Not to pick on Apple, but there are *always* 1.0 kinks to workout with any software or hardware. Some obscure, some not. No v1.0 product is ever perfect.
By the time CS3 comes out, there will be newer, faster Mac Pros out. Heck, Intel’s quad core Cloverton MP is supposed to be out later this year. (Imagine *two* quad core chips in a Mac Pro!)
If Photoshop is your bread and butter, there’s no reason to get an Intel Mac now. Wait! Future computers will always be faster and cheaper.
Myself, I’m holding out until After Effects goes Universal Binary.
Learn how to optimize Photoshop for maximum speed, troubleshoot common issues, and keep your projects organized so that you can work faster than ever before!
If Photoshop is your bread and butter, there’s no reason to get an Intel Mac now. Wait!
The reason to get an Intel Mac now is if you need it. If Photoshop is your bread and butter and you are using a G4 it is now time to upgrade. If one has a good workable workflow now, then there is no reason to upgrade prior to CS3.
I think that’s BS on the hardware side, Navarro, I’ve had first gen versions of Mac hardware for the last 10 years (that’s 4 new first generation machines) right up to my G5 duelly 2 ghz and including a 266 G3 first edition that’s still running perfectly, I’ve never had a single problem with any of them.
Not to pick on Apple, but there are *always* 1.0 kinks to workout with any software or hardware. Some obscure, some not. No v1.0 product is ever perfect.
Although that is a truism of accepted wisdom and the basis for a prudently conservative course of action, in the case of the Mac Pro, against all odds, that concern might not be relevant. I’ll reiterate my observation that in the first three weeks of reports there have been no widespread flaws reported anywhere. Significant architecture flaws or hardware failures would have begun to crop up by now. They haven’t.
(Imagine *two* quad core chips in a Mac Pro!)
Imagine the extra heat and power consumption requiring more extensive and probably noisier cooling systems.
One can always imagine some problem that no one else has found. One can always imagine the next generation will be so much better that… There will always be faster and cheaper computers. For some of us now is a prudent time to essay into the future of Macs, for some it isn’t.
I believe the Yikes G4s can be to blame for all this the second generation will have the bugs worked out attitude. its the once bitten twice shy thinking.
IMO the Mac Pros are not all that much of a "v1." MacIntels have been out since January running PSCS, Aperture, etc. very well in every box type other than the tower – and a tower is perhaps the easiest to make work. Playing the "Ooh, v1 let’s wait for v2, v1 versions suck" game IMO is not appropriate for the Mac Pros.
I’ve had no issues whatsoever with my Mac Pro 2.66. It’s fast, extremely quiet and haven’t any problems connecting to FW hard drives/devices (some almost 4 years old). I even have XP loaded on a separate disk and while it was somewhat of a pain to do, the workaround SATA fix works perfectly. This is actually the first Mac I’ve purchased that’s been in current production and I couldn’t be happier with it.
The only nitpick I have isn’t really about the machine, it’s that compatible RAM prices are a moving target right now. I purchased a 2x512MB kit at Crucial on Friday a.m. for $193 and today the same kit is $299. I think it’s wise to hold on a large RAM purchase until the price comes down and stabilizes.
Not to pick on Apple, but there are *always* 1.0 kinks to workout with any software or hardware. Some obscure, some not. No v1.0 product is ever perfect.
There are "kinks" in EVERY product if you frequent any message board. Some are real, most are attributable to user error. You have to remember to allow for the signal to noise ratio.
I can hardly wait. I also have to consider where to buy. I can walk into a Frys or an Apple store and buy a stock Mac Pro…..and pay tax. Or, I can order online, pay no tax, free shipping if I am willing to wait or expited shipping for half the tax money. Plus, if I buy locally I can always return it for an immediate replacement.
There is something to be said for purchasing from an Apple store. If you get a lemon it is an instant replacement… more of a hassle when purchasing it from someone else although Amazon.com does provide replacement units and has a $150 online rebate just now.
