a high res question

JF
Posted By
Jodi Frye
Sep 22, 2003
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699
Replies
32
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Closed
ok, I am not used to the higher resolution of my new camera. With my other Kodak point and shoot it gave me 300 res for a 4 X 6 picture which seemed great for printing my multiple image album pages . With the new camera for an approx 4 X 6 it gives me 470 resolution. I’m almost scared to send it to the printer. It would be letter size paper with multiple 4 X 6 pics at 470 res. My printer is the Epson 785 epx which prints with res up to 2880 X 720. Am I being ridiculous to worry about this or should i resample ? Help

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CS
Chuck Snyder
Sep 22, 2003
Jodi, no harm likely done printing at 470, although if you downsample to 360 ppi, you get an even multiple of your printer’s native resolution of 720 dpi. Some sources I’ve read indicate that it’s good to have that even multiple, but…. Anything 300 or more will give you a fine print, I’m quite confident!

Chuck
JF
Jodi Frye
Sep 22, 2003
Thank you very much Chuck. I just don’t know enough about this stuff. That’s why I come here…I knew you’d answer 😉 I’m not complaining about the high res 8 X 10’s I get though ….yay ! I’ll go ahead and lower it to 360 and see what i get. So, generally, resampling this way isn’t such a bad thing ? I never thought I’d have to consider taking pixels away for printing !
R
Ray
Sep 22, 2003
Jodi,

My camera makes picture of 3072 x 2048. So, at 6 x 4, it makes 512 pixels per inch. I’ve never had
to resample or downsize the number of pixels to get them to print. I have an HP 940Cvr and it discards the extra information is doesn’t need. It may takes a few extra seconds to send the information to the printer, this I can’t really tell. It doesn’t take more ink because its ink consumption has been consistent since I got it, and at that time, I had a 2.2 Mp camera (compared to
a 6Mp now).

Ray
CS
Chuck Snyder
Sep 22, 2003
Ray, like you, I’m becoming a believer in the view that printers don’t ‘waste ink’ when you send them more pixels than they need. However, I’m trying to dredge up a reference that I read once which indicated that excess image resolution could actually cause a degradation in the printed image. That may have been more myth than fact, but I’m still going to look for it just to satisfy my curiosity.

Chuck
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 23, 2003
"JodiFrye" wrote in message
ok, I am not used to the higher resolution of my new camera. With my other Kodak point and shoot it gave me 300 res for a 4 X 6 picture which seemed great for printing my multiple image album pages . With the new camera for an approx 4 X 6 it gives me 470 resolution. I’m almost scared to send it to the printer.

I’m not sure what you’re asking. 4×6 should print as 4×6 (assuming no changes to the print settings), no matter what the image resolution is given as. The only difference is how much detail there is, and whether the printer is capable of showing all of that detail at that size.

Don’t be scared to send it to the printer. Embrace all those extra pixels…they are good for you. 🙂

Pete
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 23, 2003
"Chuck Snyder" wrote in message
Ray, like you, I’m becoming a believer in the view that printers don’t ‘waste ink’ when you send them more pixels than they need. However, I’m trying to dredge up a reference that I read once which indicated that
excess
image resolution could actually cause a degradation in the printed image. That may have been more myth than fact, but I’m still going to look for it just to satisfy my curiosity.

It just depends. It may have even been a rampant problem in the early days of color printers (though there was no such problem with my ImageWriter II). But I believe that these days, the printer driver has been designed carefully to take the best advantage of the printer hardware, a luxury that Adobe doesn’t have (since they have to work on all hardware).

To print an image created with a different resolution than being used to print it, *some* component somewhere will have to resample the image. IMHO, it is much better to let the printer driver do the resampling, than to do it in advance with a piece of software that doesn’t know the fine details of the printer’s performance characteristics.

Same thing with respect to adjusting the image resolution to be an even fraction of the printer’s resolution. At the point that the image is captured, if you have the option of doing this, that’s a good idea. But once you have the digital image in the computer, you should let the printer driver do as much of the resampling as possible, even if that means feeding it an image with a resolution that’s not an even fraction of the printer’s resolution.

