New Logo Design-HELP!!!

TH
Posted By
T Hanson
Jul 21, 2003
Views
6624
Replies
106
Status
Closed
Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a start up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your signature will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other business.

Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the right track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.

We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple for reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.

We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"

Send samples to:

Thanks

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B
BFM
Jul 21, 2003
Ok, this is getting ridiculous.

Maybe it’s time to fill in some of the "potential clients" as to what is exactly involved in creating a logo.

It can take anywhere from a couple hours (2,3 hrs) to many hours (40+), to come up with a design for a logo. Having logo designed professionally involves a wide variety of considerations:

– what is the logo for (industry, etc.)?
– what type of media applications is it needed for (stationary, internet, packaging, etc.)?
– where is the logo used (cultural considerations, demographic/target audience)?
– is one logo right for all applications? will it need to be modified somewhat for different uses?
– etc.

If the logo consists of all original art, it is subject to copyright, and in that case, is also subject to due royalties and revenues where the logo is used as marketing on products, etc. OR anywhere that the company is receiving profit through the use of the logo.

It’s beginning to tick me off a little bit at what little regard some companies’ have towards the work involved in creating/designing, a professional logo/graphic-identity/brand etc.

Then again, you get what you pay for.

Ryan

"T Hanson" wrote in message
Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a
start
up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your
signature
will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the right track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple for reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

EG
Eric Gill
Jul 21, 2003
"T Hanson" wrote in
news:buVSa.93391$:

Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a start up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen.

Hope all you like, then throw away the "Be An Entrepreneur in Ten Minutes or Less" book. You paid far too much for the very bad advice of trying to get professional results from desperate beginners.

FYI, I charge a minimum of ten times that – as a favor, if I’ve got a lull in business, and if no "corrections" get made.

What someone like the Chris Hill Agency (we’re all in Houston, BTW) would charge you don’t want to know.

<snip>
AB
Adam Berry
Jul 21, 2003
Personally, I feel these guys are overreacting and in some cases think they are being quite poncey about the whole thing.

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any budget but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes. As long as they aren’t thinking too much about every minor detail about it (that u mentioned in your post). With a budget like that, the chances are, everything u mentioned is irrelevant.

All he wants is a logo. I worked for a company that was producing a brochure for a client. An external company they used as a partner supplied their logo to be put on the brochure. It was awful and actually turned out the managing director had knocked it up in Paint. Believe me it was awful. We even offered to make something up free of charge cos no matter what we did, it was going to be a big improvement. He declined. But the fact was, we could have done better in five minutes.

If you don’t want to help the guy out, fine. but don’t be so arsey about it.

T Hanson, I’m not going to put any effort into it, but if an idea pops in my head I’ll artwork it up and let u see it.

Regards
Adam

"T Hanson" wrote in message
Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a
start
up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your
signature
will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the right track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple for reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

B
BFM
Jul 21, 2003
Adam:

I’d like to know the designers that knock up a "half-decent" logo in 10 mins. I can sketch stuff out on paper in probably that time, but that’s about it, and it’s no where near done. Is he going to pay me $100 for a sketch on paper?

I’m also trying to figure out in my head how many $100 logo’s would cover a university degree, and 5+ years experience.

Let’s equate this to working in an architectural office. Some guy walks in, says he’s got $100, and he just wants a basic floor plan, that’s it. No fixture placement, no dimensions, no notes on material, nothing. Well, my first guess is he would be laughed out of the office, but if someone did take the job, they would sketch it out on a used napkin, and demand the entire $100. Not once, in my 5+ years now of working in the architectural industry, has someone pulled something like that. Why? Because they would be laughed out of the office. There is a fixed (base) fee, and the guy wanting the sketch would get what he paid for. He would end up paying $100 in clerical fees before the Architect even touched the napkin with a pencil.

If I take this argument further, what you’re saying (basically) is, the skills of a graphic-artist are less viable and useful then those of an architect? In certain instances you’re right (knowledge of codes, design parameters, etc.), and then again, I look at companies like Nike, Cingular Wireless, etc. and the viability argument fails.

Just curious, Adam, are you still living at home? How many $100 logo’s do you think it would take to pay rent, business costs, etc.? When you attended college, did they let you know that $100 knock-offs for logo’s was a good deal? Did you attend college? I’m sure the guys who have created material for Nike, for instance, would have done their work for $5.00/hr. I mean, hey, it’s only graphic-design.

