where are you seeing the difference, in PS only?
what are your PS ColorSettings, exactly?
my guess is your settings are different, assuming your file is tagged and good…or the problem in in your calibrator.
both monitors hardware set to 6500?
I have only tried viewing in photoshop. (I am not at the studio right now so I can’t try any suggestions right now). The iView on the OSX machine can display using colorsync, but that wasnt built into the earlier version that’s on the OS9 machine. Is colorsync built into quicktime? I haven’t been able to turn anything up on that.
Color settings: my working space is Adobe RGB 1998, and I have everything below set to Preserve embedded profiles, and ask when pasting.
I have checked everything on both machines and everything is identical in PS and when calibrating/profiling in basICColor. I think the white point is set to 6300K. Any reason it ought to be 6500?
I am only about half-versed in this, which has turned out to be pretty dangerous. I have purchased Real World Color Management but it hasn’t come yet. Well, thanks for your help and let me know if you have any more questions.
Aaron
I don’t think there is any Apple made image viewing app that is color managed. I’ve never heard of iView, but if it’s Apple’s it doesn’t read profiles, not to my knowledge. I could be wrong.
D6300 is close enough and wouldn’t be creating the differences you see, anyway.
iView Media Pro is not color managed to my knowledge.
John Gnaegy said Apple’s PREVIEW and iPHOTO are colormanaged (with a nasty ColorSync bug) and honor embedded profiles on JPEG/TIFF, but I have never cared to spend time on them since I have Photoshop.
everything below set to Preserve embedded profiles, and ask when pasting.
That smells like your Photoshop’s backdoor is wide open for problems, but it’s hard to tell with the incomplete settings info you supplied…If you can test under US PREPRESS DEFAULTS (to get us on the same page), maybe I could add two cents.
NewRant 🙂 <
http://www.gballard.net/psd/honormybleepintag.html#backdoor>
What is the respective age of the two monitors? What white point luminance did you choose for each calibration? Have you checked in PS to make sure that the correct new monitor profile is being loaded and used – Color Settings>RGB Working Space>Monitor Color RGB?
Peter,
Doesn’t Photoshop get the monitor profile from:
OS9: Monitors> Color (highlighted profile)
OS10: System Preferences> Displays> Color (highlighted profile)
Are you recommending to use a custom monitor profile for Color Settings>RGB Working Space?
PS:
Okay, I got your point 🙂
So many posts. Let me try to address as many of these questions as I can without being at the computer in question.
First, we have photoshop set this way:
WORKING SPACES
RGB: Adobe RGB (1998)
CMYK: US Web coated (SWOP) v2
GRAY: Gamma 2.2
SPOT: dot gain 20%
COLOR MGMT
all: preserve embedded profiles
Profile mismatches I have turned off except when pasting because I have an action that converts the files from the camera profile into Adobe RGB before I start working on them. Generally speaking, we arent using files from all over the place, just the two digital backs in the studio. Also, if I leave these warnings on they keep interrupting my conversion action. I keep the pasting one on in case when I am compositing I mistakenly steal some pixels from an unconverted (to adobe RGB) file. This hasnt happened yet because I store them in different places, but still… I realize this leaves open the possibility of really mucking things up, but 90% of the time images are coming from one camera, and 10% of the time from the other camera. And the first thing I do is convert them anyway. Please speak up, g ballard, if you think this is sloppy.
CONVERSION OPTIONS
Adobe ACE
Rekative Colorimetric
yes black point comp.
yes dither
There, that’s it for the settings.
I am using the custom profile in colorsync, so that it is system-wide. This is where basICColor is putting it, and that jives with what I have always been told to do. It shouldnt be my working space, that doesn’t make sense. The working space is a larger, all-encompassing sort of color space that doesnt refer to any particular device. Or am I crazy? I dont want information tossed (by converting documents to a device-specific color space) simply because my monitor doesnt display them.
The monitors are relatively close in age. The 19′ is about 2 years old, the 22" about a year.
I knew Preview and iPhoto utilized profiles, but they have no OS9 equivalent. my previous post about iView was incorrect, it doesnt display in different color spaces. iView is an image database program we use (a la cumulus but better, I think) but the OS9 version does not recognize profiles at all. The OSX version recognizes the profiles and can embed or discard, but it doesnt display in different spaces.
I will be at the studio wednesday and I already have several avenues of attack here. Or at least things to double check. Thanks again for your help, and keep the questions and suggestions coming!
Aaron
aaronflacke,
I’m only trying to get us on the same page so’s I can hit the switch and offer an opinion.
US PREPRESS DEFAULTS and a GoodFile (download PDI Target) can do this:
<
http://www.gballard.net/nca.html#getagoodfile>
If the two monitors are not the same Ñ at US PREPRESS DEFAULT and PDI TARGET Ñ then something else (besides settings) is going on.
IMO, as Bruce writes in my link, "The Safest Starting Point…" is good advice.
I kind of know what’s going on, and I wouldn’t think of working out of Bruce’s workflow.
I wouldn’t think of working out of Bruce’s workflow.<
and I’m trying to make him rethink the thinking, but he keeps telling me that …….
BTW,
With Adobe ACE ColorManagementSystem set in Photoshop (as you noted) the ONLY place we need to set anything in ColorSync is OS 9:
ColorSync control panel> Profiles tab> Display (should note your custom monitor ICC profile).