Finally, as far as the "extra ink" thing goes, I still have no idea where that came from, and I can say with great confidence that the printer will use the same amount of ink regardless of the resolution of the original image. The *print* resolution may well affect ink consumption (just feel how much "wetter" a piece of paper feels after being printed at 2880 dpi vs 720 dpi, for example), but the original data being sent to the printer will not affect ink consumption in any way.

Pete
JF
Jodi Frye
Sep 23, 2003
Pete, I was more concerned with the printer than anything else. I was afraid to throw too much at it considering it had never printed above 300 res since i bought it ( I never gave it more than that ) and I get awesome prints out of it. I don’t want to mess up my relationship with it…I guess I’m a freak about my equipment. Chuck, I’ll be waiting to see what info you come up with…if it tosses out what it doesn’t need then fine, I have nothing to be concerned about.
CS
Chuck Snyder
Sep 23, 2003
Pete, one thing still has me baffled on image resolution vs. printer resolution: the difference between a pixel and a printer ‘dot’. Image resolution is easy – it’s the number of pixels per inch, with each pixel being a square consisting one of 16.7 million colors. On the other hand, a printer has to use multiple ‘dots’ of cyan, magenta, yellow, and black ink to form its equivalent of a pixel – some references say as many as 50 dots in a matrix to comprise a pixel. My understanding is that the dots are put in close proximity to each other so that the eye sees them as a single color – but they’re still discrete dots. The $64 question is: is the dpi of a printer counting the individual dots of color in an inch of print, or is it somehow a ‘pixel equivalent’ number where the actual number of dots per inch is much larger? If it’s the former, the relationship between image ppi and printer dpi isn’t one-to-one; if it’s the latter, then a 1:1 correspondence is possible. It would be great if it was a pixel equivalent: then one could ‘tune’ the images in Elements to feed the printer its desired resolution. I’m sure the better printers have good interpolation algorithms; not so sure about the ones that come free with a computer…. 🙂

Chuck
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 23, 2003
"Chuck Snyder" wrote in message
[…] The $64 question is: is the dpi
of a printer counting the individual dots of color in an inch of print, or is it somehow a ‘pixel equivalent’ number where the actual number of dots per inch is much larger?

Printer resolution is reported in the maximum number of dots printable, and does not take into account the dithering required to print 24-bit color on what is effectively a 4- to 8-bit device (depending on how many colors of ink the printer uses).

*However*, just because you lose effective resolution due to the dithering (just as you would when using a halftone screen in a conventional printing process), that doesn’t mean that providing the printer with as high a resolution image as possible isn’t useful. There are actually a variety of dithering techniques in use (one common one being "error diffusion"), but all of them can benefit from additional image data.

The reason comes down again to the question of where the resampling is done. The printer driver, being intimately familiar with the hardware, can do THE most effective job of resampling in order to produce an image that most closely matches the original digital data. It knows the exact shades of each of the inks being used, and it knows how it to blend those shades just so to match the original image. It can also adjust the dithering so as to preserve apparent lines in the image, helping to reduce the appearance of aliasing in the printed image.

Let’s take an extreme example and look at it. Consider a 300 dpi B&W laser printer using half-toning (which is essentially just another kind of dithering). Let’s say you choose a half-tone screen that drops the effective resolution down to about 50 dpi (I guess we want a lot of gray-scale resolution 🙂 ). Now, print an image that has a single diagonal line on it, first at 300 dpi, and then at 50 dpi.

You *will* be able to see a noticeable difference between the two printouts. While the effective resolution for both is still just 50 dpi, you will find that the image printed at 300 dpi still has less "jaggies" than the one printed at 50 dpi. Yes, the "grain" of the half-tone screen will make the edge of the line a little fuzzier, but you’ll get more of an anti-aliased effect rather than a hard edge at the edge of the line.

Another way to think about it is to realize that there’s "real" resolution and "effective" resolution. "Real" resolution is how many dots that can be reproduced, and "effective" is how much detail can actually be reproduced. What "effective" is describing is, what is the smallest "feature" that you would be able to resolve at that resolution? Sort of like the resolution of spy satellites, when they say they can resolve down to 10 meters or 1 meter or whatever. But with a spy satellite, just because you can only resolve down to 10 meters, that doesn’t mean that a car only 5 meters long won’t show up. It just means that you won’t be able to tell exactly that it’s a car.

