, 2008
BTW the job ticket concept is really great could work with or without version cue.

You create a ticket an tell the application the current project is going in the ticket and all associated files from any application adobe or not. It then places any item you use in the ticket unless you say no. I t never moves anything to a location it remains where it is unless you tell it to collect the ticket in one new location.

Someone on the Bridge teams seems to think this is competing with what the bridge does.

when it is only a link.

Imagine telling the welcome screen to show the ticket it brings the bridge as a side panel to the front of the open applications frame and everything in the ticket is displayed, folders files links fonts etc. Regardless of where they physically reside. They could be on ten different disks and twenty folders.

The welcome screen is where you want this but someone got frightened and doesn’t want it to compete with the bridge.

It would have been great. Too bad.
L
LRK
Nov 23, 2008
I didn’t realize it was like a job ticket. That does sound handy. I don’t get the issue of competing with Bridge either.
L
LRK
Nov 23, 2008
It seems you can’t save settings as a new named template for a custom web gallery in the Output Module of Bridge. I do this in LR all the time. I checked the Help Menu but it doesn’t seem to address it. I’m tired though so I might be overlooking it as I often do. Signing off for now.
R
Ram
Nov 23, 2008
LRK,

Since you mention trying a bunch of stuff, have you by any chance run Preferential Treatment? It’s free, fast, uncomplicated and perfectly safe. Just checks all your user and system preference files.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 23, 2008
It seems you can’t save settings as a new named template for a custom web gallery in the Output Module of Bridge.

You can’t — and it is something that I am complaining about and asking for as a Feature Request.

What I have done is to find the original Bridge Style file; copy it and make minor changes to the code in TextEdit; and re-save the file to the original place with a new name.

For collecting all the files together (of ALL kinds) that may be needed for a particular Job or project, you can use Bridge’s "Collections Panel.

Make a new Collection folder and drag files from any other folder into it. (You are actually just creating aliases but are not physically moving any files.)

You can now open your Collection and have all the files that you need to populate an InDesign document, for example, visible and accessible from a single window.
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Nov 23, 2008
Not exactly the same thing as you have to do all the work to find it this would keep track of what you are doing and everything would be listed in your current job ticket just like in the old days you when you worked on a job you had to make a job ticket and it had t be filed with the traffic department, even if Like me you were a freelance person, no job ticket no invoice no invoice no work no work no pay.

The Job ticket controlled everything including double billing if you were working on a job you had to file according to the job number which went on the time sheet, no one could question that you spent the time because the job ticket was out and you had no way of listing it twice. No one ever question the charges because it was listed by job ticket and if a freelancer it was also listed by invoice.

It was a very secure and efficient method to give credence to our billing policy, traffic and deadline control and you l most never lost art and when you did you would simply turn the folder over and look at the back of all the art to see which piece it was stuck to.

This way even i it got stuck somewhere you would be able to find it and if you did not put the art in the correct sub folder or envelop within the job ticket you still new it was in the job ticket.

If it was lent out you could look at the log either in the job ticket or on the front of the ticket and you knew who had the art.

It was very rare that anything ever got lost, in all my years maybe twice. Maybe once!

It is different from a collection which is complicated to manage and then for each item you create you probably need another collection. Job tickets referenced clients and generally had a prefix with the clients initials.

The Bridge is great for doing the trafficking and but it is not a job ticket.

To LRK no the welcome screen was not a job ticket which is what you actually need it is a feature request I had proposed but it was shot down.

Illustrator and InDesign and Dreamweaver need it more than PS does but still if you are now working on hundreds and thousands of images and they are being listed as a job then you really need to open a job ticket and manger the work from there as say with a wedding.

LR and PS are fine for doing the work and keeping track of your production workflow but it cannot for instance tell you this is done and you now have to bill because there is no more work to be done. You cannot close a job ticket without billing which is designed that way as to give you a clinical time frame for billing. It would be great if the Bridge could take over at that point and offer you away to complete your invoice with all the job info listed.

But as Adobe probably will have to rely on a third party to make such a plug in and there is no such feature then there is no reason for a third party to create such a plug in.

It would be the missing link and make every photographer and design want to upgrade no matter how many bugs there were as long as this feature worked.

But they do not see how important my feature is and how important it is for making the bridge more successful.

Hopefully someone else will pick up on this and make it their proposal, especially if they work for Adobe and they have more influence.

I know that any application that allows me to click on a close job ticket button and then says would you like to bill the project I respond by saying not now and it tells me then you can’t closed the job ticket would you like to generate an invoice NOW! is on my side.

And I am buying it.

