OK, I’m lame…

MO
Posted By
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
Views
1068
Replies
65
Status
Closed
Could the kind folks of the forum provide me with the threads or info on the best font mgmt. application there is out on the market for OSX?

I know there have been many threads on the subject.

Suitcase sucks.

Font Reserve sucks.

What’s left?

Burnt out on font problems.

How to Improve Photoshop Performance

Learn how to optimize Photoshop for maximum speed, troubleshoot common issues, and keep your projects organized so that you can work faster than ever before!

R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
FontAgent Pro, a.k.a. FAP.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
Yea, that’s the one I’ve been looking for.

Is this an Apple product?

(still being lame)
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Aug 13, 2004
I’m not one to fiddle with a font program. I just want it to do it’s job so I can forget it and go on about my business. I got FAP on the recommendations of Ann, Buko and others here, I was enticed by their ‘raves’ and not because I was having any problem with Suitcase. To tell you the truth, Suitcase does not suck. In fact, FAP has it’s rough edges (playback mode goes into a ‘flip out’ when you scroll too fast.) I have FAP running and it has been no problem over the past month, I still liked Suitcase just as well.

Choose Your Poison.
B
Buko
Aug 13, 2004
No. its made by insider software. <http://www.insidersoftware.com/>

this is by far the best fontmanager for OSX.

Master Juggler Pro makes a font manager for OSX too, but I have not tried it nor read any reviews on how good or bad it is. I forget who makes Master Juggler.
B
Buko
Aug 13, 2004
Ken, Suitcase does suck.

thats why I use FAP.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Aug 13, 2004
Buko, I’ll meet you down at the John Kerry Campaign at the waterfront at noon.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
Yea,

Suitcase sucks when you load fonts and they do not become active.

I’d say that sucks.

What would you call it?
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Aug 13, 2004
MO, I have only words of respect for Ann and Buko (Ann would be chiming in here if she knew we were talking Font Agent Pro) but I was perfectly happy with Suitcase, and would not have changed if I had it to do over. But, like I say, I just want the software to do a job and then forget it while it keeps working. Suitcase does that and now, FAP does that too.

Ann and Buko like some extra features about FAP, but I can live without even knowing what they are. I’ve examined FAP pretty thoroughly, and I see nothing I want to see again.

I have work to do. Let the font management program be a non-issue.

I’ve always updated Suitcase, it’s always worked, it has NEVER skipped a beat and my fonts have always been there. I give it 5 stars.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
Yes, Ken, I really don’t care what font mgmt. application I use, I just want it to work with a high success rate.

We have lots of strange workflows whereas things break easily at times.

I do respect everyones opinion after all.

;o)
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
Hey Ken.

Want a job in SF>?
Aug 13, 2004
And Mike…

In case you haven’t explored these, or have forgotten to bookmark them for future (or present) reference:

<http://www.gballard.net/macrant/fonts.html>
<http://www.apple.com/pro/archive/creative/fonts/> <http://maczealots.com/tutorials/fonts/> (You may want to just ignore the FontBook™-specific info here)
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
Thanks man.

Shall partake.
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
While it’s true that we’re still waiting for the perfect font management program, (Come on, Thomas Phinney! Change course and revive ATM and ATR in killer OS X versions, please!), I second the recommendation of FontAgent Pro over current versions of Suitcase.

As I’ve stressed before, I was one of the earliest supporters of Suitcase, having been a beta tester for Steve Brecher when Suitcase was essentially a one-man operation. Then Steve sold it and it went downhill after that.

Later, Adobe came out with ATM Deluxe and ATR and there was no need for any other font management utility through Mac OS 9.2.2. When Adobe decided not to support ATM Deluxe in OS X, I went back to investigate Suitcase, then at version 10. Well, Suitcase 10 was so buggy and the Suitcase Engine caused so many crashes in Classic and in straight, native 9.2.2, that, reluctantly, I couldn’t consider it seriously any longer. It also fails to activate fonts in an unpredictable way.

FontAgent Pro is still far from perfect and it still lacks the flexibility of ATR, but the latest version leaves Suitcase in the dust. I’d say that, yes, the current version of Suitcase sucks big time.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Aug 13, 2004
"Want a job in SF>?"

Details?
B
Buko
Aug 13, 2004
MO I’ve only had one font not activate in FAP. It was some wierd font I had never heard of before, a free font no doubt, being used by a band for their logo. to activate this font I used FontBook which worked flawlessly with FAP.

