The CMYK Profile was needed to generate the C, M, Y and K (and particularly the K) plates from your RGB file. Once the files are converted to CMYK the profile has no further role to play — unless someone wants to convert them back to a different color space.
I would not mix RGB and CMYK images in the same InD document. I make my CMYK conversions from flattened copies of my Master (layered) RGBs in Photoshop and then place the CMYKs in the InD document.
When you Export to PDF:
In the "Advanced" panel, set Color to "Leave Unchanged".
Ann: Do you always work in RGB (until the final placement)? Do you have to reimport all your images or do you simply move the RGB files out of current folder and relink to the cmyk versions? I’ve worked in RGB on occasion but after over 10 years in cmyk, making accurate color adjustment eludes me in RGB.
Ann I’m letting ID do the CMYK conversion as the last step. this saves me from having 2 versions of any one file and gives me live editing of any file without having to make a second file that needs to be relinked.
Also when you export to PDF/X-1a you can’t leave leave color unchanged it converts all to CMYK profile chosen. that’s why I asked the question what happens if one of the CMYK profiles does not match. If the profile is the same nothing will happen. but if it is different is that like using convert to profile in photoshop?
would it be best to convert the CMYK files to the target profile before placing in ID?
I can’t use an RGB workflow due to the simple fact that you can’t edit an image in a 3 color space, destined for four.
You can’t just take 3% magenta out of an image.
If I need that kind of control I will make a CMYK file but it will have the matching or correct profile to match ID. My question is what will happen to the CMYK file with the miss matched profile?
If color mgmt. is on in INDY, and the color spaces are the same, nothing should happen. If they are different, you will get a conversion.
IF color mgmt. is off, nothing will happen.
If you have a mixed bag of RGB and CMYK files within a INDY document, buy aspirin.
If you have a mixed bag of RGB and CMYK files within a INDY document, buy aspirin.
Even if color managment is on and all color spaces match?
INDY 2 color mgmt. was a real mess. I haven’t had time to test INDY 3 with respect to this subject, but Bruce was saying it "should" be okay when we spoke about this subject.
If it doesn’t function as such, like you want it to, it should, but a lot of things are still very broken in the softwares.
Just test the thesis by creating a PDF.
Just test the thesis by creating a PDF.
I will. I was just wondering how ID would handle the CMYK with the miss-matched profile. would it convert the profile just like photoshop would or would it get mangled. Or is the convert to profile going to mangle it anyway?
The answer is in the question.
OK.
Since I’m out of my mind at this point…..
I need any and all color retouchers in the greater Bay Area to contact me off list for employment in the financial district of San Francisco.
and sure, kick me out of the forums for doing this.
I can’t use an RGB workflow due to the simple fact that you can’t edit an image in a 3 color space, destined for four. You can’t just take 3% magenta out of an image.
My thinking exactly.
Mike, I think Adobe should have a "Help Wanted" forum.
(they should’ve kicked you for other reasons, not this : )
yea, but I’m worth a lot more alive than dead to Adobe.
<< Ann: Do you always work in RGB (until the final placement)? Do you have to reimport all your images or do you simply move the RGB files out of current folder and relink to the cmyk versions? >>
I NEVER place RGB files in an InDesign document which is intended for press output.
I do all Photoshop work in my Master Layered RGB file.
I then make a flattened COPY of the Master file and convert that flattened RGB file to CMYK using a suitable profile and black generation for each file. The resulting CMYK files are placed in an all-CMYK InDesign document and PDF’s are then made with "Leave Color Unchanged" selected.
[(Buko: I don’t use PDF/X and no-one has yet complained about my PDFs!]
<< I’ve worked in RGB on occasion but after over 10 years in cmyk, making accurate color adjustment eludes me in RGB. >>
It really is very easy if you remember that Cyan is the converse of Red; Magenta of Green; and Yellow of Blue.
Just mentally swap-over the corners of your Curves palette in your mind’s eye.
The physical adjustments to the pixels and blending modes are not the same between the two modes.
RGB workflow for a CMYK environment is a reject in commercial print.
But working in RGB before converting a flattened file to CMYK is normal procedure — after all your images (whether scanned from film or captured by digicam) start life in RGB.
As for making color adjustments in RGB, why is there a problem? You have the ability to see CMYK readouts in the Info palette; a calibrated monitor and View/Proof Colors; and editable Curves.
Why would you need anything else?
"You have the ability to see CMYK readouts in the Info palette; a calibrated monitor and View/Proof Colors; and editable Curves."
but Ann, you can’t play with CYMK channels in levels for instance because they are still in RGB. You have the read out but you cant yank up the M channel on its own using some tools.
If profiles are so solid i dont see however why there isnt a "preview" toolset to go with the cymk preview.
As for Buko’s question, without knowing the exact workflow he’s playing with, i’ve learnt to bolt all ambiguities down as much as possible in nested workflows…it makes for less of a headache. Sure it may work one day, but i bet you theres a day when it doesnt when you want to rely on the planets being in alignment.
I would be interested to know if it would be converted or whether a profile would be assigned…and whether the preview is previewing the correct profile view either way.
If I had the time, I’d send you examples.
Because of the whole CS thing where all apps are in sync with each other(?) I was wanting to use an RGB workflow right up to the point of making the PDF in ID. Yesterday I got to thinking what if I had that odd CMYK profile mixed in.
