Yesterday, I called Adobe to ask a question about missing and incorrect documentation in their docs for version 6 of Acrobat.
The issue is somewhat pressing because it has kept me from using custom JavaScripts in batch processing. I won’t go into details here but basically the information is either incomplete or describes conditions that don’t exist as they describe it in the docs.
The question is possibly related to some kind of installation error by the install app or incorrect documentation or both, this is unclear. I tried getting help on the forum: many good folks on both platforms have been very helpful and I have few more things to try but it is difficult to know without getting some info from the horse’s mouth.
So I called Adobe to activate the Tech support policy that i was informed of when I purchased the upgrade to version 6 several months ago. This is 30 or 90 days depending on the product you purchase or upgrade.
I rarely call Tech support, I try and save it for those rare occasions when all else fails and documentation fails to cover the subject.
So I get on the phone with some individual who takes my identifying info and then comments about the amount of software that I own from Adobe and how long I have had this software. I say, "That’s right" and she asks me what the issue is. I explain that many folk on the forum, as well as myself, are stumped about a feature issue, what it is, and the lack of info in the docs.
She then launches into a pitch for the yearly help support service. I agree it is a reasonable deal but I am under my promised 90 days and the issue is possibly software related. She then tells me that Adobe has changed their Tech support policy and I no longer get the Tech support time I was promised when I purchased the upgrade and for that matter I would lose all the other Tech support on all other recently purchased products from Adobe.
She then told me that this change happened about 3 months ago. I remarked that my products had been purchased before this and wouldn’t I be grand fathered in since this was a credibility issue and an agreement that Adobe had with me as a customer? She said no and that Adobe reserved the right change their policy at any time they pleased. I asked her how I could buy anything from Adobe including their Tech support deal and trust that they would keep their word? She just repeated herself.
I then asked how we would determine if it was an install problem or defect and not subject to payment? She told me that I had to give her a credit card number and the Tech support guy would determine that. She would not let me talk to someone unless I gave her a credit card number, when I asked how I could pay for something in advance of knowing its value or give someone access to my account and then be at their mercy? She then told me rather tartly that she had explained the policy to me and hung up on me.
What has happened at Adobe? I do not see how Adobe expects customers to trust them and buy their products if they feel they can change the definition of the value at will. I don’t know about other Adobe product docs but Acrobat’s are appalling. Is it Adobe’s new policy to degrade or eliminate documentation so that we are forced into these arrangements?
How will a customer know when they a product that they have the information they need to use it? This is akin to extortion. I think that I am, and other customers are going to need to be very carefull before they purchase from Adobe.
Yesterday, I called Adobe to ask a question about missing and incorrect documentation in their docs for version 6 of Acrobat.
The issue is somewhat pressing because it has kept me from using custom JavaScripts in batch processing. I won’t go into details here but basically the information is either incomplete or describes conditions that don’t exist as they describe it in the docs.
The question is possibly related to some kind of installation error by the install app or incorrect documentation or both, this is unclear. I tried getting help on the forum: many good folks on both platforms have been very helpful and I have few more things to try but it is difficult to know without getting some info from the horse’s mouth.
So I called Adobe to activate the Tech support policy that i was informed of when I purchased the upgrade to version 6 several months ago. This is 30 or 90 days depending on the product you purchase or upgrade.
I rarely call Tech support, I try and save it for those rare occasions when all else fails and documentation fails to cover the subject.
So I get on the phone with some individual who takes my identifying info and then comments about the amount of software that I own from Adobe and how long I have had this software. I say, "That’s right" and she asks me what the issue is. I explain that many folk on the forum, as well as myself, are stumped about a feature issue, what it is, and the lack of info in the docs.
She then launches into a pitch for the yearly help support service. I agree it is a reasonable deal but I am under my promised 90 days and the issue is possibly software related. She then tells me that Adobe has changed their Tech support policy and I no longer get the Tech support time I was promised when I purchased the upgrade and for that matter I would lose all the other Tech support on all other recently purchased products from Adobe.
She then told me that this change happened about 3 months ago. I remarked that my products had been purchased before this and wouldn’t I be grand fathered in since this was a credibility issue and an agreement that Adobe had with me as a customer? She said no and that Adobe reserved the right change their policy at any time they pleased. I asked her how I could buy anything from Adobe including their Tech support deal and trust that they would keep their word? She just repeated herself.