I was using v1.4 at the time. v2.1.1 is much more robust than v1.4
JC
Jay_Chevako
Aug 13, 2004
The thing that keeps me going back to Suitcase is the "Add Temporarily" feature, This is a must have when dealing with customer supplied files. Load them up and the forget about them, they get uninstalled on shutdown. Does FAP have an equivalent feature?
Jay
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
Hmm..

We just got some kind of font checking software that does a diagnostic on fonts and repairs damaged fonts so that the font mgmt system can swallow the fonts. I don’t even know the name of it yet. Just burried with work at this time.

And thanks Ramon for the info as well.

Ken

contact me off list at

I’m building an empire of the best in the industry.
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
Regarding Apple’s Font Book, I wonder how it can possibly coexist with Lemke’s Software’s FontBook using the same name, practically. Coincidentally, I just downloaded the latest version of FontBook yesterday.

"Fontbook –– The ultimate font utility for every MacOS user who wants a complete overview about all fonts."

<http://www.lemkesoft.com/en/fontbook.htm>
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
interesting…
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
Mike,

We just got some kind of font checking software that does a diagnostic on fonts and repairs damaged fonts so that the font mgmt system can swallow the fonts. I don’t even know the name of it yet.

If it’s Font Doctor, be aware that it misses many damaged fonts. Additionally, I don’t trusts its "repairs". If a font is diagnosed as damaged, I just replace it from the original source media.

FontAgent Pro also ferrets out bad fonts and places them in a Damaged Fonts folder, or unlinked-fonts folder.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 13, 2004
yes, I do believe it is font doctor.

Trying to get clients to distribute fonts let alone the correct ones or ones that are not damaged is a tall order at times.
B
Buko
Aug 13, 2004
FAP can be set not to reload auto activaed fonts on restart. this sounds similar to temp fonts.
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
Buko,

I also had a troublesome font that FAP consistently reported as missing the outline font, while at the same time saying that the outline for that font was missing the bitmapped font. Go figure. But Apple’s FontBook did accept and activate it, working side by side with FAP.

It was a musical notation font I had created in an early version of Fontographer, and Ann Shelbourne eventually fixed my problem by re-saving it in Fontographer 4.1.3 the last version of Fontographer, released some 8 years ago. Since then, I picked up a legitimate copy of 4.1.3 for peanuts.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Aug 13, 2004
Buko, I hope you know I am just kidding you about which is best. I appreciate your recommendations and I subscribe to them. It’s just that I also have never had any problems with the ‘other’ manager.
JC
Jay_Chevako
Aug 13, 2004
Auto activated means the fonts should be installed already, but will it Install (not activate) fonts temporarily and uninstall on shutdown? Jay
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
If you mean will FAP jump out of your computer, look around your office for a font CD and copy the fonts to your drive, and delete them when you’re done, then the answer is NO.

But if the font is on your drive and you have let FAP know they’re there, then YES they will be activated.

Fonts can be anywhere on your drive. When yo do the initial "import", FAP will copy them (or move them if you prefer) to a folder, where it activates fonts as needed.
JC
Jay_Chevako
Aug 13, 2004
It’s a subtle difference Ramón, I want to temporarily install customer fonts. Suitcase will automatically uninstall Temporary fonts on restart. After that it has no links to those fonts.

Now if FAP would automatically call up the ad agencies and tell them they are idiots and forgot to include Mistral All caps, then we might have something.
Jay
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
Jay,

I want to temporarily install customer fonts. Suitcase will automatically uninstall Temporary fonts on restart.

Again: what do you mean "uninstall"? Do you mean delete from your hard drive automatically? I don’t think Suitcase does that either.

Fonts no longer have to be "installed" in the System file like in the prehistoric days of the Font/DA Mover.
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
Now if FAP would automatically call up the ad agencies and tell them they are idiots and forgot to include Mistral All caps, then we might have something.

If the ad agencies are using Mistral in all caps, they have no business being in the business.

There are very few fonts that come with EULAs that would allow the clients to send you the fonts legally anyway. In most cases, you have to buy them.
LT
Laurentiu_Todie
Aug 13, 2004
Ramón, Yes, a service bureau has to own all the fonts they need, but they should activate the fonts the designer used because those may have been altered in Fontographer…

(Some studios add the client’s logos as a glyph to some fonts : )

I liked ATM Deluxe (funny name) too and I think that on the dual booting Macs it can still be used.
JC
Jay_Chevako
Aug 13, 2004
Installed in SUITCASE until restart. I’m not talking about deleting fonts or putting them in the system file.

