Note to Susan S -Color management and Calibration

AM
Posted By
Al_Millstein
Jan 2, 2004
Views
1177
Replies
55
Status
Closed
Susan-

In searching forum archives, I ran across a recent post by you, where you said:

"I suspect the darkness is due to the fact that my imac (CRT) screen can’t be totally accurately profiled with the monitor panel as I can’t adjust the brightness up high enough at the start of the process to see the image within an image as requested. ( I never have been able to)
Susan S."

Have you ever resolved this? I have the same problem, if I’m understanding what you were talking about. – In Adobe Gamma I
can never get the smaller grey square within the larger black square to show up. Therefore I think my monitor is never correctly calibrated. Maybe someone on the forum knows how to adjust the scale on Adobe Gamma to get a different starting point.

Al

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BB
brent_bertram
Jan 2, 2004
Al,
That’s a physical adjustment on the CRT of your monitor. As CRT monitor age, they get dimmer. There IS a brightness adjustment, on the flyback transformer of the CRT, and I have successfully adjusted my CRT’s several times to prolong their ( calibrated ) life. It is not an adjustment for the amateur, though. I’m an electrician and a computer tech, and it still makes me nervous.
See this thread from last summer in the color management forum, brent bertram "abode gama?" 8/8/03 2:57pm </cgi-bin/webx?13/3> .

Note that the link to the flyback picture is obsolete, this one is current, < http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bbertram/Flyback.pd f>

🙂

Brent
AM
Al_Millstein
Jan 3, 2004
Brent –

If you’re nervous, I’m nervous.

I’ll leave it be, until such time as I might have an electrician or tech in.

Thanks.

Al
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 3, 2004
Brent, how do you feel about Epson’s newest baby…photo printer R800 ? What do you think about this new ink ? It’s not on the shelves yet so no reviews to be found anywhere.

Tech TV voted the 2200 has the best last night.
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 3, 2004
Don’t know, Jodi —
I’ve just started using archival ink with my Epson 890 and so far I like it a lot. I bought a do-it-yourself CFS system ( Continuous Ink Flow ) , didn’t follow the directions ( no surprise there ! ) and spent about 6 days getting it working. If it stays working , I’ll be real happy ! <G>

The inks profile well so far on Epson Lustre and Epson HeavyWeight Matte papers ( all I’ve tried so far ).

I do like the new printers’ claims to print on printable CD’s . That’s something that would be a useful feature . Print speed and ink longevity are two key factors, I think . The current printers already print great images .

🙂

Brent
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 3, 2004
Tech TV voted the 2200 has the best last night.

Jodi,
Where did you see that? I’m interested in the 2200, and I’m trying to read everything about it that I can find.
Bert
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 3, 2004
I bought a do-it-yourself CFS system

Brent,
Can you tell us a little more about that system? How does it work? Do you plug it into the cartridge "socket" somehow? Do you fill ink reservoirs and buy the ink in bulk?
Bert
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 3, 2004
Bert,
You basically buy a premade cartridge with tube system, either filled with ink, or empty . Then you plug in the inkset of your choice ( in the case of an empty system ). I bought an empty system from MIS Associates , mated it with Generations ProPhoto ink from Mediastreet ( failed to follow the directions on loading the ink, of course ), and got the two going nicely .
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bbertram/CFS1.jpg> <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bbertram/CFS2.jpg>

Note by the ink smears on the printer that my personal process is somewhat more messy than the recommended process. My new recommendation is to buy the system , prefilled with ink, from either MIS or Mediastreet, depending on which inkset you wish to use.

I am a little surprised at the quality of the color. I thought that I’d lose some of the "zip" in the images, but so far all the photos look quite good. I’d heard that pigmented ink was "less zippy" than dye based ink, but the difference is not much in this case.

🙂

Brent
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 3, 2004
Bert, the show is on tech TV> ‘ Screen Savers’…they have a website…screensavers.com

lots of good info on the show and site.
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 3, 2004
Bert, wait !!! it’s not screensavers.com….the show is " The screen Savers"… Just put that in the search box and it’s on the top of the page.
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 3, 2004
Brent,
Wow, those are BIG bottles! I see the printer says "T0007 and T0008." Those are the cartridges my Epson 780 uses. What model Epson is that?
Do you just buy the bottles of ink? Looks like you can print a LOOONG time before you need a replacement, though.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. I don’t suppose you know offhand whether such a system is available for the 2200, do you?
I suppose I could put it on my 780, but I don’t think that printer is worth the investment. Bert
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 3, 2004
Jodi,
Thanks. I’ll check it out.
Bert
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 3, 2004
My Epson is an 890, small version of the 1280 . The idea of those little bottles of ink is that they outlast about 10 cartridges or more.
The systems are available for the 2200, and most Epson printers, it seems.