That being said, I purchased from ExperCom.com (Utah) to avoid sales tax, free shipping, and they bundled an extra GB Apple RAM for $2,629. I figured a GB of RAM for $129 was worth it as it would give me enough to start. In time, I’ll end up with 6GB total but I wish to see what happens with the RAM prices for a bit. I placed my order last Thursday afternoon and it will arrive Tuesday. Pretty quick with the holiday and all.
I upgraded from a G4/733 to a Pro 2ghz two weeks ago, also moving from an old monitor to a 20" Cinema display and a cheap Dell LCD for palettes. No regrets here – this is the sytem I’ve dreamed of, a beautifully engineered setup, and the speed bump for me (migrating from such old hardware) was significant despite Rosetta.
I will say, though, that I’ve had some stability problems, primarily with the Adobe suite – InD or Photoshop unexpectedly quits, then the others start misbehaving in the same way. The only way to recover is a restart. I now watch free memory in Activity Monitor because I seem fine as long as the green zone occupies at least 1/4 of the circle. Anything less just about guarantees the eventual crash of a Rosetta application. (All my software, starting with the OS, was clean installed on hard disks that I formatted and zero’d; Photoshop has a dedicated 160gb internal SATA drive).
I think the problem is RAM – I have 2gb of ram on my setup, so the only advice I’d offer is to spend the extra $ and get a machine with 4gb. That should get you through the Rosetta phase of your transition.
I wonder if Joe used the migration application? That is notable for creating instability problems. The best way to go is to installing everything new, basically creating a new system, and not trying to migrate. They you can drag over all the files which don’t require system calls from the new operating system (user creations…images, music, and so forth.
Cindy, ExperCom is back up and running faster than ever. I suspect they took the holiday to work over their servers.
Sorry, Joe. I didn’t read carefully enough. Too busy just now but very interested in other people’s MacIntel experiences as my Mac Pro arrives in an hour or so…
Warning! If anybody is inclined to use ExperCom, don’t get the 2GB bundle! They put in generic FB Dimms with ‘regular’ heat spreaders, not Apple Spec Ram which has oversized heat sinks. In a dozen or more posts, people who tried out ‘normal’ FB Dimms (they are cheaper) found that there were ECC errors as the RAM heated up.
Before even plugging in my machine, I called ExperCom and customer service was very accommodating. I’m switching my ‘Bundle’ to the 3 years AppleCare for $2,577 and they are refunding the difference. As of now, only buy RAM from Apple, Ramjet, OWC, Crucial, or TransInternational.
Everyones experience is different. Some people never work over the network. I’ve done it for 10 or 15 years.
I’ve used migration assistant over 10 times. Its wonderful–it has same me so much time reentering serial numbers–really tedious stuff.
Other people may have used it once with lesser results. Toe me its worth it. Even if it screws up then you have to do a clean install as you would have had to do in the first place.
Not to pick on Apple, but there are *always* 1.0 kinks to workout with any software or hardware. Some obscure, some not. No v1.0 product is ever perfect.
A somewhat valid point but but not entirely true. Non the less, even a v1.2 or v2.0 can be imperfect.
So all relative and can’t be assumed.
In regards to the MacPros, so far they have been solid (based on a couple reports from close friends), is it possible for issues ? absolutely but based on current use and over all performance these are great v1.0’s
As far as the ram, the ram was designed by Intel specifically for the woodcrest chip. So, buying third party ram has to be well calculated and from a brand with very good track record, so the specificity of ram is in very much in part of Intel and it’s specs.
Quality RAM from quality vendors is as important as ever. Ignore those rules at your own peril.
Graphics users using Leopard and Mac towers will over time (IMO sooner rather than later) want more than 8 GB RAM on board.
Mac towers currently only have 8 RAM slots, 16 GB max accessible.
RAM = heat. Meaning that the lame RAM one buys at a bargain today may work today but flake a year from now when you add more RAM/heat.
Four or eight identically filled slots show substantial RAM performance improvement.
4 GB RAM already seems to be an appropriate minimum for pro Mac towers running graphics apps.
Folks should give substantial thought to the above realities when configuring pro towers. E.g. "Where will I want this box to be a year from now? Two years from now?"
