I received an odd note tonight from ‘Microsoft’ – looked very legitimate, said to be a cumulative security patch. DON’T INSTALL!! See the website below for info on the new Swen worm that this transports…
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Chuck, Microsoft has cautioned customers in the past against "e-mail software updates", saying it does NOT distribute patches that way but rather directs them to its Web site.
Same old,… same old! Keep AV program AND definitions up to date, download all critical updates for windows and don’t open files from non trusted sources.
Also, NEVER, EVER run a program, screen saver, greeting card, slideshows, patch, fix, patch, update, upgrade received over e-mail or in popups. Even if it comes from a friend, no matter how close he or she is. In this particular case, contact the friend first thing after receiving this e-mail and make sure he or she sent it deliberately. Many, many times, viruses will spread themselves using an infected computer’s address book. So in many case, the message seems legitimate but in fact, it contains a virus.
If it’s too good to be true, it probably is. If a major company sends you an update over e-mail, it probably isn’t safe. 99% of the times, company will have a website from which you can download patches. They won’t go into the trouble of sending the patch to their users. They will, most likely, invite them to download it from their website. But again, I make it a policy to visit the websites myself, even if I receive an invitation that links to their website. Here’s an example :
ICQ hoax is a common one : you receive an e-mail that asks you to give them your username / password or else it will be deactivated. It comes will a full HTML page, containing real links to ICQ website. In fact, the sender wants you to give your coordinates, for it can use it. If you don’t pay attention, you’re likely to end up giving your private information. But, when I opened the HTML code of the e-mail, I discovered the problem (the reply server doesn’t math ICQ’s).
Be carefull people, and get yourself an anti-virus 🙂
I just got barraged with two more from different addresses, plus two different viruses from other sources. Fortunately, NAV took care of the last two, right after it had run its normal weekly update of definitions. Hope it wasn’t too late, though….if you don’t see me for a while it’ll be because one of them got through…
Yes i got the messages and deleted them and Norton downloaded a quicky update just afterwards so i suspect they were one step ahead of Norton. I’m going to go do a scan. Later people. Chuck, thanks for the verification !
I’ve got the "record breaking" 11 messages within 24 hours. Tonight, I slept about 6 hours and in the meantime 24 spam mails came in. I’m glad I cannot lay my hands on these guys.
Is it me or is the number of spam e-mails have just doubled in the last 24 hours? While on vacation, I received 68 junk e-mails at my Hotmail account and 214 in my regular e-mail account. Now, I was gone five days, so it makes an average of 56 e-mails per day. Now, just yesterday, I deleted over a 100 e-mails.
I’ve got the "record breaking" 11 messages within 24 hours. Tonight, I slept about 6 hours and in the meantime 24 spam mails came in. I’m glad I cannot lay my hands on these guys.
Leen
I have received 8 of these messages so far this morning. Ken
Geeze, now that my mail is working again….I get all these virus mails. About 12 since last night. Norton beat the crap out of them for me. He’s a good boy. I thought ‘ol Bushie put a threat up againts these virus producers…jail time and a fine…but it’s not stopping them. bastards.
It’s the worst virus attack I’ve ever seen. I’ve had like 25 of this MS Security thing since yesterday. Some people have way too much free time, I’m telling ya… 😉
I was wondering what all those messages were, as they were addressed strangely, and looked sort of homemade. They tried to make them look official though.
Plus, I have a Mac, so wouldn’t be on any Microsoft list anyway. Delete, delete, delete, and delete some more,,,,,,,,
Thanks for the warning, as there are some people who these wormey spammers could fool. Jane
I figured out right away it was some kind of new computer threat, because, like Jane, I knew there’s no way MS would have a Mac user in their database! I’ve gotten four this morning, so I guess I’m getting off light.
There is one thing I cannot understand. If hackers can work their way into the Pentagon computers, into banking systems etc. why can’t they get into these computersystems and "smoke them out of their holes"(funny old American expression)? I cannot -and will not- believe there is no way to sabotage these computers that pollute our computers.
Leen, I believe the whole issue has to deal with morality. Not because one get rub does he or she goes and rub someone else. Instead, we install alarm system to prevent another theif from rubbing us 😉
This virus is really very good. Today I had to delete twice (2 times 3 Mb) the contents of my incoming mail box as it was filled with the virus-mails. My computer expert tells me I have to sit it out but I wonder. I never had so much problems with a virus before. What I find strange is that it does not seem as if the virus is common knowledge, as if it is only going around forum users.
Robert, I’ve seen a write-up from a network administrator for one of the Texas universities indicating it was hitting them also. It may be that the addresses to which it has been sent have been ‘harvested’ from a number of sources, including this forum…
Barbara, thanks. I certainly didn’t mean to cast any aspersions on our forum….heaven knows where the virus spreaders get their lists…. Glad you’ve been spared the annoyance!
My Grandfather only knew about a half-dozen jokes (at least, he seemed to repeat the same handful over and over and over…), and one of them was almost identical… "what’s worse than finding a worm in an apple".
I think they taught it in "Father School" during that generation! It was a favorite of both my dad and father in law, and, of course, my husband just couldn’t resist passing it along. Did you guys spare your kids, or will they be talking like this about you guys, too?! 🙂
I have received countless numbers of these worm e-mails purporting to be from Microsoft………they were so persistent that I relented and took a *looksee*.and Bam!!!! I was infected and it crashed my whole computer…………..I could not launch any prorgams at all, so I had to reinstall Windows XP and I just spent about 15 hours rebuilding my whole software array………….had to re-install a ton of programs and tweak them all back to my preferences………….NOT a fun day, but it’s a good thing that I, at least, know enough to get my system back up…….
Everyone, PLEASE watch yourself and heed your virus protection………..if you are not up to date in your virus definitions.GET UPDATED!!!
Just trying to help……….
Brucie (just got 2 more while I’ve been wroting this)delete-delete ************************************************ "Beth Haney" wrote in message
I think they taught it in "Father School" during that generation! It was a
favorite of both my dad and father in law, and, of course, my husband just couldn’t resist passing it along. Did you guys spare your kids, or will they be talking like this about you guys, too?! 🙂
OK I have absolutely freekin’ had it with this worm!!!!!. It is almost the only mail i get EVERY time I check my mail ! I want to kick the bastards in a way that they’ll never be able to ‘sit’ behing their freekin computers again…< steaming…….> Seems like a coincidence that this is happening shortly after the new school year ? Is some freekin proffessor teaching on the ‘art of creating viruses ???? I’ve had it ! ….< venting….>
Mine quit about as quickly as they started. I got five or six in a row and then nothing more. The virus filter from the ISP wasn’t picking them up, although they do snag two or three a day from some other jerk who keeps trying to send messages infected with a virus. Maybe the ISP filters don’t do as well filtering worms as viri?
Alright I’ve had enough! I own a Mac so I don’t have to worry about viruses right? Wrong, because the rest of the world uses Window’s I now get to suffer through downloading and deleting 10 or 20 of these "security patches". Arrgh! Good thing I’ve got broadband or I’d really be mad. 🙁
You know, if you all would just make the switch I wouldn’t have to deal with this. 😉
LOL !!!!!! I believe (I may be wrong) that Mac don’t face viruses that much because of their expensive price (less teenagers can afford them, and less PWTMST).
Someone posted a question asking if viruses were thought at school (I can’t find that post again). I know I did. I’m a graduated computer analyst. And at time (1987, DOS era), we learned to make TSR (Terminated Stay Resident) programs. They were dormant modules, meant to be called upon a certain key combination or computer event (think of SideKick). Now, there was only one step to take to make this a virus (and of course, we all did it!)
Nowadays, viruses are totally different, because Windows doesn’t not accept TSR modules anymore. But still, some of their basic principles are thought at school, part of the process of learning how to "deal" with Windows.
LOL !!!!!! I believe (I may be wrong) that Mac don’t face viruses that much because of their expensive price (less teenagers can afford them, and less PWTMST).