🙂

Brent
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 4, 2004
Bert, the teck tv screen Savers show have a photoshop tips tomorrow morning…at 11 here. I’m doing the photoshop challenge this month on that site as well….just a little change of pace for me since they want ‘humor’. I just downloaded the pic a couple of hours ago and I’ve been playing.

Anyone interested the site is here;

<http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/index.html/>

link on right of page ‘ take the photoshop challenge’…the challenge pic is small and lousy but that makes it more of a challenge. 🙂
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 4, 2004
Jodi,
Thanks…I found the piece on the 2200 printer.
Bert
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 4, 2004
My Epson is an 890, small version of the 1280

Brent,
I have a 780, which I thought was the small version of the 1280. I see that yours used the same cartridges as mine, though. Mine is really cheaply lmade, noisy, and has a primitive paper feed mechanism which makes a really loud "POP" when it feeds each sheet. I think it’s an impact-type paper separation mechanism, but it’s annoying. The biggest problem I have though is constantly plugging heads. If I let the printer sit for more than a few days, I have to clean the heads which wastes ink. I suppose the same would be true with the feed system you have. You probably print a lot more than I do, though. If I use the printer every day or so, it doesn’t seem to be a problem. How does the cost-per-print compare to cartridges with your system?
Bert
PA
Patti_Anderson
Jan 4, 2004
Brent, how do you feel about Epson’s newest baby…photo printer R800 ? What do you think about this new ink ? It’s not on the shelves yet so no reviews to be found anywhere.

I’ve got my eye on the younger sibling of these Epson printers, the R300. I’m going to wait for some reviews before buying, but they sound like just what I’ve been wanting. Apparently someone else agrees because the Epson store is currently out of stock on them!

Patti
MR
Mark_Reibman
Jan 4, 2004
In Adobe Gamma I can never get the smaller grey square within the larger black square to show up. Therefore I think my monitor is never correctly calibrated. Maybe someone on the forum knows how to adjust the scale on Adobe Gamma to get a different starting point.

Al,

I have the same situation with my iMac. I thought that my upgrade to 10.3 correct the problem. It didn’t. My prints tend to print a little darker than what I see on my monitor so if I want the image to match the level I’m seeing I will lighten up the image by duplicating the image and adding a screen mode of about 10-20% opacity.

I had never heard anyone else mention this problem so I thought I had the only iMac in the Universe with this bug.
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 4, 2004
Bert,
"Brent,
I have a 780, which I thought was the small version of the 1280" ..

Well, as you pointed out, the 780 is pretty cheaply built, but it does use the same ink, and can turn out some great prints. My 890 is very sturdy, and was $299 when new. I see it available at Compusa, refurbed, for $99 , these days. I’m undecided about buying a spare ( I probably really should ! <G> ) . The ink for my CFS unit is about $45 for 6 4oz bottles ( dye based ink ) , and $100 for the same amount of Generations Pigment based ink . My guess is that’s the equivalent of a dozen cartridges each of black and color . The ink price of printing will go way down, once I amortize the $100 I spent for the CFS system . The payoff for me is probably a year’s worth of printing to break even.

🙂

Brent
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 4, 2004
crap, I hadn’t been able to get on yesterday eve and this morning to tell…the challenge is over as of Dec 31st on
the screen savers’ site. I overlooked the dates. The new challenge has not been posted yet.
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 4, 2004
Brent,
Do you have a head-plugging problem with the 890?
Bert
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 4, 2004
Not with dye based inks, Bert. I print something every few days and have not had any sort of problem. This morning, though, with the pigment ink, I had clogged heads and had to run the "clogged head" routine to start up. MIS suggests that anyone using pigmented inks print daily and has a Windows based utility to print something , once a day. I haven’t been working with pigment inks long enough to know what is typical behavior and what is not.

🙂

Brent
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 5, 2004
This morning, though, with the pigment ink, I had clogged heads and had to run the "clogged head" routine to start up

Brent,
So, do you go back and forth between dye and pigment-based inks, or are you going to stick with the pigment for its archival properties?
Bert
EDIT: Or is it even feasible to switch…seems like you’d have to flush the system, wasting a lot of ink….
MR
Mark_Reibman
Jan 5, 2004
In Adobe Gamma I can never get the smaller grey square within the larger black square to show up. Therefore I think my monitor is never correctly calibrated. Maybe someone on the forum knows how to adjust the scale on Adobe Gamma to get a different starting point.