BTW it takes three or four tries before they come around and decide it does seem to have some merit.

And no one remembers who makes the feature request or whose idea it was and usually if one person is advancing the idea so are other people.

It will save a lot of time. For me at least.

BTW the thing about collections was the thing the Bridge people were afraid would get pushed aside if there was job ticket but they are to different animals.
-macman
Nov 23, 2008
Hi Linda,

Anything particular that you’re trying to achieve in Bridge that can’t be done in Lightroom?

You seem to have a firm footing in LR, so why waste time/frustration in duplicating the workflow in Bridge? Unless you have a valid reason for doing so, I’d just steer clear of Bridge for now.

Take Care!
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Nov 23, 2008
macman they can work together though lightroom I agree is in this respect more powerful then PS.

Lightroom is still about managing and processing images.

If you also do design work in conjunction with photography as she does then you have to go to PS and that would often mean using the Bridge to get you back to where you were they are not the same thing as people seem to think.

And i think but am not sure that Linda users lightroom more then photoshop these days.

Which makes sense.
L
LRK
Nov 23, 2008
Hi Macman,

Wade is right in his assessment on how I work. I really have good use for both LR and Bridge, provided Bridge does what I would expect it to. For me, Bridge ideally has it’s place for working on design jobs, while LR is my first choice for processing photos.

For example, yesterday I was working on design comps for a website redesign. I create the designs in Photoshop, then viewed the comps in Bridge and rated them. From there I made a gallery of my top comps, which I also customized with client information and colors that are compatible with the designs. Being able to do this in Bridge saves time in this case, provided I can keep going back to the same customized (and hopefully saved) gallery template, so I can make quick changes when I need to, then export and upload for the client to see.

If I’m processing photos, Lightroom saves me time, and the galleries are easily customized and saved with the click of a button. I only use PS on special photos that are chosen for enhancement as a general rule, so I can pretty much keep everything in LR until that time.

Hope this makes sense. 🙂

Linda
WZ
Wade_Zimmerman
Nov 23, 2008
I think a lot of people might possibly miss out on the way in which the Bridge can help them navigate after they have captured and processed their shoot. But of course many photographers do not really have a use for photoshop since they one do not know how to use it and two they only do photography and burn the images to a disk and send them out.

I would like to see both of them be configured for the future with a on board FTP feature for delivery of files to clients not jut for publishing web galleries since I do work for publications that are all over the place. Right now I have use Transmit which works fine but is still something I have go to the finder to access once it is launched.

Anyway for some the Bridge and LR work well together and are essential but the Bridge still has a long way to go before it is really the tool it has to be for users like Linda especially and less for users like me and probably less for users like yourself. But in any case it can be really helpful.
-macman
Nov 23, 2008
Sounds like you know what you’re doing, Linda. 🙂
Fair enough! Good Luck in ferreting out the discrepancies…

Bridge still has a long way to go before it is really the tool it has to be for users

I can’t comment on CS4, but I can’t run Bridge(CS3) on my box. It’s been permanently placed on the disabled list. Possibly the buggiest, pokiest and irksome software that I’ve had occasion to use. Ever! I’m not venturing anywhere near it again until I get faster hardware…

Thankfully, I have little to no need for it. I simply find it appalling that PS and ALL my graphic/video apps run flawlessly and a glorified browser can’t cut the muster.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 23, 2008
I can’t comment on CS4, but I can’t run Bridge(CS3) on my box.

You only quoted part of the sentence beginning:

Bridge still has a long way to go before it is really the tool it has to be for users

which changed the meaning of the whole sentence as originally posted.

There is a free trial version of CS4 available — you will find CS4, and especially Bridge CS4, to be an entirely different animal from CS3.

You might want to take the trouble to actually TRY CS4 before being disparaging about it.
-macman
Nov 23, 2008
Huh? There is nothing wrong with the quote; it was correct in the context that it was used.

You might want to take the trouble to actually TRY CS4 before being disparaging about it.

Forgive me, but where, exactly am I being disparaging about CS4?
L
LRK
Nov 23, 2008
Sounds like you know what you’re doing, Linda. Fair enough! Good Luck in ferreting out the discrepancies…

Thank you Macman. I will probably just keep working around the problems I can and avoid the rest. I think trouble-shooting should be my middle name since it seems to be part of my regular routine. Maybe it’s another one of God’s ways to keep me humble. 😉
-macman
Nov 23, 2008
Maybe it’s another one of God’s ways to keep me humble

”Oh Lord its hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way.”

– Mac Davis… <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLxNbEuOO20>

🙂
L
LRK
Nov 23, 2008
”Oh Lord its hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way.”

