Right Monitor for Photoshop

AS
Posted By
Ann_Shelbourne
Mar 31, 2004
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1286
Replies
49
Status
Closed
Don’t worry about "Better-Halfs" — they get over it. My husband is still convinced that I deliberately kicked my G4 to death so that I could buy a G5. And we are still speakingΒ…Β…

MacBook Pro 16” Mockups πŸ”₯

– in 4 materials (clay versions included)

– 12 scenes

– 48 MacBook Pro 16″ mockups

– 6000 x 4500 px

GS
George_Stark
Apr 1, 2004
Well when I got home I dug out a couple of the old macs (I’ve been told to throw away many times) and the monitor displays the same awful purple so I’m saved! So I can save myself for another time heh.. Plus I don’t have to hassal a new vid card. Now I’ll see if I can use the old monitor for a second one,maybe I don’t need great color if I just keep the CS tools on it…. Well something to fool around with anyway. Again thanks all for the input.
George
DK
Doug_Katz
Apr 1, 2004
You DID deliberately kick your G4 to death… and WE’RE still speaking too.
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Apr 1, 2004
And, what is even better, you are still sending chocolates!
B
Buko
Apr 1, 2004
Hey I want chocolates too! B)
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Apr 1, 2004
Delivery of chocolates seems to available only in Jupiter.
DK
Doug_Katz
Apr 1, 2004
I send chocolates to Ann only.
B
Buko
Apr 1, 2004
Damn!
DK
Doug_Katz
Apr 1, 2004
I send them to you, Buko, but I know you’d say you knew I was gonna send them. And besides, I wouldn’t know which you to send them to.
P
progress
Apr 1, 2004
ah..i see how it works here now…;)
AS
Ann_Shelbourne
Apr 1, 2004
Delivery only works if you are in Jupiter.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Apr 1, 2004
There is only one monitor that is ‘right’ for Photoshop and that would be the HD 23" Apple Cinema Display. It’s already proven its mettle at the best pre-press shops in the U.S.
B
Buko
Apr 2, 2004
I still want to know about the Left Monitor
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Apr 2, 2004
Well Ken,

I surly hope you weren’t speaking about my shop.

I’m trying to replace a few LCD’s for CRT’s.

But the 22 CRT’s do work well with a 23 by its side.

green acres…..
VM
victor_maldonado
Apr 2, 2004
Hello, George πŸ™‚

I’m a bit of a low rent photoshop user .. that is I’m not proffesional and can’t afford the $1400.00 variety.

The LCD 17 inch Princeton VL1716, Dual input DVI and analog, SXGA 1280 x 1024 resolution, from Costco $399.00, is very impressive. I’m using it until my 22" Cinema Monitor comes back from Apple’s repair (the lamps went out). For the price you could buy two and use them side by side. I placed the 19 inch Princeton monitor next to the 17 inch and the 17 inch had the best image (all of the options were set to the same settings). The only down side is that it is made in China.

love & peace,
victor πŸ™‚
TL
Tim_Lookingbill
Apr 2, 2004
victor,

They’re all made in the far East somewhere. The 19" Princeton, is it a CRT?
VM
victor_maldonado
Apr 2, 2004
Hello, Tim πŸ™‚

They’re all made in the far East somewhere.

Yes, I know. We’re taking a political stance against China for their many human rights violations and as much as possible try to buy items made in the U.S.A. first, followed by whatever country next and last on our list is China, Indonesia, …

The 19" Princeton, is it a CRT?

No. It is a LCD that is a little larger but with the same pixel resolution. We placed both monitors side by side at Costco and made sure all of the settings were exactly the same. The 17 inch LCD monitor had by far the better image than the 19 inch LCD monitor made by the same company.

love & peace,
victor πŸ™‚
TL
Tim_Lookingbill
Apr 2, 2004
Where are you finding things made in the USA especially in electronics? I’m finding it harder and harder in my small town of Kerrville, TX to find anything made in the USA.