Al,

I have the same situation with my iMac. I thought that my upgrade to 10.3 correct the problem. It didn’t. My prints tend to print a little darker than what I see on my monitor so if I want the image to match the level I’m seeing I will lighten up the image by duplicating the image and adding a screen mode of about 10-20% opacity.

I had never heard anyone else mention this problem so I thought I had the only iMac in the Universe with this bug.
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 5, 2004
Bert,
While it is possible to switch back and forth, I don’t see the need ( although I have done it ) . Unless the CFS unit has an original epson cart ( with poppet valves in the outlets ) removing it will introduce air into the cartridge and you have to run a recovery procedure to get rid of it.

I thought the pigment inkset would be less colorful, but I don’t see it ! My test image is a skyshot , as a storm approached Okemos, Mi, < http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bbertram/DramaticSk y.jpg> . It looks great ( and the same ) whichever inkset I use ( Remember, I’m profiling media with Monaco Ezcolor ).
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 5, 2004
Brent,
Nice picture…Where the Hell is Okemos? I’m FROM Mich, remember, and I never heard of it. Hope you’re enjoying the winter…weather is absolutely beautiful out here in California right now. Nyah, Nyah!!!
Bert
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 5, 2004
Okemos is just east of East Lansing, under 4 inches of fresh snow !

Eat your heart out !!

🙂
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 5, 2004
I just remembered…it’s that wide spot in the road where you live!
DS
Dick_Smith
Jan 5, 2004
Now, Now, Okemos is more than a "wide spot in the road"! That’s where all the VIP’s from MSU live. Along with a smattering of doctor’s and lawyer’s. <grin>

And, it used to provide a convenient back door approach to MSU stadium on football Saturdays.

Dick
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 5, 2004
That’s mostly what it’s know for, Dick . <G>

Football Saturday’s the exit ramp is jammed to over-flowing .

Mostly lawyers in my neighborhood !

🙂
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 5, 2004
Hmmmm. I thought most people in that part of Michigan headed DOWN the road to Ann Arbor if they wanted to see a football game. <grin>
DS
Dick_Smith
Jan 5, 2004
Oh, Bert! Low Blow!

Dick

EDIT: But then neither one of them advanced the Big-10 reputation much, did they.
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 6, 2004
Nope. You are right, unfortunately. I had visions of grandeur…MI beating USC and LSU beating OK…the Wolverines ending up No. 1!!
Unfortunately, they didn’t have the horses to accomplish that. Bert
J
jhjl1
Jan 6, 2004
As an LSU fan we were counting on Michigan to take care of business at the Rose Bowl so we wouldn’t have to share with the Trojans. At least you helped us by beating Ohio State, I suppose a thank you is in order. By the way, the only wager I lost on the bowl season was on Michigan. I thought Michigan would take USC apart in an unprecedented fashion.


Have A Nice Day, 🙂
James Hutchinson
http://www.pbase.com/myeyesview
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 6, 2004
By the way, the only wager I lost on the bowl season was on Michigan. I thought Michigan would take USC apart in an unprecedented fashion

I was hoping for the same. Unfortunately for us both…didn’t happen. bert
CS
Chuck_Snyder
Jan 6, 2004
Well, I’m happy….my alma mater won the undisputed championship…of Division 1AA! (No BCS BS in that division…)
🙂
J
JesusIsGod
Jan 6, 2004
Hi All,

In case anyone’s still interested in color calibration 🙂 here’s what I’ve found since joining the forum:

1a) I’m afraid the hardware calibration route recommended in an answer to my post awhile back is the way to go, at least it was in my case. Adobe Gamma did not do the job for me. Per a suggestion here and on a couple of other forums recommended here I bought a Spyder for $300 but it calibrated my monitor color quite well – also much less expensive than the Eye-One for $1500.

1b) That still does not solve the issue of matching the monitor profiles to the printer profiles, which are completely separate. Thankfully my Epson Stylus Photo 825 colors match my monitor colors but I still plan on contacting ColorVision (makers of Spyder) to see if their $300 printer calibration package synchs up the two profiles through their software. If so then I’ll probably buy it in the future.

2) Regarding the Adobe black/gray squares, I can see them if I look at an angle instead of straight into my monitor. I found out by trying to adjust Adobe Gamma that my monitor has no contrast control. However, I can match the print contrast to the monitor contrast by adding +20 to the contrast control in the Epson printer control panel.

