Ethical Question

C
Posted By
Cheesefood
Jul 28, 2003
Views
1590
Replies
49
Status
Closed
Hey peeps…we’ve argued this before, so let me streamline my question.

My in-laws’ wedding album is damaged. Apart from being in a fire, many of the pictures are extremely faded. The album is over 30 years old.

As a wedding present to them, I want to re-touch the photos. There are burns that I can remove, moisture damage I can clean up and I can make the colors vibrant and re-saturated.

A few weeks ago, we argued about the "rights" of the couple that purchases the photos. Many photographers stated that they felt it copyright infringement for the wedded couple to make their own copies of pictures since it reduces the photographers income.

How does this fall into that argument? I don’t think the photographer is still alive. If he is, good luck finding him and even better luck getting him to find a set of negatives from 30 years ago.

So, is what I’m doing ethical? My plan is to scan them all in, retouch them, then take them to a local camera shop to get the digital files printed on good photo-quality paper.

MacBook Pro 16” Mockups 🔥

– in 4 materials (clay versions included)

– 12 scenes

– 48 MacBook Pro 16″ mockups

– 6000 x 4500 px

C
Cheesefood
Jul 28, 2003
Second part of the question:

Since there are some 60 pictures, 8 x 10, I’ve scanned them at 200 dpi to save hard-drive space. I printed two from my ink-jet, and they looked very nice. 200 dpi should be enough for me to get good prints from a camera shop, right?
MV
Mathias Vejerslev
Jul 28, 2003
200 is good, 300 is better.
C
Cheesefood
Jul 28, 2003
200 is good, 300 is better.

Right, but when I get into editing the pictures, the file size can quickly jump to 30 megs each. I don’t have a huge hard drive, nor do I have the money to buy a new one in the next two weeks.
BC
bart.cross
Jul 28, 2003
Also remember to apply some sharpening to the photos before sending out, the image will soften slightly in the output process.
WK
William Kazak
Jul 28, 2003
Scan at the higher resolution and edit down in Photoshop per use basis. Big hard drives = yes. Now you know the real story!
C
Cheesefood
Jul 28, 2003
Also remember to apply some sharpening to the photos before sending out, the image will soften slightly in the output process

Do you recommend the unsharpen mask, or just the set sharpening filters?

What I’m doing now (from 7.0.1) is to scan as a TIF, then use Auto Levels, Auto Contrast, Auto Colors. Then I duplicate the layer and set the blending to multiply, at about 80% opacity. Then I merge and adjust the curves as necessary.
P
Phosphor
Jul 28, 2003
"The liklihood that the photographer would retain the records at this late date is slim."

My dad had a well-organized and annotated negative file that went back over 50 years. Many (if not most) pro photogs do the same.
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 28, 2003
Hmmmm… I stand corrected then. Maybe Cheesefood should contact him for reprints.
J
jeffc
Jul 28, 2003
Maybe Cheesefood should contact him for reprints<

Or at least his permission to scan and print. I too have all my negs etc going back at least 25 years. You never know, he might even offer to sell you the negs at a knock down price after all these years – and that would save you hours and hours of work.



Carol
(Posted from the UK)
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 28, 2003
And all this time I envisioned Carol as a 25 year old….
C
Cheesefood
Jul 28, 2003
If you were going to do this and then make copies for everyone in the family or sell them to a stock photography house, I cold see the photographer having a problem but for what you are doing, you’re probably safe…

But I do expect to make copies for their children, who may like a framed copy of their parents wedding picture.

I failed to mention that the family is from a very rural Iowa town where 99% of businesses are locally owned. Because of that, they are subject to moving or going out of business.

I’d love to find the originals, but I feel that asking them to look up the photographer is like saying "This is a huge pain-in-the-butt process and I’ll just spend the money you don’t have." That’s just how her parents are.

And as I said, my wedding is in 19 days, and it’s in the same church that her parents were married. I’d love to be able to present them with the photo album with newly reprinted pictures on that day.