Sorry Ray but you are indeed wrong. 🙂 With this recent spate of viruses (sobig, blaster, etc), there was a pretty big debate on exactly why Mac’s are much less prone to infection. The mainstream press pretty much jumped on the Security through Obscurity myth: virus creator’s don’t write for the Mac because they want to wreak havoc on the 95% of the world that uses Windows not the 5% that uses other platforms. In the subsequent days and weeks, many of these writers as well as at least one fairly well known computer security firm had to admit that the STO myth is just that, a myth, and that the Mac OS is inherently more secure and resistant to viruses (FYI there are no known viruses at all for OS X and only about 50-75 for the classic Mac OS, none of which have been active for many years).
Very interesting! Although UNIX (several favors) have been hacked in the past, on several occasions, it’s true that it’s way much harder to do anything damageable in UNIX than it is under Windows.
I remember a certain virus that could extract root’s password from any account… But since then, the bug has been fixed.
The plan is still on the table. I’m expecting a bonus in March, a bonus that should cover half the price of a G5. Unless Santa is really, really generous this year (been a good boy all year long!)
Mac users do not feel cocky. There is a reason that many companies producing anti virus software for Macs
While the majority of virus worms and the like are spread by PC it is because there are more PC out there to spread them. Just as the market is larger for software writers in the PC world it is also a larger market for Hackers.
Macs have had their share of viruses to name a few there is Mac.Simpson, and CODE-252. Also that wonderful OS X is susceptible to the Sobig Worm. It should be noted that while Macs are not affected by viruses like the W32.Klez the are as capable in spreading as PC are. The first and only virus to be spread by a commercial CD was by a Mac software developer and they sold 30,000 copies of their software before the bugger was stopped.
So while Mac users are not as likely to be infected as PC the users caution should be taken. No matter what machine you are using it is wise to practice safe HEX.
I certainly don’t want to turn this into a Mac vs PC thread 🙂 (other than to point out that Mac’s are pretty impervious to viruses and/or worms), but I just have to point a few things out.
Mac users do not feel cocky. There is a reason that many companies producing anti virus software for Macs
I wouldn’t know, I don’t own virus software. Never had the need. 😉
While the majority of virus worms and the like are spread by PC it is because there are more PC out there to spread them. Just as the market is larger for software writers in the PC world it is also a larger market for Hackers.
Read the link Barb provided. You’re talking about the Security through Obscurity myth.
Macs have had their share of viruses
There are less than 100 know Mac viruses but for Windows there are over 70,000.
Also that wonderful OS X is susceptible to the Sobig Worm.
I have to doubt you on that one Grant. I haven’t heard of any Macs succumbing to Sobig. I don’t think it’s even possible.
the are as capable in spreading as PC are.
You’re right Grant, I’ll give you this one. Except that it’s not our (Mac users) fault that the dang virus exists in the first place. 😉
The first and only virus to be spread by a commercial CD was by a Mac software developer and they sold 30,000 copies of their software before the bugger was stopped.
My original source was a tad weak. In any event you will be able to fine other virus that affect and infect Linux based systems although not as many as PC virus. I am totally amazed that virus writing is not as popular with Linux as it is an open based system and the code is all there for the asking.
Hi, Grant. No problem. BTW, I’d never heard of Code-252, so I looked it up. Here’s what I found:
For the first half of the year the virus spreads, infecting applications and System files. During the second half of the year the following message is displayed if an infected application is launched or an infected system is started up.
"You have a virus. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Now erasing all disks… Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha P.S. Have a nice day Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha (Click to continue)"
No files or directories are deleted but a user may be tempted to restart their Macintosh, which could cause damage. This virus cannot infect applications from infected versions of operating system 7.0 and later and does not work under Multifinder in System 6. An infected Macintosh is likely to crash.
Note that this virus dated from 1992. I remember another one from about that time that Chuck and Barb might like–it made your computer play "Yellow Rose of Texas" whenever you opened a file. As far as I know, the only virus for the "classic" mac os that did much damage was the sevendust virus, which I think may be the one you are referring to re the infected cds, but again, that was back in 1997 or so, if I remember rightly.
Don’t forget all those Office macro’s (not really viruses per se) that were all the rage mid to late 90’s. We can thank Microsoft for those too.
As far as I know, the only virus for the "classic" mac os that did much damage was the sevendust virus, which I think may be the one you are referring to re the infected cds, but again, that was back in 1997 or so, if I remember rightly.
I don’t remember that one. Do you recall what it did?
Barbara, same thing happened to me last time. With the last worm (Blaster, I think it was called) everyone complained about it, but I never saw a single message. This time, I have been *hit*. Man oh man. At least 100 messages per day, which is extraordinary for me. I’ve never been on the receiving end of a worm in all my years of being on the net (heh heh, I make myself sound old, which I’m not, but I have been on the net for a while).
I’m glad I’m using a Mac. (that is, until someone decides to write a virus for them, but then I think that would be a *lot* harder than it would be for Windows machines)
Ya know, this stupid worm is still trying ! When will it end ? I can’t recall ever going through this before. When Norton picks something up it’s usually just once and then I don’t get anymore t’il the next one comes. I can’t recall Norton picking anything up for a couple of months and now…EVERY time I check my mail it’s the same blasted worm !!! Always 2 of them. One disguised as a patch for microsoft and the other is a mail delivery notice of some kind….always different wording for each every time. I hate this.
Same here. Always two messages. Those two however clogg up my intray since last thursday night. My provider suggested I should activate their spammer(?) which I did last night. Since then it caught (the) two messages but my intray still had 1 Mb of the same. My provider says that only a few people are hit by this virus.
My understanding of this worm is that you will receive it only if someone who has your email in their address book succumbs to the virus.
Consequently, if you are receiving a lot of the worm messages, it means that your email address is in the possession of a lot of persons who don’t practice good anti-virus techniques. How did these virus "slackers" get your email addresses? 😉
At the risk of jinxing things, I must state that I have not received a single copy of the worm, on any of my 8 email addresses…. a testament to the diligence of those people with my email in their address books.
Ok, got 10 this morning !!!! GRRRRRR …worse part is that I have dial up so i sit twiddling my fingers waiting to quaranteen each one that finally loads. I’ve had it !!!!
Of 35 messages this AM 32 of them were spam……..29 were the virus or worm in one form or another………..glad I have a cable connection and Mailwasher to bounce them, but it is still very annoying……..I have over 20 of these messages every time I open my e-mail, which is several times a day………
I wonder when (or if?) this is ever going to end………I’m with you, Jodi…….I’m sick of this…….
What i don’t understand is that not all windoze users are getting it. Why are we being singled out ? I was upset a week ago because I couldn’t send/receive mail because my isp was ‘working’ on it as they claimed. They obviously didn’t work on it hard enough. My server should have some sort of anti-virus to prevent this crap from entering.
Chuck, that’s ridiculous ! I got the mail where we were discussing a certain thread on the forum….the last i got from you was …"Jodi ya done good ;-)" …you sent something after that ?
I don’t suppose it’s possible for you to trace who sent you something this week so that we could thoroughly check our system? I know I did send you something, but I have since run several times Norton AV with no success (i.e. no viruses found).
I suspect you are not the one if you are practicing Norton’s.
Now it is virtually impossible to trace the virus as it does generate a bogus return address.
In any event I would like to ask people to first check their computers.
Then don’t send me Challenges at my regular address but only at my Challenge address. The virus that is sent out is over 140 k so I have filtered all emails to me at my regular address that exceeds 140 k
Not to worry the Challenge address doesn’t have this restriction.
Grant, can you narrow it down to an individual? I’ve found in the past that when someone whose computer is infected sends me a note, the virus-laden note comes at the same time or shortly thereafter….
p.s. I hope it’s not me….but I’m getting ready to change e-mail addresses if necessary…
I have been running regular Norton scans as well. What is on my mind is all those on that thread here a few weeks back that claim they don’t use Anti-virus software…..
I strongly suggest to anyone with a PC to go to Norton’s site, and run a web anti-virus version of their software. It will ask you to install an ActiveX control, nothing to be worry about.
You’ll have two choices in a second window that will open, take the second one (Virus Detection). Now, I don’t think it will clear the virus(es) but at least, you’ll know for sure if you have one.