Same thing with printed output. At the "effective" resolution, you’ll find the limits of being able to identify a feature in the image clearly. But that doesn’t mean that there won’t be any additional detail smaller than that. It just means it will be harder to tell what that additional detail is.

Finally, as far as "the ones that come free with a computer", I think you’ll find that, other than the maximum resolution the printer is capable of (the "free" ones are usually down in the 720dpi range, while the expensive ones are up in the 2880dpi range), they are using substantially the same software to run the printer, and thus would take the same advantage in the dithering algorithms that the more expensive printers do.

In fact, the drivers that came with my Epson 2200 appear to be used for all (or almost all) of the current Epson line, and likewise the HP drivers I downloaded a few weeks ago just to play with also appear to cover an entire HP product line (their "photo" printers).

So I would still send as high a resolution image as possible to the less expensive printers. Obviously you’ll reach a point of diminishing returns. The driver can only do so much, and can’t create resolution in the printer where none exists. I doubt sending a 2880 dpi image to a 720 dpi printer is going to be much better than sending a 720 or 1440 dpi image, if at all. But up to and including the actual resolution of the printer, more dots are better.

If all one is trying to do is print a picture at a particular size on the printer, I do not think it is EVER useful to resample the picture in Elements or a similar editing program. All such programs allow you to specify the final printed size without changing the underlying pixel data, and that’s the right way to print a specific size.

All IMHO, of course.

Pete
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 23, 2003
"JodiFrye" wrote in message
Pete, I was more concerned with the printer than anything else.
[…] I don’t want to mess up my relationship with it

Um…so this is more about your interpersonal relationship between you and your printer than a technical issue.

Okay, that sounds reasonable to me. I don’t kick my PC when it misbehaves, and I think everyone ought to be on good speaking terms with their computer peripherals. 🙂

Pete
CS
Chuck Snyder
Sep 23, 2003
Pete, you gave us a lot to think about – thanks.

I do want to pursue your very last point – about not ever resampling for printing in Elements. I think that may be true above a certain image resolution; however, for lower resolution – like 72 ppi – my printer will faithfully reproduce the very noticeable pixellation of the image – as it should. (There have actually been a couple instances where I wanted to print something that showed individual pixels for demo purposes) If, on the other hand, I sequentially resample the image until the resolution is, say 180 ppi, the resultant picture – while definitely ‘softer’ – will not display any significant pixellation at the same print size as the previous case. I’ll take ‘soft’ rather than ‘pixellated’ in most cases. Resampling within Elements has its place.

Chuck
P
Phosphor
Sep 23, 2003
I have a headache. 🙂
GD
Grant Dixon
Sep 23, 2003
Beth

I think Leen Koper has given you the best advice. I agree that the best way would be to copy the pictures photographically (digital or film). A two light set up metering of a grey card is standard and can be found in most books that cover copy photography. Once set up you can do lots of images in a short time.

Grant
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 23, 2003
"Chuck Snyder" wrote in message
[…] I think that may be true above a certain image
resolution; however, for lower resolution – like 72 ppi – my printer will faithfully reproduce the very noticeable pixellation of the image – as it should.

Sorry, yes, that’s true. I should have qualified my statement to circumstances where one is resampling *down*, throwing away data. Adding data is trickier, and the results are not really dependent on the printer hardware.

With a few notable exceptions, a printer driver generally will not upsample with any sort of sophistication, if at all. The Epson driver is one exception and I’m sure there are others — it has an "Edge Smoothing" option that enables anti-aliasing, and it works quite well as long as there’s not too huge a difference between the original resolution and the upsampled print resolution.

An image editing program like Elements would probably do a better job (though, I’d use the printer driver setting if available, and compare the two methods) especially when the resolution difference is large, and you also get more control that way (since you can do it in multiple passes), which is not important when downsampling.