I then asked how we would determine if it was an install problem or defect and not subject to payment? She told me that I had to give her a credit card number and the Tech support guy would determine that. She would not let me talk to someone unless I gave her a credit card number, when I asked how I could pay for something in advance of knowing its value or give someone access to my account and then be at their mercy? She then told me rather tartly that she had explained the policy to me and hung up on me.
What has happened at Adobe? I do not see how Adobe expects customers to trust them and buy their products if they feel they can change the definition of the value at will. I don’t know about other Adobe product docs but Acrobat’s are appalling. Is it Adobe’s new policy to degrade or eliminate documentation so that we are forced into these arrangements?
How will a customer know when they a product that they have the information they need to use it? This is akin to extortion. I think that I am, and other customers are going to need to be very carefull before they purchase from Adobe.
This is common practice at most software companies. This is standard procedure at Microsoft and Intuit, just to name two. In the instances where I have paid for such support more often than not the answer was wrong or incomplete or there was no solution for what was a bug in the software: no refunds for the bad advice you paid for. The software licenses we agree to without reading, having no choice in the matter anyway, prior to installing the software usually tells you have bought a license to use and not the program itself and that the publisher is immune from any defects contained within the program. If you do not agree you are SOL as you already opened the software and stores will not accept it for return.
Phosphor, well here is the rantor’s response, since the point has escaped you. If you had read the the post you would realize it has nothing really to do with Acrobat the policy is for all adobe software. Think about it.
Ramone, I cross posted to the software that I own from Adobe and it was not all of it. It is the short list, some of it, like Photoshop and Illustrator, going back to 1986.
Buko, I already had my taste of Quark when they bought mTropolis, one of the best multimedia applications ever built, and then killed it. Much like when Adobe recently killed LiveMotion.
I think what you and I all need to remember is that we don’t have to take this lying down if we don’t say something they will not know. their not going to get it with their highly manipulated surveys.
We, as customers, have some minimal rights. Don’t we?
Yah, and companies wonder why people and businesses are so reluctant to fork out the money for stuff. They are rapidly getting it so you are better of to steal it then buy it. If all you get any more for your money is bugs, security holes, activation and no technical support why pay so much for the software. Seems to me the prices should be dropping since the worth of the product is dropping.
I also think it would be interesting to file a law suite against Adobe for breech of contract. It wouldn’t surprise me of you couldn’t win since you wouldn’t be getting what you paid for and yes you did pay for the 90 days or 30 days of free support.
Oh, to be rich! You could have a lot of fun going after companies over things like this.
Has anyone else had this experience with tech support? I’m not questioning Garrett, I just want to know if tech support was having a bad day or if this is really their new policy. Below is the stated policy by Adobe right now on this web site:
"Register the current versions of your eligible Adobe product and receive complimentary, person-to-person support on issues related to installation and product defects.
When you call, a technical support representative will determine if your support issue qualifies for complimentary or paid support. So that we can maintain a high level of person-to-person support, we require that you provide credit card information when you call in the event that your support issue doesn’t qualify for complimentary support."
Second, you have cross-posted a long rant to many of these User-to-User forums. We are all users like you, and it’s very inconsiderate of you to clutter the forums like this.
You may well have reasons to be upset. Write to Adobe or talk to a supervisor, that would count for something. Ranting and venting here won’t even get you a cup of coffee. That’s the point.
Even though the 90-day support period apparently begins not on your date-of-purchase but on the date of your first request for support, your only grandfathering basis would be for 90 days after the change in policy—and that 90 days had elapsed when you called. I rule in favor of the defendant! 🙂
I’ve called tech support maybe twice since I bought PS4/5/7, illy 7 & 8 and Pagemaker 6.5 back starting in ’98. In fact I avoid tech support in all hardware/sw issues as much as possible and try to either fix it myself, live with it or come up with a work around.
Have Adobe really laid off some of their tech support staff? I guess they realized many come to the forums to get their issues answered for free and don’t need them, now.
I guess the only alternative is to lighten up and take on the mantra this brilliant corporation adopted:
John what you seem to be missing is that web page you keep directing me to is new, in the last three months, as well as the information given me by the phone individual.
It is not the original stated policy when I purchased the product.
And by the way I have not triggered the former Tech support policy for my latest version of Photoshop, Illustrator or Acrobat, I lost all of them.