Exactly! LOL… and even a ROTF with that one. 8)

Loved the Mac Davis clip.
L
LRK
Nov 23, 2008
I seem to remember you could Command-Option drag on a selected slice with the Slice Select Tool and it would drag a copy of the slice to a new position. Seems to be gone with PSCS4.
L
LRK
Nov 24, 2008
Positive Report:

Must say that, apart from the Bridge issues, since I ran DiskWarrior, and then reinstalled CS4, etc. etc. etc. PS is really snappy. Even the problem with Save for Web has gone away. It’s immediate, and that’s with my larger layered files.
R
Ram
Nov 24, 2008
Did you ever give Preferential Treatment a chance?

<http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/22790>
C
Cindy
Nov 24, 2008
I just tried that Ramon. Everything checked out ok. Thanks for the link.
L
LRK
Nov 24, 2008
Did you ever give Preferential Treatment a chance?

Thank you for reminding me. It slipped my mind. I’ll try it and let you know.
L
LRK
Nov 24, 2008
I downloaded and ran Preferential Treatment. Everything seems to check out fine. But then I did trash a lot of my own preferences when I was trouble shooting. This should be a very handy app for future use. Thank you Ramón.
L
LRK
Nov 24, 2008
Good News!

Got some advice in the Bridge Forum that solved the Output Panel Refresh problem. Quoted below for those who might happen to be following with the same problem. It all has to do with Opera, and downloading the update solved it.

Kathy Guo – 6:07pm Nov 23, 08 PST (#4 of 5)
Adobe Photoshop Quality Engineer <http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?14@@.59b71737/3>

Adobe Photoshop Quality Engineer Please check if you have Opera installed. Cleanup the Opera cache and upgrade to Opera 9.62 should fix this problem. For the email link, if you click the ‘Contact Name’ in your generated web gallery, your default mail client will open with the email link in the sender box.
R
Ram
Nov 24, 2008
The Opera issue has been discussed an awful lot lately in the Bridge forum. I would have thought you knew about it already.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 24, 2008
I have to admit that I had totally forgotten about the Opera issue (probably because I hadn’t run into it personally) when Linda and I were trouble-shooting her System at the weekend.
R
Ram
Nov 24, 2008
The Opera issue affected even previous versions of Bridge.
L
LRK
Nov 24, 2008
The Opera issue has been discussed an awful lot lately in the Bridge forum. I would have thought you knew about it already.

Sorry about that. I had unsubscribed to the Bridge Forum for quite some time. I only just subscribed again after the CS4 upgrade.

Glad that problem is solved though. Thanks for all the input. And Ann… Thank you for the phone call and generous amount of time you spent trying to help me get to the bottom of this. You are a good friend!

Linda
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 24, 2008
The Opera issue hadn’t bitten me (almost certainly because I was, by chance, up to date with the Opera upgrades) so although we realised that something was causing a conflict on Linda’s system, it completely slipped my mind that Opera could be the culprit.

The important thing is that she has finally got it working!
R
Ram
Nov 24, 2008
I never experienced the Opera issue, and I also kept Opera up to date.
C
Cindy
Nov 24, 2008
Why does anyone use Opera?
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 24, 2008
Probably just to test web sites that they are constructing — in case one of their client’s customers should be using it.

However, Opera is not a great browser and is not color managed.

Bridge uses a special version of Opera in its under-pinnings but you don’t need to have the consumer version of Opera on your computer to use Bridge

If you do have Opera installed, you must make sure that you are using the latest version — v.9.6.2.
R
Ram
Nov 24, 2008
Cindy,

Why does anyone use Opera?

Mostly because Apple includes it in all new Macs (or used to) and there have been hints that other applications may call on it. Bridge has its own hidden copy of Opera buried in the bowels of the package.

That’s why I keep the copy in my Applications folder up to date, just in case, even though I don’t really use it. :/
C
Cindy
Nov 24, 2008
Ok, here is the dumb question: why does Bridge need it?

I don’t suppose it matters. 🙂
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 25, 2008
Bridge does NOT need Opera (the downloadable version).

Bridge just incorporates and uses some of the Opera code inside the application itself.

I don’t know exactly what it uses the code for — perhaps to display Previews for galleries, PDFs and just image files in general?

[If you open the Bridge "Package", you will see "Opera.app" lurking inside a "Mac OS" folder.]

DON’T fiddle with it!
🙂

There is nothing to be concerned about — providing that you don’t keep out of date versions of the downloadable Opera Browser on your System.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
DON’T fiddle with it!