Basically, I’m mainly just arguing against the practice of downsampling an image to 300 or 360 dpi (for example) when the original has a higher resolution. Pretty much any ink jet printer can take advantage of the additional resolution if you have it.

Pete
CS
Chuck Snyder
Sep 23, 2003
Pete, thanks – makes a lot of sense.

One other problem with resolution that has occurred with some inkjets, although I haven’t heard any chatter about it lately: if the resolution after playing with image size, cropping, etc. comes out to a number with a decimal value, some printers can’t seem to handle that number and experience printing errors such as parallel lines. I’ve not experienced that with my HP, but it’s been advised to resample ever so slightly to get rid of that decimal. Any thoughts?

Chuck
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 23, 2003
"Chuck Snyder" wrote in message
[…] if the resolution […] comes out to a number with a decimal value, some printers can’t seem to handle that number and
experience
printing errors such as parallel lines. I’ve not experienced that with my HP, but it’s been advised to resample ever so slightly to get rid of that decimal. Any thoughts?

I’ve never seen that either, but I’d never say it could never happen. I would hope any name-brand printer, even those made ten or fifteen years ago, shouldn’t exhibit a problem like that, but I guess you never know. It would be a software issue though, so a new printer driver would fix the problem (which means it’s possible people have seen it during a brief window of time when a buggy printer driver was provided).

I will point out that without extra work on the user’s part (adjusting the print size by changing the image resolution with or without resampling), one is almost *always* dealing with a fractional resolution somewhere in the loop. So if this were an issue worth worrying about, I’d think it’d show up a lot more often. Most people do not ever touch the image’s resolution setting.

So, I’d say that for sure one should not waste any time worrying about fractional resolution, if that’s otherwise consistent with their goals, but that if they DO see weird printing anomalies, it might be worth ensure the image has an integer resolution, just in case that’s what’s going on.

Pete
P
Phosphor
Sep 23, 2003
Okay, on the subject of resolution, here’s one that’s making my head ache. I’ve been fooling around with my new canon s400, which would be an amazing camera in the hands of someone qualified to use it (not me, yet) and I saved part of an image as a jpeg using save for web.

Fine. But I noticed when I looked at the resulting jpg in mac os x preview, the detail wasn’t as impressive as it looked in Elements. Well, I was fooling around looking in the preview prefs to change another setting and I saw that "ignore dpi" is on by default. So I turned it off (i.e. told the computer, yes, consider dpi now), expecting maybe to see the image shrink down to approximately print size as a result. Instead it got bigger.

Can anyone explain that? It seems a direct contradiction of everything that’s ever been said about absolute resolution for onscreen display.
BB
Bert Bigelow
Sep 23, 2003
As I recall from many readings, the problem (printer vs. image resolution) is this: Chuck, you said most of this. The printer uses multiple dots of ink to create a pixel. If the resolution is too high…i.e., pixels are too small…then the printer cannot cram enough ink dots into the pixel area to accurately reproduce the color specified by the C, M, Y and K values. Therefore, resolutions higher than 300 dpi can actually DEGRADE the print quality.
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 23, 2003
"Barbara Brundage" wrote in message
[…] I was fooling around looking in the preview prefs to change another setting and I saw that "ignore dpi" is on by default. So I turned it off (i.e. told the computer, yes, consider dpi now), expecting maybe to see the image
shrink down to approximately print size as a result.
Instead it got bigger.

Well, it all depends on the resolution that is stored with the image AND on what exactly the preview program does when it is supposedly "ignoring" the resolution of the image.

Is "Ignore DPI" the exact wording of the checkbox? I did a search of Apple’s Mac OS X support database and didn’t see anything relevant.

That said, I think what you saw makes sense. I’m guessing (without having actually used that feature) that "save for web" sets the resolution to 72 dpi. The Mac display is probably 96 dpi. When the preview application is ignoring the DPI in the image, you get a one-for-one pixel mapping. But when you turn that off, it has to stretch the image to get it to come out the "same size" on the monitor.

Depending on what the actual numbers are, the amount it gets bigger would vary. But showing a 72 dpi image on a 96 dpi display would be a 33% increase in size.

