Just bought the CS2 Premium bundle. It included a 100 page overview booklet. Does Adobe sell the actual manuals for all these programs? Kind of like buying a car then learning the wheels are sold seperately…
In my book that puts Adobe down there with the dodgiest of dodgy car dealers! …"We’ve had your money for some plastic disks, but all that paper is too expensive to produce"!!
Come on Adobe, anyone buying The Suite is in even more need of the manuals than us lesser mortals with just one app to learn.
I don’t know… I don’t have to automatically pay $50 extra for my copy of CS (I like my $350 upgrade price, TYVM. 😉 ) for Adobe to include manuals. I’m all for having the decision as to whether the user needs the manuals on themselves, not on Adobe.
Besides that, Adobe includes excellent help files, to the point that I would only use the Manuals as bathroom reading (excuse the image) anyway. The help files are much more useful.
And, IIRC, there are PDF files on the CDs that include more information than the proper manuals do anyway.
Buy Real World Photoshop instead (when it becomes available for CS2). The Adobe User Guides have become increasingly less useful with each new edition.
There are basically two camps: those who hold the manuals as majestic works, and those who don’t care. I’m with Jonathan, in the latter group.
That said, I cannot see that providing electronic versions of manuals is any more "dodgy" than providing print versions. The information is there, some folks just want printed material. Personally, I can’t see them being any more useful than the electronic versions.
Having written big commercial software manuals myself once upon a time, I don’t ever want to hold another dead-tree manual in my hands again. Printed manuals are out of date the instant they roll off the press. If there’s a major correction, you either have to include an errata sheet or trash the whole print run and start over. Minor corrections have to be made in the subsequent printing and those corrections are often wrong, since it’s the printer making them and not the writer/editor.
Once you have a paper manual, it then sits gathering dust after the initial reading (assuming it’s ever read in the first place). Eventually, disposal gets to be a problem. Do you recycle or trash it?
Give me electronic manuals and help files. They’re vastly superior.
as a suite purchaser, the only thing I see wrong here is that Adobe doesnt make the manuals available at the same time as the release of the software. Since all the individual apps ship with these manuals, they clearly have them at the time everything ships.
As for people feeling they deserve them when they buy the suite, Im with the camp that says they like their software $50 cheaper. As someone who will buy the manuals when they are available, the suite price is still a good bit cheaper than individual purchases (or upgrades) even after adding in the price of the printed manuals. (that dont have the search features that the PDFs do)
So… besides not having them ready to ship when the suite ships, I dont see why anyone could have a legitimate problem with it.
I don’t ever want to hold another dead-tree manual in my hands again.
I love them. I take mine to the beach.
If there’s a major correction…
Too bad. User guides don’t get revised. The user becomes aware of the error through various sources (fourms such as this, for one) and deals with it.
Once you have a paper manual, it then sits gathering dust…
Maybe. Depending on the software I’m using for a given project, I may have one or two manuals at my side to reference obscure/fine points.
…dont have the search features that the PDFs do.
It’s called an index. And there’s one sublime pleasure that I get from a printed-on-paper-hold-in-my-hands book that no ebook or online resource can provide. I can leaf through the pages. This advantage alone should be sufficient reason to outlaw online encyclopedias. When I was a kid, I would thumb through the World Book (or the Britannica if I was at the library), stopping to read articles that attracted my eye through either a picture, key word, or heading. How often do you suppose that happens today with the electronic counterpart?
This advantage alone should be sufficient reason to outlaw online encyclopedias
You’re kidding right? You’re not talking about an advantage, you’re talking about a feeling – you want the majesty of a volume to make you feel better. You can have that, and there’s a price for it.
But in today’s world of lowering costs, and, I’m sorry Ho, the FACT is that Adobe is the industry’s major motivator to move to a more digital content provider (PDF, e-book, publish on demand, and more), it makes economic sense to reduce costs when costs don’t add value or are not within the paradigm of the provider.
How often do you suppose that happens today with the electronic counterpart?
In my world? Every single day. Me, my wife, my three kids. I see it happen daily.