These are customer supplied fonts. I only want to use them for that particular job, and I don’t want them mingling with my other fonts, or have suitcase complain when I remove the fonts along with the ad.

Here is the typical scenario customer sends an ad with fonts, there are a couple versions of Helvetica, something called Ocean Sans, Zapf Dingbats and 15 versions of Swiss. I load them up into suitcase using the add temporary function. I work my ad and create a pdf. Now I am done with those fonts, I don’t want them installed in SUITCASE any more, I can hit remove temporary fonts or they will uninstall when I shutdown/ restart. The actual font files stay within the specific ad folder, but there is no longer any reference to them in suitcase.

I take you don’t receive a lot of customer files 🙂
Jay
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
Jay,

Installed in SUITCASE until restart. I’m not talking about deleting fonts or putting them in the system file

Well, that’s what FAP will do. It’s called "activating" and "deactivating". You don’t "install" fonts into the Suitcase application either.
JC
Jay_Chevako
Aug 13, 2004
I give up.
Jay
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
So do I.
R
Ram
Aug 13, 2004
I take you don’t receive a lot of customer files

None containing fonts. 🙂
IL
Ian_Lyons
Aug 13, 2004
I’m building an empire of the best in the industry.

Pity the foundations are built on floating sand 😉
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 13, 2004
As far as I know Jay, no FAP will not temporally add fonts.

The workaround I have come up with is to add a new library, load clients fonts there and delete the library upon restart. (then benefit of this is if you ever crash, your fonts are still loaded. But, that is not a big deal in X)

I am currently testing the application to implement.

The interface seems more geared for a designer than prepress. I am still working with organization and am a little unhappy with it.

I have not crashed it yet but have only been testing for a couple of days. FontReserve crashes consistently with certain client’s fonts.
JC
Jay_Chevako
Aug 13, 2004
Thanks John, that’s what I thought. Its the one feature that keeps me with Suitcase. I demoed Font reserve, and ended up reinstalling OSX (I love Bitstreams Font Navigator for windows). I demoed FAP, but couldn’t find an equivalent to add temporarily, just thought I might have missed something.
Btw I am actually a designer, but I take in a lot of ads. Jay
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 13, 2004
It really is not that bad though.

FAP has the ability to show multiple libraries.

You create additional libraries (not the my font library) for your permanent libraries.

Set the application not to activate fonts.

When starting the app at the beginning of the day, delete the my fonts library. (the library is easily deleted within the application.)

Then, when adding client font sets (center screen in sets), FAP automatically creates the my fonts library and defaults to that location for which library to add the fonts into.

I do have to say that I almost ditched the application until I came up with that workaround. Still testing though.
JC
Jay_Chevako
Aug 13, 2004
That’s about as counter-intuitive as most good work-arounds are. Jay
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 14, 2004
It gets worse, I forgot to mention the sets remain and they also have to be manually deleted. I do this by naming the sets to the ticket number so all the sets I wish to delete is numerically grouped.

It requires a select, then shift select to select all the previous days sets in order to delete them at once.

You cannot just delete the sets because the fonts are still contained in the library. When deleting the library, the sets remain.

Annoying, yes. Since it is once a day, it is not that bad.
JS
John_Slate
Aug 14, 2004
How dos FAP handle conflicts?

You know those customers who send you some wild cachophany of fonts with suitcases that contain overlapping screen fonts, but you need to open both suitcases for the screen fonts that DON’T coflict?

Suitcase in OSX simply won’t allow it, and OSX simply won’t allow the user to open one of the suitcases and trash the conficting screen font.

While we’re at it, are there any OSX utilities that allow users to alter the contents of suitcases?

PS: I would take the advice of a designer when it comes to font management with a grain of salt. The environment that a typical designer works in is safe, controlled and static compared to the service side of the biz, where the ideal is to have only the customer’s fonts installed (or loaded… whatever) while you are working on their files, lest conflicts cause reflow or unexpected results at the rip. Then deactivate one set and activate the next set for the next job. Auto-activation of any kind is asking for trouble in the service side since the exact font that gets activated could be anywhere. Remember that as a service provider you could have hundreds of helveticas on your machine at any given time. Now if an EPP guy like Kallios or MO touted a font management tool, THAT would be something to pay heed to.
R
Ram
Aug 14, 2004
John,

FAP also creates a Duplicate Fonts folder and sends duplicated fonts there, so they don’t get activated nor added to the known fonts as far as FAP is concerned. Same with damaged and orphaned fonts.
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 14, 2004
What it claims to do when importing fonts:

1 Finds all fonts in the specified folders and subfolders.

2 Runs extensive integrity tests to check for corrupt fonts.

3 Identifies duplicate fonts and imports only unique fonts in each library.

4 Identifies all unmatched PostScript fonts and does not import them.

5 Removes point sizes over 12 or keeps the next smallest size to save system resources.

6 Splits up suitcases into individual font files for precise typeface control.

7 Renames each bitmapped font file (suitcase) to the font name used by OS X and in FontAgent Pro’s interface.

8 Groups fonts into family folders and places them in alpha-betical folders.

9 Creates a Problem fonts folder and places fonts failing integrity tests into subfolders according to the nature of the failure.

Way too early for me to confirm or deny. 🙂
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Aug 14, 2004
Jay:

The best answer is probably to import fonts into FAP’s database by "Making a Copy" and not by "Moving" them from their original source folder.

And when you install fonts from a Customer, install them into a new, specially named (by Job number perhaps?) "Library"—do not make a "Set".

Activate and de-activate the complete specially named Library as needed; and, when you have finished with it, just delete that particular Library from FAP.
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 15, 2004
The issue with installing in a different library other than the "My Fonts" library is that the menu does not default to the location. Thus, every time fonts are install via set, the drop down menu needs to be set at the "client" library. The workaround I mentioned using the "My Fonts" library as the the temporary library is that it is self generating if deleted. (It would be nice though if a library would ditch the sets that is attributed to the library when deleted)

If you install them directly into the library instead of making a set, (to avoid a step of deleting sets) then all of the fonts become grouped together in the "client" library and distinguishing the fonts from the 1st job with the 5th job is not possible.

My super analness requires all fonts supplied by clients to be labeled, activated ONLY when outputting their work and deactivated afterwards. Start of next business day, all previous fonts installed by clients are removed from the font management application.

If prepress and those designers who receive client supplied files on a regular basis do not use temporarily installed fonts, they end up with quite a cluttered mess.
JS
John_Slate
Aug 15, 2004
My super analness requires all fonts supplied by clients to be labeled, activated ONLY when outputting their work and deactivated afterwards. Start of next business day, all previous fonts installed by clients are removed from the font management application.

That is hardly being anal. It’s being sensible.
RS
Richard_Sohanchyk
Aug 15, 2004
FAP by a mile. Font Reserve was a complete disaster. Suitcase is adequate.
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 15, 2004
What is it that you REALLY like about FAP?

Interface?
Speed?
Reliability?
Corrupt fonts checking?
Handling of multiple fonts?
Auto-Activation?

What specifically do you like about FAP over the competitors?

I am currently testing FAP because I have continual application and database crashes from Font Reserve. These crashes are attributed to certain fonts when installed from one client, deactivate then installed the same fonts from another client. The crashes can also cause the database to be corrupt. This is the reason I am switching from Font Reserve.

FAP stated on their website that "NEW FontAgent Pro 2.1.1 is the ideal solution for QuarkXPress font problems".

The only QuarkXpress font problems I have had is with the fonts that preview garbage but will still print correctly. (these same fonts preview and print correctly in InDesign)

The problem still persists using FAP to activate these fonts.
B
Buko
Aug 15, 2004
What I like about FAP is that it works reliably, all the time.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Aug 16, 2004
OK Ian, Mr. smart guy

I’m building an empire of the best in the industry. Pity the foundations are built on floating sand

When you have the largest print facility in California as your financial backer, I can pretty much do what I please.

;o0

And the sand thing. No, that’s the Marina district. Our land fill is of old wooden ships from the Gold Rush. Actually have a hull in our building somewhere in the basement.

And yes, Watch me pull it off.

Too bad you can’t do print production. I’d enjoy being your boss.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Aug 16, 2004
<<What is it that you REALLY like about FAP?

Interface?
Speed?
Reliability?
Corrupt fonts checking?
Handling of multiple fonts?
Auto-Activation? >>

Actually, ALL of the above!
___________
I suspect that the fonts which your client is using are damaged. If you can get hold of Fontographer, you could almost certainly repair the problem fonts (I would do that on copies of the fonts, just-in-case…).
LT
Laurentiu_Todie
Aug 16, 2004
The fonts seem to (at least) be lacking the screen… "part".