3) Use paper that is matched to your printer. Jodi really helped me by recommending that. I was using Kodak paper, which had a persistent blue cast in my case. Switching to Epson paper corrected that. You should test with the printer vendor’s paper first before calibrating with other papers to eliminate one critical variable.

But by all means, if Adobe Gamma works for you, please do use it – it’s far cheaper than a Spyder!

Cheers,
Robert Ash
SS
Susan_S.
Jan 10, 2004
Sorry I never replied to this one – I’ve been at a beach house for a week (with no phone let alone the internet – don’t be too jealous – it was one of those "you should have beeen here last week the weather was gorgeous" weeks.)

No I never fixed up the problem – and while 10.3 has fixed up some colour management issues for me – colorsync now works to give decent prints – I still can’t get the screen bright enough to correctly callibrate my CRT imac. And as imac screens are integrated I have no hardware controls to fiddle with.

Susan S.
BB
Barbara_Brundage
Jan 10, 2004
Susan, try looking in universal access, but don’t move it much.

I still am totally stymied by color management in panther. All my printers print the same thing, but the color values do not in any way resemble the monitor. I have been trying for 3 months and I have literally tried every possible combination of settings in both PE and photoshop. 8^(
BH
Beth_Haney
Jan 10, 2004
Hmmmmm. 🙂
BB
Barbara_Brundage
Jan 10, 2004
Yeah, Beth, but to be fair you’ll note that Susan says she’s getting decent prints. I spent another couple of hours messing with this last night and no matter how I calibrate the monitor there’s a strong value shift in printing. At least it’s the same shift with all printers if they are at the same settings, but still…

Particularly annoying because I was getting spectacular prints in jag.
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 10, 2004
I was using Kodak paper, which had a persistent blue cast in my case. Switching to Epson paper corrected that.

I had exactly the same experience Robert did. Epson printers do not seem to like Kodak paper. Darker images with a pronounced blue cast, especially noticeable in skin tones. I now use only Epson Matte Heavyweight paper with my Epson printer.
Bert
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 10, 2004
Bert have you tried the Epson Color Life yet ? I really like the semi gloss that I bought but use it for the ‘special…really special prints’ cause it only allows for high resolution print settings though ( 1440+…anything under is greyed out ).
BB
brent_bertram
Jan 10, 2004
Jodi,
I get real good results with the colorlife, also . The only part I hate is that it is not at all waterproof, and you have to be careful with it. Nice color, though, and nice "grain".

🙂

Brent
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 10, 2004
well Brent, let’s not take our prints in the shower… OK ? 😉

No, seriously though…instructions say to let ‘dry’ for 24 hours before inserting in frame or album etc…and the rest is common sense stuff….well, to me it is anyways. When selling prints what do you tell your customer ? " Don’t
get it wet…don’t hang it in the bathroom…don’t sunbathe with it"..good enough ?
BH
Beth_Haney
Jan 10, 2004
Never show a fresh print to the dog, either. They look at everything with their tongue – or at least mine does. 🙂
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 10, 2004
Yup…or a kid !!! ‘ look but don’t touch is not in their control panel 😉
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 10, 2004
Jodi,
No, I haven’t tried ColorLife yet. I’ve also used the Epson Double Sided Matte, which is good for making greeting cards, etc. It’s a little heavier weight than the Matte Heavyweight (9.7 vs. 9 mil).
Bert
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 10, 2004
Bert, i ordered my Epson greeting card paper direct from the on line Epson store. It’s just really too easy making cards using the Epson film Factory since the paper is made for the software. I haven’t tried the double sided yet….I guess I’m happy with what i have…so far 😉
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 10, 2004
It’s just really too easy making cards using the Epson film Factory since the paper is made for the software

Jodi,
What is the Epson film factory?
Bert
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 10, 2004
Bert, photo software that comes with Epson printers.
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 10, 2004
This is what’s in the 1280;

Epson Software™ Film Factory™
Adobe® Photoshop® Elements 2.0
P.I.M. Plug-In for Adobe® Photoshop® 6.0, 7.0 and Elements 1.0 and 2.0 MonacoEZcolor® software offer

I don’t have P.i.m camera though….ALSO, rebate for Adobe CS in the box.
B
Bobs
Jan 11, 2004
On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:56:17 -0800, wrote:

Hi All,

In case anyone’s still interested in color calibration 🙂 here’s what I’ve found since joining the forum:

1a) I’m afraid the hardware calibration route recommended in an answer to my post awhile back is the way to go, at least it was in my case. Adobe Gamma did not do the job for me. Per a suggestion here and on a couple of other forums recommended here I bought a Spyder for $300 but it calibrated my monitor color quite well – also much less expensive than the Eye-One for $1500.