I’ve come to the conclusion that if one is dependant on Adobe software for making a living, wait until Universal versions are released. I’ve just spent what seems like most of a week building up my Mac Pro system and testing applications. Just today I gave Photoshop a good workout and only had one crash when I tried to select and scale about 20 non-contiguous layers (including a couple of smart layers, a few adjustment layers, and two groups which had some layers turned off within them). Bingo…instant disappearing PS.
However I worked on a dozen images in the 50-100mb sizes without issue. Subjectively, PS was much faster than my old G-4, astonishingly so. I was particularly impressed that so many of my plugins worked real time rather than subjecting me to the delays which were just ‘normal’ usage in my old Mac. That did not hold true for the Digital Elements products Aurora 2 and Verdant. Those two seemed slower than I remembered but perhaps it is only by comparison to all the other plugins which have accelerated dramatically.
Personally, I am going to install Windows XP Pro, and run my Windows license of PS CS2 as well as a dozen other programs which are Windows only or will run beter unitl Universal Binaries are released for those programs (Vue5 Infinite comes to mind).
The net result is that I’m delighted with my decision to purchase a Mac Pro but understand that, particularly because software hasn’t caught up with the hardware, it is prudent for many professionals to wait. In short, I think Linda made a good choice for her needs.
I spend all of my time in Photoshop and Illustrator as well as some in Dreamweaver. Sounds like I should wait. My situation is such that I dont feel like going out and buying a G5 would serve me. I would rather wait. But waiting is not something I do well. I want to play now!
I just spent my whole weekend having to set up a Windows 98 machine for an old piece of hardware I won’t be upgrading so I am particularly nauseated. A Mac is a really sweet machine no matter what the version.
When we all go to intel machines and have winders installed, does that mean we have to run all that anti virus crap and put up with all the garbage that goes with windows?
Because if so, I’ll give windows a big miss compeletly.
When we all go to intel machines and have winders installed, does that mean we have to run all that anti virus crap and put up with all the garbage that goes with windows?
Well, yes, it is advisable. After all it is a Windows system. However between Ad-aware, Spybot, ZoneAlarm, and never surfing the internet except for software updates from known sites you should have no problems. I’ve had a PC for a couple of years and, following that strategy (just using it for running applications) I’ve never had a virus, or been affected by spyware, adware, keyloggers, or any of the other malicious types of Windows plagues. Likewise, I’ve never had Windows XP crash! It is a very solid system although, to me, not nearly as clever, integrated, or aesthetically appealing as the Mac OS.
I’ve come to the conclusion that if one is dependant on Adobe software for making a living, wait until Universal versions are released.
In short, I think Linda made a good choice for her needs.
This is exactly why I bought the cheapest G5 dual core. And by the time Adobe has UB apps I will be ready to get that Mactel and I don’t have the issues that early adopters have. plus I have a nice backup machine for my wife to use for school.
It is unfortunate that Mac users were led to believe by the hardware vendor that (a) Rosetta was a perfect Intel x86-based emulator of the PowerPC and that (b) it was a simple matter for Mac application vendors to recompile their software and voila universal binary versions.
Ann has been consistently negative on the MacIntels for whatever reasons, while I am positive. It seems one can look at the glass as half empty or half full. To me small issues regarding the next 7 months of the use of a box that will be used for years are not the essential part of a multiyear purchase decision. My perusal of PS folks using MacIntels shows a very high proportion saying PSCS2 works fine as compared to their previous G4 boxes. Quoting Dov Isaacs:
until we have the universal binary versions, unfortunately we cannot officially support use of Mactel although some users apparently (both inside and outside of Adobe) seem to be able to use the applications with only minor inconveniences. (emphasis mine)
Saying G5 owners should not buy a MacIntel until PSCS3 comes out reiterates what I think everyone agreed on months ago for those folks with G5 setups. The question is what should users who must buy a new box today choose, G5 or MacIntel? IMO MacIntel makes much, much more sense.
In any event I will have at least one MacIntel before the end of the year so I will be able to report first hand, beyond the problem free one hour of testing I have done so far.
Ann is by far not the only one skeptical of Mac-Intels. A lot of software developers are pulling their hair out over them at this point, including Adobe, as amply evidenced even through the veil of a normally secretive corporate policy.