And what does "poncey" mean? Is that British slang?

"Adam Berry" wrote in message
Personally, I feel these guys are overreacting and in some cases think
they
are being quite poncey about the whole thing.

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any budget but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes. As long as they aren’t thinking too much about every minor detail about it (that u
mentioned
in your post). With a budget like that, the chances are, everything u mentioned is irrelevant.

All he wants is a logo. I worked for a company that was producing a
brochure
for a client. An external company they used as a partner supplied their
logo
to be put on the brochure. It was awful and actually turned out the
managing
director had knocked it up in Paint. Believe me it was awful. We even offered to make something up free of charge cos no matter what we did, it was going to be a big improvement. He declined. But the fact was, we could have done better in five minutes.

If you don’t want to help the guy out, fine. but don’t be so arsey about
it.
T Hanson, I’m not going to put any effort into it, but if an idea pops in
my
head I’ll artwork it up and let u see it.

Regards
Adam

"T Hanson" wrote in message
Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a
start
up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your
signature
will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the right track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple
for
reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

B
BA
Jul 21, 2003
Eric Gill wrote

FYI, I charge a minimum of ten times that – as a favor, if I’ve got a lull in business, and if no "corrections" get made.
What someone like the Chris Hill Agency (we’re all in Houston, BTW) would charge you don’t want to know.
————————
That’s why the bums beg for freebies here.

BA
B
BA
Jul 21, 2003
Adam Berry wrote

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any budget but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes.
————————-
In those most cases, do they all actually get the $100? I can’t help suspecting that enough of them don’t, to raise a question.

BA
S
Stephan
Jul 22, 2003
"BFM" wrote in message
Adam:

I’d like to know the designers that knock up a "half-decent" logo in 10 mins. I can sketch stuff out on paper in probably that time, but that’s about it, and it’s no where near done. Is he going to pay me $100 for a sketch on paper?

I’m also trying to figure out in my head how many $100 logo’s would cover
a
university degree, and 5+ years experience.

Let’s equate this to working in an architectural office. Some guy walks
in,
says he’s got $100, and he just wants a basic floor plan, that’s it. No fixture placement, no dimensions, no notes on material, nothing. Well, my first guess is he would be laughed out of the office, but if someone did take the job, they would sketch it out on a used napkin, and demand the entire $100. Not once, in my 5+ years now of working in the architectural industry, has someone pulled something like that. Why? Because they
would
be laughed out of the office. There is a fixed (base) fee, and the guy wanting the sketch would get what he paid for. He would end up paying
$100
in clerical fees before the Architect even touched the napkin with a
pencil.
If I take this argument further, what you’re saying (basically) is, the skills of a graphic-artist are less viable and useful then those of an architect? In certain instances you’re right (knowledge of codes, design parameters, etc.), and then again, I look at companies like Nike, Cingular Wireless, etc. and the viability argument fails.

Just curious, Adam, are you still living at home? How many $100 logo’s do you think it would take to pay rent, business costs, etc.? When you attended college, did they let you know that $100 knock-offs for logo’s
was
a good deal? Did you attend college? I’m sure the guys who have created material for Nike, for instance, would have done their work for $5.00/hr.
I
mean, hey, it’s only graphic-design.

And what does "poncey" mean? Is that British slang?

I agree with you in general but Nike was a bad example. Here is why:
"THE SWOOSH

The SWOOSH logo is a graphic design created by Caroline Davidson in 1971. It represents the wing of the Greek goddess NIKE.

Caroline Davidson was a student at Portland State University interested in advertising. She met Phil Knight while he was teaching accounting classes and she started doing some freelance work for his company.

Phil Knight asked Caroline to design a logo that could be placed on the side of a shoe. She handed him the SWOOSH, he handed her $35.

In spring of 1972, the first shoe with the NIKE SWOOSH was introduced . the rest is history"

Stephan
B
ben-dover
Jul 22, 2003
actually it only took about 15 minutes.
"Adam Berry" wrote in message
Personally, I feel these guys are overreacting and in some cases think
they
are being quite poncey about the whole thing.

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any budget but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes. As long as they aren’t thinking too much about every minor detail about it (that u
mentioned
in your post). With a budget like that, the chances are, everything u mentioned is irrelevant.