Okay…:)
L
LRK
Nov 25, 2008
Cindy,

I generally use Opera as the final browser to test a new website. Generally if there is something that might be weird in someone else’s browser, particularly on a Windows platform, I find the same problem seems to show up in Opera.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
That might be helpful for me Linda. I keep a PC booted up just to check IE on Windows XP. I have not been willing to put Windows on my MacPro. Why mess up a good thing?

Thanks for the idea. I will check that out.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
Follow-up:

Linda, sorry to disappoint but IE finds things that Opera does not. I am having more problems with things that work on every browser except IE 7. Viewing on that latest version is a must.

My PC is located across the room. 🙁 I did not start having problems until IE 7 came out and thanks to a customer who kept seeing things that I didn’t I had to get a PC (I got it for free since I refuse to actually buy a PC) that would boot the latest versions of IE. No way around it.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 25, 2008
Another Browser that you might want to have available for testing purposes only (because it is not color-managed) is Camino.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
Nothing seems to give me the errors IE 7 does. Microsoft writes its own da*n rules.
NT
Nini Tj
Nov 25, 2008
Ramón, apple does not and never has included Opera on any new Macs.
R
Ram
Nov 25, 2008
It was on mine, Nini.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 25, 2008
I generally use Opera as the final browser to test a new website. Generally if there is something that might be weird in someone else’s browser, particularly on a Windows platform, I find the same problem seems to show up in Opera.

Opera renders differently than MSIE. MSIE is the most used browser. Why not use MSIE to do that final test (or any test prior)?

I have not been willing to put Windows on my MacPro. Why mess up a good thing?

You don’t have to run Windows to run MSIE. MSIE can run on Mac OS/Intel with a very minor bit of tinkering.

<http://www.kronenberg.org/ies4osx/>
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
You don’t have to run Windows to run MSIE. MSIE can run on Mac OS/Intel with a very minor bit of tinkering.

That possibility looks exciting. But reading the page looks like it could potentially cause problems. Can I get out of it again if I do this?

After reading more carefully the site, it is IE 6 and not IE 7.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 25, 2008
From the page… "Once you’re done with IE, drag it to the trash, and it’s gone."

I’ve run the Linux installer for this < http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Does_IEs_4_Linux_Wo rk_with_Mac_OSX> (which is what ies4osx is derived). The current beta of ies4linux includes IE7 rendering (but not the full browser).

Keep in mind that OSX is just a BSD system that can do a whole lot more than what Apple gives you in the shiny package. The kronenberg.org site can offer you an easy Darwine package on which you should be able to install ies4linux from the original site <http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page> on top.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
What about the Darwine 1.1.9 package it has you install. There would be no getting rid of that, right?
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
Do I want to install X11?

Sorry for all the questions but this has me nervous. It really would be nice to run IE 7 on my machine but I do not know too much about the platform OSX runs on. I don’t want to mess up anything.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 25, 2008
You’d install X11 if you are running 10.4 and have not done so already (also grab the update < http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple/macosx_updates/x 11update2006113.html>). X11 is already part of 10.5.

It has been a while since I went through this so I cannot recall how the Darwine installer works. I may not have even used the Darwine installer from kronenberg.org (using another Wine installer instead). It may be possible to run the installer a second time to uninstall, if you wish.

I don’t want to mess up anything

At worst, you’d just be taking up a few MB of space on your hard drive. X11, Wine, etc… do not affect other processes on the Mac. They are environments that run on top. The only thing to fear is if you already have X11 or Wine installed and you overwrote your already up-to-date X11 and Wine installation/settings.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
The only thing to fear is if you already have X11 or Wine installed and you overwrote your already up-to-date X11 and Wine installation/settings.

Since OSX was already installed on this machine, how do I find out if I would be doing that?
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
(also grab the update)

I just attempted to install this update and it said my "system does not need this update". I guess that means it is there.
L
LRK
Nov 25, 2008
Opera renders differently than MSIE. MSIE is the most used browser. Why not use MSIE to do that final test (or any test prior)?

I have not been willing to put Windows on my MacPro. Why mess up a good thing? You don’t have to run Windows to run MSIE. MSIE can run on Mac OS/Intel with a very minor bit of tinkering.

<http://www.kronenberg.org/ies4osx/>

Jim, Thanks for this info and link.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
Backing up my system now.

And yes, thank you VERY much for this. I hope it works.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
Linda, I think an Intel machine is required for this to run.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 25, 2008
It is.

The only version of MS Internet Explorer which will run on a G5 is the old IE v.6.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
This will save me from the last bit of exercise I get….walking from one computer to another. No seriously, it is quite a pain having to check everything on a PC.