While I agree that your analysis is valid for a perennial optimist with an unbridled faith in Apple, I would not buy a MacIntel right now nor would I advise anyone else to do so just yet.
By the time a substantial number of developers and Apple have ironed out the wrinkles in the combination of software and new hardware, I fear today’s Mac-Intels are going to be hopelessly outdated or plain obsolete.
Faith is a gift. You either have it, or you don’t. I don’t.
It is not at all about faith in Apple yada yada. Like you, I too am a cynic who has observed (usually uninformed) folks being had by Apple for 20+ years. It is about the experience of folks who have been running PSCS2 quite successfully on MacIntel boxes since January, including my own short trial.
I have never demeaned the difficulties of developers moving their apps to UB, nor the performance hit that Rosetta causes. In fact I have strongly supported Adobe’s decision to combine UB with PSCS3 and have encouraged folks to buy the strongest MacIntels to help cope with the Rosetta performance hit.
However IMO the fact remains that generally PSCS2 users fare relatively well on MacIntel boxes under today’s conditions and OS. And for the final 75% of the life of a box purchased today MacIntels will be overwhelmingly superior. Ergo for those PS users who for whatever reason cannot wait for UB PSCS3 to purchase a new box MacIntels make far more sense than G5s.
Note too that even though this is a PS forum, most of us run other apps as well. In my case for instance Aperture has become at least as important as PSCS, and Aperture rocks on MacIntels. As long as PSCS2 runs as well on a new MacIntel as on my dying G4s any MacIntel is an improvement for today’s work and will be far better than G5s for 2007-08-09 work.
Ann has been consistently negative on the MacIntels for whatever reasons …
Macintels, G5s, pretty much each new version of OSX … haven’t you noticed a pattern here? Only when she makes the jump do the products miraculously become worthy. I’m still waiting for the day that digital photography is blessed. LOL …
My own experience with the Mac Pro has been nothing short of outstanding. I’ve yet to crash PS, the machine runs PS and other Adobe apps much faster than my G4, and it’s extremely quiet. Naturally, if you have a relatively current G5, it makes no sense to upgrade at this point but for those with older machines, I think it’s a great time. (evidently my G4 is a bit PO’d at me – I think the power supply just bit the dust) I’m not so naive to think that Rosetta works "perfectly" (there is evidence that Rosetta introduces calculation errors in some mathematical apps) but it’s worked pretty darned well for me so far.
I can’t understand why Adobe’s non-support of Rosetta’d apps is so shocking. Of COURSE they aren’t going to support it – it’s an emu layer that didn’t even exist when their apps first shipped! (17 long months ago)
Faith is a gift. You either have it, or you don’t. I don’t.
The machine is solid – no faith in Apple required. The faith I must have … is that Adobe comes through.
I’ll save this thread to revisit it in 18 months, if I’m still around. It should be fun.
I concur but think we will see major additional empirical information well within the next 3 quarters. Leopard, PSCS3 and quad core MacIntels will be in full usage by the first half of 2007. My forecast is that by then G5’s relative capabilities will be dropping like stones, like they already are doing for UB apps.
I will also forecast that by then RAM usage will also be up a lot.
My buying urge has calmed down a bit since Mac Pro was introduced. I still intend to buy one and am very excited about that prospect but I think I want to watch a while longer.
I "jump" (as Alan and PShock have noted) ONLY when product-development has reached the stage that it EXCEEDS the performance of the equipment that I am currently using by a meaningful degree (and that means the hardware in cinjunction with the software that I consider essential to what I need to do. Then I go straight to the top-end of the range.
Once we have CS3 (assuming that it IS solid on a MacIntel); and Leopard (probably at least at v.10.5.3); and reliable drivers for scanners and printers; AND a full range of high-end MacIntels I shall no doubt "jump" as you put it.
But regarding digital cameras as they now are no bloody thanks!!!
Digital cameras, together with their tethered laptops and perfectly horrid viewfinders, have to be the clumsiest and most annoying way to take photographs since the days of wet collodion. If I was GIVEN the even the most expensive DLR that is CURRENTLY being made, I would frankly give it away.