This is as much a matter of honor and principal as commercial interest. But how will we have successful commercial arrangement if one party reserves the right to change it at will after the fact? Thus the question: what are we buying when we buy software?
I already know we don’t own it, just the right to use it. But what is next are we going to separate the use from the knowledge of how to use it. Software is powerful and complex and I spend alot of time learning it. But we at the mercy of companies if they decide to hold back critical information after we purchase the product for some kind of fee.
I repeat that this sets up a conflict of interest: what is the motivation to produce accurate and timely documentation if the knowledge to use it becomes a new profit center?
I am a long term user of all the products whose forums I posted this message. Photoshop 1986 Illustrator 1988 InDesign since first version Acrobat since version 3 After Effects since version 3 LiveMotion since first version And Pagemaker and Golive since before Adobe acquired them.
I also teach advanced courses in these applications at local colleges.
I don’t come to Tech support because I am too lazy to do my own work, I come to Tech support when all other avenues have been exhausted. This should not really matter because the policy was ’30 or 90 days after the first call’.
Garrett, There are a few very smart guys hanging out in the Acrobat forum (Aandy and Sonic among them). Try to get their attention to get your problem solved.
Ramón, first off let me apologize for the miss spelling of your name, no disrespect was intended. I am a less than stellar typist.
I have to say that I am saddened by your response, it is not unique. I do not feel that I was ranting or spamming. If you read my post carefully you will see that I am not attacking Adobe, I do not call them names, or raise my voice in capital letters.
I consider all the people that I deal with on the Adobe forums my colleagues. i am proud to be affiliated with them and I have the personal policy of answering 2 questions for every one I ask. You will more responses to peoples posts than what i ask.
Adobe gives us as customers little opportunity to dialog with them, but let me caveat this with the experience that not all divisions are the same. The InDesign forum has a feature request area and people from Adobe actually contribute, Acrobat does none of this.
But this is not an Acrobat issue. It is a policy issue affecting all Adobe software. The wall around Adobe seems to get higher and higher. It would be very hard to get a manager to speak with when the rep you are speaking with hangs up on you and she will not transfer you until you give your credit card number and leave yourself at the mercy of someone you do not know or have had any dealing with.
These forums are the only place to find some element of justice. And as misguided or naive as it might sound I honestly thought I was helping not only my fellow Adobe product users but Adobe itself because I believe this policy will eventually hurt Adobe. i depend on Adobe to make great products and offer great service I do not wish them harm.
Laurentiu, that is a beautiful name. Where is that from?
I have had the pleasure of both Aandi’s and Sonic’s brain muscle on other occasions.
Sonic has not weighed in on this post but Aandi has and another brilliant pebble George Johnson and many others. But this kind of exemplifies the point I am making in my complaint. No matter how experienced and smart we are, we are dependent on the company who produces the software to provide accurate information.
Here is the Acrobat Mac thread… Garrett Cobarr "Folder level JavaScripts?" 7/3/04 2:53pm </cgi-bin/webx?13/9>
And here is the Acrobat Windows thread… Garrett Cobarr "Folder level JavaScripts?" 6/30/04 12:35pm </cgi-bin/webx?13/9>
We have stomped on the problem fairly hard with the best minds but it keeps coming back to inaccurate, or incomplete docs or a defect and now no Tech support.
Yes, I would be frustrated, Garret. But I would not react to my frustration by writing such long, frankly boring diatribes in all these User-to-User forums and thereby causing frustration to my fellow forum users.
As I and others have told you, it does you no good whatsoever; neither does it contribute anything to others.
Just go complain where it counts. It counts for nothing here.
I posted that link for Adobe’s current policy stance on this for other users to view.
My opinion regardless of the change in policy is that your issue is not covered. The spirit of support for purchased software is for installation and performance of the general application.
My opinion does not matter and my impression of this matter is put off by posting the exact message in 8 fora that I am aware of.
I know you are frustrated and wish to elicit a discussion. I also am not discounting your point of view.
As for Adobe requiring a credit card number first before initiating the support, I am greatly annoyed at it. Was it initiated to curb frivolous claims? If so, it is a pita for legitimate claims and fuels the fire for an already frustrating issue.
Your first mistake IMO is telling them you have a credit card to begin with. Hang up and call again and you’ll probably get someone else with a different set of policy parameters. Have you actually read the entire policy? You think that customer service person knows it front to back? Just like law, everything’s interprative.