The notion that leafing through a book is any different than leafing through an electronic encyclopedia britannica is school marm diatribe. This was a similar argument to "the fidelity" of vinyl LPs when Compact Disc hit the market. The "audiophiles" claimed a reduction, in one way, shape, or form of the fidelity of the music. My kids have never seen a turntable, and take pictures on flash memory cards.
If you learn how to use electronic documents, they serve quite well, are efficient and can serve so as to actually stimulate learning. It goes to the notion of non-linear thinking, which, face it or not is the way information is being presented. The problem that most older folks have with information they get from the web is that it can get confusing to keep track – the web is a perfect example of non-linear (or 3-d, if you like) reading. Books are linear.
So any argument about majesty of holding a book, is simply about a feeling; not functionality. Wouldn’t it be great if we just used typewriters? Then there wouldn’t be any of the troubles that the era of computing has brought in like backing up, lost files, INI files, registries, etc.
I’m not disagreeing with anything you’ve said. In fact, that is why I said I’ll buy the manuals when they have them to purchase. In fact like a nin-com-poop, I actually ordered the CS(1) manuals again when I pre-ordered the CS2 upgrade not realizing they weren’t the CS2 manuals and Adobe was amazingly felxible in how they chose to deal with it considering it was my fault entirely.
That aside, I understand why many people would find no need for the printed manuals and I have no problem buying them separately if Adobe gives me incentive to do so just like I don’t mind so much upgrading all of my products in the suite at the same time if Adobe gives me the incentive to do so. In this case that incentive is cash and again, since the combined purchase of the suite and manuals is still cheaper than upgrading and/or buying everything seperate (espeically if you upgrade from just Photoshop), what is the beef?.. besides having to wait to get them? You haven’t been cheated. You still got a good deal.
I remember the World Book would publish a volume of new information every year and give you stickers to put in the old books for cross reference. It took me days to get those done for that very reason. I’d just stop and read everything.
Yep, Tony has a point. My daughter has skimmed through electronic encyclopedias and read what interested her just as people used to do with the printed versions.
Looking to see what’s there is a part of the person’s desire to learn new things. Curiosity is well in the kids of today just as it was in our younger days.
As for a turntable, my daughter had a party at the house several years ago. When she and her friends said they liked some of my old-fashioned music (you know…70s and 80s stuff), I broke out the LPs. One of the kids hollered "Look at the size of that CD!"
I didn’t get around to playing it for them, but if I had, I’m sure they would have complained about the crackles and pops in the background compared to their digitized music.
I would still rather read the words off a page than a screen. I despise having to print out a 300 page document that should have been included in the box in bound form. And I also despise searching, screen by screen, through that 300 page doc to find the info I really want which is why I sometimes end up printing it all out in the first place. Search functions don’t tell the whole story. We have digitized our blueprints at my workplace and it is simply a fiasco; I’ll tell you about it sometime when I have an hour or two.
And LPs *are* superior :), modern digital sampling algorithms be damned. Music is analog and converting it from analog to digital and back is not the way to preserve it. Yes, I have several hundred CDs but I also have extensive vinyl. Given a choice, I’ll take vinyl everytime.
a 300 page document that should have been included in the box in bound form
Why do you keep insist that everyone must buy a manual in order for you to get one? Adobe makes manuals available, they just don’t include it in the base price because a significant number of people don’t want/need them.
(I agree that the manuals should be available as soon as possible, not delayed for whatever reason. I just don’t want to have to pay for them, and if they were brought back into the software bundle, we would have to pay more.)
So to understand you in response to what I and others have said, are you saying youd rather Adobe just charge $50-$60 more up front and include the manuals?
I mean, what they send us cant cost more than around $5 in materials and the software is of course intellectual property so this isnt really a discussion about how much money they are making off a product that they arent supplying manuals for as much as it is a discussion about the discount they provide along with what you do and dont get when you buy the suite as apposed to individual apps. They provide VersionCue which may or may not be of value to you and they dont provide the manuals. In return, they provide a significant discount and still allow you to buy the manuals at a total cost that is still less than purchasing the individual apps with manuals… I still dont see where they are cheating anyone, here.
I would still rather read the words off a page than a screen.
I understand completely. When I read a novel, there is no electronic replacement for all that that process represents – yet.