I can’t even find a wallet made here. They’re all from either China or India no matter what store I go to.
R
Ram
Apr 2, 2004
Tim,

Nowadays you can’t even get Fig Newtons made in the USA; they’re now officially Mexican food as production is moving 100% to Mexico.

A Japanese businessman complained to me recently that in Japan it’s becoming harder and harder to find items bearing traditional Japanese brand names that are actually manufactured in Japan. Everything in Japan seems to come from China and The Philippines.
VM
victor_maldonado
Apr 2, 2004
Hello, Tim πŸ™‚

Where are you finding things made in the USA especially in electronics?

I’m finding it harder and harder in my small town of Kerrville, TX to find anything made in the USA.

Good question. Same here. I think I spend more time reading labels at the stores than actually buying something. In Los Angeles we have a large port that brings goods from all over the globe so sometimes in rare cases we get something not made in China.

love & peace,
victor πŸ™‚
B
Buko
Apr 2, 2004
I can’t even find a wallet made here. They’re all from either China or India no matter what store I go to.

Nowadays you can’t even get Fig Newtons made in the USA; they’re now officially Mexican food as production is moving 100% to Mexico.

Good thing Dubbaya is creating all those new jobs
P
progress
Apr 2, 2004
"There is only one monitor that is ‘right’ for Photoshop and that would be the HD 23" Apple Cinema Display. It’s already proven its mettle at the best pre-press shops in the U.S."

the ones that dont need colour accurate monitors i guess…you would have to be blind to say LCD is any where as near as good as CRT.

wish i had taken mikes warning to heed as well…the latest range of lacie 22’s arent as good as their predecesors either…should have gone for the sony artisan.
IL
Ian_Lyons
Apr 2, 2004
the ones that dont need colour accurate monitors i guess…you would have to be blind to say LCD is any where as near as good as CRT.

In some respects LCD’s are superior to CRT’s and in others it’s the other way round. I use both and I don’t think statements such as yours are accurate or helpful! I likely get sh-one-t on for copy and pasting this into here, but I’m getting more and more p….d off with folk like you telling others that they’re either blind or stupid. The following is a response from Jeff Schewe to a query raised in another forum (my apologies to Jeff for taking this liberty):

Quote:__

Martin do you use a Cinema display on a regular basis or was this just on use at a studio/used for the video presentation?

Martin is still coming back from Australia (due back to the UK Mon I think) but I will tell you that he does indeed use a 23" Cinema on his main retouching Photoshop machine. I believe he also has a color profiled CRT on his scanning machine (which he seems to be using less as he is shooting a lot more digital these days).

Here’s my informed opinion regarding the LCD/CRT issue right now.

There are two valid approaches. The single best monitor for color, softproofing and accurate color screen display is the Artisan. Hands down it’s the best profile monitor for color. However, when running at 1600×1200 the resolution is "soft" because the monitor is pixel dithering to get the display output that high. The result is that everything on screen appears small and soft-including images. The luminosity is that of a CRT so it’s dimmer than an LCD.

The 23" Cinema (not the 22" or 17") is the single best current LCD display for retouching. Because the native resolution is 1920×1200 there is no pixel dither going on so the images on display is very sharp and very accurate. The ability to display via DVI a digital signal without the digital>analog conversion means that the pixel sharpness is unmatched by any other monitor. Also, it’s REALLY bright (which is both good and bad). However, the Cinema display is more difficult to accurately profile and since there’s no controls other than brightness you really have to profile the LCD in "native color and gamma". While a well made profile DOES do a very good job of giving Photoshop a good description of the monitor and therefore a good onscreen color match it’s simply NOT as accurate as the Artisan. Certain colors will be "off" and the brightness of the LCD (both good and bad) combine to make very accurate soft proofing difficult. Not impossible, but more difficult than the Artisan.

So. . .what’s more important to you in the long run? Accurate pixels (sharp) or accurate color?

