How well does PE2 convert color to B&W?

NH
Posted By
noel_hsu
Jan 5, 2004
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517
Replies
18
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Closed
I have tried using the ‘remove color’ option and get pretty dull b&w images. Do I need to go to Photoshop, or are there alternte/undocumented ways of improving vibrancy using PE2. I did a search but could not find any clear method. Any help will be appreciated.

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BH
Beth_Haney
Jan 5, 2004
A "clear" method? That would be kind of hard to find around here, because this software is so versatile that there’s more than one way to do almost everything. And our forum regulars prove that all the time! 🙂

I think many people, including me, keep the photo in RGB and use the Hue/Saturation sliders to remove the color. You can then make adjustments with other tools, but are you sure it’s Elements that’s giving you dull b & ws, or are you noticing that when you print them? Today’s inkjets don’t do a good job of printing in black and white, because they’re not capable of the wide range of "grays" found in traditional printing methods. There are a couple of people here who have discussed options for printing black and white photos, but I can’t think of a specific thread off hand. After I post this, I’ll do a search and see if I can find what I’m thinking about.
RC
Richard_Coencas
Jan 5, 2004
Noel,

There have been many discussions in this forum about the best way to convert to BW. There are options inside of Elements besides remove color. Remove color basically just dials the saturation to 0%. It will give a good result on some images, but is kind of dull on many images, as you note. Especially if the image was highly saturated or vivid to begin with. There are some add-ons that will give you use of a Photoshop tool called the channel mixer, but Russell Brown, who is an Adobe evangelist has a simple technique that works in Elements without any add-ons. Try this.

Make an Hue/Saturation Adjustment layer and click OK without doing anything. Make a second Hue/Saturation Adjustment layer above the first one and drag the saturation slider to 0 (at this point you have basically the same result as Remove Color). Set the color mode of the first Hue/Saturation Adjustment layer to Color. Now double click the adjustment thumbnail in the first Hue/Saturation Adjustment layer. This brings up the Hue/Sat dialog again. You can now play with the slider, and use the drop down to pick particular color ranges to adjust as well. This gives you plenty of control over the adjustment and will allow you to make an excellent BW conversion.

To the best of my memory that is how it works. The tutorial is available online from Adobe. You can try searching for it.

Rich
MR
Mark_Reibman
Jan 5, 2004
There are several ways of doing this that give you more control over your image. Here is a really good tutorial that doesn’t require any extra plugs ins or add ons.

When you arrive at this page, click tips and go to Seeing in Black and White. You can either download the Quicktime version or the PDF file. If this doesn’t work for you, let me know and I will write it out for you.

<http://www.russellbrown.com/body.html>

Now, printing in Black and White is another subject. Do you need help with that?

Edit: I see that Rich responded as well. I guess we are in agreement on this one.
BH
Beth_Haney
Jan 5, 2004
Here’s the most recent thread I was thinking about. I think there are a couple of links to other sites where printing in black and white is discussed, too.

Hi Rich! Welcome back!
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 5, 2004
Jeez, Beth,
Just yesterday I sent you to Norman Koren’s website, you mean you haven’t read it all already ? <GRIN> . Somewhere down in <http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints4.html> is a description of Norman Koren’s old technique for printing B&W photos with color inks, and minimizing the color cast. His new technique, I believe is a $500 software package that RIP’s the image to the printer.

🙂

Brent
BH
Beth_Haney
Jan 5, 2004
Gee whiz, Brent, I was JUST getting around to that page – it was the only one I hadn’t checked yet! 🙂
MP
Marshall_Ponzi
Jan 5, 2004
I like Richard Lynch’s "Hidden Power of Photoshop Elements 2." (book and companion CD and website). This shows how to create RGB as well as Luminosity separations and provides actions to automate their creation.

I’ve had good luck creating black and white from these separations. They also make image cleanup much easier to control.

