You’re right , Jim
Many "newbies" , however don’t realize that the JPG format is not a good format for "resaving" images that they have worked on. I think that’s why our regulars like to steer them into PSD and TIF formats immediately . New users are also perhaps less likely than you to use Adjustment Layers, and are not prevented from resaving in the JPG format . It’s a defensive thing , for us, but we got there with honest intentions <G> .
🙂
Brent
Yep, many newbies simply open a JPEG, do some simple adjustments, like crop/brightness/contrast/sharpen/etc, then resave as JPEG. Maybe several times, and even closing/reopening the file again from time to time. I know *I* did years ago when I first started with digital imagery. Couldn’t understand why my images kept getting *worse*!
Mac
Hi, Jim.
In my case, I am paranoid about losing an image.
All it takes is to make a destructive edit to the background, and then save… and you’ve lost your original.
For me, it is the equivalent of putting on my seatbelt. I do it every time I get in the car, even though I don’t routinely run into things.
Your practice is valid, and works for you, because you are disciplined in your approach. I’d wager that all of us have our own individualities in our practices, which work well for us but would curl someone else’s toes.
While it is inevitable that everyone will develop their own best-way of doing things, I think that it is reasonable to counsel extreme caution for beginners who may not understand fully the effect of every action they may take, as they learn the program.
IMHO…
Byron
wrote:
There are a number of people who regularly contribute to this forum who seem to like to make a major issue out of working on a copy of an image rather than working on the original JPEG image that is downloaded from the camera. I don’t understand why this has to be such a big issue. The only time that JPEG image is open is for the
Some like chocolate, some like vanilla.
It is very easy to make a transformation, hit save, and lose your original. People do it all the time!
My own preference is to save as .PSD, and go on from there.
Ed
Jim,
As I am one of those people you mention, always suggesting to folks to work on a copy, I think the bottom line is you don’t feel the need to protect your originals from yourself…I do, I have made mistakes. 🙂
Nancy
I’m one of those people too.
After uploading from my camera I make a selection of the images I want to use, convert these images to TIFF and start working on the TIFFs.
Leen
When we give advice to people who are new to digital imaging, I think we do them a greater service by recommending a conservative approach. What’s the harm in advising people to work on a copy? As they learn more about what they’re doing, they can develop their own workflow. If that happens to be Jim’s method, that’s fine. So, I guess what I don’t understand is why this is such a big issue with you, Jim, that it warrants its own thread.
A person new to all this fun needs to be careful, we do make mistakes, so I save my originals, or at least the best of them on my external HD.
I work on a copy, save it as .psd, (use a web photo copy if you put it on your site.) Or save it as a .jpg anyway, as another copy.
I still consider myself a beginner, and I have ruined many pictures, but I *always* have my originals on my external HD, and the best as .psd copies sitting happily in another folder here.
Hey, thats a great comparison, wear your seat belt!
Jane
My sincere apologies, Beth. One of the things I was trying to clarify with such a thread is that we don’t edit different file types. We editt the pixels that have been loaded into memory. The file type is only an issue when it is time to save the image. But I will make it a point from here on out to clear my thoughts with you before I submit them. It seems that this forum is not a place for open discussion and consideration of other points of view. And that, in my opinion, is unfortunate.
I just remember the first few ‘rolls’ of digital film I shot as JPEG’s, then brought into Elements, edited the h__ out of them, then flattened the images and resaved them with the original names. Not good… I still have to be careful on the rare occasion that I shoot in JPEG (mostly do RAW) and do something like Auto Color or Auto Contrast and a quick sharpen, then save; I still want to Save As, and add ‘edit’ to the name. I like the approach many of you take in saving the originals to CD’s or DVD’s before doing anything else; just wish I could develop that discipline.
Chuck
Jim, I think you’re wrong about the openness. I read the thread you started and there wasn’t a single person that disagreed with what you said and there certainly wasn’t any rancor. A few of us went off on a slight tangent to take the opportunity to remind everyone how important it is to preserve the original image in some fashion. Your point of view in this case is really a point of fact and a good one for us all to grasp: an open image may be grayscale or RGB or Indexed Color, but it’s not a JPG or TIF or PSD or (Jodi) a PNG. However, the act of saving should be a deliberate one; if we open the image as a JPEG, edit, and wind up with a single layer, it’ll save as a JPEG with the original name unless we take a deliberate step – Save As – to change the name and/or the file type.