I am still on the fense. I posted this question in the Mac forum too. Most say upgrade.
I bought a rev.1 beige G3 years ago. It had problems in the design of the bus that prevented upgrades later on to Panther, hard drives, CD Roms. I dont remember the exact details I just remember the frustration. I researched it well. It is hard to forget that at this moment of indecision.
I am having another fit of wanting the Mac Pro and trying to let reason hold me off. As I said before I am not having problems with my G4 I just want the new machine. Its been 4 years. I have no desire to buy a G5 and I can probabaly wait if it is really best. It is just hard.
I would like to keep this thread alive for further information on the Mac Pros.
Well, with each day that passes, that’s one day closer to CS3, Leopard and the next generation of MacPro towers.
I think Allen’s advice on this question is right on the money: If you need a new box now (meaning that you’re running a slow G4 AND you’re losing business because of its sluggishness), buy the current MacPro. When Leopard and CS3 are released, it will scream along as advertised. If you can wait (meaning you’re getting your work done and are only suffering from an itchy wallet), then wait for rev.2 of the MacPro.
In either case, it doesn’t seem like you can make an outright bad decison.
There are some very much faster Mac Pros than the current batch due in the next few months;
There are a number of problems with running the CS2 Suite under Rosetta so many that Adobe’s Tech Support are not currently offering "Support" to MacIntel Users.
There is an intermediate CS2.3 Upgrade scheduled to ship before the end of 2006 (but no indication of how well it will run under Rosetta).
The Universal Binary CS3 (which does not need Rosetta) is not scheduled to be shipped until "Second Quarter 2007".
In other words, if it was me, I would wait until June 2007 before buying a MacIntel.
But, if I was stuck with an old G3 that was driving me crazy, and I had a lot of work to do; I would be looking for a G5 to tide me over until June.
I would say the same thing Cindy. If you don’t need it now, then wait.
I made the decision to buy what I did when I did because I needed the speed increase right away and did not want to risk the unknown. I was willing to make the trade off because of my immediate needs. If you are not pressed you should wait.
You really should wait Cindy. I honestly do not see enough of a speed increase between my G4 1Ghz DP and the G5 Quad to my satisfaction. Whereas the new MacPro is faster than the G5 Quad, I would hope that another year of improvements would be much more worthwhile.
Linda, I am glad someone understands my dilemma. I may do nothing but it hurts. LOL. I must be bored. Or maybe it is those jobs I just completed and figure I deserve some sort of reward beyond food and mortgage.
I would say Choice B is the correct answer. It feels good to be rewarded for your hard work. And if you are like me (which I think you are) then only practical rewards, such as those that can turn around and make more money, are worth the expense.
It’s been almost a month and I have no issues whatsoever with my Mac Pro. Photoshop runs twice as fast as my DP 1GHz G4, and of course everything that is Intel native positively screams. I especially appreciate the silence. No regrets at all.
Yeah, the 3 minutes it took to apply both of the firmware updates to my Mac Pro was certainly a pain. 😉
Look, it’s good to be cautious when making a large purchase but the fact is ANY Mac (or any product), you buy can have issues, no matter where it is in the development cycle. Even the later versions of G5s were notorious for exploding power supplies.
At the beginning of the year, I actually purchased a refurb DP 2.7 G5, figuring it would be a good way to get me through the Intel transition. I thought wrong. The fan activity on that machine drove me crazy – they would constantaly ramp up and then back down again for no apparent reason. "It’s a refurb problem", I thought but after many posts to the Apple forums and a couple of calls to Apple, the message I was receiving was, "it’s normal". Normal or not, I sent the machine back.
Sure, I have no idea how CS3 is going to work on this machine but then neither do G5 owners. They have to have as much faith in Apple (Leopard), and Adobe (CS3), as I do. As far as I’m concerned, there’s no such thing as a "proven machine" because everything changes.
