Hard Drive – External vs Internal

ML
Posted By
Marty Landolt
Apr 1, 2004
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1044
Replies
40
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Closed
Joe, Ed, Brent, All food for thought. I am about ready to say … External now and Internal next year. That will at least give me a start. I hope my budget holds out till then.
Thanks so much for giving me lots of things helpful to making a decision. Marty

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CS
Chuck_Snyder
Apr 2, 2004
Gary, I recently added an external drive. I didn’t have a USB 2.0 port, but after reading the instructions that came with the drive, I knew there was no choice but to add the port. Fortunately, that’s a relatively cheap addition; believe I got a 5-port card for about $30 US.

Chuck
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 2, 2004
Chuck, Yes, I’ll be getting a 5 port at a good price too. That’s one decision I’ve made … now for the other umteen, oh my head is whirling.
Marty
DS
Dick_Smith
Apr 2, 2004
Chuck,

I picked up a 2.0 card and it wouldn’t install on my machine, what brand of 5 port card did you get?

dick
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 2, 2004
Dick, My 5 card USB ports is CompUSA. The ‘in home’ service man will install it. Can I ask you a question, oh well here goes …
What is the firewire port? I might have to get one for the Movie software. Marty
DS
Dick_Smith
Apr 2, 2004
Marty,

Firewire is another kind of "usb" system. As I recall it was developed in the MAC world before being introduced to the PC world. The specifications for Firewire and USB would seem to indicate that FW is faster than USB but it is guarnteed to spark a discussion amongst users. Some peripherals are made exclusively for FW and others just for USB and some, naturally, for both. My Maxtor external HD can use either.

Don’t know if this helps or not and I am sure thare is someone with more accurate FW info lurking out there somewhere.

Dick
CS
Chuck_Snyder
Apr 2, 2004
Dick, I don’t know what brand – bought off the rack at CompUSA. Are you running XP?
DS
Dick_Smith
Apr 2, 2004
Yes, I am.
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 2, 2004
Dick, I just ordered my software and asked about firewire capture and card. He said to wait until I got the digital camera … some need it and some don’t.
I have chosen the external hard drive and later might get an internal. I am getting back into the ‘movies’ world.
They did say I should get a PCI card to run the movies more smoothly and at a better speed. Thanks for all the help … don’t know what I’d do without this forum. Gone are the days when salesmen know their merchandise (or can be trusted with their recommended products).
Marty
JH
Joe_Henry1000
Apr 2, 2004
Marty,

As Dick mentioned Firewire, aka IEEE 1394, is just another specification/protocol for connecting peripheral devices to your computer. Firewire actually comes in 2 flavors: Firewire 400 (IEEE 1394a) and Firewire 800 (IEEE 1394b). The numbers just denote the transfer rate each is capable of in Mbps (megabits per second). Firewire 400 (Sony calls Firewire iLink BTW) debuted first a few years ago and FW 800 last year. Just to give you an idea of what these speed numbers mean, if you were using FW 800 you can transfer an entire CD of data every 10 seconds.

USB 2.0 actually has a top speed of 480Mbps but most people find FW 400 to be a little faster because it doesn’t share resources with other buses (data paths) like USB 2.0 does. FW 800 tends to actually be more than twice as fast as USB 2 for the same reason.

If you plan to do much with digital video, you’ll definitely want to take a look at adding a FW card as long as the camcorder you own has a FW port. Most newer camcorders tend to have FW ports and it’s (FW) quickly becoming the standard.

The real promise of Firewire is when we start seeing devices capable of the high end 1394b range: 3.2Gbps! Thats a lot of bits!

One other difference between USB and FW is that FW is capable of charging batteries in the device it’s connected to. Very handy and eliminates the need for an additional power cable.

For more info, check out Apple’s Firewire page <http://www.apple.com/firewire> (that’s were I got a lot of this info) and the 1934 Trade Association’s <http://www.1394ta.org> web site.

Joe
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 2, 2004
Joe, What an education! Honestly I still would get a D- so I hope you are still around and kicking when I have to decide which … hopefully Spring 2005.
Marty
JH
Joe_Henry1000
Apr 2, 2004
Marty,

so I hope you are still around and kicking when I have to decide which

Not more then me! 😉

Joe
RR
Raymond Robillard
Apr 3, 2004
Joe,

Your explanations are just fantastic! I’d just like to add that USB is also capable of charging batteries (Palm devices use this on laptop, for example, using a dedicated portable charging + hotsync cable). However, because USB devices share the same pipe, sometimes the current is not high enough (getting divided with, say, a cordless mouse, a keyboard, a web cam, etc.)