I’ve dealt with Apple and Epson the same way and got a free OS cd replacement and a free updated Epson PostScript driver that I don’t use, anyway. I did it on principle alone. I had to call several times until I reached a supervisor or someone friendlier and more informed.
When I reach a tech support or customer service person located in Bangalore, India, I tell them I’m glad they have jobs and to not let the chemical corporations pollute their country. They get real chatty and helpful after that.
Whatever you do, don’t take no for an answer. Sometimes you gotta use guerilla tactics. I’ve gone as far as make up a problem that fits within their policy agreement but can easily link to the real problem when mentioned in conversation while they’re on the phone. I got lots of info going that route. I told them I didn’t have a credit card right up front.
In the long run they all make you work to get what you want.
Tim, thanks for the real world, where the rubber hits the road kind of advice. I will give it another shot, and per your advice, a third or fourth time. What games we must play.
It seems Adobe is following the lead of other software vendors: provide less, charge more. Customer service at many places is a joke and documentation is universally appalling.
For example: IMO, the last really useful User Guide for Photoshop was the one for version 4 (never saw the one for 5.x). The ones since then really haven’t been up to snuff… but I guess we should be grateful that the software comes with any printed documentation at all. But if they are going to the trouble and expense of printing it, should it not be useful and accurate?
Garrett has had a bad experience. How much of the blame for it lies with Adobe’s policies I do not know. But I do know that in the areas of product documentation and product development (PS CS: It’s so flawless that there will be no .01 release) the goal seems to be to provide only enough value to keep the customer coming back.
In a way, I think this is preferable. If you know in advance that the book is worthless, you can opt out and put the money toward Real World PS.
Given the current attitude of most businesses, the quest for ever increasing profitability (at the expense of their loyal employee’s livelihoods, product quality and customer service) is not going away anytime soon. Thus, all the things we gripe about will only get worse. Adobe should remember how it got where it is. They don’t sit atop the heap because they emulated Quark. It should also know that there will come a time when "Adobe" is spoken of in the past tense. That time can come sooner rather than later.
Here again just to answer his question.. the location of his app level javascript which BTW technical support would not have helped him with because there expert support does not help the customer with custom scripts… its in x:/program files/adobe/acrobat 6.0/acrobat/javascript/ As far as the anger towards the support. I don’t see anything wrong with calling up and having to pay 39 bucks for someone to tell me how to do something when i am to lazy to look it up in the manual or learn how to use the application… There is a huge amount of resources for all the adobe apps on the net..
On top of that the issue of the credit card… you could get any adobe customer service agent and they will give you the same wrap its there current policy…. I mean if you have an install issue or a product defect issue then its free. if you have garrett’s issue which is not even supported under adobe technical support policy this would call you 39 bucks because its not an install issue or a product defect
so what your saying is that you know that he wouldnt have been helped after paying for it, but that shouldnt be considered to be a problem even though when he bought it he was told it would be free.???
so his gripes are
1) they should honour the free agreement
2) you should know before being charged whether its solvable
3) if you pay for a service it doesnt matter how little of the manual you understand, that what the point of the service is.
actual he would not have even been charged for the call… the tech would have said hey this is outta our support boundry thanks for calling adobe and hung up… I mean its the tech that has the final say as to wether he gets charged and he would not have been charged for the call because the tech could not provide any level of service to the customer
I already posted a response to Andrew about this in another forum so I will not repeat it here.
To the characterization that I am lazy. I have owned some Adobe software for a decade+ and have called Tech support a handful of times. I have been a 100% on each of these calls in the identification of a known or unknown bug or documentation misprint. For this and other reasons is why Adobe has invited me to and I have participated in several beta test programs.
My manuals are dog eared and I spend hundreds of dollars on third party books when required. I do not call to get someone to do my work, I like doing my work. I call when something is wrong or missing.
FYI on Acrobat. It was clearly rushed to market partially completed. not only does the program’s interface reflect that but so does its documentation. It is clear that to save time or money they lifted material from version 5 and stuck it into version 6, much of this documentation is wrong or incomplete.
Adobe makes a lot of marketing talk about batch processing but you are not to get very far if you don’t know where to put them. There is no real way to test this so without this information you are stuck. Both Mac OS and Windows have changed since their original instructions.