BTW. Noel’s post asked if Photoshop was a better option. No. Photoshop won’t create B&W any better than Elements. In either case you must first understand the tips and tutorials you’ll find suggested in this forum.
JH
Jim_Hess
Jan 5, 2004
If you are working with a full version of Photoshop you can go to <http://www.fredmiranda.com/> and download an action for $15 that will simulate applying any of several different color filters as well as simulate shooting with 400 ASA black and white film. Actually, the actions are pretty simple, but he has done the work of polishing everything. Unfortunately, this action will not work with Photoshop Elements. Some of his other ones will. I realize that there are probably thousands of different actions and add-ins that are available, but this one has worked quite well for me, and I think it is reasonably priced.
PA
Patti_Anderson
Jan 5, 2004
Bravo! Mr. Brown is hilarious as well as talented! Now where can we find (or how would we create) a nice color wheel (like the overlapping circles) like he has in his original picture? I think it would be fun to learn with/experiment with this in the picture.

I, by the way, have a new appreciation for Quicktime movies now that I have DSL — what a difference!

I found this awhile back, but you have to have Richard’s Hidden Power tools to do this. It’s the same idea, though, adjusting the different color channels to make your b&w look better.

< http://www.webteknique.com/tutorials/better_black_white/part _one/intro.asp>

Patti
BH
Beth_Haney
Jan 5, 2004
I figure some of you might be offended when I make a comment that sounds like I’m assuming the role of Big Brother, but here goes. After having been on the forum for quite a while, my opinion and experience is that a recommendation for another commercial product in response to a question posed by a newcomer on how to use Elements ain’t too cool. 🙂 This is an Adobe site, and people come here asking how to use their Adobe software.
MR
Mark_Reibman
Jan 5, 2004
Beth,

I think you make a good point. I would, however, consider the context here. I see some of these suggestions as an expansion on the topic for others who are interested in this subject as well and not just the original post. We gave him a technique he can use with PSE and nothing else. That technique is an excellent tool for working with B/W. I think it would be entirely different if we were just giving him nothing but techniques that required something he doesn’t already have with PSE.

Our posts frequently open up a subject that attracts a broader range of interest on the subject and in this case the intent of the posts were an effort at trying to be helpful.

Your post is a good reminder though.

Respectfully
PA
Patti_Anderson
Jan 6, 2004
I do make it habit NOT to mention these "other" add-ons for Elements. I only mentioned it here because Noel mentioned using the full Photoshop in his original post. Sorry. 🙁

To me, just like commercial plug-ins which are discussed quite freely on this forum, these things just make Elements more desirable. I certainly would never have found out about any of these without hearing about them on this forum.

I’ll be good from now on, I promise. 🙂
Patti
DS
Dick_Smith
Jan 6, 2004
Patti,

I second both your notions, Brown is indeed entertaining. And, after I downloaded the new QT they wer a joy to watch. You could certainly eat up disk space quickly!

Dick
DM
Dave_McElderry
Jan 6, 2004
Beth and all,

As a newbie here, I guess it didn’t occur to me that suggesting "other" software could inappropriate. A few days back when someone wasn’t sure that Photoshop Album was the software to fit their needs, I suggested a couple of "non-Adobe" applications that I thought might help. Although it was intended in the right spirit, when I think of it in the light of Beth’s post I realize that this was probably the wrong thing to do. I understand the need that some people have for anonymity so far as e-mail addresses go, but sometimes it would be helpful if I (we) could reply privately. It would be one way to avoid situations such as this.

In the couple of weeks that I’ve been on this forum I have to say that I have never subscribed to a more civilized, professional, helpful, and just plain fun list. Groups everywhere could learn a lot from you folks. I’ll take the hint and try not to make this kind of etiquette faux pas in the future.
BH
Beth_Haney
Jan 6, 2004
Thanks everybody for not nailing me! And I do realize the value of sharing information about advanced techniques and tools. However, there have been a few posts lately that – if I were a newcomer – might confuse me more than help me. This one probably wasn’t one of the best examples, but it’s the one that presented itself today and made me start thinking about this.