1b) That still does not solve the issue of matching the monitor profiles to the printer profiles, which are completely separate. Thankfully my Epson Stylus Photo 825 colors match my monitor colors but I still plan on contacting ColorVision (makers of Spyder) to see if their $300 printer calibration package synchs up the two profiles through their software. If so then I’ll probably buy it in the future.

2) Regarding the Adobe black/gray squares, I can see them if I look at an angle instead of straight into my monitor. I found out by trying to adjust Adobe Gamma that my monitor has no contrast control. However, I can match the print contrast to the monitor contrast by adding +20 to the contrast control in the Epson printer control panel.

3) Use paper that is matched to your printer. Jodi really helped me by recommending that. I was using Kodak paper, which had a persistent blue cast in my case. Switching to Epson paper corrected that. You should test with the printer vendor’s paper first before calibrating with other papers to eliminate one critical variable.

But by all means, if Adobe Gamma works for you, please do use it – it’s far cheaper than a Spyder!
Cheers,
Robert Ash

I’ve tried calibrating my monitor with Adobe Gamma, and it seems to be OK, but you have to be careful about what your setup color temp is adjusted to (at least for LCDs). I set my desktop to have a 128, 128, 128 grey–measuring this with a lab colorimeter showed only a slight (3%) deviation from a neutral tone that was easiliy adjusted out. Have also tried the ColorVision OptiCAL/Spyder system (2 samples). It works OK, but I’m still not convinced that it’s a great improvement over simpler methods, at least with LCDs (mine is a ViewSonic VX2000).

Most seem overly concerned with printer profiles, since printers generally just expect an accurate sRGB (usually converted from RGB) image without any special profiling, other than their own specific drivers for paper types. I’ve tried various profiles, including those created by the ColorVision Profiler Plus system, and the results do not appear to me any better than simply delivering a well-adjusted sRGB image that has been edited with a calibrated monitor. This also applies to images that are taken to fast-processing outlets, since almost all of these now expect sRGB inputs without special profiling (Frontier, Noritsu, Fuji).

There has been some discussion regarding just what sRGB really is, and how many flavors of this "standard" that are in popular use. I’ve never had any problem with the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile included with Photoshop (and presumably with Elements). When my reflection photometer gets here I’ll have a chance to assess this more accurately.

One handy trick is to take a well-adjusted image and replicate it as a matrix of up to 24 tiny images that fit on a single 8.5X11 sheet. Then convert each of these images using every profile you can find, and use this as a test print. Be sure to add descriptive text to each image that can be read in the print. Sure it’s crude, but it can save you a lot of paper and ink, and is a quick way to deal with 3rd party inks and unknown papers. Another helpful tool is the plugin "Test Strip" by VividDetails.
DS
Dick_Smith
Jan 11, 2004
Jodi,

I notice the 1280 is "out of stock" at the Epson Store. Do you know if that model has been discontinued?

Dick
JF
Jodi_Frye
Jan 11, 2004
Dick, that is the question isn’t it. There are still some re-sellers…plenty but I’m thinking Epson is working on another bad boy wide format so it will be the one I’ll be waiting for. At the moment the R800 is the newest kid which isn’t even on the shelf yet but only up to 8 X 10’s on that one if I remember correctly….I’ll be looking forward to the reviews since this one will probably be a prior step to another 1280 twin in ‘R’ format….but always bigger and better. Will see. I’d buy the 1280 now if I could get it dirt cheap.
BB
Bert_Bigelow
Jan 11, 2004
I’d buy the 1280 now if I could get it dirt cheap.

me too, Jodi, but I never see any sales on the 1280 in the local hi-tech ads. I’m leaning toward the 2200, but the ink cost is daunting. Brent Bertram may have found the solution with the MIS CFM ink system…he says the ink is a LOT cheaper that way.
I need to find out if that ink system will work on the 2200. If it does, I will probably buy it eventually.
Right now, we’re redoing the "office." We bought a bunch of tables at Ikea today…Now we have to rip out the carpet, repaint, install a tile floor, put all my wife’s travel stuff back up, including her world map that shows how may countries she has visited…currently about 90. She is DETERMINED to get to 100 and join the Century Club before she hits the "magic" number. I won’t tell you what it is, but it’s somewhere between 69 and 71.
Bert

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