Still backing up. Can’t wait to see.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
Ann, why is the version that came with this Mac is 5.2? I didn’t think there was a v.6.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 25, 2008
You are right: v.5.2.3 to be precise.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
I am installing IE 6 now. It sure is doing a lot to my system 😉
B
Bernie
Nov 25, 2008
Why not use <http://browsershots.org/>
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
Why not use <http://browsershots.org/>

It takes 30 minutes in cue just to view it??? Nah.

I just opening my web page in question with IE 6. No way is it like what I would see on a PC. It does not read CSS correctly at all. Oh well. Now if I could just uninstall all this junk of my hd.
C
Cindy
Nov 25, 2008
Why not use <http://browsershots.org/>

Queue estimate: 15 minutes to 19 minutes.
Expires in 19 minutes

Anyone working on a website would go broke doing this. Not a viable option.

I’m answering myself now…Sorry folks.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 26, 2008
Did you have a full back-up before you got caught-up in this mess Cindy?

Can you Super-Duper back to it?
C
Cindy
Nov 26, 2008
Yeah. Do you think I should? All I think I really installed was X11 and Explorer 6. Darwin something or other.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Nov 26, 2008
Is your System still stable?

On the other hand, if you don’t need that stuff for anything, why keep it?
C
Cindy
Nov 26, 2008
Its stable. But I think I will get rid of it…
L
LRK
Nov 26, 2008
I think something has quit working after the updates yesterday. When you Option-Click on a Layer for visibility, it no longer hides all the other layers. It doesn’t do anything.

I wonder if someone else could test it on their end to see if it’s working.

I have a Smart Object on the bottom with adjustment layers and some merged layers on top.
L
LRK
Nov 26, 2008
Another problem: I can’t select the actual layer masks. I can Shift-Click to hide them, but can’t select the masks to work on them.

Still another problem: Can’t convert it from 16-bit to 8-bit.

I tried quitting PS and restarting with Command-Option to reset the preferences, but still didn’t fix these problems.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 26, 2008
To finish up the ies4osx diversion…

I just looked at the current ies4osx installer and noticed it lacks what a previous version offered < http://macapper.com/2007/11/29/ies4osx-run-internet-explorer -567-natively-in-os-x/>. IE7 is no longer bundled and the link in this article points to a removed file. If one really wants to get IE7, they might email kronenberg.org to see if they still have that package available.

Removal is not too difficult.

If you used kronenberg.org’s packages, just delete the Darwine and the ‘tricks’ app from your Applications folder. Then search for and delete the ‘wine’ folder it installed (you may have to turn all file visibility on for this). The wine folder will have contents similar to a Windows system (a ‘C’ hard drive folder, a ‘Program Files’ folder, etc).
L
LRK
Nov 26, 2008
Regarding Post 368: My bad. I didn’t realize I had started Quick Mask and never painted on it so it looked normal. Once I got out of Quick Mask everything worked. So relieved!
C
Cindy
Nov 26, 2008
If one really wants to get IE7, they might email kronenberg.org

I did actually write him last night and he was nice enough to answer me this morning. Here is his answer:

"yes, the current ies4osx does not install all of the web corefonts. I’m currently putting finishing touches to a new version, that will include all core fonts and IE7 again. It will take one or two more days to finish."

I am looking forward to it.
C
Cindy
Nov 26, 2008
If one really wants to get IE7, they might email kronenberg.org

One other thing he did mention is that I should not remove X11 as "it is part of Apples OS X, and might be used by other apps".

Does anyone have an opinion on that? I never install it as I figure its just more bloat.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 26, 2008
If you just installed X11 yesterday then there should be no other dependencies on it and you could remove it if you really feel the need. X11 is part of OSX 10.5 but was an optional installation in 10.4. If you are going to try IE7 when he has it ready, you will still need X11.

I never install it as I figure its just more bloat.

I thought you did install it as noted in a previous post. Perhaps not installing everything as noted on the ies4osx instruction page is why you had a difference in CSS rendering with your actual Windows PC. IE6/7 on Mac renders the same as IE6/7 on Windows on my end.
C
Cindy
Nov 26, 2008
I thought you did install it as noted in a previous post.

No, I thought it was installed because when I attempted the upgrade it said I did not need it. I later found I needed to install it and did.

As far as it rendering fonts, as I stated in a previous post, this was his reply:

"yes, the current ies4osx does not install all of the web corefonts. I’m currently putting finishing touches to a new version, that will include all core fonts and IE7 again. It will take one or two more days to finish."
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Nov 26, 2008
I believe his Darwine package installs those core fonts if you try the ‘Wine tricks’ application that comes in the Darwine download.
C
Cindy
Nov 26, 2008
I believe his Darwine package installs those core fonts if you try the ‘Wine tricks’ application that comes in the Darwine download.