I’m also retouching some photo’s of my grandma to prepare for her funeral collage. She’s 94 now, and not doing so well. Since one of the pictures of my grandfather is over 100 years old, I’m just going to assume that the photographers copyright has expired and that the negatives are gone.
P
Phosphor
Jul 28, 2003
Please excuse me for jumping in here like this, but I also have a similar question and I didn’t want to start a new thread.

A number of times I’ve been asked to archive wedding albums, family albums and retouch some photos as well.

Now, I’m thinking about charging for my services. If I were to do so, can I put in writing “The consumer is held liable for any copyright infringement that may occur” or something to that wording.

Can anyone offer any advise as to how I can protect myself from any wrong doings?
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 28, 2003
Ahem! Ed, plain and simple. Copyright infringement. You need permission to reproduce these. If you are charging for them, the photographer will be granted your fees if you are brought to court. There may not be punative damages, but certainly compensatory.

We have been asked to put wedding photo albums on CD many, many times, and won’t touch it. Our attorney said that if we did it, he’d help prosecute us (not really but that was the overall tone of the 2 minute conversation).

Your attempt to pass liability to the client does not obviate your liability. If the client signs a document, saying that they give you copyright permission, and that they have the right to grant permission to reproduce, you will still be liable for compensatory damages, in the event that the client does NOT have the right to grant copyright.

Don’t walk, RUN from this one brother.

Peace
Tony
C
Cheesefood
Jul 28, 2003
Ed,

Your best bet is to scan them and put them on a file-sharing program like KaZaA. No one has been able to successfully sue anyone from a file-sharing program infringement.

So Tony, if what you’re saying is correct, I’m not allowed to scan my wedding pictures onto my computer?

Let’s see them try to stop me. If I want a picture that I paid $1,000 to be my desktop wallpaper, I’ll do it anyway.
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 28, 2003
Look, it’s not my law, it’s international copyright law. Just because they can’t stop you from stealing a car, doesn’t make doing so illegal.

So Tony, if what you’re saying is correct, I’m not allowed to scan my wedding pictures onto my computer?

That is correct, in most circumstances. Enforcement is another issue. You aren’t really exposed.

Stealing is stealing. I think that in your circumstances Cheese, I probably would do the same – it would still be wrong, but I’d do it to help my father/mother, etc. with a personal, family album, that would live, essentially, in perpetuity.

But to start charging for stealing someone elses work, which is what Ed was saying, well, I couldn’t do it.

How’d ya like it if someone stole the logo you created?

Don’t get me wrong, my commentary is not a moral judgement. I can only speak to my own morality, but the fact is, copying a wedding album and then selling them is illegal.

Just for the sake of argument, the amount of money you paid for the service of having a photograph taken does not confer any additional rights upon you. Again, it’s not my law, it’s copyright law. <shrug>

Peace,
Tony
P
Phosphor
Jul 28, 2003
Well, my aim is really to do personal pictures. Like the hundred and one pictures your uncle Fred took at the wedding reception. Besides, you say the photographer would likely be compensated for profits made. What’s that 20-30 bucks?

I won’t be selling the photographer’s photos/negatives anyway, I’ll be putting them on CD or retouching the worn out/faded photos and charging for those services and the custom built interface supplied, not the images. The pictures that I know have a copyright I’ll be sure to request proof of permission to use those photos, but the ones that I might not be aware of are the ones that bother me.

Tony, I’m not arguing with what you say, just try to find a loophole.

Cheesfood,

Your best bet is to scan them and put them on a file-sharing program
like KaZaA. No one has been able to successfully sue anyone from a file-sharing program infringement. << I don’t know about that. I’ve heard bad stuff about the site. I stay away from there.
DM
Don McCahill
Jul 28, 2003
Re: So Tony, if what you’re saying is correct, I’m not allowed to scan my wedding pictures onto my computer?

I’m not sure that Tony is right on that one. I am pretty sure that backing up copyrighted materials is an allowable use under fair-use provisions within the copyright acts.

Of course, if you are scanning them into the computer, and sending copies to all your relatives via the net, then you would be infringing on copyright.
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 28, 2003
Good point Don, on the fair use provisions. In fact, I’m not familiar with the limitations of the provision so it’s possible that I am mistaken.