Pete
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 23, 2003
"Bert Bigelow" wrote in message
[…] The printer uses multiple dots of ink to create a pixel. If the resolution is too high…i.e., pixels are too small…then the printer cannot cram enough ink dots into the pixel area to accurately reproduce the color specified by the C, M, Y and K values. Therefore, resolutions higher than 300 dpi can actually DEGRADE the print quality.

That scenario should NEVER cause a lower-quality printed image than reducing the image resolution in Elements (or other editing package).

It’s not like the printer driver tries to cram all those tiny image pixels into a small number of printer pixels. It’s smart enough to do exactly what you’d do in Elements, downsampling the image to reduce resolution to something useful. Plus, since it knows how the printer works (Elements does not), it can actually do a better job than Elements can.

Pete
P
Phosphor
Sep 23, 2003
Hi, Pete. Yes, that makes sense about the dpi. I’m still used to the old mac idea of a screen res of 72 dpi whereas this monitor must be considerably higher.

The actual dialog is "ignore DPI for "Actual Size", incidentally.
P
Phosphor
Sep 23, 2003
Hmm, it gets stranger. I just tried opening the original psd file in Preview and it doesn’t make any difference to the size whether the box is checked or not, and that one is 180 ppi.
JF
Jodi Frye
Sep 23, 2003
Ok I just printed a 5 X 7.. at 400 res and my printer was happy to print it at 720 dpi. I find the 720 dpi preserves ink and the quality is superb so why go higher ? Anyways, the print is beautiful and the colors are perfect…yes. Thank you.

Leen, I tried your method earlier today with an 8 X 10. I let the printer reduce the image percentage and the quality seemed good. I was going to print another identical image and re-size in Elements first but I ran out of paper ;( Can’t get more t’il friday so the test will have to be on hold. I knew it would work actually because my specific printer can be used without a computer..it has the memory card slot built in and therefore the printer would have to reduce the size of the image for the built in picture packages. I did use this feature when i first got the printer because I did not have a computer and yes, the images printed with perfection…full bleed. However, do all printers have the option to reduce the image before print without using a program ? I suspect they do.
JF
Jodi Frye
Sep 23, 2003
EDIT; OOps, that last paragraph was meant to address Pete Duniho.
BB
Bert Bigelow
Sep 23, 2003
However, do all printers have the option to reduce the image before print without using a program ?

I have an HP and an Epson printer. I never read any description of downsampling before printing, but maybe they both do, dunno. I did some experiments a year ago with the Epson (Stylus Photo 780) printing same size images that I had scanned at 300ppi and 600 ppi. There was very little difference, but it seemed to me that the 300 ppi was slightly sharper. Maybe my imagination. You may be right, Peter, but I KNOW I read about the pixel size problem. I’ll try to remember where I read it…
Bert
LK
Leen Koper
Sep 23, 2003
Jodi, I don’t mind you are using my name instead of Pete’s. It shows I ‘m on your mind and I ‘m so glad to know this. BTW: My wife doesnot read this forum. You made my day! 😉

Leen
O
OldnSenile
Sep 25, 2003
Chuck and Bert:

The following link is one possible source which defines a practical upper limit (~350dpi) to image pixel size for printing:

<http://www.studio-nelson.com/inkjet/prnres2.htm>

<http://www.studio-nelson.com/inkjet/prnres0.htm>

These tests were done a couple of years ago with HP970cse (2400×1200 color) and Epson 870 (1440×720)printers.

It helps me, to think of the printer spec "dpi" (although generally adjustable as a selectable print quality), as analogous to the (fixed) monitor display dot pitch.

The selected (video card) display resolution (e.g. 800×600 pixels at full screen) is superposed on (and made up of) the monitor (phosphor) dots, and it determines the displayed image size of an X-pixel (width) by Y-pixel (height) photo file.

The printer dot dither pattern (though more complex)is analogous to the simple regular pattern of monitor color phosphor dots. The application (e.g. Elements Picture Package) and printer driver use the specified image dimensions, to re-sample the photo file pixels for the selected print quality, where one or more dither patterns will represent a given image pixel. (This process is still a little fuzzy to me, and the printer manufacturers don’t seem to provide much information.)