I was going to e mail you this Ray but here is a link…..Just click on titles under "highlights". Don’t be deceived by them looking a little sleepy….as soon as their feet hit the ground they go go go…
Chuck, I called my isp and he said the problem was with a ‘spam’ thingy with certain isp’s like Road runner and comcast…not sure what Ray is using but it is probably something similar. He told me to use hotmail to write to those of you that can’t mail me. Anyways, i deleted your hotmail address by accident…please mail me. Thanks.
There is a new worm that spreads itself by harvesting addresses from newsgroups. These Adobe forum postings are cross-posted to Adobe newsgroups, with your real-email address attached. While it is good advice to avoid using real address in news groups, this can not be done here since the forum registration requires that you use a real address. Adobe does provide a method for masking your address from newsgroups, but it also means you can’t receive copies of discussions you are participating in by e-mail.
To mask your address, go to your account preferences, click on e-mail address preferences, and read the fine print. Or go to the Forum Comments Forum, click the FAQ link, then read the FAQ on news groups and e-mail addresses.
See how easy it is?
Of course, you will be locking the barn door after the horse has not only left, but is standing in the pasture with a thousand other horses throwing road apples through the farmhouse window.
Will one of the members who views via newsgroup please verify that my address is not visible? It looks like I’ve got the preferences set right, but I’d feel better if somebody confirmed that! My Mac might not be capable of "catching" this thing, but I can still get the annoying messages – always my first clue something is not right in the Windows world. 🙂
Thanks to both of you for checking. And, gee, Pete, if you really want my address, I’d be glad to post it here. I’ve done that several times, and nothing "bad" has ever happened. Adobe apparently has this forum set up in a way that either makes harvesting impossible or not worth anyone’s trouble. Three cheers for Adobe!! 🙂
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:59:44 -0700, "Beth Haney" wrote:
Will one of the members who views via newsgroup please verify that my address is not visible? It looks like I’ve got the preferences set right, but I’d feel better if somebody confirmed that! My Mac might not be capable of "catching" this thing, but I can still get the annoying messages – always my first clue something is not right in the Windows world. 🙂
I think the harvesting of e mail addresses goes on with only those that "show" their e mail address. I "show" a yahoo address so anyone has a way to e mail if they want but I also get over 100 e mails into the "bulk" folder (spam folder) on that address each and every day.
Not saying they all are because I am on this forum because I use that address wherever I go on the internet and I am sure most originate other places.
I seem to have enough trouble keeping tabs on one e-mail account, so I’ve never bothered to set up a second one. I consider it from time to time, but when I ask myself "why?" I can never come up with a good answer!
No spam is the answer! I get no spam because I don’t use my primary e mail for anything. (except mail from family and trusted friends). All those sites that require an e mail address don’t have to see your primary address.
I get very little spam anyway. The filter for my ISP is pretty good (although it didn’t consider the latest "Microsoft Patch" either virus or spam), and I do very little surfing. If the trade is my e-mail address to view their site – I pass. Some creeps in occasionally, but since I switched to Speakeasy from Earthlink a couple of years ago it hasn’t been a problem. And without a little bit of spam every once in a while I never would have met that nice man who wanted me to help him get $6M out of Iraq just before Bagdad fell. Gee… I wouldn’t have missed helping him for the world. 🙂
Earthlink is good! I think that is who bought out PeoplePC ISP. I was quite happy with PeoplePC for about 5 years and may go back if I decide this cable is not worth it.
I never had any trouble with Earthlink, but when we changed to DSL they just weren’t competitive. Well, I think they were, but the salesperson tried to tell me I had to pay the monthly fee for DSL service PLUS continue to pay the $21 or $22 a month I’d been paying for dialup access. Looking back, I’m pretty sure that was an error, but her version of the total cost was so much more than the Speakeasy price we were quoted that I politely thanked them for all the great service in the past and wished them farewell. We’ve been happy with the Speakeasy, though, so it doesn’t matter.
We considered cable, but the phone service where we live is much more reliable than the cable service is. Heaven forbid we should ever have power and yet have neither TV nor internet service. That would be devastating.
Getting back to the worm which ia absolutely annoying the crap out of me…i called my isp and he said that someone that has my e-mail address is infected with the worm.
I was going to e mail you this Ray but here is a link…..Just click on titles under "highlights". Don’t be deceived by them looking a little sleepy….as soon as their feet hit the ground they go go go…
Sorry to disappoint you on not hoping that if you don’t get any virus today tomorrow will be better.
That is what I thought two days ago. Since then the virus has been hitting me full strength.
The common explanation is that some one has our e-mail addresses. I doubt if it is some one as the virus goes on and on around the clock for more than a week now. Plus the message varies. In my detective mind that means that some one is changing the e-mails and that it all may be linked to some (spam)bot that has been primed to sent spam messages regularly and is now regularly sending us these viruses.
well, whatever it is and was or will be I’m still keeping my fingers crossed because i still have not received any since early this morning.
I would like the person/people who created this worm to get a life. One that has meaning. One that does not harm others in the process….otherwise, if the higher spirit is forgiving enough to grant you a new life…you may come back as a worm next time ’round….and not one that travels through the warmth of cyberspace either. I have pity for you.
well, whatever it is and was or will be I’m still keeping my fingers crossed because i still have not received any since early this morning.
Yes, so far so good here, too. Yay!!! (of course it probably just means that the millions who got infected have finally started running anti virus software to clean things up. But that’s OK! Whatever works!)
Leen, you read my mind…I really wanted to add " hope someone sticks a sharp edge up your…… so that someone else can at least benefit from your sorry…..
Seems to be winding down here in Europe. Possibly because of the weekend?
In order to avoid the attacks I have now installed two anti virus programmes and two spamfilters. It is just too silly for words. Are the days of innocence over for the web ?
I understand what you are saying. Just to explain. They both belong to Macafee. One is called stinger which is like a standalone version. The other one is "virusscan". The latter is always enabled so to speak and is catching viruses left right and center. Nonetheless I take your comment on board and shall inquire at my hardware supplier what I should do about it.
I am still getting these damned emails, usually four at a go. NAV finds ’em and I delete ’em but what a waste of my time and of the misguided idiots responsible. I suppose it’s better than mugging old ladies in the street but that’s the best I can say for it.
geeze, can’t microsoft come up with a way to kill this blasted thing ????? Afterall, the buggers are using their name in their stinking worm ! Bill, C’mon….do something !!!! I know this is sounding pathetic but I really hate checking my mail…’cause i know they are there…waiting, lurking in the dark for me to click ‘read mail’….grrrrrr ! Can’t we send something in to track this and kill it ? I know…sci-fi channel but geeze…there as got to be a way to end this…anyone have Bill Gate’s e-mail address ??? I want to talk him.
It’s not yet over in Europe. Today I got my typical 300-ish Kb (2 messages from Bill). Which is already an improvement of last week when I had 3 Mb!!! daily.
I agree with Jodi. It is extremely annoying. I find myself not e-mailing just to avoid new viruses. You automatically go and check first what spams and viruses you caught before you do anything else with your computer. You know what, I am one of the luckyier ones. Some people seem to get these things all the time.
And with these soothing words I clock off for the night.
On my public web mail account I am getting a lot of mailings but since it is web based I can only assume that they are infected since I do not download.
They are creative in naming the emails; Latest update; MS Update; Important Update; and the one that I liked the best, "someone is secretly interested in you". all with a file about 150 kb attached.
I’m just wondering if the pro-non anti-virus users have been to the Symantec website and downloaded the w.32.swen….removal tool yet. This wont end until the worm is killed….it obviously is living comfortably and spreading it’s stink in some of the pro-non virus users systems.
I’m sorry for the ‘attitude’ in my previous post. I guess this is really getting to me. It is not slowing down here. I have received at least 18 so far today. I depend on my e-mail from important people and when my mail is being intruded on a constant basis by something that can be prevented i get very annoyed.
Again, I urge everyone around here (Windows PC) to go to Norton’s webpage (even if you personnaly don’t like / have confidence in their product, do this as a favor to this group) and run the security on-line virus detection.