If I’m making an RGB to CMYK conversion what does it matter if I make the conversion in Photoshop or ID if the conversion is the same.
I do realize that If I make the conversion in Photoshop I can tweek the image.
I guess I need to look up the old threads on CMYK to CMYK conversion.
And I need to read up more on color profiles. They’ve been around a while now but I’ve never used them and still am not exactly sure what value they have and why I should want to use them. To that end, I purchased my first PS CIB in nearly 10 year. Taking a refresher course during slow periods in summer in PS which isn’t my strong suit though I can get done what I need to get done. Between Sandee’s ID book and PS CIB, I’m hoping to sharpen my skills a bit.
<< I do realize that If I make the conversion in Photoshop I can tweek the image. >>
That is why I do the CMYK conversion in Photoshop.
You also may want to use different versions of K-generation for individual images.
But always keep you layered RGB Master files too.
There are many reasons why you don’t want to do what I would call blind conversions. One of which is the simple fact that you can’t preview the interaction of black generation. If a page layout application had the ability to view separations, than it would help the evaluation process, but in general, letting blind conversions control you instead of visa verse-a is a bad idea. Than again, it all depends upon the kind of work you do.
You have to realize that the quality of a separation and the destination of a separation are two VERY different realities. A page layout separation doesn’t work for high end seps and should be avoided if at all possible.
Other than that, I think it’s a bad idea.
You can’t really see any interaction of black generation on a composite image anyway (yes, you can view individual channels and a guy like Mo can probably spot an issue looking at one color channel). Most can’t. However, I do agree with Mo that in RIP conversions are iffy. If you have a catalog of 500 widgets on a white bkgnd, I’m OK with picking a single rendering intent and profile for all the images. Or working with newsprint (if color hits the paper, most people are happy). But if ultimate quality and control are your game, then doing the conversions in Photoshop viewing each image, picking specific rendering intents based on image content and perhaps using a family of the same CMYK output profile with different GCR settings (again based on image content) will provide the best quality output.
The other issue is having separated CMYK files in a page layout doc will provide the least possibility that someone down the line will hose the color. It can still happen but it’s less likely.
Keep in mind that profiles don’t know squat about images (only an output device). So one type of CMYK profile with a specific GCR setting and rendering intent can play a pretty significant role on the ultimate color compared to a different setting. You just have to look at the image and have some human intervention and intelligence over the process for best quality work. Profiles are not that smart!
Thanks for all the info.
please keep it coming.
The original question was specific to the Creative Suite apps ID and PS and the conversion that was made when exporting to PDF. I’m going to play with this for a while because the whole work in RGB and only convert to CMYK when exporting to PDF is very intriguing to me.
Other than doing a few tests at first, You have all convinced me to stick with placing CMYK images in ID.
Buko:
In theory, page layout seps. are the drug of choice for shops who are "just pushing" work through the shop. The, problems come into play when a client doesn’t like what they see on the proof and proceeds to make edits to the image(s).
Well….what happens when the job was separated on multiple machines and or as well as in RIP or out of INDY to a PDF?
What about the rendering intents?
What about the color engine?
WTF are you going to do to get the file to match the proof before you edit it?
………………………..
OH yea!
Well you have hell. No wait, prepress is worse than hell…
yea, ok, I’ll take hell any day!
anyway.
Andrew,
I’m still at work doing the 120 hour work week, "iron man triathalon" ..
We’ll speak soon or die. Which ever comes first..
Buko- stop doing in RIP conversions because it will cost you time and money at some point in your life…
I don’t know mow many times the job was signed off, but the art director decited to keep going…..
and going, and going….
I’m still at work doing the 120 hour work week, "iron man triathalon" ..
I’m not as bad, but in the same boat with the overtime. Only I get to say when I need to stay. (which is all the time) No, really I only do 5 hours a week to 10.
What is the deal with prepress? I guess we’re not that important.
As far as your question, Mike:
I do not have ID, although I’m pushing for it. For flexo process work, most of our files are Photoshop. We need to change them to CMYK for print and remove 1 and 2%’s, because the plates will not hold it. But, on the other hand, if it’s a photograqh, you don’t want 0%’s im the middle either.
That’s why we do a Cromilyn proof on every flexo job. It’s very true to press, but not exact. Only a press proof will give you exact results.
Oh, and by the way, prepress is not worse than Hell. Waitressing is!
at least in a restaurant, you get a tip.
Damn, you know how long it took me to type that!:)
No, you did not always get a tip, and you work way below minimum wage. and you have no health benifits, no weekends, no holidays…
So…
I’ve been in pre-press since whenever, and at everyplace I’ve worked I’ve gotten tips.
Of course it’s always the same tip:
"Get out of printing if you can!" <g>
I’m thinking of closing my print shop and opening a service bureau – not! Whenever I get discouraged about shrinking profit margin, I think of all my friends who had service bureaus and are now out of business or scrambling to reposition themselves as printers of some sort or another. As it is, I need film for a job at my local offset house – the polyester plate isn’t holding the reg – and I can’t find anyone that outputs film! And to think at one time I ordered nearly $80,000 of film a year.
everything is going to go to Asia at some point in time so you won’t have to worry about it.