We’re all enthusiastic about Elements, and for very good reasons. It’s also exciting that so many people have spent time and energy coming up with ways to expand its power even more. I guess I just didn’t want us to lose sight of why Adobe is giving us all this space – and this freedom! I’ve been guilty of giving too much information, too, from time to time. As I’ve followed a few of these more recent threads, though, I realized some of the original posters never came back! There could be all kinds of reasons, but I wondered if it was because we get a little too enthusiastic every once in a while and scare them away?! Some people take to Elements like a duck takes to water, and others need much more help – and a lot of simplicity.

Thanks for letting me express my thoughts. I really didn’t want to take anyone to task, but I wanted to get this out on the table. If it’s been bothering me, maybe it’s been bothering someone else, too.

Cheers!
MP
Marshall_Ponzi
Jan 6, 2004
Beth:

Your points are well taken. It is important to respect the idea exchange that Adobe provides here. Personally, I learn a lot by following the suggestions on this forum (frequently your’s). This is one of the most professional, useful and civilized forums on the net.

However, I think identifying potential misuse of this forum would best be pointed at recommendations that might compete against Adobe’s products. I’m in no position to refute your position (or your knowledge of the subject matter), but I wouldn’t want to stifle "out of the box" suggestions that might prove useful either.

With respect to this particular thread, I think the "outside" product recommendations are given in the spirit of ehnancing people’s use of Elements not competing with it. No doubt, other threads might take a less desirable turn.

People like Mikkal Aaland, Richard Lynch, Fred Miranda, etc. are publishing enhancements and ideas to bring out the best in the product, not replace it. In essence, they are simply using an alternate medium to convey their ideas. I can’t see how Adobe could ever object to that kind of marketing coverage. If they didn’t want these enhancements, they wouldn’t offer SDK’s, API’s or the ability to create Actions, etc.

I think your second point (about new posters not returning) is right on. It’s really hard to know where to draw the "too much information" line. I think if people really want to know the answers, they’ll dig into the info and won’t get scared off. If they do get put off, maybe they realize they’d bitten off more than they wanted to chew on a given subject.

Occasionally, someone will innocently ask a simple question that ends up having no simple (or single) answer. How best handle that? From my perspective, I believe it best to share experiences that have worked and let the requestor use the info as they see fit.

I guess I’d prefer people focus on whether their answers are helpful or correct, rather than where they come from.

In short, all suggestions are "two cent’s worth," "for what it’s worth," do with it what you like. Things only get bad when people start attacking other people, or the topic dicussions end up getting lost in useless spewing of opinions.

My rambling here has taken topic down a useless opinion road, so ’nuff said. I’m not sure if this response is my apology for posting an outside recommendation or simply a counterpoint opinion. However, it’s not a flaming reprimand.

Regardless, I’m always appreciative of everyone’s help and courtesy on this forum.

Marshall
NH
noel_hsu
Jan 7, 2004
Dear all, thank you very much for your tips and suggestions! Much appreciated.
noel
G
GooBert
Jan 8, 2004
Personally, I don’t care for how PE2 makes a Color pic into a Black and White. I, myself can’t quite get the right color formula together to give it that crisp BW blackness. They tell you to remove the color, which almost gives it a grayscale mode. Then they tell you to Increase the Red in RGB mode the Decrease the Blue. To me, It gives it an antique appeal. I am unsatisfied in PE2 for this reason. Honestly, My "Home Deluxe" version photo editor did a much better job… *smile* That is not to say PE2 can’t produce quality BW photos, I, myself haven’t been able to find the right mix. That’s my 2cents.

GB

wrote in message
Dear all, thank you very much for your tips and suggestions! Much appreciated.
noel

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