All he wants is a logo. I worked for a company that was producing a
brochure
for a client. An external company they used as a partner supplied their
logo
to be put on the brochure. It was awful and actually turned out the
managing
director had knocked it up in Paint. Believe me it was awful. We even offered to make something up free of charge cos no matter what we did, it was going to be a big improvement. He declined. But the fact was, we could have done better in five minutes.

If you don’t want to help the guy out, fine. but don’t be so arsey about
it.
T Hanson, I’m not going to put any effort into it, but if an idea pops in
my
head I’ll artwork it up and let u see it.

Regards
Adam

"T Hanson" wrote in message
Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a
start
up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your
signature
will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the right track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple
for
reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

B
ben-dover
Jul 22, 2003
sorry guys its just that im not working and could use some new ink cartridges so the $100.00 would come in handy.
"BA" wrote in message
Adam Berry wrote

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any
budget
but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes.
————————-
In those most cases, do they all actually get the $100? I can’t help suspecting that enough of them don’t, to raise a question.
BA

LS
Lon Stowell
Jul 22, 2003
BA wrote:

Eric Gill wrote

FYI, I charge a minimum of ten times that – as a favor, if I’ve got a lull in business, and if no "corrections" get made.
What someone like the Chris Hill Agency (we’re all in Houston, BTW) would charge you don’t want to know.
————————
That’s why the bums beg for freebies here.

BA
It kinda depends on the size of the business and the plans for growth of the business. Not every mom and pop operation can afford a hoity toity supercallifragilistic commercial grade graphic artist. And an intern might consider $100 good stuff whether or not it includes learning all the other trivia about logos and trademarks.

On the other hand, if they are planning to rip off a poor artist in order to go public next year, !!@#$!@$ ’em.
B
BFM
Jul 22, 2003
True, Stephan. I should have clarified. I was talking about creating both logo/branding, and general graphic-design work for the company’s I mentioned. The Nike logo was a bad example. Although, in 1971 terms, $35.00 was two – almost three – days wages (minimum wage), and this done by a college student.

I wonder how many people knew/know about that Nike swoosh. One thing I’ve always wondered is if, Caroline, ever received royalties for her design? I read on a newsgroup once that she made a few pennies for each product sale. Do you know if that’s true?

Ryan

"Stephan" wrote in message
"BFM" wrote in message
Adam:

I’d like to know the designers that knock up a "half-decent" logo in 10 mins. I can sketch stuff out on paper in probably that time, but that’s about it, and it’s no where near done. Is he going to pay me $100 for a sketch on paper?

I’m also trying to figure out in my head how many $100 logo’s would
cover
a
university degree, and 5+ years experience.

Let’s equate this to working in an architectural office. Some guy walks
in,
says he’s got $100, and he just wants a basic floor plan, that’s it. No fixture placement, no dimensions, no notes on material, nothing. Well,
my
first guess is he would be laughed out of the office, but if someone did take the job, they would sketch it out on a used napkin, and demand the entire $100. Not once, in my 5+ years now of working in the
architectural
industry, has someone pulled something like that. Why? Because they
would
be laughed out of the office. There is a fixed (base) fee, and the guy wanting the sketch would get what he paid for. He would end up paying
$100
in clerical fees before the Architect even touched the napkin with a
pencil.
If I take this argument further, what you’re saying (basically) is, the skills of a graphic-artist are less viable and useful then those of an architect? In certain instances you’re right (knowledge of codes,
design
parameters, etc.), and then again, I look at companies like Nike,
Cingular
Wireless, etc. and the viability argument fails.

Just curious, Adam, are you still living at home? How many $100 logo’s
do
you think it would take to pay rent, business costs, etc.? When you attended college, did they let you know that $100 knock-offs for logo’s
was
a good deal? Did you attend college? I’m sure the guys who have
created
material for Nike, for instance, would have done their work for
$5.00/hr.
I
mean, hey, it’s only graphic-design.

And what does "poncey" mean? Is that British slang?

I agree with you in general but Nike was a bad example. Here is why:
"THE SWOOSH

The SWOOSH logo is a graphic design created by Caroline Davidson in 1971.
It
represents the wing of the Greek goddess NIKE.