Well I don’t know what this one does, but I got hit by something and it was eating my hard drive. I kept on getting sectors going bad, and my hard drives are less then a year old.
This started just a little while ago, but it got to the point that I was having constant trouble with the drives. I have been up for the last 48 hours tring to recover from this, but no luck.
It got to the point that I disasembled my system, (all drives removed)and booted windows from the windows cd-rom. I wound up low level formating my drives (writing 0’s to all sectors) then reloading my programs, this was the only way I could get rid of it. So it might me a new one. Never again !
My sugestion people is to daily back-ups if you can. Do one one day when you know your system is clean, disconnect from your internet (ie: unplug your modem, disconnect your network card, if you can)for 24 hours, then do another set of back ups. Then you alternate your backup set each day.
That way if you get hit one day you will have a clean backup (viruses can be backed up on your system backup).
example: I clean up my system on the 29th and do a system backup set #1, 24 hours later on the 30th I do a new system backup set #2. I keep alternating these back ups, before I get my backup done on the 10th I get hit by a new virus I still do my backup that day (now it’s traped in my back up (this can be sent in to be anilized). I can completely purge the system (lose 1 days info) and restore from my backup of the 9th. Then do a new set of backups the next day.
A pain in the a– but it will help elimanate the viruses and give the anti virus supliers a chance for a vaccine. Me like most of you, tend to say it’ll never happen to me, WRONG.
With this one I just got hit by, I disconected from the network and the internet, wiped out my hard drive, reloaded all my software from the originale cd’s including windows. Did a full system backup, then and only then did I reconect my network cards, and my internet, and loaded my internet software. I have a backup set (set # 1) from yesterday (after the purge) and set my system to do an automatic backup set (set # 2) for tonight while I’m out.
I may be new to the digital darkroom, but I have been working with computers since the early 70s.
Emeril, thanks for the advice on backups. I don’t do them, and I really need to…what a hassle, though. I need to get rid of tons of stuff I never use first…
The virus started it’s crap on the 18th in the late evening. Norton caught on shortly after. All those who downloaded the supposed ‘ microsoft patch’ caught the virus. However, it is my understanding that those using Norton were updated with a w32.swen…removal tool which did it’s thing in the backgound. I had downloaded the removal tool from Norton from the very beginning ’cause I was extremely paranoid that ‘something’ had slipped in despite my cautions. After doing a search of my system 2 removal tools showed up…the one norton put in and the one i downloaded. A good way to find out if you have the worm is to put in your search engine.
I almost hate to mention it…maybe I’ll jinx myself…but I only got a couple of those "Microsoft Update" Emails a few days ago…none since. Of course, I was warned by this thread and didn’t open them. So…if the Email addresses were harvested here, they missed mine somehow.
Emeril, thanks for the advice on backups. I don’t do them, and I really need to…what a hassle, though. I need to get rid of tons of stuff I never use first…
Any chance this forum could adapt the convention of signaling off-topic posts with "OT" or some other indicator in the Subject line? That way those who have subscribed for informtion on Adobe Photoshop (the ostensible topic of the forum) have a convenient mechanism for skipping off-topic messages. My apologies to Chuck for using his message as the pretext for this query. —
Bert, I started this thread (I think…..it’s been a long and winding road!) and I’m still getting a couple dozen a day. I’m glad I’m on broadband, because I can see where the attachments would bog down a dial-up connection something fierce.
I posted originally to warn people not to open their e-mail from Microsoft; the Norton update came out about two hours after I received my first wormy mail and started the thread. You’re right, not an Elements topic, but I just thought a little heads-up was in order.
I ran the Norton thing that Ray posted – 23858 files, 0 infected.
Of course, I would have been extremely surprised if I had had anything, since I always have McAfee running, and I have received a grand total of ZERO of the worm-mails.
anyone have Bill Gate’s e-mail address ??? I want to talk him.
Now I’m not trying to start a platform war here, really. But (and it’s a big but) it’s not Billy G’s fault. The fault lies with anyone who continues to contribute to the Microsoft monopoly by sticking with and paying for Windows. You get what you pay for and if the 95% of the computing world continues to pay for Windows, Microsoft (Bill Gates) has no incentive to fix an inherently non-secure, virus/worm prone operation system.
Byron, it would be interesting if this thing was trackable, which it isn’t. I’d love to see if there was a common denominator among people here on the forum.
I run a Mac, as do several other regulars. We don’t have the worm but nonetheless have had the messages coming to us to one degree or another. I’ve only gotten six or seven during the entire run, but other Mac users have been inundated. I sympathize with those of you who religiously maintain your systems and are still being bothered by it. As a Mac user, I don’t think it’s fair to have to deal with all of this, either! 🙂
I don’t know that anyone is really bothered by it other than the fact that they are receiving mail with 150kb attachments, and have to delete them.
I guess those that don’t use a web based mail account also are having their antivirus "quarintine" it. But only one person on the forum has reported any destructive activity that I have read.
So its a little PITB getting the spam mail but that is the only bother. And there are Mac users that have said they have received mailings also so the OS does not even matter.
And there are Mac users that have said they have received mailings also so the OS does not even matter.
That’s true Pete, although we aren’t affected if we run the exe attachment. Until this latest worm I’d never really been affected by Windows viruses. I was getting 5 or 6 per day and although it wasn’t destructive, it was damned irritating to sit there and wait while they downloaded. For some reason the things got past Mail’s spam filter as well so I had to manually delete them all. It was a tragedy I tell you, a tragedy! 😉
Joe, you are absolutely right! Microsoft is making it ‘too’ easy for these idiots to create these blasted things. I just don’t think they are spending enough of Bill’s money to figure out a way to stop it from happening. Then again, I guess as long as it’s not ‘killing’ someone there is no real issue or rush for them to figure out the cure. Perhaps they would just assume have the viruses floating…so people can get their systems messed up and go out an buy another new PC ! Perhaps Bill’s employees are paid to create worms that crash systems….lol…imagine that 🙂 …stranger things have happened.
Perhaps they would just assume have the viruses floating…so people can get their systems messed up and go out an buy another new PC ! Perhaps Bill’s employees are paid to create worms that crash systems
Jodi, Given Microsofts past behavior, I wouldn’t suprise me one bit.
I think All of our ISP’s are working on this (as well as Microsoft writing patches) and I am sure Apple is also looking closely at these things.
All those extra attachments going as bulk mailings have to be stressing the ISP’s resources and are undoubtably a concern to them. Comcast and Roadrunner have recently installed new spam filters and others like Yahoo and Excite have either upgraded or are working to upgrade. (I am happy because Yahoo spam filter diverts all these e mails to a bulk mail folder that can be "one click" emptied 🙂
Ok, I’ll start out by admitting I am one of those stupid Windows users. So you can use that to calibrate what I am about to say. It is my impression (maybe wrong) that most viruses target Windows machines because there are a LOT more of them than there are Macs. So, I ask the question, and I really do not know the answer, so this is not a rhetorical question at all:
If virus creators targeted Mac machines, would the various versions of the Mac operating system be any less vulnerable to them than Windows?
Well, I guess it is a rhetorical question, because this is not ever going to happen. There simply aren’t enough Macs out there to interest the bad guys. It seems to me that the Mac virus defenses have never really been tested. Bert
Barbara posted a very detailed and interesting article on this subject, a few weeks ago. Basically, OS X is less suceptible to virus due to its design. Windows allows for processes to be started in the background (thus opening the door for viruses). I hope she can post the link back.
Bert, there have been a couple of recent articles in national publications examining this issue. I know where I saw the link to a couple, but I didn’t save it. I’ll try to find it tomorrow morning. As I understand it, the belief of many people purporting to understand all of this is that it goes beyond the fact there are simply more users of the Windows operating system. Apparently the way other operating systems are designed/written? – I don’t know the correct phrase – simply makes them less vulnerable. That’s not to say it’s impossible, but the fact Windows is an easier system to exploit, combined with the fact there are so many "targets" does contribute to the problem with viruses and worms within the Windows system.