Peace,
Tony
C
Cheesefood
Jul 28, 2003
Let’s all be honest here though. Please, weigh in with honest opinions.

OK, so we all know pretty well the art of photo-duplication.

We all have access to good equipment: scanners, printers, computers, cameras.

We all know how to correctly and incorrectly duplicate a photo.

So here’s my question:

If you just paid $1,700 to a photographer for his services, and another $2,000-3,000 for some high-quality prints, would you scan one of them and print it out for your grandfather in Arizona, your aunt in California or your uncle in Nevada whom you rarely ever see?

And then if a friend comes over a few months later and says "I really like that picture, can I get a copy?" Do you:

A. Call the photographer and make arrangements for the friend to purchase a print.

B. Purchase the print as a gift for the friend.

C. Go into your home-office, scan the picture and print it out so they can bring it home.
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 28, 2003
"C".
P
Phosphor
Jul 28, 2003
Putting any image, from any source that I have paid for (book, magazine, newsppaper, wedding pix), onto my desktop is perfectly legal under fair use statutes. I can even photocopy one to hang up next to my desk.

Putting them out on the web, or trying to make money from those images, is not.
JK
John Kallios
Jul 28, 2003
All I can tell you is from my experiences working in a copy shop and my own wedding photos.

Working in the copy shop, I often was ask to duplicate wedding photos. I generally made them if they requested only 1 or 2 copies. Most of the time they did not have a copyright stamp on the back.

About 6 to 7 years ago, management said to not do this at all because of rumors that photography spies were going around to see if they could get these images duplicated. It is the same for when people ask me to duplicate their wedding certificate. (I even had a police officer ask me to do this while he was in uniform)

I even had a 20 some year old wanting me to duplicate a Diploma and to substitute his name on it.

Now, with my wedding, it was negotiated with my photography the negatives and the rights would be purchased 2 years after the date. It was also something he normally did not do, but since he planned on retiring in a years time, he was ok striking the deal. He knew my profesion and knew that I could reproduce the images if I wanted to cheat him. I did buy a fair amount of prints from him though at the beginning. Regardless of how good I could reproduce, nothing would beat the original prints.
A side note to the story, the photolab that the photographer used was my nephews father’s lab. I could have gotten a multitude of prints (for little cost) if I wanted. But, my nephew’s father and I were a little too honest for that.

Unfortunately, when we purchased the negatives, my wife was 6 months pregnate and had to be rushed to the hospital. Everything ended up fine with her but my mother-in-law decided to go to my house to tidy up while we were at the hospital. She thought the envelope was trash and the trash service took it away. At least I still retain the rights.

If you are charging for this service, I agree with Tony, I would run away as fast as I can.

John
I had a point here originally, but it got lost in my trip down memory lane.
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 28, 2003
John,

Your point wasn’t lost at all, where I’m concerned. In fact you raise the issue of negotiating with yoru photographer. That’s a fair deal. I would have no qualms about letting my photographer know that A) I respect his work and his rights B) that I will purchase from him for two years C) if I wanted, I could make personal copies that would rival the prints, and D) I won’t do that out of respect, provided that he is willing to strike a fair deal.

If I were the photographer, I’d take that. Even if he didn’t take the deal, I think it’s a fair attempt.

I think that one of the issues that many people misunderstand, is who really owns the images – many people say "Well my wedding photos cost $3,000, and it’s MY wedding – I’ll be damned if someone else can say what I can and cannot do".

My point, throughout this thread was simply to clarify who owns what.