Caroline Davidson was a student at Portland State University interested in advertising. She met Phil Knight while he was teaching accounting classes and she started doing some freelance work for his company.
Phil Knight asked Caroline to design a logo that could be placed on the
side
of a shoe. She handed him the SWOOSH, he handed her $35.
In spring of 1972, the first shoe with the NIKE SWOOSH was introduced .
the
rest is history"

Stephan

D
Dan
Jul 22, 2003
Caroline later received a chunk of Nike stock and has made out very well.

Dan
http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

"BFM" wrote in message
True, Stephan. I should have clarified. I was talking about creating
both
logo/branding, and general graphic-design work for the company’s I mentioned. The Nike logo was a bad example. Although, in 1971 terms, $35.00 was two – almost three – days wages (minimum wage), and this done
by
a college student.

I wonder how many people knew/know about that Nike swoosh. One thing I’ve always wondered is if, Caroline, ever received royalties for her design?
I
read on a newsgroup once that she made a few pennies for each product
sale.
Do you know if that’s true?

Ryan

"Stephan" wrote in message
"BFM" wrote in message
Adam:

I’d like to know the designers that knock up a "half-decent" logo in
10
mins. I can sketch stuff out on paper in probably that time, but
that’s
about it, and it’s no where near done. Is he going to pay me $100 for
a
sketch on paper?

I’m also trying to figure out in my head how many $100 logo’s would
cover
a
university degree, and 5+ years experience.

Let’s equate this to working in an architectural office. Some guy
walks
in,
says he’s got $100, and he just wants a basic floor plan, that’s it.
No
fixture placement, no dimensions, no notes on material, nothing.
Well,
my
first guess is he would be laughed out of the office, but if someone
did
take the job, they would sketch it out on a used napkin, and demand
the
entire $100. Not once, in my 5+ years now of working in the
architectural
industry, has someone pulled something like that. Why? Because they
would
be laughed out of the office. There is a fixed (base) fee, and the
guy
wanting the sketch would get what he paid for. He would end up paying
$100
in clerical fees before the Architect even touched the napkin with a
pencil.
If I take this argument further, what you’re saying (basically) is,
the
skills of a graphic-artist are less viable and useful then those of an architect? In certain instances you’re right (knowledge of codes,
design
parameters, etc.), and then again, I look at companies like Nike,
Cingular
Wireless, etc. and the viability argument fails.

Just curious, Adam, are you still living at home? How many $100
logo’s
do
you think it would take to pay rent, business costs, etc.? When you attended college, did they let you know that $100 knock-offs for
logo’s
was
a good deal? Did you attend college? I’m sure the guys who have
created
material for Nike, for instance, would have done their work for
$5.00/hr.
I
mean, hey, it’s only graphic-design.

And what does "poncey" mean? Is that British slang?

I agree with you in general but Nike was a bad example. Here is why:
"THE SWOOSH

The SWOOSH logo is a graphic design created by Caroline Davidson in
1971.
It
represents the wing of the Greek goddess NIKE.

Caroline Davidson was a student at Portland State University interested
in
advertising. She met Phil Knight while he was teaching accounting
classes
and she started doing some freelance work for his company.
Phil Knight asked Caroline to design a logo that could be placed on the
side
of a shoe. She handed him the SWOOSH, he handed her $35.
In spring of 1972, the first shoe with the NIKE SWOOSH was introduced .
the
rest is history"

Stephan

NS
n8 skow
Jul 22, 2003
….and it probably ‘looks’ like a 15 minute logo…

n8

actually it only took about 15 minutes.

Personally, I feel these guys are overreacting and in some cases think
they
are being quite poncey about the whole thing.

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any
budget
but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes. As long as they aren’t thinking too much about every minor detail about it (that u
mentioned
in your post). With a budget like that, the chances are, everything u mentioned is irrelevant.

All he wants is a logo. I worked for a company that was producing a
brochure
for a client. An external company they used as a partner supplied their
logo
to be put on the brochure. It was awful and actually turned out the
managing
director had knocked it up in Paint. Believe me it was awful. We even offered to make something up free of charge cos no matter what we did,
it
was going to be a big improvement. He declined. But the fact was, we
could
have done better in five minutes.

If you don’t want to help the guy out, fine. but don’t be so arsey about
it.
T Hanson, I’m not going to put any effort into it, but if an idea pops
in
my
head I’ll artwork it up and let u see it.