Your question about the vulnerability of various Mac operating systems is interesting. I don’t remember seeing this addressed; the newest Mac OS is certainly a whole lot different than prior generations. My partially educated guess is that a virus written to effect Mac OS X and above might not effect the previous versions, or vice versa. Maybe somebody can find some information on this.
By the way, a person who has a Mac and uses either Virtual PC to run Windows on their Mac or who exchanges a lot of MS Word documents with people who have infected Win systems can pick up the virus, but it’s ability to cause serious damage is much more limited.
Ok, guys. I’ll take your word for it. But, it certainly IS true that not many people are attempting to infect Macs…as compared to PCs, don’t you think? It’s sorta like living in Lichtenstein and saying, "Look, those stupid Americans can’t even defend themselves from a bunch of terrorists." 🙂 Bert EDIT: It is obviously true, though that the Windows designers were more interested in providing seamless access to the Internet, and did not pay enough attention to security issues. Of course, the "open ports" problem is easily rectified with a $30 firewall program…but MS should have taken care of that without the need for third-party addons. EDIT AGAIN: As for Outlook Express and its myriad problems and vulnerabilites, I deleted it from my Windows installation completely a year ago. With that and McAfee Virus Scan, which I keep up to date religiously, I haven’t had any virus problems at all.
Ok, guys. I’ll take your word for it. But, it certainly IS true that not many people are attempting to infect Macs…as compared to PCs, don’t you think?
Bert,
How would we know if they are trying and can’t? Remember that the installed user base for Mac’s is around 30 million (10-15%). That’s a pretty big audience. If Mac’s were as easily affected as Windows I’m sure someone would be trying. I’ll try to dig up some links to add to the one’s Barb already posted.
"If I were a fame-driven cracker with solid technical skills, cracking a BSD-based system would be the fastest way to show off my capabilities," said Rich Morin, a programmer and consultant based in San Bruno, Calif.
"My suspicion, therefore, is that many crackers have tried this challenge and failed," Morin added. Still, he cautioned "nobody has any way to know for sure."
Mac OS X, for which there are no know viruses, is a BSD-based OS. mi2g, a London based security firm came out with this report < http://mi2g.com/cgi/mi2g/frameset.php?pageid=http%3A//mi2g.c om/cgi/mi2g/press/311002.php> last year which states that the Mac OS is one of the least vulnerable OS out there. Windows, the report states and to no ones surprise, is the most vulnerable.
Joe
EDIT: Don’t bother with the Sunspot article. It’s the same article that Barb already posted.
OK, I think between Barbara and Joe they snagged and provided links for the articles I’d read. Fine, so I slept in this morning. Besides, it’s almost noon where Barbara is, and I haven’t had breakfast yet!
Somebody mentioned open ports in a post, and it reminded me of something else. Did one of those articles mention this? Microsoft ships Windows with many ports open, and if the user doesn’t close them down after installation, security risks are increased. Whereas, Apple ships with vulnerable ports closed, and they have to be opened by the user. I don’t remember where/when I picked that up.
Microsoft ships Windows with many ports open, and if the user doesn’t close them down after installation, security risks are increased
Yes, I think that is true. I’ve done a little more reading on this whole virus vulnerability issue, thanks to the links provided in this thread. It appears the problem started with what one writer called "sloppy coding" by Microsoft, another stated that the open source code on which OSX is based was just scrutinized by a LOT more people before it was released, so the holes were closed. Regardless, Microsoft did provide patches which would have neutralized the latest Blaster and Sobig worms if people had installed them, and the open ports can be closed too. So, responsibility for the problem is partly due to user ignorance, not only for failing to take proper precautions, but also for opening suspicious attachments, etc.
I feel that my system is secure. I de-installed Outlook and bought McAfee Virus Scan and Personal Firewall Plus, which I update whenever they ask me to which is about once a week typically. I am careful in opening attachments, even though most likely Virus Scan would catch anything that was there.
so tell me about these ‘open’ ports that I am suppose to close. I’ve had my PC about 18 months now and this is the first I hear about it. I did install that patch a while back from the microsoft sight for blaster and sobig worms etc….I do have a firewall with Norton as well. Where is the step by step info on closing ports ?? I use dial-up so I think I’m kind of safer with it. I need info. Excuse my ignorance.
I use macafee viruscan as well and am quite happy with it. Instead of dialing in once a week you can also let them download an update whenever one is available. With that worm about a month ago I nearly got an update every day.
However, that is not the case at the moment although we here are all sufferes. What I understand from my provider is that there is no real threat out there. Well how about that? I also download regularly the windows "important downloads". Again windows searches my system and if I need an important download I am advised accordingly.
I wouldn’t mind learning a bit more about those open ports myself as weel.
At the Norton site run the other check. (you may have seen it right beside the scan for computer viruese) It may be called internet security check (or something close to that). After that runs you will get a report of any open ports and what to do to close them. Most of the time it is just adjusting security settings in Internet Explorer. They may recomend a firewall. Do you have your XP firewall active?
so tell me about these ‘open’ ports that I am suppose to close
If you have a firewall, I don’t think you have to worry about it.
Robert, This is really spooky. While I was reading your message about VirusScan automatic updates, a little window popped up saying "Your VirusScan has just been updated"…something like that. I forgot that I had enabled the automatic updates.
Robert, I think the firewall takes care of that. If it doesn’t close them, it monitors any activity and blocks access. It gives the user the option to grant access to outgoing access requests. No app gets access until it is granted, so when you first install it, you get a lot of queries for awhile until you grant access to the "trusted" apps.
Thank you for your explanation. I know some people who question the use of a firewall. They say it is a pain in the behind as you either set the access requirements too high so everything is blocked or you are asked a zillion times approval or the opposite, you relax the requirments up to a degree that you might as well have no fire wall at all. What are your experiences on this?
Robert, Well, it is a nuisance when you first install it, but that’s just for a couple of days. The program has to "learn" what apps are to be trusted. I suppose if a person constantly installed and removed software, it could be a problem. For me, my usage is pretty consistent, so once I got it established, it’s pretty much transparent. One of the options I can turn on is to trace back to the source anybody who "pings" me. I turn it on occasionally just to see who’s trying to get in. Most of them appear innocent, but you never know. Bert
The firewall in question is the XP firewall that is not a pain at all. There is no "training" or other "bother" to it, however the level of security it offers is not as high as one that would require training.
As far as my Norton Firewall it really wasn’t a pain. I had to allow for a few program updaters in the first month or so but after that I was fine. I also have the XP firewall enabled. I’m using Norton Internet Security Pro 2002. I plan on upgrading next June when my subscription runs out. Hope the new Norton in 2004 has a firewall !
Good morning, Jodi: I think I saw a link to Norton Internet Security 2004 on the Norton home page one of the times I was accessing the site for the subject of this thread…
For anyone else that uses Norton antivirus and has ran the "security check" PRIOR to June 23rd; There was a vulnerability discovered in Norton’s interface. If you run the security check again it removes this. There are instructions for removing manually if so desired but the recomendation is toi just run security check again.
Pete
(Jodi, Here are the categories it reports on)
Hacker Exposure Check Checks whether your computer allows unknown or unauthorized Internet communications.
Windows Vulnerability Check Checks whether basic information about your computer, including your PC’s network identity, is exposed to hackers.
Trojan Horse Check Checks whether your computer is safe from Trojan horses.
Antivirus Product Check* Checks whether you’re protected by a commonly-used virus protection product.
Virus Protection Update Check* Checks whether you’re safe from the latest viruses. Applicable if you have a virus protection product.
If one activates the native XP firewall, does that preclude getting Microsoft updates and patches, Norton AV updates? In other words, does the stuff that you want get through unimpeded? Ken
does the stuff that you want get through unimpeded?
Ken,
Yes.
I use the XP firewall active as well as a router and additional firewall and get all the MS security/critical updates. I also use Norton System Works (that includes Norton AV if you are not familiar) and get all the virus definition updates as well as program updates.