MO u duden’t here of Quebecor : )
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Aug 16, 2004
<< The fonts seem to (at least) be lacking the screen… "part". >>

which Fontographer will recreate for you……

:~)
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 16, 2004
Don’t forget, I also said those same fonts display properly in InDesign. The problem IMO lies with the font, Xpress and the operating system. I do not blame font management application for this.

I also repaired the fonts but still have the same issues.

As to multiple fonts installed, FAP seems to not be affected by these multiple fonts being installed that crashed font reserve. (yes, I repaired them before loading in FR)

Annoyances so far with FAP

Temporarily installed fonts
Speed, it is about 1 second slow for my taste. (with taking into account of the font integrity tests it performs)
When dragging font folder to sets, clicking on the window is needed before typing the name of the font set.

Pluses

It works (though only been testing since Thursday)

I have not tested auto-activation and do not think I will test it any time soon. 2 to 3 weeks and I will have FAP run through the wringer as to whether it will hold up to my prepress needs.
LT
Laurentiu_Todie
Aug 16, 2004
Ann, You are correct again : )

Would InDesign (by any chance) tap into the printer "part" of the font?
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Aug 16, 2004
<< When dragging font folder to sets, clicking on the window is needed before typing the name of the font set. >>

First make your named font Set folder, then Shift or command-click a whole collection of fonts in the left-hand window and drag & drop onto the Set folder in the right-hand window.

I have the Activation prefs. checked, but you normally don’t need to "Verify fonts before activation" once you have imported them—unless one suddenly starts acting-up.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Aug 16, 2004
I don’t know if InDesign taps into the printer "part" of a Type 1 font; but it does work with the new one-part OTFs while I understand that the wretched QXP still does not.

InD also lets you kern automatically (metrically or optically) as well as manually.

As for QXP…………
LT
Laurentiu_Todie
Aug 16, 2004
Thanks!
(I guess I asked for it : )
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Aug 16, 2004
Gazing into my crystal ball, I see that
there’s an InD in your future—but there’s no Quark in mine!
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 16, 2004
Creating individual sets before importing (or after installing a gang of fonts in the library) defeats the purpose of the organization and speed that I require.

It is all about less clicks, less time spent on the nuts and bolts of EVERY job that flows through.

If you want to tackle my issue, create 10 separate font folders containing any fonts of your choice on your desktop. (or anywhere you wish to locate them at)

Create a test library.

Install each folder in its own font set within the test library in FAP and label them 1 – 10 as you install them. Your finished product should be 10 separate font sets contained within the test library.

Quit the application and restart it. (to simulate a new day. not a needed step)

To start a new day, I do not want ANY of those fonts installed. (not just not activated) I do not want any reference to the fonts shown in the library nor the sets to show them.

The challenge I am proposing is to come up with another method that will reduce the clicks needed to do this than the workaround I mentioned previously.

There is a box of Godiva’s chocolates in it for you (or anyone else) if you can show a marked improvement to that workaround I posted before.

(employees of insider software not eligible)
B
Buko
Aug 16, 2004
John if you are manually activating fonts and you turn off every night.

in prefs > activation

under "reactivate fonts at start up"

uncheck "Include manually activated fonts"

To delete the set or library highlight and push delete button.
JK
John_Kallios
Aug 16, 2004
No, I am not talking about activation. (see the Jay vs. Ramon debate)

FAP does not have temporary INSTALLED fonts like the other font management application have.

With the workaround, it takes 5 operations to simulate the feature of temporary fonts.

Click on first step (1)
Shift select last set in numerically named grouped sets (2) (permanent sets are alphabetically named)
Delete (3)
Select My Fonts library (4)
Delete (5)

Now I am back in business. Since it is a once a day chore, no big deal.

The other fm applications would automatically delete them upon system restart.
R
Ram
Aug 16, 2004
John,

The other fm applications would automatically delete them upon system restart.

That’s why I had specifically asked; Jay had said the he was NOT talking about deleting them, which gave rise to the confusion. Your clarification puts a different spin to the issue.
RS
Richard_Sohanchyk
Aug 16, 2004
Again: what do you mean "uninstall"? Do you mean delete from your hard
drive automatically? I don’t think Suitcase does that either.

Suitcase leaves them where they are: client supplied disk, desktop, etc. FAP copies everything which I’m not keen on. Sometimes a client will supply THEIR Adobe Garamond that they messed with. I just want to print their Press Quality PDF, then never see their AGaramond until the next job comes in.

MacBook Pro 16” Mockups 🔥

– in 4 materials (clay versions included)

– 12 scenes

– 48 MacBook Pro 16″ mockups

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