Peace,
Tony
J
JohnSWhite
Jul 28, 2003
Stealing is a very emotive word and does not apply copyright infringement unless you are churning out thousands of copies of a popular piece of work like a CD that is in great demand. For something as far up the backwater as wedding pics it is hardly worth worrying about.
It is like the difference between trespass and burglary. Nothing is taken from the original photographer that they have any hand in. Even the original negs would need some work after all this time.
If the copyright idea, which I support for truly universal images, is applied so strictly then the case in the forum a week ago about the Eiffel Tower being copyright will become much more common. You turn up as a photographer, with all your expensive kit, skills, artistry etc. and make a copy of the original which belongs to someone else and then go and sell it, why shouldn’t the owner of the tower get a cut. Take a photo of my tree? the sky over my house? no, its mine, I own the original! give me the MONEY!
Hopefully we are never reduced to this level.
Many laws could be applied as though they are universal but the world would be a miserable place if they were.
Get copying/restoring&enhancing Cheese, make your relatives happy and the world will be a better place.
John
DM
dave milbut
Jul 28, 2003

D) I won’t do that out of respect, provided that he is willing to strike
a fair deal.

<bevis/cornholio>
Are you threatening me?
</bevis/cornholio>

ok. shutting up now.
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 28, 2003
Well, I can’t disagree about the extreme applications, but I don’t think that Anne Rice would agree that it’s okay to make a copy of her book for your friends. Why shouldn’t they buy it? Why shouldn’t your uncle and your aunt buy a print from the photographer? Truthfully, what’s the real problem with that? They wouldn’t think of expecting a copy of your book would they?

Let’s just scan in some Peter Max or Annie Liebowitz. You get my point.

I think what Cheese is doing is exactly what I would do. But if you want to start a "I’ll copy your wedding album and put it on CD" business, I’m not sure you’d get much of an ethical or legal following.

Peace,
Tony
P
Phosphor
Jul 29, 2003
All in all, opinions are like a….- we’ve all got them but some are nicer than others. People can argue back and fourth till the cows come home about what is right and what isn’t. What it all comes down to (morals aside because they are just like opinions) is what is and isn’t legal, what the chances are of getting caught, and what the damages will be if you are caught. That is a question that everyone and their lawyer is going to have to figure out themselves. Ultimately, if you are going to be in error, wouldn’t it be better to do so on the side of caution? Anyone who goes ahead and does anything that may be illegal because of the assurances given to them by strangers in a public forum needs to get their head examined. It’s ok to go take your neighbors car and drive it through the nearest mall. Go ahead. Honest. I know what I’m talking about…

If anyone here is interested in the legal issues surrounding the digital age and copyrights and wants actual facts included examples of court cases and their outcomes, I would recommend this book:

< http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201883937/qid =1059442609/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-5284026-9338369?v=glance&a mp;s=books>

It isn’t the most concise volume out there on the subject but it was written for artists using plain english. Some of you would probably be quite surprised at who lost court cases and for doing what. The issues of copyrights are an INCREDIBLY gray area which are often times subject to a decision based on how a judge or jury ‘feels’ about it. These days even sampling a texture for use in your own piece can get you in trouble. It doesn’t even have to be recognizable if the other person can prove or provide a compelling witness that can state that before running half a dozen Photoshop filters you started out with their image.
P
Phosphor
Jul 29, 2003
If someone were to offer this as a service, I think you can get away
with it as long as there are no indications of copyright anywhere and you have a form drawn up by an attorney to protect yourself. You can also offer an added service where you negotiate with the photographer to agree on a price to offer this service.<<

That’s the route I was planning on taking, with wedding pics at least. Since I know that wedding pics have a copyright, I was going to ask the customer if I can contact the photographer for permission to provide the services.

I didn’t really look at it as reproducing or selling the image, I just looked at it as backing it up on to something that is not easily damaged, and selling the services. I get the point though.
N
ninjasavant
Jul 29, 2003
Copyrights are valid for 30 years (I think). The best place to get info on this is at Kinko’s. When I worked there, we had to take a class on copyright laws.

-ninja
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 29, 2003
Copyrights are valid for 30 years (I think).

Nope.
L
LenHewitt
Jul 29, 2003
Tony,

And all this time I envisioned Carol as a 25 year old….<<

I never let such an opportunity go unused <vbg> –

CAROL IS EVEN OLDER THAN ME!!!

I could tell you by how many years and months, but that would be ungentlemanly!
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 29, 2003
Len,

I dunno what it is, I just envision this young professional British girl/woman… funny thing really.