With Adobe ACE ColorManagementSystem set in Photoshop, ColorSync is irrelevant (except as noted above). Right?
Color sync. still needs to be loaded and running so irrelevant it’s not.
The only part of color sync. that is functioning without a color sync. workflow is the monitor profile or display choice draw down.
I know, it’s confusing as hell…….
I like to think of CS being irrelevant to Photoshop when Adobe ACE is selected. It makes it easier (for me) to wrap my pea brain around…
Adobe ACE is doing the math — and that’s what counts — right?
Yep.
With a color sync. workflow, your choices are 3rd party stuff like Kodak, Heidelberg and Apple. Adobe’s color engine is the bomb along with Adobe’s BPC math.
G, us users are all pea brained really in the scheme of things. It’s just that our peas a slightly bigger then the average size.
;o)
We all know a lot about a specific something. Together we create a conscious thought.
I’m still trying to get the powers that be to really evaluate real world issues as to create real progress and change.
As far as those powers that think color mgmt. is a done deal as far as implementation, I have just as many arguments and PROOF that it’s far from perfect because people are far from perfect.
gary, et al
after rechecking all the settings on both machines, I found that the OS9 mac (this may have something to do with rebuilding the desktop) had reverted to a profile from ’02. recalibrated, reprofiled, made sure the new profile was in the right place and voila, much closer match. The density and contrast levels match quite closely. thanks for the target. That helped me identify the remaining problems, which are pretty minor.
The big monitor has a definite pinkish cast in the midtones, and the 19" has a greenish-blue cast in the quarter-tones, and a yellow cast in the midtones.
I wonder, what is the advisability of tinkering with the curves in the profiles to remove these color casts? I am thinking that the relative ages of the two monitors might keep me from getting closer otherwise. At this point with the density and contrast levels a match, that is really the only problem. One of the other photogs here suggested tinkering with the color temp in the monitor controls and reprofiling, but I dont like that idea as it seems like a broad-brush approach to a very specific color issue.
Thanks all of you for your help and suggestions. just a little more, please!
Aaron
The big monitor has a definite pinkish cast in the midtones, and the
19" has a greenish-blue cast in the quarter-tones, and a yellow cast in the midtones.
That would lead my lay logic to the quality/shape of the monitors, and the profile software/hardware.
May want to do a hardware Reset on the monitors, reset to 6500.
Then go into the RGB guns (if supported),
Then reprofile.
At that point, I would replace either the monitor or puck or cables, if needed…
The guns are balanced as part of the basICColor calibration, and even thought they cannot be adjusted on the 19", they were very close to being balanced. the color casts I am seeing are only in certain densities, not overall (looking at the gray swatches on the various color checkers) so I think this is a fault in the curve that basICColor is generating.
I will do a hardware reset on Friday when I get back in the studio and reprofile. The color casts are so subtle I am tempted to just leave it as is, and be cognizant of those tendencies when I am color correcting. Not exactly the best way to handle it but I dont think that replacing either monitor is going to happen.
Gary, I cant thank you enough for your help. And there is a whole lot of stuff on your site that I will be reading soon. I will let you know if and when I whip these two LaCie’s into line.
Aaron
If your mentioned color casts are in reference to the PDI target image, I get the same thing using Apple’s calibrator and SuperCal if I choose different phosphor settings in combination with WP. It’s subtle, though, as you’ve indicated.
AppleCal on my OS 9 pismo powerbook system will not let me choose phosphors. It derives this from the EDID info from my monitor as well as the native WP. Fleshtones under the AdobeRGB tagged target file showup on the pinkish side because my native WP is D90-.28x/.31y. The farther toward D50 from native I remake the profiles, the more yellow and a little cyan appear in these fleshtones. The GretagMacbeth red starts to desaturate as well. However when I choose with the sliders anything other than native WP in AppleCal the screen turns slightly pink from the comparitive blue green cast of native.
I found a phosphor/ WP combo in SuperCal based on an iiyama monitor (slightly close to Colormatch) which shows more accurately to CMYK readouts in the RGB preview when converting to many Adobe and Colormatch based press profiles.
I don’t know how those fleshtones are suppose to look. Does the baby on the far bottom right suppose to be orangish or pinkish? The CmYK readouts are around 5-10%cyan, 35%magenta, 35%yellow. That’s orangish to me. Is the red in the Gretag chart suppose to be glowing or natural looking?
What is this target suppose to look like under AdobeRGB?
–>s it possible that the way OS9 and PS 6 handles color is different enough from OSX and PS7 to account for this difference?
Nope, if the profiles are good and used properly, the two should be "reasonably" close. Now you do need to insure that the two are set for the same luminance meaning you need to find the display that is the "weaker" of the two and set the stronger to match that unit (since it’s not possible to go the other direction of course).
Setting the guns would be quite useful of course (getting the two as "physically close" as possible is quite useful). But to answer your question, if the profiles are properly being made and used, the two images should look reasonably close.
aaronflacke,
If you’re pulling hairs out over a little wobble in a stepped gray bar(?) — I think that’s part of the beast (expected). My 22 LaCie is not neutral across and I doubt if any monitor can do it (for more than an hour or so).
I read somewhere to target a 85-95 luminance (brightness)…when you balance the RGB for graphics, the puck/RGB routine should give you a luminance #, too high turn the RGB down.
+++++
BTW, you’re welcome!
All these guys (and girls) slugged these issues out (patiently) with me, I’m just passing their good work along to you 🙂