USB hubs, those having their own power adaptor, are better at this, but still, they’re not the best. Sometimes, the current they provide isn’t high enough for every devices connected. You’ll get the first sign of trouble when, for example, you fire up the web cam, and no image show up, or it does for a short time, then the cam is reported as being disconnected by Windows (or Mac).

From past experience, I don’t charge anything on USB. I simply use the dedicated power adapter of my Palm.

Ray
DN
DS_Nelson
Apr 3, 2004
I’ve lost track of who’s buying what in this thread, but just FYI, it’s fairly easy to find PCI cards that have both USB 2.0 and firewire ports on them.
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 3, 2004
DS, Thanks for jumping in. The PCI card I ordered was recommended by the Movie Software people so I went with it at around $45.
I haven’t fooled with movies for a couple years so everything has changed. Marty
DS
Dick_Smith
Apr 3, 2004
Joe,

Thanks for your excellent explanation. I can never remember the transfer rates for the 4 protocols. Guess I don’t really need to, but you’ve got me thinking I might just opt for a FW card.

Dick
CS
Chuck_Snyder
Apr 3, 2004
Ray, I bought a power/hot sync cable for my Palm Zire 71 for use with my laptop when traveling; however, the battery in the Palm is so good that I haven’t had to recharge it yet while away from home. I’m going off for a week in California soon; maybe I’ll try it then.

Chuck
JH
Joe_Henry1000
Apr 3, 2004
Ray,

I’d just like to add that USB is also capable of charging batteries (Palm devices use this on laptop, for example,using a dedicated portable charging + hotsync cable). However, because USB devices share the same pipe, sometimes the current is not high enough (getting divided with, say, a cordless mouse, a keyboard, a web cam, etc.)

You’re totally right. I can’t believe that I, typing on a wireless keyboard and using a wireless mouse whose batteries get charged on a base station connected to a USB port, said that. The charger/base station is literally staring me right in the face (it’s perched on a shelf right above my monitor). I don’t know what I was thinking.

Dick,

As DS Nelson mentioned there are plenty of combo (Firewire/USB) cards out there. It might not be a bad idea to look into one of those. The only thing I use my Firewire port is for capturing video from my Sony DV camcorder so I’ve only ever used the one port (my Mac came with 2). When I get a new scanner, though, one of the criteria will be that it has a FW connection. My current scanner is just USB 1 and it can be really slow at times.

I’m actually looking at adding a Sweet Multiport <http://www.geethree.com/multiport/multiport.html> to my G4. This looks like a really slick card. Dick I can’t remember, are you running Windows or Mac? If you’re on Mac check this thing out.

Joe
RR
Raymond Robillard
Apr 3, 2004
Chuck,

Mine needs recharging every two or three days. I use the camera a lot (this consumes lots of energy), and I also play games on it, while commuting.

I’ve just tried the hotsync + charging cable on our way to the shopping mall, it works perfectly!

Ray
CS
Chuck_Snyder
Apr 3, 2004
Ray, I understand. If I played games on mine while I’m commuting, it would be a problem….I drive!!
🙂
BH
Beth_Haney
Apr 3, 2004
Joe, check that out very carefully before you buy. There was a thread on dealmac today either about the one you’ve linked or something very similar. What somebody finally figured out is that the device they were looking at doesn’t actually ADD any firewire capability, it just makes the existing firewire ports accessible from the front instead of the back. For somebody like me that might be OK, too, because it is a pain to have them in the rear. I just wanted to mention it so you can research and be sure of what you’re getting. There’s also a problem with deep sleep with added firewire ports. OWC Larry brought that up after someone was begging him to create something cool for unused drive bays.
CS
Chuck_Snyder
Apr 3, 2004
My desktop PC has a port labeled 1394 on the front, in addition to two USB
1.1 ports. I’ve never tried to use it; looks like it needs a different
cable and the device from which it would receive I/O would have to be compatible. As old as this computer is, I’m surprised it’s there, and I’d be more surprised if it really worked well….
BH
Beth_Haney
Apr 4, 2004
For some reason Apple really dragged their feet on the issue of adding ports to the front of towers. The G5s have them, but anything older than that doesn’t – like mine and Joe’s. Even my ancient eMachine has ports on the front!

What in the world is a 1394?
CS
Chuck_Snyder
Apr 4, 2004
Beth, I’ve been led to believe that a 1394 port is a Firewire port…..at least on a PC. But that’s all I know about it.
JH
Joe_Henry1000
Apr 4, 2004
Hi Beth,

doesn’t actually ADD any firewire capability, it just makes the existing firewire ports accessible from the front instead of the back.