I was (rather rudely) suggesting that there is a difference between preference and functionality. And for those who have a preference, there is a mechanism to satisfy that preference.
On the other hand, what I expect out of my vendors is that they are doing what’s necessary to reduce costs, and passing a portion of those savings on to me, the customer. Jewel cases – don’t need ’em, don’t want ’em; save us both some bucks and eliminate them. If they have to spend "X" dollars on including manuals, I’d rather they funnel that into another summer intern to help develop issues with the core applications.
Further, we’re talking about Adobe here. They are the leaders in moving towards a digital world – including free manuals that have a cost associated with them is not one of my priorities.
Why do you keep insist that everyone must buy a manual in order for you to get one?
are you saying youd rather Adobe just charge $50-$60 more up front and include the manuals?
I’m not insistent on any such thing, and I don’t care to pay more for software than I already do. My initial post regarding this topic was in response to tmalcom’s. I am simply stating my preference for the printed word, period.
Thanks for the info. I personally like to have manuals to take along and read while waiting for the brakes, tires, or whatever to be done. It might be nice if Adobe would offer a choice with their bundles: CS2 Premium for those who do not want manuals, and CS2 Premium (M) which includes the manuals for a few more dollars…
"It might be nice if Adobe would offer a choice with their bundles: CS2 Premium for those who do not want manuals, and CS2 Premium (M) which includes the manuals for a few more dollars…"
Well, in theory, they do, but you have to order the manuals separately. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like they are selling them yet.
I’ve been informed that the manuals are indeed for sale, but you’ll need to Call Adobe directly at 800-833-6687. The Standard package is $49.00, the Premium is $59.00.
Robert, I just called that number, and the lady told me Adobe does not sell manuals, and that I should print out the pdf help files. I asked if she expected me to spend a day and $200 worth of ink and paper to print these, and she said,"yes, if you want the manuals."
I’m glad that I’m sticking with the individual applications. I enjoy laying on the couch reading the manual for some software or device. I listen to music while I read. It’s a personal indulgence, I learn best by doing so I really learn the most while working with the app. But the manual is a nice touch.
If I don’t get one, I won’t have a problem. It’s sort of an extra add-on, that you get with the single app upgrade. Kind of like a toy.
"So any argument about majesty of holding a book, is simply about a feeling; not functionality." Sorry YrbkMgr but I must disagree, hard copy books are much more functional for study as you can highlite and ‘flip’ to refresh memory and reference, especially as mentioned whilst relaxing and listening to music, plus having thirty odd books on the shelf I can find something much much faster than scanning 30 pdfs! I am of course biased as I ran a bookshop for 12 odd years LOL
One of the nice things about having the book is being able to browse in bed or where-ever. It’s good revision anyway and you find things you would never come across in the Help files. An simple example I found is the fact that by clicking on the actual profile, rather than the drop-down box, in the Bevel and Emboss style dialogue you can tailor the profile to get exactly the effect you want (with a live preview).
I just called this number and spoke to Graham. He first told me to check out Peach Pit and order the "Classroom in a Book" for each of the products. I said "that’s not what I want, I want the User Guides". He then spoke to a supervisor who said to just use the included PDF’s. When I said I wanted manuals to read and highlight, he said print the PDF’s. I told him that was way too expensive and wouldn’t be bound anyway.
Then he told me that there was a package of user guides for Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator CS2 for $49.00. I ordered the package and with tax and shipping it came to ~$60.00.
What can I say, I like reading the manuals on the couch, in bed and yes, even in the little room with the hard floors and walls. I also like to be able to highlight the important points, and yes, I do sometimes look stuff up after the initial perusal.
John, I just called again and was on the phone for a half hour. The man was very nice but he kept checking and telling me that no manuals are available, and I kept telling him that I knew they were and to please research this further. The end result is that he finally found the order number and I ordered the manuals for $59. He apologized for giving me wrong information and thanked me for being patient. (I was reading the CS2 Design Guide that came with CS2, so the time was well spent.)
Hi Larry. I’m glad you were able to order them. But that is still unacceptable that you had to go through all that. I’m glad he apologized. The folks on the phones should be able to find these manuals much faster than that.
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