I did have Wine installed. It does not really matter because until he provides IE 7 instead of 6 it is of no use to me. I am optimistic however that this is close at hand. I will be VERY happy if it works.
L
LRK
Dec 4, 2008
I am quite disturbed at the changes in Flash CS4. I don’t have time to figure out why Adobe changed the way imported QT videos are rendered but it’s all different now. I’m going back to CS3 until I have time to find out what and why things have changed.
C
Cindy
Dec 4, 2008
That is kind of how I feel about Dreamweaver Linda. I went back to DW CS3.
L
LRK
Dec 4, 2008
Cindy, I’m going back to DWCS3 too… and still use GLCS2 along with it.
C
Cindy
Dec 4, 2008
DWCS4 did force me to expand my CSS but when I am in a hurry I just don’t have time to fool around with the changes. I don’t like some of the changes.
L
LRK
Dec 15, 2008
Somehow PSCS4 has reduced performance since I first installed it, quite a bit really. Not sure if it’s related to one of the updates I ran or the video card issue I had last week.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Dec 16, 2008
Did you run DiskWarrior, Cocktail and Repair Permissions after the installing the new software this time?
L
LRK
Dec 16, 2008
I’m pretty sure I did all of the above. Haven’t reinstalled CS3, etc. yet though.
JJ
John Joslin
Dec 16, 2008
Did you run DiskWarrior, Cocktail and Repair Permissions after the installing the new software this time?

Are you saying that course of action is advisable every time a program is installed?
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
JJ,

Only the latter part:

…and Repair Permissions after the installing the new software this time

Repair Permissions is advisable before and after installing any software or update.

A prime example of an installer that leaves stuff with incorrect permissions is Adobe’s Flash Player installer. In general, Adobe’s installers, updaters and auto updaters are a "huge embarrassment to all of us [Adobe staff], in the words of John Nack, now promoted to Photoshop Principal Program Manager.

Apple’s updates also often leave things incorrectly.
JJ
John Joslin
Dec 16, 2008
OK, just curious. Thanks.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Dec 16, 2008
I’ve gotta back up Ann on this vicious dispute between Ramon and Ann. 🙂 Ramon has it all wrong. How do you repair permissions to correct the effects of Adobe’s installers or Apple’s updates (as Ramon otherwise perfectly put it) before they are installed?

When you run an installer, you provide it administrative rights to modify any file. So why would you need to bother with fixing permissions for an installation process that does not care about them? It is lunacy. Check the Apple support documents to question why Ramon is so adamant about doing things the hard way. Mac is not as difficult as he tries to make it. He has a fundamental misunderstanding of what permissions are.

Of course he will argue this as he has each time we tell him he is dead wrong about repairing permissions prior to giving a process admin control.
B
Buko
Dec 16, 2008
Jim why do you always try to pick a fight with everyone?

You fix permissions on the OS so the install goes as it should then you fix permissions after just incase any were changed. That is common sense.
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
Jim why do you always try to pick a fight with everyone?

He must desperately need the attention, as all emotionally crippled social outcasts do.
L
LRK
Dec 16, 2008
I saw a smiley… I hope there’s enough love here for a little benefit of the doubt, especially since I like all of you… and I dislike fighting. 🙂
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
LRK,

That’s it. No more dealing with you. (No smiley.)
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Dec 16, 2008
Buko, are you trying to fight for no reason? You just said that:

you fix permissions after just incase any were changed

What is your problem? Grow up.

We all know that permissions are repaired after something is broken by an installer. You cannot repair what is not yet broken prior to an install. How are folks so clueless? Why are you arguing what Apple has clearly stated?

And for goodness sake, why are you arguing with Ann?!!!
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Dec 16, 2008
You fix permissions on the OS so the install goes as it should

For clarity, this is the same nonsense from Ramon.

If you give an installer your administrative password to affect all files on your system, why would you need to repair permissions that it is going to ignore anyway?

Have you two any clue what you are doing when you alter or repair permissions? These past comments from Ramon and Buko are crazy. You are welcome to repair permissions 24/7 but don’t pretend that you are helping anyone else by advising pointless repair prior to an administrative process that ignores permissions anyway.
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
Having had occasion to see permissions actually being repaired by Apple’s Disk Utility on various obscure files on a few occasions before installing or updating software despite the fact the permissions were repaired after the last prior installation, I do not guidance —much less permission— from anyone to continue advising others to repair permissions before and after an install.