The firewall in question is the XP firewall that is not a pain at all. There is no "training" or other "bother" to it, however the level of security it offers is not as high as one that would require training
The firewall I was referring to was the McAfee Personal Firewall Plus, which Robert Schraven and I were discussing.
Ya, gets confusing because that was referring to posts about Jodi’s firewall. Maybe sometimes it is better to leave the entire original post up there 🙂
Probably my fault for no doing so on that one.
The firewall in question is the XP firewall that is not a pain at
all.
There is no "training" or other "bother" to it, however the level of security it offers is not as high as one that would require training
The firewall I was referring to was the McAfee Personal Firewall Plus,
Pete D, Thanks. Yes, I have Norton Definitions to 10/01/03. Have had 6 e-mails with .exe attachments, so far today, triggering off Norton. I quarantine and delete. Ken
Pete D, Thanks. Yes, I have Norton Definitions to 10/01/03. Have had 6 e-mails
with .exe attachments, so far today, triggering off Norton. I quarantine and delete.
Ken,
I also received that type e mail with attachment today again (all eluding to being Microsoft updates), but mine go to a web based e mail account and don’t even get as far as Norton.
For anyone following this that is not familiar; a web based e mail account receives and stores the mail on their server, like Yahoo and Excite for instance, versus my ISP e mail account that is downloaded to my computer when I open the e mail (Outlook express).
Ken, I suggest you get an account for web based e mail (free) and use that address when subscribing to any forums or use it whenever you need to supply an e mail address to someone other than friends and family. If you are using a dial up connection you don’t have to wait for attachments to download either! With web based you can see that there is a file attached but it does not download unless you click to open it.
(For others) we are posting a lot about this and the big message here is "Make sure you have a current Antivirus program and Also current definitions". You don’t want to innocently spread a virus.
Some ISPs offer the option to delete e-mails on their mail servers, instead of downloading it first onto your computer and delete after.
Look in your mail software for an option that says "only download the headers, or title", and make sure to configure your views to include the size of the e-mails. Anything that’s 144kb or 156kb is probably that nasty virus. If you’ve successfully configured your software but can’t retrieve the e-mail headers, you probably have an ISP that does not support this feature.
When you delete the header from within your own mail software, it issues a command that will be executed upon the next synchronization (connection). What this means is that your mail software will tell your ISP to simply delete the selected e-mails and not download them to your hard drive. So those annoying virus e-mails will never make their way into your computer, and will instead be deleted right from the mail server at your ISP.
But… Not all ISPs support this option. Some will force you to download e-mails before deleting them.
And, also, once an e-mail is deleted from your ISP’s server, there’s close to zero chances to undelete it. When you work locally, you may always go back and retrieve it from the "deleted" folder. On a server, it’s impossible unless you call customer service and they offer some help at that level (very, very rare!)
I have a dial up and my provider supplies a spam filter for free. That works. Today the filter caught 6 virusses similar to Kenneth. 4 out of 6 came in pairs with 2 minutes between the two messages of one pair. The other two came random. These 6 viruses never made it to my computer as they were caught by the serversoftware. Although it is not a guarantee it is comforting to know something else is trying to catch these things first.
Could it be that some of the links provided in a message is not secured and that we, all who click that link to view images, attract the virus?
Could it be that some of the links provided in a message is not secured
and that we, all who click that link to view images, attract the virus?
Yes, according to the description of some security update from Microsoft, that is possible. I don’t remember which update covered this issue. If you have downloaded and installed all of them, you should be safe.
Is everyone still getting lots of these messages every day? This is the first one I remember that has stuck around for so long……and been so prolific…….I’m still getting lots (20-30) of these every day……I have anti virus software and keep it updated so the virus itself never gets through (plus I delete and bounce it from Mailwasher) but it is getting very annoying to have to deal with it over and over and over…..
One day, Microsoft will be brought to its knees with one lawsuite or another. It’s like David and Goliath, the giant (128Mb core module) has met his nemesis, a simple 140Kb large program (a.k.a. virus).. 😉
Thanks for sharing this link with us!
I wonder what would happen if Microsoft was to be put out of business and that no more Windows would available… OS/2 would make a return? Apple would port its Mac OS X for the PC? Linux would be available defacto on all PCs? CP/M would resurface?
Ray P.S. For those outside of the computer business (or too young to remember), CP/M is the ancestor of MS-DOS.
Ray, I really don’t want to see them out of business. The majority stock holder is a very generous philanthropist. Just a little tweeking to get them to fix the program so that it is dependable and not derailed by a group of chronic malcontents. Ken
Just a little tweeking to get them to fix the program so that it is dependable and not derailed by a group of chronic malcontents.
Good one Ken! 🙂 Windows needs to be thrown out and completely re written. No amount of tweeking can fix this monster.
I wonder what would happen if Microsoft was to be put out of business and that no more Windows would available…
Peace on earth, good will toward men? Stable OS’s that don’t get hacked, wormed, infected with viruses? Fair competition and choice in the tech industry? That would be a good day indeed. 😉
Why would you have to go back to work? I guess I don’t want Microsoft completely out of business. I love Excel and use Word regularly (did I say that out loud? 😉 ) I’d just like the whole Windows thing go away. It’d make life so much easier. 🙂
Well, I wouldn’t really have to go back to work, but we’ve had MS stock for years, through many splits. It’s provided much more in our account than we thought it would, which is why I quit working before I was eligible to draw my retirement benefit. Without MS, things wouldn’t be quite as comfy. The economy up here is heavily dependent on high tech and the airlines. One guess how healthy it is; I probably couldn’t get a job if I needed one! Our town won’t even let WalMart build a store, so there go my prospects to become a minimum wage greeter, too. 🙂
I wonder what would happen if Microsoft was to be put out of
business
and that no more Windows would available…
Probably we’d have a bunch of people complaining that they can’t get a system that can’t be hacked, wormed, or infected with viruses! If anyone can really do it better why aren’t they? I doubt that much would be changed if Microsoft went out of business–just the problems and complaints would be directed in another direction.
I have gotten a lot of info from this strand–thanks for everyone’s input–just had to add my comment. Syl
The mail delivered today my Microsoft California Claims Form for the Class Action Suit. Though final determination not yet made, it looks like the ceiling in payouts will be 1.1 billion (though in vouchers). Up to $100 in claims, no proof of purchase needed. My copy came preprinted with my itemized purchases of MS software during those years (according to their records, but one is not limited of course to reconciling with them). I didn’t know a thing about it till this sheath of papers came in the mail today!
That’s actually a different class action suit I think. I can’t remember the details but it’s a California only deal where somehow <sarcasm> Microsoft overcharged for Windows? This new class action has to do with Windows being so incredibly vulnerable to viruses, worms and hacking. Check out the link I posted. You might be able to collect on that one as well, although it’ll be a while yet.
Well, I have to head off to jail now (and Windows XP 🙁 ).
I don’t put much stock in a house organ article like that, Joe. Microsoft’s biggest sin is that they are the most successful software company in the world, make that one of the most successful companies in the history of business that the world has ever known. Why do people hate them for that?
They have survived attacks by the Justice Department and several European governments, and of course countless lawsuits by competing companies whose main complaint is that they are not as successful. They have engaged in some questionable business practices, which, if they were less successful, would have been overlooked, as they are for most businesses.
Their software has problems…duh…it is produced by humans. Windows is an immensely complex and immensely powerful program. It does most things very well IMHO. Just a view from the "other side." Okay, ready…aim…fire! 🙂 Bert
I got two separate mailings from a "Florida" suit because I bought 2 computers during the time period the suit covers. Also bought office 97 and 2000 and a separate Publisher 2000.
(The computers qualify because of the OS as do the software purchases)
This sounds similar to the Calif one you got. From settlement administrator right? And this will happen only IF the court approves it, (which has not happened yet from reading this).
No, I’m not going to fire at you, Bert, except maybe one tiny jab at the end. 🙂 I think, though, your statement that Windows is an immensely complex and powerful program may be part of the problem. Does John Q. Public really need all that power, and is he capable of handling it responsibly?