This is sort of correct. The thing consists of a PCI FW/USB combo card (two of each), a ribbon cable and a card that slides in the front lower IDE bay. You install the PCI card and connect a cable from one of the Macs built in FW ports to the one on the card and you do the same with a USB port. Then the ribbon cable connects the PCI card to the card in the front. So you’re only gaining the two FW and 1 USB port on the front because you loose one of each on the back (net gain of one FW port).

The nice thing about it is you get the 5 in 1 memory card reader as well as Firewire and USB ports on the front. Very handy.
JH
Joe_Henry1000
Apr 4, 2004
Chucks right Beth, 1394 is short for IEEE-1394 which is the official name for Firewire and iLink.

Joe
BH
Beth_Haney
Apr 4, 2004
This must be a difference one than the link from earlier today. Maybe I’ll go back to the page you posted and take another look at it. I didn’t notice if it’d work in my MDD or not. But I just got a 5/1 card reader, so… 🙁

What about the deep sleep thing, do you have any info on that? I’d never used it until I got this computer, and now I rely on it a lot.
CS
Chuck_Snyder
Apr 4, 2004
Joe, you are definitely our Firewire expert! We’ll refer all questions on this topic to you!

🙂
JH
Joe_Henry1000
Apr 4, 2004
Hi Beth,

Yes, you can use this with your MDD G4. They do have a different model for the QuickSilver G4’s that doesn’t include the 5 in one card reader (just a microdrive connector and a compact flash slot). Apparently the bay beneath the optical drive wasn’t wide enough on the QS’s to accommodate all the slots.

The Multiport FAQ <http://www.geethree.com/support/supportsweet.html#Versions> says that "System Sleep" is supported. Is that the same as "Deep Sleep"? What is Deep Sleep anyway.

Chuck,

Joe, you are definitely our Firewire expert!

I wouldn’t go that far, but I’d be happy to answer what ever questions I can. Just like the rest of the fine folk who populate this board, yourself included.

I just happen to research FW quite a bit when it first came out and again when I bought my DV camcorder last year. I like to know what I’m getting into.

🙂

Joe
BH
Beth_Haney
Apr 4, 2004
Joe, as near as I can figure, "deep sleep" in the context in which it was being used referred to the hard drive spinning down. It seemed that "light sleep" (my term!) means just the display shutting down. I don’t guarantee that’s accurate, but I think it is. I know that OS 9.2.2 on my MDD won’t go to sleep with my USB (powered) hub plugged in, yet for some reason that doesn’t disturb naptime for OS X at all.
RR
Raymond Robillard
Apr 4, 2004
This is a bit off topic (as if this thread wasn’t enough off topic already!), but with a FireWire port on a computer and a camcorder that has a FireWire connector, one can actually connect say, a VCR, into the camcorder (with the supplied cables of the camcorder), and have the computer record the signal that’s getting through the camcorder via the FireWire port. Very handy to transfer those old VHS or Beta tapes to a DVD.

I don’t know if all camcorder can handle this procedure, but I bet a fair number can. I tried it once and it worked just fine. The trouble is getting either machine (VCR or computer) close to each other. A computer in the living room is fine *if* your computer is equiped with TV output capabilities (you need to see what’s happening on the computer to start recording). And a VCR is fine in the computer room *if* you have enough room + power outlets to connect it. If you try this at home, don’t put the VCR too close to the computer (30 cm / 12 inches at least), or don’t put the computer too close to the TV screen, especially if it’s a CRT one (60-90cm / 24 to 36 inches). The advantages of connecting the VCR to the camcorder in the computer room is that you’ll be using the movie preview window of your computer to see what’s playing on the VCR.

Ray
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 16, 2004
My original dilemma is solved. I have the External Hard drive. It’s in my nature to end up loving the "one" I decided to choose. The external has been a big boom to me in that I can move it to my old computer, do backups, then bring it back to my main computer and put the stuff on DVDs.
Marty
PD
Pete_D
Apr 16, 2004
Marty,

Do you know the write speed of your DVD burner? And how long does it take to burn say a gigabyte of data to the DVD? Or an entire DVD?

I was looking the other day at Office Max and they had 2x, 4x and an 8x write. But the 8x was a brand I did not know. Cheap I think, so it may be better to have the 2x HP. Either way CD’s just are not enough space anymore.

Pete
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 16, 2004
Pete, I have been struggling with backing up since last April, a whole year! Now I am in seventh heaven. This one was chosen by a knowledgeable salesman (not easy to find) at CompUSA. 8X …
Buslink DVD+/-RW/+/-R Drive.
On the box cover it has: DVD: Record DVD: ReWrite DVD: Read 8X: 4X: 12X
If that’s any help to you.