Regards
Adam

"T Hanson" wrote in message
Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a
start
up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your
signature
will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other
business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the
right
track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple
for
reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

N
none
Jul 22, 2003
In article <dW3Ta.482135$>, "BFM"
wrote:

Gary, I agree… and I agree again… and again… and again…
And about the Picasso thing, he didn’t even need to take a dump, all he did is sign pieces of paper and people would give him things for free.

came across a picasso font one day…supposedly it’s his handwriting – beautiful stuff too!
B
ben-dover
Jul 22, 2003
well what do you expect for $100.00 ?
"n8 skow" wrote in message
…and it probably ‘looks’ like a 15 minute logo…

n8

actually it only took about 15 minutes.

Personally, I feel these guys are overreacting and in some cases think
they
are being quite poncey about the whole thing.

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any
budget
but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes. As long as
they
aren’t thinking too much about every minor detail about it (that u
mentioned
in your post). With a budget like that, the chances are, everything u mentioned is irrelevant.

All he wants is a logo. I worked for a company that was producing a
brochure
for a client. An external company they used as a partner supplied
their
logo
to be put on the brochure. It was awful and actually turned out the
managing
director had knocked it up in Paint. Believe me it was awful. We even offered to make something up free of charge cos no matter what we did,
it
was going to be a big improvement. He declined. But the fact was, we
could
have done better in five minutes.

If you don’t want to help the guy out, fine. but don’t be so arsey
about
it.
T Hanson, I’m not going to put any effort into it, but if an idea pops
in
my
head I’ll artwork it up and let u see it.

Regards
Adam

"T Hanson" wrote in message
Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for
a
start
up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your
signature
will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other
business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the
right
track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching,
simple
for
reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

GD
Gary Dickson
Jul 22, 2003
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$, "ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes.

Yup, I can pretty much whip out a commercial grade logo in 10 minutes! Can’t everyone here? I am a design GOD! I kid you not — one of my clients even told me so once — I AM A DESIGN GOD. OK maybe not THE design God but at least A design god. So I’m guessing that there at least a few other design gods that hang out in this newsgroup — come on folks fess up. I know your out there. I am… Well… unless of course you count the 10 – 50 hrs researching the company/industry/logo, thinking and sketching several dozen thumbnails — I guess if you take that into consideration I’d be what maybe a design wizard? But surely there are some design gods out there — come on identify yourselves!!!

Seriously though — who would want a logo that’s been worked on for less than 10 hours? Maybe I’m retarded or maybe I am too critical of my own work. I’m retarded, I know I must be retarded. This talk about banging out a logo in an hour or whatever is IMO ludicrous and insulting. Picasso probably could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for thousands but could he have lived with himself and what would that have done for his reputation in the long run? We all do stupid stuff like this when we are starting out or maybe even occasionally when we’re desperate — but my experience with such has always been really negative — often sparking nightmares for months or years to come. Anybody else out there experience similar?

Sorry, I’ve had a bad day.

Gary D.
B
BFM
Jul 22, 2003
Gary, I agree… and I agree again… and again… and again…

And about the Picasso thing, he didn’t even need to take a dump, all he did is sign pieces of paper and people would give him things for free.

Ryan

"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$, "ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes.

Yup, I can pretty much whip out a commercial grade logo in 10 minutes!
Can’t
everyone here? I am a design GOD! I kid you not — one of my clients even told me so once — I AM A DESIGN GOD. OK maybe not THE design God but at least A design god. So I’m guessing that there at least a few other design gods that hang out in this newsgroup — come on folks fess up. I know your out there. I am… Well… unless of course you count the 10 – 50 hrs researching the company/industry/logo, thinking and sketching several
dozen
thumbnails — I guess if you take that into consideration I’d be what
maybe
a design wizard? But surely there are some design gods out there — come
on
identify yourselves!!!

Seriously though — who would want a logo that’s been worked on for less than 10 hours? Maybe I’m retarded or maybe I am too critical of my own
work.
I’m retarded, I know I must be retarded. This talk about banging out a
logo
in an hour or whatever is IMO ludicrous and insulting. Picasso probably could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for thousands but could he have lived with himself and what would that have done for his reputation in the long run? We all do stupid stuff like this when we are starting out or maybe even occasionally when we’re desperate — but my experience with such has always been really negative — often sparking nightmares for months or years to come. Anybody else out there experience similar?

Sorry, I’ve had a bad day.