Thanks Progress for so clearly boiling down my issues to the basics.
just to add my 2 penneth…i think adobe should honour their free support offer. Depending on your country, I think they may be on dodgy ground to retract something that was offered at the time of purchase, unless there’s some neat "get out" clause somewhere (which is why i wish someone would challenge shrinkwrap conditions that offer a one way "getout" clause).
To be honest I have only come across one tech support worth buying and that was Alias’s. Everything else seems either ill informed, unwilling to work away from a script or just out performed by forums and helpful people on the web. It seems being a bit of an info ferret is a necessary part of the skill set these days…
Progress, a company that people could learn from is Total Hip that produces, LiveStage Pro, the software for producing interactive and uniquely shaped QuickTime video files. The manual has made it a rare proposition that I need to call them but those times I have they are very good.
Besides being a great product it has one of the most complete documentation I have ever seen. The manual comes in a binder so that you can add updates or changes to it. It is a 2 track manual: track one is a description of every single item in the interface, every menu, dialog and button is explained in what it does and what you would use it for. The other track is the "How to track" or anecdotal method that is so popular now and good instruction but ineffective if the software don’t guess what you want to do.
Andrew, is this because we Yanks have such short attention spans? 🙂
As usual, progress is on the mark with that bit of insight. I’ve been a bit of an internet ferret as well. I once ventured on a fee based tech site where they allowed one question for free for the experts to solve.
It was a monitor display interference problem (jittery type and horizontal trailing lines) and wanted to know how to diagnose it. During the several days I was waiting for a response, I dug a little deeper in the Apple Discussion forum and found I had tightened the VGA connects too tight…DUH! 8/
My post from the fee site finally got answered, but offered only assumptions about the use of cheap cables as being the problem.
I reported back to the fee site with my Apple forum answer and they finally labeled my original thread as abandoned as if I’ld never replied.
It seemed like an automated site with form letter responses.
Tim, I have not had the best luck with the Apple forums. I don’t really like some of the interface navigation issues and no one seems to ever answer my questions.
It’s hit and miss depending who’s there at the time you post. You really have to spend quite a bit of time searching through their folder structured site.
Apple’s knowledge base is loaded with bits of info on each Mac model and OS I never read in the user’s manual or any where else on the web.
Most of what I’ve come across is by accident just like here. Forum search engines in general leave a lot to be desired. A Google search in the Groups section finds tons of info on more forums than anyone has time to read.
There are only 5 posts of yours currently at the Apple boards, Of those five, only the last one was a question from you. When I looked this morning, you had at least four answers.
This is inconsistent with your statement:
no one seems to ever answer my questions.
A uniformly complaining tone is not conducive to getting a helpful response from a customer or tech support person. You might want to keep that in mind next time you call Adobe. They might even help you.
Ramón, this will be the last time that I will respond to you. I am not sure what your problem is but you appear to be a very small man with an abundance of time on your hands. Every attempt to be respectful or courteous to you is met with derision or insult. I am going to honor you by setting my rules in Apple mail to filter you to my Junk mailbox, I have never set a filter for an individual before.
I have no interest in defending myself to you but for the purpose of accuracy why don’t you check out the literally hundreds of responses that I have made to people’s posts on these forums. This would include the many times I have posted information for the soul purpose of sharing knowledge with others. Maybe you should aspire to be as helpful and positive.
If you were paying attention at the Apple forum you would see that there are currently 15 posts by me, most of them answers to other people’s issues. Also there no answers to my problems with Sherlock, just like minded folk with the same problem.
I would like to thank you for alerting me to the 2 new posts, this being part of the problem with the site, I have set email alert several times and still did not receive notification.
Since your so fascinated with me why don’t you search the whole web or you could search the Postforum archives for my history as well. Or you could look up the colleges I have taught at and further pursue my biography.
As my very dry British friend would say, "Good luck with all that."
Do the search you suggest on my user ID here instead, if you’re that petty.
I was not suggesting you don’t post. What I’m saying is that, of the 5 remaining posts of yours I found on the Apple boards (the others are no longer "online"), only one is a question, and you did receive replies to it.
What I’m also saying is that there is a very high likelihood that your pedantic, arrogant and self-aggrandizing tone may very well have turned the Adobe rep against you. Your last post kind of confirms my suspicions. I would have also given you a hard time if you had been on the phone with me.
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