The ideal-and one that both Greg Gorman and a few others are doing is running both an Artisan and a 23" Cinema. For color critical work, it’s on the Artisan (set up as the main system profile) for pixel accurate work it’s on the Cinema display (set to system). You can save out Photoshop Workspaces designed to move the palettes to the off monitor so it’s pretty easy to switch back and forth.

But, that’s NOT to say you can’t do color critical work on the Cinema nor to say you can’t do accurate retouching on the Artisan. For most people’s needs, one may be better than the other.

But no, Martin DOES use a 23" Cinema-it wasn’t just for the video. None of us tout stuff we don’t use in our daily work.
L
Lundberg02
Apr 3, 2004
Is there a Mac compatible TFT (active matrix) flat panel display? TFT is far superior to LCD. What technology does the Apple Cinema use?
a 19" TFT is only about 400 bucks on CNET but not sure it’s Mac worthy
P
progress
Apr 3, 2004
Ian, i realise my remarks were flippant…but their not meant to be destructive or insulting, more thought provoking…

think you may have just reiterated my point…for colour critical work CRT is still the way to go…yes LCD’s running on their native res they are sharper and preferable to CRT’s in terms of sharpness, but there is so much banter that is biased towards LCD’s as being the fullstop in monitor quality i feel it needs a good sharp stab to pull the debate back into terms…

so in short:

LCD good sharp, not colour accurate in comparison.

CRT good colour, not as sharp in comparison.

compare the two in terms of colour accuracy side by side when calibrated against any number of outputs and i still say you would have to have pretty poor colour perception to say the LCD is superior. Its horses for courses though, if your colour perception isn’t well tuned and honed, then perhaps your not dealing with the sort of work that demands a CRT.

for video work, well the jury is out, but really for that work you should have a video monitor and TV anyway hooked into the system…the computer monitor is just for working the app in.
IL
Ian_Lyons
Apr 3, 2004
TFT is far superior to LCD. What technology does the Apple Cinema use?

Details towards the bottom of the following page:

<http://www.apple.com/displays/acd23/>

The current 23" Apple Cinema Display uses the following panel by LG Philips:

< http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/en/product/monitor.html?tg=view &idx=124>

For what it is worth the 23" Sony uses the same panel. I can’t recall the other vendors using it, but it’s not exclusive to Apple and Sony. The following might help:

<http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/en/support/index.html#8>
GS
George_Stark
Apr 3, 2004
Since the experts are still communicating here .. heh I have a new question or two about my new monitor. As I mentioned I got a lacie" electron 19blue"
1. This monitor has super bright modes and I was curious if anyone uses them in evaluation of photoshop pixs.
2. I use Colorblind ProveIt to calibrate and profile a monitor and I’m assuming its best to adjust the RGB channels separately when calibrating vs the presets (color temp)? When adjusting RGB, the monitor won’t let you use the super bright modes during calibration so I was curious what was up with that.
So if any Lacie users have a tip or two I’d be glad to hear how you do it. Thanks
George
TL
Tim_Lookingbill
Apr 3, 2004
Since you’re using an outside measuring device, you can set the monitor to a state that matches your outside viewing environment in brightness and color temperature. A full screen white should look the same as a sheet of white paper printed on.

This is more of an ergonomic thing in respect to your eyes and how long you’re going to be able to work in whatever state chosen. The closer the monitor matches your outside lighting, the less your eyes will have to adjust. The puck will then measure what that state is and write it to your profile.

From my experience get as close to a white light environment as possible-no GE softwhite D34 living room lighting. No monitor or profiling equipment can calibrate successfully to that. I’ve tried it. It was a disaster when I edited color in this state.

Also, you don’t want the monitor to be too bright because it will overdrive the amplifiers reducing the life of your monitor over time, not to mention the heat that it will generate.