The hysterical rants from a certain obsessed individual from Ohio notwithstanding.

Adobe’s installers are pathetic. They need all the help they can get.
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
😀 Here we go again:

I still advocate Repairing Permissions (with Apple’s Disk Utility) before AND after any system update or upgrade, as well as before AND after installing any software that requires an installer that asks for your password.

I have seen software installations go sour because the installer did not find everything as and where it should be.

I have also seen software installations go bad because the installer did not clean up after itself properly and did not leave everything as and where it should be.

This is just my own personal opinion and practice based on my own observations. Others may disagree and that’s OK. I can only base my routines and my advice to others on my own experience and conclusion. I don’t pretend to know why others believe otherwise.

Repairing Permissions after the fact (i. e. not immediately before and after an install) may NOT help. Try it anyway, though.

====

Additionally, if your machine does not run 24/7 so that it runs the daily, weekly and monthly Cron Scripts in the middle of the night as intended by Apple, run Cocktail (shareware) as well.

Cron Scripts are maintenance routines designed by Apple to run on a daily, weekly and monthly basis in the middle of the night.

If you don’t run them, you WILL run into trouble, sooner rather than later.

Here’s an excerpt from the Apple tech doc <http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107388>

Mac OS X performs background maintenance tasks at certain times if the computer is not in sleep mode. If your computer is shut down or in sleep at the designated times, the maintenance does not occur. In that case, you may want or need to run these manually.
Mac OS X periodically runs background tasks that, in part, remove system files that are no longer needed. This includes purging older information from log files or deleting certain temporary items. These tasks do not run if the computer is shut down or in sleep mode. If the tasks do not run, it is possible that certain log files (such as system.log) may become very large.
Also, from: <http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106978>

The disk activity generated by find is a normal part of file system maintenance, used for tasks such as removing invisible temporary files that are used by the system. It is scheduled to occur early in the morning at 03:15 everyday, 04:30 on Saturdays, and 05:30 on the first day of each month.

NOTE: There have been comments to the effect that Apple "fixed" this in 10.4.2 and later versions of the OS, but I have not been able to verify this to my satisfaction. The reference in the 10.4.2 release notes are far from explicit on this subject.

= = =

If you have DiskWarrior, run it regularly too.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Dec 16, 2008
I do not guidance —much less permission— from anyone to continue advising others to repair permissions before and after an install.

….Nor do we need to put up with the incessant bad advice from a closet Windows user that still has not grasped what permissions are.

If your system requires permission repair before you give an installer admin access to install files anywhere it pleases, your system is severely mismanaged. Permission repair is the least of your worries.
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
Example of Disk Utility log, just to illustrate the kind of permissions that may need repair and how they are actually repaired (notice it’s not just about "ownership" of files):

Mac OS X Version 10.4.11 (Build 8S165)
2008-12-13 03:33:00 -0800
2008-12-13 03:33:03.431 SystemUIServer[243] lang is:en
2008-12-13 03:33:11.214 SecurityFixer[248] No insecure startup items found! Workaround Bonjour: Unknown error: 0

* ********* Disk Utility started.

Repairing permissions for “Macintosh HD”
Determining correct file permissions.
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_center.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_center.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_center.png
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_center_pressed.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_center_pressed.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_center_pressed.png
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_left.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_left.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_left.png
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_left_pressed.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_left_pressed.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_left_pressed.png
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_right.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_right.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_right.png
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_right_pressed.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_right_pressed.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/Dialog/button_right_pressed.png
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_bottom.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_bottom.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_bottom.png
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_mid.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_mid.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_mid.png
Permissions differ on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_top.png, should be -rwxr-xr-x , they are -rw-r–r–
Owner and group corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_top.png
Permissions corrected on ./System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/Resources/Wi dgets.wdgt/Images/scroll_bar_top.png
Permissions differ on ./private/var/log/secure.log, should be -rw——- , they are -rw-r—– Owner and group corrected on ./private/var/log/secure.log Permissions corrected on ./private/var/log/secure.log
The privileges have been verified or repaired on the selected volume

Permissions repair complete

Repairing permissions for “Macintosh HD”
Determining correct file permissions.

Permissions repair complete

The privileges have been verified or repaired on the selected volume
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
It’s the windozer in Ohio that hasn’t grasped what permissions mean in the Mac world.
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
Your filthy mouth spouted the same nonsense in another thread, Oblak.