I don’t hate Microsoft, and I don’t hate cars, guns, or alcohol, either. However, we all know that the irresponsible use of the last three can have serious repercussions for innocent bystanders. Maybe the time has come to acknowledge that not all people who use Windows are capable of handling IT appropriately. In order for viruses and worms to spread, there have to be people to help. Who here is willing to declare they believe that every person who goes to Best Buy and gets an entire system for $499 is going to go home and read up on the care and feeding of Windows? Or buy their annual subscription for Norton and then use it?
I don’t have a clue what Microsoft could/should/would do to modify their software to make it less easily compromised, but I do believe they ought to examine the problem and see if they can figure something out. I doubt the average user even needs some of the features that are currently making it vulnerable to attack. Every time I poke around in Windows, I spot things I don’t use and never will.
By now this entire situation goes well beyond being a platform issue, because users of all systems are suffering to some extent. When government agencies have to go offline because their systems have been taken out in a virus attack, me and my Mac are effected, too, and we don’t like it.
There is a way to get through this, but I don’t think sanctioning the status quo is it any more than I believe huge class action lawsuits that threaten a major corporation are the answer. Something’s got to give somewhere – without effecting my shares of MS stock, of course! 🙂
There is a way to get through this, but I don’t think sanctioning the status quo is it
Certainly not. I am sure there an army of programmers at MS working on this. I am not smart enough about operating system design to say that they should or should not have done this or that to fix the virus/worm/hacker problems. I suspect it is a very complex problem.
You are probably right that MS has included too much capability, too many features, in their Windows products. I love the Office Suite…I’ve used it at work and at home for many years. It is a very powerful set of tools, but it occasionally frustrates me, because it ASSUMES what I want to do, and tries to help. Trying to convince it that NO, that is NOT what I want to do is sometimes difficult. In trying to make it user-friendly and helpful, they have overdone it in some cases. It’s hard to fault them for that, though. The motivation is clearly in the right direction. The same may be true for the various incarnations of Windows. I think MS has a "grand view" of Windows role as the "Swiss Army Knife" of operating systems that can host everything from professional CAD systems to Networking to Entertainment to Internet browsing. Maybe that’s too ambitious. A "suite" of smaller, less complex programs to handle the different applications might be better. Dunno. As I said, I’m not an operating system designer. Bert
Beth is a happy camper! She runs a Mac OS computer and owns MS Stock! Beth, you got it! 🙂
Bert, I won’t start a malicious (perhaps not the right word) thread against Microsoft, but it’s a known fact that they are where they are because of "objectionable" business practices. So if they go down at some point, which I really don’t believe will happen, you certainly won’t hear a lot of complains from other businesses (or even their partners), either within or outside IT (Information Technologies).
I’d really like a port of Mac OS X on PCs, though. It would be nice to have a graphic and a business operating system available on the same platform. I don’t say that Apple can’t do business or that Windows can’t do graphics, but given each strenght, one has to realize that graphically speaking, Mac has it, and business wise, it’s Windows. So, having both on the same machine would be very handy.
"Something’s got to give somewhere – without affecting my shares of MS stock, of course!"
Good one, Beth! And Chuck, I could launch into a littany of why I have some many bad feelings for MS, but I won’t. It’s kind of like beating a dead horse, anyway.
I am of the opinion that one of MS’s big problems is that it is, indeed, so big. Much is promised by one division without proper coordination with others, and as a result, many things slip by that probably wouldn’t have had everything worked right in the beginning.
And besides, what kind of world do we live in where we all "think" we buy software, which is not ours after we buy it, isn’t warranted to work at all and which we can do nothing with or about?
Having my cake and eating it, too, Chuck? You bet!!! The last new computer in this house was a Win machine, so it’s not like I’m not making any contributions to the cause. What MS needs to do is get the concession for Tylenol, too, because I bet a whole lot has been sold over the last few weeks.
Ah, yes, Bert, Office. The only piece of software I’ve ever used that I love and hate simultaneously. I’m going to hate having to give up my Office 98, because I’m afraid of what all they’ve done to "improve" it in the last five years!
I’m not an operating system designer either, and right now I wouldn’t want to be; I’m headed for the Tylenol again just thinking about it.
I don’t put much stock in a house organ article like that, Joe.
You definitely have to consider any source. The article though just points to the lawsuit. That’s the important point.
They have survived attacks by the Justice Department
Thanks to a convenient regime change at the White House. They wouldn’t have survived as a whole company if not for that. And the European’s aren’t done with them either. Asia has the right idea. Four countries over there (China, Japan, Indonesia, and one other I think)are going to jointly develop an Open Source OS.
Beth said it perfectly:
By now this entire situation goes well beyond being a platform issue, because users of all systems are suffering to some extent. When government agencies have to go offline because their systems have been taken out in a virus attack, me and my Mac are effected, too, and we don’t like it.
That sums it right up for me.
I don’t hate Microsoft because it’s successful. In fact I love the Microsoft Macintosh Business Unit. Office X is amazing and I use it every day. The MBU has been very successful because they do a great job putting out great products. I hate Microsoft for as Ray put it their "objectionable" business practices (and for letting Windows loose upon the world 😉 ). Microsoft could take a lesson from it’s own MBU, IMO.
I wonder what would happen if Microsoft was to be put out of business and
that no more Windows would
available…
The power-dorks are hacking Windows because it’s the most common system out there and their objective is to irritate people. That’s why they don’t pick on the less common systems. If Microsoft disappears, something else will become the dominant system, and the hackers will go after that one. These viruses aren’t about the cracks in Windows, it’s about the anti-social defects in the hackers. Removing Windows doesn’t change that.
P.S. For those outside of the computer business (or too young to
remember), CP/M is the ancestor of
MS-DOS.
Actually, for those of us old enough to remember (dammit), the original IBM PC used the CP/M operating system. It was so awful and unusable by the non-techie audience that IBM was after that they abandoned CP/M and bought DOS from Microsoft. Anyone who has one of those original Z80 CP/M IBM PCs has a genuine collector’s item.
I read the Reuters article. What struck me is that MS is being sued for the actions of criminals who penetrate their system and do damage. Also, I noted the statement that Windows represents a threat because it is so widely used. Lemme see if I understand this: MS is liable for damages inflicted by criminals because TOO MANY people willingly bought their product, and failed to take available protective actions to prevent the damage.
Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?
There’s always a notion of reasonable assumption. Here’s an example (pure fiction here!):
My newly created tool can make holes. So I told you in the ad. You buy it, you play with it, making holes everywhere you need, and you’re happy. You assume I tested it before I offered it on the market, right?
Your neighbor buys my product. He saw you make holes in the concrete and around the house, and you still have a smile on your face. A happy customer, he thinks. He goes ahead, and starts making holes in a titanium alloy plate on his hobby thank (he’s a retired military guy!). It creates sparkles. It burns is house. He assumed, just like you, that it was a safe product, and that my testings would have included a titanium alloy.
What then ? First, a couple of guys with dark suits are probably going to ring at my door the following morning, and will ask for proof of what I did to back my sayings… Then, as more customers buy it, they will probably realized I had not thought of everything that exists on Earth. Am I liable because of this?
Did Microsoft made sure their products were safe? What kind of measure(s) did they put in place to ensure a certain level of security? Define a certain level of security? Then define maximum security? Define a normal usage? Define software abuse? Because they periodically release information on their product, and that this information includes a way to penetrate a system as an explanation of what is vulnerable, are they liable for that as well? Am I to assume that I bought something defective out in the box? And that I needed to periodically go through a series of steps to ensure it’s security (and mine in the same time)?
Reasonable assumption, in this case, is that (in my opinion) Microsoft should have made several efforts (if not every efforts) to deliver a product that is secure and does not pose any threats to my data and/or computer. Reasonable assumption does also includes the fact that if the product is used for what it’s advertised, the way the manufacturer tells me, it should be safe to use it for the purpose it was bought. Like surfing the web, or installing Messenger, because those functions are included in the box. In light of the various patches (zillions, I’m tempted to say!) I had to install on my system, I’m not sure everything was thoroughly tested… and everybody using Messenger knows how dangerous the "vanilla" version is.