So aren’t we all saying the same thing, just emphasizing different points? I think so!
Chuck
Lighten up, Jim..
No one even contested your comments.
Just elaborations.
Mac
P~ pretty
N~ neat
G~ gimmick !
yes, I am accustomed to using ‘save as’ but I remember when i first got Elements…took me a few weeks to realize I should not save my edited images as JPEGs….we all learn sooner or later. Wish i had of found this forum ‘sooner’ though…could have saved myself from printing crappy pics in the beginning 😉
I personally think this is about as good as forum gets. We all get excellent advice with a little humor and fun thrown in. I have seen very little bickering, badgering or rude behavior, no snobbery or I told you so attitudes to deal with. We have stayed away from profanity, religion, politics and racism and still we manage to have interesting conversations.
—
Have A Nice Day, 🙂
James Hutchinson
http://www.pbase.com/myeyesview
"It seems that this forum is not a place for open discussion and consideration of other points of view. And that, in my opinion, is unfortunate."
That’s unfortunate.
CR
I’m just going to have to say that it seems like Jim is getting jumped on for his post and I can’t fathom why. I don’t see how it could become so contentious. And it is my sincere hope that Jim can let this roll off his back and still want to post and be a part of this forum.
And telling someone to ‘lighten up’ is, IMO, rude. I really bristled when I read that.
It would be difficult to find a better forum than this one but conversations, as with our loved ones, aren’t always roses.
Geez, rude?
Is there an "I’m going to take offense at nothing" virus going round?
Lighten up yer own self, eh?
M
Hey, I’m just trying to have a little fun here. And maybe get some of us to think a little bit. It’s fun to get opinions from others because I think it can broaden our understanding of what we are trying to do. Besides, it’s fun to stir up the waters once in a while.
Hmmm….could it be that we’re getting too passionate about Elements?! We sometimes seem more like siblings than strangers…
🙂
Jim, fun and thinking are both good things!!
🙂
Wow! You guys are the best. All the different points of view and different explanations have given me a deeper understanding of the subject, and as a newbie I have been bothered by this one for some time. Thanks.
P.S. My morning hour of computer games is out the window, replaced by reading this forum. No book could ever teach me all I learn from you.
Hania
Hania, we’re all learning together!
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with advising a new user to work on a copy. OTOH, I never do. Instead, as soon as I open an image, I duplicate the background and then never touch the background. Accomplishes much the same thing. Before I do any significant cropping, I do save an uncropped version.
Speaking of cropping, does anyone ever use the Save Selection feature? After I found that baby, I just save the selection that I want for cropping (giving it a helpful name). Then when I want to output a final, cropped image (say for the Elements Challenge), I just duplicate the image, load the saved selection, and do an Image–>Crop.
This way I can go back and edit the crop if I don’t like it. Or I can set up multiple crop variations (sounds like farming!).
hi Hania, You just brought up a very interesting point that I had forgotten; When I got PSE last year and started learning it and found this forum; I threw away ALL my computer games and haven’t played one, not once since!
Jane
Jane,
We should start a slae room for old computer games … I too haven’t played a game since I got Elements …
Maybe we could have "I love Elements" or "Save as a TIFF" T Shirts 🙂 🙂
Wendy
Oh I like "Save as TIFF " T shirts , Wendy ! That strikes me as just right.
🙂
~ ‘ don’t talk to me I’m pixelated ! ‘
Oh! Wise guy, eh? Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk!
Maybe on the tee shirt; "how do you like my Tiffs?
Pete
Good one Pete…your kind of gal should wear that shirt….proudly !
wrote in message
Good one Pete…your kind of gal should wear that shirt….proudly !
I am surprised that know one has picked up the initials of this news group and run with it.
APS have the best tiffs
APS 2 need you
Hey MAC you can go APS 2
APS over Windows
APS take graphics to a new level
And so on
wrote in message…
I am surprised that know one has picked up the initials of this news group and run with it.