Gary D.
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 22, 2003
"n8 skow" wrote in message
…and it probably ‘looks’ like a 15 minute logo…

I know something that only takes 4 minutes and pleases everybody.

GaryPeach
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 22, 2003
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$, "ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

Picasso probably
could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for thousands but could he have lived with himself and what would that have done for his reputation in the long run?

What’s all the fuss about him he couldn’t draw, had no idea of perspective and couldn’t get the proportions of the body right, he was a poor craftsman.

GaryPeach
B
BFM
Jul 22, 2003
I remember sitting in my Arts History class in University and thinking the same things as you, but I was proved wrong.

Picasso, was an incredibly gifted painter. His work was compared to some of the Baroque-Period masters (e.g. Titian, Bellini, Caravaggio, etc.). We always compare Picasso’s works with distorted forms and shapes, but that style of painting didn’t come along till later in his life.

When Picasso was a young painter he decided that he wanted to do something ‘unique’. A current style/genre that had been forming in Europe was called ‘Modernism’, so he started experimenting with the pre-emanate genre of the time. He came up with what he called ‘cubism’. It pretty much went on from there.

To say that he couldn’t draw, had no idea of perspective, and was not proportionate, is inaccurate.

Here’s a site with a history and examples of his early work, and later modernist paintings:
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/

Ryan

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$, "ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

Picasso probably
could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for thousands
but
could he have lived with himself and what would that have done for his reputation in the long run?

What’s all the fuss about him he couldn’t draw, had no idea of perspective and couldn’t get the proportions of the body right, he was a poor
craftsman.
GaryPeach

GP
Gary Peach
Jul 22, 2003
"BFM" wrote in message
I remember sitting in my Arts History class in University and thinking the same things as you, but I was proved wrong.

I’m here for edification and education, please enlighten me; perhaps I have been guilty of maligning the man when he is not able to defend himself.

Picasso, was an incredibly gifted painter. His work was compared to some
of
the Baroque-Period masters (e.g. Titian, Bellini, Caravaggio, etc.).

By whom, did she put her white stick down to examine the works?

We
always compare Picasso’s works with distorted forms and shapes, but that style of painting didn’t come along till later in his life.

To conceal his poor craftsmanship,
on the art front he pulled off the biggest con job going.

When Picasso was a young painter he decided that he wanted to do something ‘unique’.

Don’t we all, then the realities of life rush in upon us.

A current style/genre that had been forming in Europe was called ‘Modernism’, so he started experimenting with the pre-emanate genre of the time. He came up with what he called ‘cubism’.

I suppose that makes his clients complete three dimensional squares. 🙂

It pretty much went on from there.

Dali had similar ideas of artistic freedom, he learned to draw and paint properly before he engaged in his aims. At least with Dali you know that when you are looking at something that is what he intended. With Picasso the brush might have slipped.
As far as I can see, Picasso’s merit is the fact that as a Communist he survived WWII in a Fascist regime. For that I admire him, for his political statements in the face of danger, I admire him when I consider what it may have cost him. But as a craftsman I have seen no evidence of his ability.

To say that he couldn’t draw, had no idea of perspective, and was not proportionate, is inaccurate.

I have been messing around with some of his images that are supposed to be representational, in particular "The Artist and his Model (1914)" Neither the artist or the model are proportionate, in fact I would say that she is positively grotesque; for starters her legs are far too short compared to the body length. Closer examination reveals that no care at all has been taken in setting out the proportions of either figure.

Here’s a site with a history and examples of his early work, and later modernist paintings:
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/

Thank you When I have a moment I’ll visit this site.

Gary Peach

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$,
"ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

Picasso probably
could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for thousands
but
could he have lived with himself and what would that have done for his reputation in the long run?

What’s all the fuss about him he couldn’t draw, had no idea of
perspective
and couldn’t get the proportions of the body right, he was a poor
craftsman.
GaryPeach

DN
David Nicholson
Jul 22, 2003
It usually takes the bartender at my corner bar 4 min to change the keg… I wonder?

"Hunter Elliott" wrote in message
"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"n8 skow" wrote in message
…and it probably ‘looks’ like a 15 minute logo…

I know something that only takes 4 minutes and pleases everybody.

2.5 minutes, Gary…. microwave popcorn! 🙂

HE
Hunter Elliott
Jul 22, 2003
"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"n8 skow" wrote in message
…and it probably ‘looks’ like a 15 minute logo…

I know something that only takes 4 minutes and pleases everybody.