Take another example : do you buy a car, than install security devices to ensure your security while driving it? Of course not, they are supposed to be delivered with the car, and be safe to a ceratin level. Which they usually are.
I’m not saying Microsoft is guilty of anything. Perhaps this business is slowly stepping out of its infancy and maturing to a certain point where softwares will have to be tested by an independant groups, show creditials before being offered to the customers, and be supplied with a form of warantee. Like every product on the market. Would you buy a digital camera untested, no warantee, with no asssurance it can indeed take pictures and store them on a media?
To clarify, Bert, I don’t believe, and I never said, that MS should be held liable for the actions of criminals. Like Chuck, I think issues of product liability are totally out of control, just like I think damages for personal injuries and many other things lawyers love to take on are out of control. If I’d been the woman at McDs who was so stupid to take the lid off a cup of coffee while it was sitting in my lap, I would have been too humiliated to even mention it. She should have considered herself lucky if they’d agreed to pay her medical bills and then gone slinking away.
I happen to fear the possibility of class action suits against MS, because our economy – especially here in Washington – can’t take much more battering. However, I do think their standing in the world gives them an obligation to vigorously address the problems that are surfacing with more and more frequency. They were smart enough to design the world’s most sophisticated and widely used software, so they ought to be able to figure out how to close a few of the holes. Maybe they ought to hire a few dozen hackers and get some fresh ideas. 🙂
Beth and Ray, I cannot argue with anything you say. Frankly I do not know enough about operating system design. Should they (MS) have been able to anticipate the intensity and sophistication of the attacks? There seem to be an awful lot of pretty brilliant people out there who are spending a lot of time and effort trying to break the Internet, as well as Windows. Who would have ever thought that would be a problem? Of course, now it’s been a problem for awhile, and now we seem to be in the mode where "If a programmer can devise a lock, some other progammer can devise a key." Sort of like Electronic Countermeasures in warfare. Or so it appears to me. It still bothers me that even though MS has made fixes for some of the security problems available, fixes which would have neutralized tha last two big viruses that caused mayhem on the Internet, many people did not bother to install them, and now want to sue MS. I think it’s a big bad world, and people have to learn to take reasonable precautions to protect themselves and their property. In other words, they have to take personal responsibility for themselves and their actions (or lack of action) and not always blame someone else. To paraphrase Beth’s remarks, if I had been infected by SoBig or Blaster, I would have quietly fixed the problem and not told anybody about it. I would have been much too embarrassed by my own stupidity to let anyone know about it. Bert
I think it’s a big bad world, and people have to learn to take reasonable precautions to protect
themselves and their property. In other words, they have to take personal responsibility for themselves and their actions (or lack of action) and not always blame someone else.
100% with you! It’s the same thing for every piece of electronic you buy. You need to perform a little home maintenance every now and then (a VCR, for example, with a head cleaning tape). Perhaps software manufacturers shoud ship their products with some kind of educational material (a VHS tape explaining the steps to ensure the safety of the machine?, or a wizzard that takes control over the computer for a certain time untill the user can safely maintain his / her machine?)
99.9% of the viruses currently circulating on the internet are probably the result of someone lacking the knowledge about computers. Educating the people would certainly make a difference.
Beth, I’m not a Windows user by choice, believe me. Before that, I used Linux, and before Linux I was running OS/2 (both of them never crashed in all the time I had them). My current job requires me to run a piece of software on my computer to connect to the office’s LAN. So, it’s Windows or Mac. Mac was too expensive at the time, but soon I’ll be able to afford it.
I do not fully agree with you what you say in item 212 regarding the need for consumers to take more resonsibilty themselves. What if I transpose this to car driving or even flying by aeroplane? You have to rely to a certain degree on the equipment you use being reliable and in good working order.
I guess a little of both is required. You need to assume that what you buy is functionning properly, but then you also need to do a little maintenance yourself. Like a car, you need to change the oil, add windshield washer liquid, etc. But, you also assume that the engine will start every morning, and that you won’t have to change spark plug every time you use it, or recalibrate the electronic injection computer everytime you press the gas pedal…
I’m currently shopping for Winter tires (I am sure, this is a big, big, big surprise for all of you!). My criterias : be able to drive when there is more than 2 inches of snow on the ground, but not more than 8 inches (a sport car hasn’t that much space between its frame and the ground anyways), be able to maintain stability at an average speed of 70Kph on ice.
Jodi, I did the refill thing once. Never will I do it again! It was a complete mess! There was more ink *outside* the thank then inside! 😉 (but, it gave me a nice tatoo on the arm… lol!)
Ray, I thought that damn ink would NEVER wear off my fingers! Repeated washings did absolutely nothing.
I think you were absolutely right when you said that the responsibility for correct maintenance/operation of any product is shared between manufacturer and user. One of the more deplorable aspects of our society is the eagerness of so many people to seek a lawyer at every opportunity. I read too often of awards that juries have made to people who filed frivolous lawsuits against the manufacturers of products that they misused through their own ignorance/stupidity. But the problem is, where do you draw that line between the joint responsibilities? It’s always a debate…like the one we’re having here. And there is no "right" answer. Only opinions. Bert
I kind of like the idea of an ink tattoo. NO PAIN. Now what do I want, or better still where do I want it? Maybe when the Elementers gather for a get together we should all go off and get matching tattoos! Maybe get Jodi to design a mural for us …. hmmm make a note Grant ….. tattoos and the Challenge.
My dad had a white grease to clean this stuff. He used this stuff to clean up his hands after working on his car engines. It worked fine. And, as a bonus, it smells good (as opposed to the stuff that came from the engine!)
Ray, are you sure it was white grease and not "shop soap" which kinda looks like white grease? I have both out in the garage. I use white grease for all kinds of things…my wife calls it "magic white grease" because I’m always saying, "I could fix that with some white grease." But I never used it as a cleaner. It’s a lubricant.
One thing I use it for is coating car battery terminals…prevents corrosion. Vaseline works for that too…as well as some other…oh well, never mind.
I believe you’re right, it must have been white soap. It was greasy like, and sometimes, it contained small grain of sands. It was a long time ago! I’m not a very good person with tools and engines, so I have very little need for this kind of product nowadays 😉
I had a terrible experience with refilling cartridges, Ray. First, I got ink all over everything. Then, the cartridges plugged up. Never again. I buy strictly OEM cartridges, even though they are damned expensive. A ripoff!!! As I have said in other threads, when a printer manufacturer comes along and provides a good quality printer and makes his cartridge design available to third-party suppliers, I will buy it in a flash. I’m sick of these guys "chipping" their cartridges and changing the design every five minutes so that no one can refill their cartridges or build a competing product for a reasonable price. I think it is clearly unfair competitive practices, far more egregious than anything Microsoft has ever done. I HATE to buy printers! Those guys are ripoff artists! Bert
Bert, I know what you mean. But when buying your next printer, look at what’s available on the 3rd party cartridge bin. You might find a model for which some 3rd party company is making cartridges, at a fraction of the retail price of the genuine one.
There are companies that will refill your own cartridge for you. Some local store do this in Montreal. They guarentee the same colors (they have several types of inks to match the various manufacturers standards). Have you considered this option?
There might also be types of cartridge that can be refilled more easily. If you search through the various forums on printers, you might find some are easier done than other.
I just helped a friend to buy his first printer. He wanted a certain model (I won’t name names here), but when he and I went to the cartridge counter, we figured the deal on the printer wasn’t such a deal. Based on his intended usage, he rethink his prefered choice and end up buying another brand (in my sense, a better one!) for which cartridge were cheaper, and came in seperate thank (instead of the multi-color ones).
Singificant reduction in the number of worm mails over the past days. There have been days I haven’t received any. Especially this weekend was very quiet; only one in two days.
Calm down, Bert; it’s not good for your blood pressure
LOL…Thanks, Beth. I do get kinda wound up sometimes, I guess. By the way, I saw a picture of you on the Challenge artist portraits. You didn’t tell me you were a movie star. Bert
ya, I just got 2 as well. Maybe whoever has the worm and has me in their address book turned their computer off yesterday which is why i didn’t get any yesterday ???
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