All we can hope for when making a new computer purchase is that it’s a trouble-free experience and everything works as expected. So far, that’s exactly what this Mac Pro has been for me. And unlike Linda, with her fancy-schmancy G5 Quad, my machine feels worlds-apart faster than my G4. 😉 (just playin’ with you Linda)
I read (what I thought was) a very good article about buying from Apple. It addresses your circumstances exactly. Particularly valuable are the conclusions at the bottom, entitled "The Short Answer: Should I Buy Now, or Wait?"
After years of watching Apple, our view is that the purchase of any Apple product can be made on a single question: does the product available today have the features that will satisfy me? If the answer is yes, buy it and enjoy it.
That really is a sensible article. I could identify with this statement as it seems to be the kind of philosophy I am adopting.
I just looked on the Apple boards and there are a whole bunch of people with the same issue. wil Apple do a recall and do the right thing and fix these computers like they did with the G3 iBooks?
Sorry to hear that Buko. I know Apple is recalling certain of their batteries so hopefully they will take care of this too. I hope the Powerbooks are not affected.
I agree LRK, I think that adjuncts with my philosophy of: if the new machine will help you make money, NOW, then I buy it, and if necessary buy and even newer better machine when the time comes using the funds the NOW machine has helped me garner.
If I only plodded along and suffered with my creaky old machine, who knows.
Also my plan is always buy a new mac after the 3 years of warranty time is up. Of course that isn’t always easy or possible but I try.
As to logic boards frying at 40 months–eek. At what point in life/warranty were the G3 iBooks that Apple recalled?
From my perspective, I’m gonna wait until Leopard comes out to get a new machine. Then you can have CS3 (probably if not within months then), newest video card, newer chips, all able to handle all of the 10.5 eyecandy.
As to logic boards frying at 40 months–eek. I see you did not read closely again.
1 year warranty + 4 months = 16 months. I don’t usually buy Applecare as it has never been necessary before.
My mistake, but your highness I’m not the one that every claimed to read all, know all, be all. I assumed when you said warranty you had been smart enough to buy the 3 yr warranty. Oh well. Karma karma karma.
I assumed when you said warranty you had been smart enough to buy the 3 yr warranty.
Some folks (me) consider the AppleCare expense a terrible life cycle cost expenditure, and the "smart enough" folks are the ones smart enough to actually do a real life cycle cost analysis. If one does, one finds that AppleCare is overall a very poor way to spend money.
– Most failures occur during the free warranty. Even after warranty, repairs are often less than the cost of AppleCare. The odds of a huge product failure in years two/three are very slim, and many of those are either covered under the free warranty anyway (e.g. a recall) or not covered under AppleCare anyway.
– Computer hardware evolves quickly. Paying in advance to force future repairs to use old tech (e.g. a hard drive) often is bad economics.
– Apple hardware in years two and three historically has been extremely solid.
Well I got an AppleCare bundled with my Mac Pro. AppleCare actually cost $82 over the price Apple would have charged just for the computer and I didn’t have to pay tax which would have been over $200. To me the "insurance" was well worth the money. Everyone has different purchasing strategies.
Yes, that’s the ‘bundle.’ As I didn’t also have to pay tax or shipping it was the best deal I found. The only thing slightly ‘odd’ about the purchase is that if you haven’t purchased from them before (in which case you have an account) your first purchase has to be over the phone. They were very nice and professional.
In all the years I’ve been buying mac I’ve never had one die in 16 months. in fact they all still work. that is a good track record. So complaining about a 16 month life is not unreasonable.
Agreed, $82 for AppleCare would make it quite cost effective. And the one really useful thing about AppleCare is the telephone support for those folks that need it.
I’ve had never bought Applecare up to the point of buying the laptop. I never needed it. If you need to buy Apple care after paying 2 to 3 times the cost of a PC because Apple is now building crappy computers then something is wrong with the picture.
I was not offered any discounted Apple Care deal for the laptop. I was offered a discount when I bought my G5 and Cinema display so I got it for the first time.
I have actually used Apple Care and with success. They came to my office on one occasion to replace the CD burner. This happened in the last year of the 3. I found it worth it not to worry so much.
Replacing hard drives and CD/DVD drives is a piece of cake and to pay $249 for that service especially when I would want something much bigger than the original and could find it cheaper is a waste of money to me.
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