Any expansion, clarification, or contradiction of my thoughts, will be appreciated.

OldnSenile
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 25, 2003
"OldnSenile" wrote in message
[…]
Any expansion, clarification, or contradiction of my thoughts, will be
appreciated.

Well, things to keep in mind:

* The test shows that output quality depends as much on things like volume of ink as it does on printer resolution

* While I understand where he’s getting is "350-400" dpi figure from, one need look no farther than the Epson 800 dpi horizontal sample in his results to see that the printer IS capable of resolving single 800 dpi pixels. You just need the right settings.

* There also appears to be some slight round-off errors in his test. This is most likely due to the resolution differences between the original image, the printer, AND the scanner, and results in uneven spacing between some of the lines in several of the samples. Ironically, this kind of error will make a choice of resolution that’s slightly lower than the printer’s actual resolution look *worse* than using the correct resolution, matching the printer’s actual resolution. This error in particular confounds the usefulness of his test, by artificially making the results worse than they could be. His test images should have been printed at even fractions of the printer’s actual resolution.

* These printers are much lower resolution than those available today. Not only do newer printers have higher resolution, but they are capable of much smaller volumes of ink per pixel, even relative to the change in resolution.

With respect to that last point, one thing his test does make clear is that, even two years ago, noticeable gains are possible when going past the traditional "no one needs more than 300 dpi" resolution. That is even more true today. With a printer that can print square 2880×2800 pixels, even going just from the test you’re referencing, it’s clear that one can benefit from *at least* an image resolution of 720dpi, and 1400dpi will likely look even better.

Given that the new ink jet print heads are capable of putting VERY tiny amounts of ink onto the paper, it’s entirely possible that going right up to the printer’s maximum resolution will produce noticeable improvements.

Pete
O
OldnSenile
Sep 26, 2003
Pete:

Thanks for your analysis. However, you seem to imply that the newer printers apply much smaller ink droplets. Specs for the Epson 870 (of the reference) show a 4-picoliter drop size, which is the same as that of the new Epson 2200 (2880×1440 dpi). I believe That the HP 970 droplet size was 5-picoliter, in comparison to 4 to 5 picoliter for newer HP printers, as best I can determine from the HP web site.

I did find a bit of info on the HP "dither" (up to 29 drops of ink on a single pixel and to 17,400 drops of ink per inch):

< http://www.hp.com/cposupport/multifunction/support_doc/bpu02 182.html>

OldnSenile
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 26, 2003
"OldnSenile" wrote in message
[…] you seem to imply that the newer printers apply much smaller ink droplets. Specs for the Epson 870 (of the
reference) show a 4-picoliter drop size

Epson’s 960 has 2 picoliter drop size, 2880×1440 dpi, a full 50% reduction in ink volume.

I did find a bit of info on the HP "dither" (up to 29 drops of ink on a single pixel and to 17,400 drops of ink per inch):
< http://www.hp.com/cposupport/multifunction/support_doc/bpu02 182.html>

Actually, that document describes a slightly different mechanism from what is traditionally considered "dither". Of course, in the end, it’s all just mixing a few colors to fool the eye into thinking there are more. It just goes to show, the different manufacturers have a variety of ways of implementing the technology, but in the end, the results wind up being about the same.

Even with PhotoREt IV, HP also has to use more traditional dithering. 289 "shades" is a long way from 24-bit color. 🙂

Pete
O
OldnSenile
Sep 26, 2003
Pete:

That minute (2 picoliter) drop size of the 960, certainly is amazing. Though, I wonder what percentage of the printers available today, have that capability.

OldnSenile
PD
Peter Duniho
Sep 27, 2003
"OldnSenile" wrote in message
That minute (2 picoliter) drop size of the 960, certainly is amazing. Though, I wonder what percentage of the printers available today, have that capability.

The point is simply that there’s nothing magical about "300 dpi". Already, consumer printers exceed that, even accounting for the color/spatial resolution tradeoff, and that every year, 300 dpi is farther and farther away from the optimal resolution for printed images.

Even if the 960 was the only printer exceeding the specifications of those used in the test (and it’s not), the point would be valid.

Pete

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