2.5 minutes, Gary…. microwave popcorn! 🙂
T
Thomas Myers
Jul 22, 2003
Picasso started off by trading art for lunch. Eeryone needs to start somewhere.

T

"BFM" wrote in message
Gary, I agree… and I agree again… and again… and again…
And about the Picasso thing, he didn’t even need to take a dump, all he
did
is sign pieces of paper and people would give him things for free.
Ryan

"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$, "ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes.

Yup, I can pretty much whip out a commercial grade logo in 10 minutes!
Can’t
everyone here? I am a design GOD! I kid you not — one of my clients
even
told me so once — I AM A DESIGN GOD. OK maybe not THE design God but at least A design god. So I’m guessing that there at least a few other
design
gods that hang out in this newsgroup — come on folks fess up. I know
your
out there. I am… Well… unless of course you count the 10 – 50 hrs researching the company/industry/logo, thinking and sketching several
dozen
thumbnails — I guess if you take that into consideration I’d be what
maybe
a design wizard? But surely there are some design gods out there — come
on
identify yourselves!!!

Seriously though — who would want a logo that’s been worked on for less than 10 hours? Maybe I’m retarded or maybe I am too critical of my own
work.
I’m retarded, I know I must be retarded. This talk about banging out a
logo
in an hour or whatever is IMO ludicrous and insulting. Picasso probably could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for thousands
but
could he have lived with himself and what would that have done for his reputation in the long run? We all do stupid stuff like this when we are starting out or maybe even occasionally when we’re desperate — but my experience with such has always been really negative — often sparking nightmares for months or years to come. Anybody else out there
experience
similar?

Sorry, I’ve had a bad day.

Gary D.

K
Kingdom
Jul 22, 2003
Hey guys I got to laugh at you all, bitchin about this deal. The global going rate for a logo is 300 dollars. So the guy is lookin for a bargin but he could have posted it here

http://www.elance.com/c/cats/main/categories.pl?catId=10231& amp;type=buyer

Remember your going to be dealing with global prices. In the UK Big companies are out-sourcing to India and the far east, British Telecom for example, where they pay a sixth or less in wage bills. You can pitch big prices to locals that haven’t yet grasped the global market system but that’s all changing fast.

There are no problems only situations

============================================================ ============= Walrus Home alt.binaries.pictures.walpaper <=vote here every weekend. weekly entries posted on
http://web.newsguy.com/evilsideshowbob/entries.html
FAQ found at http://members.rogers.com/heretic54/
(The most up to date version is posted in alt.binaries.pictures.walpaper on Mondays and Thursdays. PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING)
Walrus websites: http://web.newsguy.com/evilsideshowbob/ For Contest Archives & Artists http://www.weeklywalrus.com ============================================================ =============
K
Kingdom
Jul 22, 2003
"Dan" wrote in news:pR2Ta.66443$0v4.4462545
@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com

Checked out your site, some very good advice there for anyone starting out.

There are no problems only situations

============================================================ ============= Walrus Home alt.binaries.pictures.walpaper <=vote here every weekend. weekly entries posted on
http://web.newsguy.com/evilsideshowbob/entries.html
FAQ found at http://members.rogers.com/heretic54/
(The most up to date version is posted in alt.binaries.pictures.walpaper on Mondays and Thursdays. PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING)
Walrus websites: http://web.newsguy.com/evilsideshowbob/ For Contest Archives & Artists http://www.weeklywalrus.com ============================================================ =============
B
BFM
Jul 22, 2003
Here, now you don’t have to search for the images:

http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-04.html

http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1897/opp97-01.html

http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-33.html

http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-14.html

http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-15.html

…. there are more.

So, what you’re saying is, that by the age of 17, you were able to paint like the paintings he did above?

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"BFM" wrote in message
I remember sitting in my Arts History class in University and thinking
the
same things as you, but I was proved wrong.

I’m here for edification and education, please enlighten me; perhaps I
have
been guilty of maligning the man when he is not able to defend himself.
Picasso, was an incredibly gifted painter. His work was compared to
some
of
the Baroque-Period masters (e.g. Titian, Bellini, Caravaggio, etc.).

By whom, did she put her white stick down to examine the works?
We
always compare Picasso’s works with distorted forms and shapes, but that style of painting didn’t come along till later in his life.