<whispering> some delusions are okay, let’s not ruin it for him.
C
Cheesefood
Jul 29, 2003
So only one person answered my question.

If a friend comes over and sees your wedding album and says "Hey, I’d like a copy of that picture", do you:

A. Call the photographer and make arrangements for the friend to purchase a print at their own cost.

B. Purchase the print as a gift for the friend.

C. Go into your home-office, scan the picture and print it out so they can bring it home.

Answer honestly.
M
marianmartin
Jul 29, 2003
I am more likely to borrow or lend a book from a friend to avoid buying it, because once you have read it unless it is very good you don’t really need it! I think it wouldn’t be worth the effort to photocopy a book, and it would cost a few pence as well!

Is borrowing books wrong?
Y
ylekyot
Jul 29, 2003
C

I work at a photo lab and we have requests all the time to reproduce copywritten work. without a copyright release we will not do it.

here is a link to the PMA (Photo Marketing Assoc.) website with some very good information on copyrights. it is in acrobat reader.

<http://www.pmai.org/pdf/Copyright_Policies.pdf>

Cheese,
pay attention to the laws prior to 1978, if your pictures are 30 years old you should be fine, IMO.

Wade
CW
Colin Walls
Jul 29, 2003
Ed

Since they trashed the "original" [I’d bet] as soon as they’d taken your money, would they really care?
CW
Colin Walls
Jul 29, 2003
What Marian said is interesting.

It’s quite legal to make copies of a few pages of a book for educational purposes …
P
Phosphor
Jul 29, 2003
would they really care?<<

I’m sure they don’t miss it a bit, but does that fall into copyright infringement?

From what I’ve read so far, it sounds like it does.
DM
dave milbut
Jul 29, 2003
would they really care?<<

I’m sure they don’t miss it a bit, but does that fall into copyright infringement?

It depends on what the agreement you sign says when you purchase the picture at the park. I’m pretty sure I remember signing SOMEthing!
P
Phosphor
Jul 29, 2003
I’m pretty sure I remember signing SOMEthing!<<

Well, the beer goggles where smudged that day. 🙂

I don’t recall, but I’m pretty sure I signed something.
M
marianmartin
Jul 29, 2003
could it be autographs from ps fans?
J
jeffc
Jul 30, 2003
and does not apply copyright infringement unless you are churning out
thousands of copies<

You might *think* that, but the law is very clear on this – even making one copy is an infringement of copyright – period.h<html><body><img src=" file:///D:\Emoticons\52.gif" border="0"></body></html>



Carol
(Posted from the UK)
J
JohnSWhite
Jul 30, 2003
Don’t take the bait so quickly, Auntie.
John
J
jeffc
Jul 30, 2003
Well today is *YOUR* birthday Len – so you’re slowly catching up

Many Happy Returns – may it be a good one for you!



Carol
(Posted from the UK)
Y
YrbkMgr
Jul 31, 2003
Happy Birthday Len. Come to think of it, I was here last year when you celebrated your birthday. My how time flies.

Here’s what my Dad always said when we teased him about is age:

Son, the point of life, is to get old.
DM
dave milbut
Jul 31, 2003
hippy birthday len! 🙂
P
Phosphor
Jul 31, 2003

A. Call the photographer and make arrangements for the friend to purchase
a print at their own cost.

Or maybe B, depends on how good a friend they were. The main thing is that the photographer’s copyright isn’t being disregarded. I am biased though as I’m just moving into the professional side of photography and want to be fairly paid for my work and I’d hate to see my own copyright be broken in this way.

P.S. Happy birthday Len 🙂
P
Phosphor
Jul 31, 2003
Hoppy Lenday, Barth!
TD
Thee_DarkOverLord
Jul 31, 2003
Phos I speak like that all the time, I have serrius problmes with spoonarythms (probably spelt that all wrong) Shotophop kind stylie, I dont even know I have done it untill I notice someone staring at me wondering what im going on about.

MacBook Pro 16” Mockups 🔥

– in 4 materials (clay versions included)

– 12 scenes

– 48 MacBook Pro 16″ mockups

– 6000 x 4500 px

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