Most monitors have their amplifiers tuned to D65. On some monitors like mine when adjusting the RGB guns, especially reducing the blue, the corners tend to show a slightly green or red color cast. Yours may be different.
L
Lundberg02
Apr 3, 2004
Thanks, Ian. The last link to the LG.Philips page shows a page with Q&As this page has a "technology "link at the top which takes you to a graphic showing how the TFT produces a display.
I am currently looking at a BenQ TC099 15" TFT display for about 369. This is a professional model usually used for medical equipment and is not shown on the BenQ site, www.benq.com. It’s resolution is equivalent to 195 ppi, the viewing angle is almost 180 deg, and the color is brilliant. I am considering buying it as a replacement for a damaged laptop PC display.
CC
Conrad_Chavez
Apr 3, 2004
"Is there a Mac compatible TFT (active matrix) flat panel display? TFT is far superior to LCD"

I might be missing something here…isn’t a TFT just a type of LCD? My understanding is that practically every laptop screen and desktop LCD that’s been produced in the last few years is already an active-matrix TFT LCD, and that you’ll only find the older and slower passive-matrix LCD in lower-end devices like phones and some handhelds. If my take on this is correct, then the display technology isn’t going to matter as much as the display connector, of which the Mac can take VGA or DVI (with adapters).
L
Lundberg02
Apr 4, 2004
Yes, the TFT is a type of LCD, two layers of LCD with thin film transistors in between for control. Liquid plasma HDTV are also a form of LCD. I think all new laptops etc have TFT.
The Apple Cinema is a TFT and so is the Sony 23.

I was told by the dealer that I could plug the BenQ into a Mac with an adapter, but the display wouldn’t look right because of the gamma. I am guessing that it could be adjusted in the Mac without much problem. It certainly is an impressive display. It is not listed on the BenQ USA web site because it is not a consumer item. I believe I will buy it for the damaged PC laptop, it saves a lot of room, etc.
I am surprised at myself for not being more up on the latest and greatest.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Apr 4, 2004
Plasma displays WILL be a thing in the past in 2005.

The current LCD displays WILL be old technology.

The NEW LCD’s that are illuminated with color R_G_B diodes are much brighter, more stable and produce and overall consistency across the screen.

Basically don’t buy anything until next year because the current LCD florescent lighting is inadequate. AND, and, and for really fast motion redraw, the Plasma and LCD’s exhibit pixel tearing because they can refresh quick enough.

save your bucks for now.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Apr 4, 2004
An LDAR 70 inch over the fireplace would do nicely with the G5.

;o)
IL
Ian_Lyons
Apr 4, 2004
Michael,

The NEW LCD’s that are illuminated with color R_G_B diodes are much brighter, more stable and produce and overall consistency across the screen.

Hmm, you’re not meant to blab about such things πŸ˜‰
L
Lundberg02
Apr 5, 2004
I am aware of the 15 to 25 millisec refresh rate for LCDs, the brightness of this pro model BenQ is plenty good enough..
i am curious about the diode RGB technology, where is a site that describes it?
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Apr 5, 2004
It’s common knowledge that Sony is putting forth huge amounts of R and D into the new technology…….. and considering that the Mrs. works for Sony, I don’t have an NDA affiliated with what is said across the dinner table for either of us, nor do I fear God or anything else.

Hmm.., well maybe the IRS….and um……

other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about.
TL
Tim_Lookingbill
Apr 5, 2004
IMO, I don’t think it does any harm for MO to mention any new technology coming down the pike because it’s inevitable something has to be done on the current state of LCD’s as they are.

No one is going to put up with paying so much for a new device that goes down in quality compared to the old. I still can’t get over the clammy, shimmery, iridescent feel of LCD’s, even Apple’s.

I’m still waiting before I buy.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Apr 5, 2004
and if you actually have seen the pike, you’d have to pick up you jaw off the floor.

(not kidding)

The Zanker facility is like area 51……

hmm..

just enough to seed the mind, yet not enough to torch the house.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Apr 5, 2004
I’m blind and stupid? … that’s thought provoking.