APS have the best tiffs
APS 2 need you
Hey MAC you can go APS 2
APS over Windows
APS take graphics to a new level
And so on
Adobe.Photoshop.Elements
APE?
How many APEs does it take?
I’m not going there!
Ed once I got started I stopped thinking insert and E in all I said doh
If you are going to burn and crash do it well double doh
g.
Grant, that was fine…we just assumed you were into the beer again. 😉
did ya all know that ‘photoshop’ has indeed become a verb ?
Now let’s use that in a sentence….
I needed cosmetic surgery but couldn’t afford it so I photoshopped myself instead. Instant gratification !
that was bad i know…all you poets…time to do your thing ! >>
An adjective: It’s a photoshopped image.
Other uses for Photoshop about to enter the dictionary
A Photoshopist is a ….
A Photoshopologist is a …(PhD = Doctor of Photoshop) Usually treats Photoshop Addiction Syndrome and related disorders.
A Photoshopoholic is a… (that’s an easy one)
I know there’s more but that’s all I have time for right now.
hI aLL,
This post has been an interesting read, that’s for sure. I’m new and wanted to know why you shouldn’t save a modified image in jpeg format. There was some metion of losing quality – is that so. I’m so new so any explaination would help. thanks,
Mishell
Yes, Photoshop has indeed become a verb!
I have told my brother and husband many times that their great photos have been "Photoshopped" by me.
Then they point out to me all the stuff in the news magazines that have been "Photoshopped", but it sure is fun!
Submitted a digital photo for my carry permit, and the answer was, an emphatic "NO digital photos accepted", so had to go to a photo store for the picture. I do agree, as you could submit some really ‘changed’ photos for ID photos.
The digital age has really hit.
Jane
Jane, did you tell them they were digital ? I mean…you printed it on photo paper and…..? How could they know ? Mine look a hell of alot better than Walmart prints !
Mishell,
It is not recommended to edit images while in the jpg format. This is a "lossy" format. It compresses the image to make the file smaller and therefore quicker to load which is why it is great for the web or emails. But each time a change is made to the file and then resaved it is recompressed and looses quality. The .psd format is a "lossless" format. It does not compress an image and retains all of the quality. Files of this format are much larger than jpg, however editing and resaving does not degrade the image. It is best to use "Save As" and then select .psd on your jpgs when you first open them and want to edit. Continue to keep it in the .psd format. If you want to email or put on the web, you can simply create a jpg from the .psd file for than purpose. When using "Save As" you can either overwrite a prior version of the file by not changing the filename, or just type in a new name and Save As will produce another completely separate file.
To tiff or not to tiff, that is the question. Whether ’tis nobler to suffer the loss of the original…
Hi Jodi, They just know, they want the pictures from a local photo store. Isn’t this digital age fun! What we can do now is so great. And last year I had no clue,,,
Jane
Mishell,
This group has an offsite home for what we call the Challenge. Each week Grant chooses an image to work with and everyone who wishes can transform/edit it any way they choose and submit it for posting. Dear Grant does all the technical stuff to get it on the website. Have a look, there are many pages, the starting image is the top left one, click on a thumnail to see the larger version. They are around 100kb each so they don’t take too long to showup if you are on dialup.
<
http://www.cavesofice.org/~grant/Present/index.html>
Nancy
so basically they do business with the local photo store…ya, I had that happen a while back when i need a photo of myself…I could only go to ‘one’ place to have it done…like they stated. it’s all about money honey 🙂
Oh oh, Jane’s packin iron. Watch out! 😉
What happens when you cross paintball and PSE?
<
http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?128@@.2ccf7584> start with message 8.
PS, I bought my husband a paintball gun for Christmas, but we only have used it once, as it makes quite a mess against the white snow.
Oh I am getting OT again, but its fun.
Jane
Jane, If your worried about making a mess on the snow, what are you going to do when your grass is painted? By the way, hope you didn’t use red paint because then it would look like your yard was a crime scene.
Terri
Painting you lawn could be very artistic. The Italian director "Michelangelo Antonioni" painted the grass in a parks scene for his movie "Blowup" because nature didn’t select the right shade of green for him.
Grant
I bet he was a real joy to work for.