As for time … I’ll check timorrow when I burn another disk. I am getting back into movies so wanted a DVD drive that would handle those. Marty
PS I’m using Sony CVC+R 120 min 4.7 GB (says: speed compatible 1X-4X)
G
garyheaton
Apr 16, 2004
Hi Pete,
I have been burning DVD’s since the burners dropped down under $600..now you can get a good 8X burner for way under $200.
Memorex is suppose to be the fastest on the market, but most people use the Pioneer, or the Sony. Format is not a problem anymore, as all three burn either – or + DVDs. They all make a 8x drive as well, which is the smart way to go. Granted, 8x media is very had to find right now, but 4x has dropped down to about .78 cents each, and I have burned well over 200 of these disks with no coasters at all on my Pioneer burner. And when 8x media becomes common, you will already have the drive to burn it.
As for speed, a 4X will burn a full 4.5 gigs of data, (such as a movie back up) in about 15 minutes. An 8X should be able to do it in a little over 7 minutes. But exact times would depend on the drive.
If you do NOT have any dvd authoring software, then I would suggest that you go with a RETAIL version of the drive you choose, as oppose to a OEM model. As the retail models usually come with a set of burning software for DVDs. In fact I think the Memorex one comes with the FULL Roxio burning rom set now in fact..(most give you a more stripped down version of the software however)..but when you consider a good burner costs around $150 now, and that I paid $80 for Nero 6.0 Burning Rom just over a month ago..the REAL cost of the burner is not nearly as much as one would think, when you count in the software that comes with it.
PC mag did their latest test, and found the Sony 8X the *Best Buy for last month, I think it was anyway. It IS a good machine, but you should be happy with any brand name model.<smile>
good luck to you.
Gary~*
PD
Pete_D
Apr 16, 2004
you should be happy with any brand name model.<smile>

Gary,

Office Max had two on sale last week for $69 (Microadvantage and Pacific Digital) and an HP for $79. But the HP is only 2x write and the others were 4x and 8x?

I just want something to use 4 times a year for back up because I am using 15 CD’s backing up files and am not convinced that an external HD is the way to go. Besides this is a lot cheaper.

Pete
———————————————————— —————- ————–

Marty,

Thanks for the info. I will appreciate hearing about the time thing:) Pete
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 17, 2004
Pete, Sorry I didn’t get to the burning today, spent most the day copying 250 3 1/2 floppies. Gary covered all that I had found out.
It was said that the 8X is not a lot faster than the 4X but would still be the way to go for now and tomorrow.
Marty
ML
Marty Landolt
Apr 19, 2004
Pete, Gary says he can burn 4.5 gb in 15 min. I am now using TDK 4.7 gb disks. It just took near 45 minutes but subtract 5 or 10 minutes for my having to remove one file. I have USB 2 ports so don’t know why I can’t do it in less time.
Supposedly I had 4.4 gb ready to burn but 3/4 through I got the message that one file was too large … don’t know why it didn’t make the bar run into a second disk ?? Anyway, once I removed the file I put the original disk back in and all went just fine.
Now I am trying to list all the files, folders and sub folders on this DVD. (I think I’ll make a topic out of that)
Marty
G
garyheaton
Apr 19, 2004
Marty,
At that speed, your burning at 1X, not at 4x. It could be the disks you have will not burn at 4x in your burner, OR..it could be the software your using to burn them with. I tried pinnacle software for a while, and I could never get more than a 1X burn from that. That is why I went with NERO 6.0. It is also possible the software default setting is set to a 1x burn, instead of on AUTO, or a fixed 4X preset speed that you enter in yourself.
Those are just a few of the problems I had with a Sony buner that I owned first..I hope some of it helps.
Gary~*
PD
Pete_D
Apr 19, 2004
Thanks Marty,

Office max has that DVD writer on sale again this week so I may grab one. But now I see HP has a burner that is called a movie maker. It is external and has the audio and video jacks (as well as software I am guessing) to download video from a VHS player or camera and convert it to digital. About 4 times more than the $69 writer though.

Are you using DVD-R or DVD-RW? Maybe that is another difference in the speed of burning?

Pete
LM
Lou_M
Apr 19, 2004
Marty, did the message say you had one file that was too big or that all the files together were too big for one DVD?

DVDs are 4.7GB, but that’s really something like 4.3 billion bytes because of the "binary" thousand problem (gibibytes/gigabytes nonsense). (A kilobyte is 1024 bytes, not 1000 bytes, etc.)

So don’t try to put more than 4.3 gig on a DVD.

What software are you using to write to your DVD drive? And is there anything else on your USB ports (like a mouse/keyboard, external hard drive, scanner, etc.). Those could slow things down.

I have an external 4x DVD+R, 2.4x DVD+RW drive and it burns 4x DVD+R every time. It’s Firewire 400.

I also have a new Firewire 800 hard drive and that baby screams.

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