Having bought a DVD burning laptop as the cheapest way of acquiring a device to burn DVDs in the field does NOT make me a "windoze user", "closet" or otherwise.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Dec 16, 2008
Okay, I’ll bite at this stupidity. Ramon, why do you need to set PNG files to be executable? They are neither programs nor scripts. They are image files. You understand what ‘-rwxr-xr-x’ means, right? The previous permissions were right. Your permission repair in this log is pointless, like your advice to repair prior to an administrative process.
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
Anyone genuinely interested in why Apple needs to do anything can ask Apple.

I’m not here to explain or to teach anything. I have no delusions of being an educator. I offer workarounds, solutions and suggestions that have proven useful and successful in the past. I have no vocation or ambition as a teacher.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Dec 16, 2008
But the solution/suggestion you have just offered makes absolutely no sense. Why do you want your PNG files to be executable? That opens the door for a malicious PNG file to be loaded in your dock or widget and then executed. Why would you welcome that, especially when there is a history of an exploit with png exploits on OSX <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/28770>? You’ve just opened the door to vulnerabilities by performing a useless permission repair. Apple did not tell you to repair those permissions. They gave you a log of what you could do and then Apple gave you an option to choose whether to apply the changes (unless you blindly repair permissions without first checking them).
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Dec 16, 2008
Jim Oblak:

If you had actually bought and installed the CS4 Design Premium Suite on a Mac, and run Repair Permissions after doing the installation, you would have seen the list of items that were repaired.

Your knowledge of both Photoshop and of MacOSX seems to be fairly basic and theoretical and based more on Tech sheets that you have read instead of on any real practical experience.

What I fail to understand, is your interminable insistence on butting-in to threads where you have nothing to offer in the way of help (such as this one) with the sole purpose of planting red herrings and causing disruption.
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
When one runs Applejack, it’s amazing the stuff that gets cleaned out and repaired. Disk Utility falls short in comparison.
B
Buko
Dec 16, 2008
What I fail to understand, is your interminable insistence on butting-in to threads where you have nothing to offer in the way of help (such as this one) with the sole purpose of planting red herrings and causing disruption.

Well said.
JJ
Jim_Jordan
Dec 16, 2008
Ann, I returned to this insanely lengthy thread in support of your previous comment that permissions are repaired after an install. If you are now arguing with your previous comment which I supported, please indicate such so the rest of us can make sense of the twisted mess in your head.

It is with my limited but perfectly valid experience with OSX permissions that I can recognize the stupidity of 1) giving executable permission to PNG image files and 2) running a repair of permissions immediately before an administrative process that ignores them anyway.
R
Ram
Dec 16, 2008
We are all guilty of feeding the troll. As a video maker he’s lousy, but he certainly excels as a troll.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Dec 16, 2008
Right!!!

8/
L
LRK
Dec 16, 2008
LRK,

That’s it. No more dealing with you. (No smiley.)

I’m sorry to hear that. Your call Ramon.
R
Ram
Dec 17, 2008
Yes, it is. I won’t have anything to do with anybody who likes Oblak.
R
Ram
Dec 17, 2008
Talking about whom, anyone who does not understand the functions of the animated PNGs residing deep within the entrails of the Dock package that give life to the buttons, scroll bars, carpets, etc., only makes a jackass of himself when he presumes to lecture others about permissions on the Mac. Not only a totally obnoxious jerk and a lousy video producer, but also a bigmouth without a clue as to the Mac OS, all of which he has amply demonstrated himself.

[No, I won’t explain it to him either.]
JJ
John Joslin
Dec 17, 2008
Well it’s a new day, the sun is shining, maybe we could have a little peace too.
L
LRK
Dec 17, 2008
I don’t follow all the forum threads anymore, for lack of time, so I have not been a part of some of the adversarial issues that seem to have caused soreness between this member.

I can only say that Jim Jordan really saved my neck last week in the GoLive forum as it turned out a couple of my client’s websites were hacked with malicious code. Jim was kind enough to walk me through the process of identifying the problem, correcting it, and communicating properly with the hosting company to make sure they did their part to clean up and secure the servers.

I am most grateful for this assistance.
-macman
Dec 17, 2008
I won’t have anything to do with anybody who likes Oblak

LOL!

Linda, I wouldn’t worry about it. His lose, your gain.

Fact is, if he follows up on his threat (doubtful) over half the forum would gladly trade places with you. 😉

Happy Holidays!
L
LRK
Dec 17, 2008
Hi MacMan,

I always appreciate your encouragement and I wish you happy holidays as well.

Ramon has also been helpful at times, and for that I’m grateful as well. Guess I’m just not good at being or staying angry. I dislike trouble and have a tendency to try to solve problems, although there have been times when my lack of wisdom contributed to them. Ramon’s reaction to me is his call and I will respect that.

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