I won’t tell you what thought.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Apr 5, 2004
Mike, I was thinking of your shop, first, because it is a first rate facility (Mike works there) and I like to see the use of the cinema displays in high-end work flow. Why? = Less ‘squinty’ operators. I also work with a pre-pre-press shop that has over 30 work stations, where half of the operators have CRT’s but the Cinema Displays are also being used more and more. From Layout work to image manipulation to soft-proofing to the client – where I work, all my CRT’s have been replaced over the last two years with Apple Cinema and Studio displays. We love ’em.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Apr 5, 2004
KEN,

As you’ve seen, Apple Cinema displays are all over my shop, but that wasn’t my choosing, nor do I think it is appropriate for a high end color facility to have them. I’m still working on having CRT’s next to all of our color stations.

They are nice for layout apps because of the real estate.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Apr 5, 2004
I trust you Mike. But, I’m keeping mine. You are closer to where the ink hits the paper so everybody should consider input from that point too.
P
progress
Apr 5, 2004
Ken, have u ever done a side by side comparison between LCD and say a good CRT…? If not, i suggest you do, because its very easy for the eye to get used to something and think its ok, but when a comparison is made its much easier to see the difference.

There’s loads of bad habits and setups in loads of shops all over the place…dont follow the herd unless you can tell when its heading for a cliff or not.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Apr 5, 2004
I can’t differentiate a tonal difference between a 1% and about 19% on an LCD.

I can’t differentiate a tonal difference between, oh lets say, 83% and a solid.

I can’t get neutral grays.

When I move my head back an forth, the monitor shifts gamma.

I can’t see any real high detail viewing blocks of LCD pixels.

Basically, the technology is not there yet for the work I do.

For making iDVD’s, I think it’s great.

For critical color, they suck as for my opinion above.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Apr 5, 2004
I can differentiate a tonal difference between a 1% and about 19% on an LCD.

I can differentiate a tonal difference between, oh lets say, 83% and a solid.

I can get neutral grays.

I don’t move my head back an forth, I leave it to the sales staff to see shifts in gamma.

I can see any real high detail viewing blocks of LCD pixels.

Basically, the technology is there for the work I do.

I do zero video work, but I’ll bet it’s a dream for that.

For commercial critical color I can nail it at my desk and get it back right on a Fuji.

Mike, We need to rent a building with a nice open room with nothing but two G5 workstations, take identical projects and complete them together with only one aim: to evaluate the credibility of these LCD’s as working tools, and grade our steps and results as 1 through 10. We all know the high-end CRT’s will do the job, but for me, I don’t’ want to sit in front of one again after 20 years. They’ve got gamma man, as in rays. I can see the variances in smaller degrees that you name above, in fact, I insist on that kind of performance, with the Apple displays. I am tired of CRT’s and I don’t want to have to work with one ever again if I can help it, and that’s where I am coming from.
MO
Mike_Ornellas
Apr 5, 2004
LCD’s are brighter, easier on the eyes, and are the future.

Where I sit, I’m not ready to buy the Kool-aid of LCD’s.

If it works for you, I’m glad.

I’ll take you up on the offer the next time you’re in town and well do a live job together.
KN
Ken_Nielsen
Apr 5, 2004
Thank’s Mike, You’re on.
AW
Allen_Wicks
Apr 7, 2004
I prefer the Kool-Aid of the better LCDs. Way less headache after 8-10 hours. And the variance in hard copy output among devices transcends those potential LCD vs. CRT differences in monitor output in my real world office surrounded with antique oak, colorful software documentation, past ads, scanner & printer hardware, off-white walls, carpet, varying outdoor lighting, etc.
T
Todie
Apr 7, 2004
…. varying outdoor lighting

Aaaargh! : )
L
Lundberg02
Apr 7, 2004
I apologize for pimping the BenQ 15" display. I was fooled by the show tunes the salesman was singing. It is a nice display, but I was subjected to some creative arithmetic concerning the resolution. It has the ordinary 1024 x 768 . I’m going to look at some 17" flat panels for about 340 on the web. i might even get a 17" CRT from the same guy for 80 bucks, in spite of the gaming I underwent.

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