To conceal his poor craftsmanship,
on the art front he pulled off the biggest con job going.
When Picasso was a young painter he decided that he wanted to do
something
‘unique’.

Don’t we all, then the realities of life rush in upon us.
A current style/genre that had been forming in Europe was called ‘Modernism’, so he started experimenting with the pre-emanate genre of
the
time. He came up with what he called ‘cubism’.

I suppose that makes his clients complete three dimensional squares. 🙂
It pretty much went on from there.

Dali had similar ideas of artistic freedom, he learned to draw and paint properly before he engaged in his aims. At least with Dali you know that when you are looking at something that is what he intended. With Picasso
the
brush might have slipped.
As far as I can see, Picasso’s merit is the fact that as a Communist he survived WWII in a Fascist regime. For that I admire him, for his
political
statements in the face of danger, I admire him when I consider what it may have cost him. But as a craftsman I have seen no evidence of his ability.
To say that he couldn’t draw, had no idea of perspective, and was not proportionate, is inaccurate.

I have been messing around with some of his images that are supposed to be representational, in particular "The Artist and his Model (1914)" Neither the artist or the model are proportionate, in fact I would say
that
she is positively grotesque; for starters her legs are far too short compared to the body length. Closer examination reveals that no care at
all
has been taken in setting out the proportions of either figure.
Here’s a site with a history and examples of his early work, and later modernist paintings:
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/

Thank you When I have a moment I’ll visit this site.

Gary Peach

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$,
"ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

Picasso probably
could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for
thousands
but
could he have lived with himself and what would that have done for
his
reputation in the long run?

What’s all the fuss about him he couldn’t draw, had no idea of
perspective
and couldn’t get the proportions of the body right, he was a poor
craftsman.
GaryPeach

GP
Gary Peach
Jul 22, 2003
"Hunter Elliott" wrote in message
"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"n8 skow" wrote in message
…and it probably ‘looks’ like a 15 minute logo…

I know something that only takes 4 minutes and pleases everybody.

2.5 minutes, Gary…. microwave popcorn! 🙂

I’m on the little blue pills

I’d been taking them for a month before I found out they are – – – warfarin 🙂

Gary Peach
HE
Hunter Elliott
Jul 22, 2003
"David Nicholson" wrote in message
It usually takes the bartender at my corner bar 4 min to change the keg…
I
wonder?

hey, if we start them at the same time we can get fresh popcorn and fresh beer! woohoo! Now if we could only get good pizza that fast 🙂
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 22, 2003
"Thomas Myers" wrote in message
Picasso started off by trading art for lunch.
Everyone needs to start somewhere.

Sure, but with practice you are supposed to get better.

Gary Peach
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 22, 2003
"BFM" wrote in message
Here, now you don’t have to search for the images:

http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-04.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1897/opp97-01.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-33.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-14.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-15.html
… there are more.

So, what you’re saying is, that by the age of 17, you were able to paint like the paintings he did above?

I know 10 year olds that do better than that for free.
Take a look at the proportions of the girl on the left in a hat in "Minotauromachy" (1935)
By 38 he still hadn’t learn proportion

He obviously had learned little about anatomy when he atempted "The Large Bather" in 1921
The models left arm is almost twice the size of her right arm. Take a good look at the breast
Take a line through the centre of the eyes and see how they are twisted in the head Making her look as though she has a cold in the right eye.

"Three Women at the Fountain" again 1921 is naive art, hardly the stuff of a grand master craftsman?

The deformed maidens in "Figures at the Seaside" 1931

It is no wonder that he resorted to abstraction to conceal his incompetence.

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978" by Dali He makes this abench mark and reference to his ability as a craftsman. He painted the picture twice because the colour tone of his first rendition did not satisfy his exacting standards.
Now when you see that the man was a good draftsman you know that the Violin in "Instrument masochiste 1933-1934" is intentionally like that and the symbolism does not pass un-noticed.
His demonstration of duality of line is adequately expressed in "The image disappears, 1938"
The further demonstration in pictures such as "Marche d’esclaves avec apparitions du buste invisble de Voltaire, 1940" Where shape area and tonality are used cleverly as a modern restatement of "The French Ambassadors" by Holbein
"Le grand paranoiaque, 1936" confirms his ability to play with area and tone.
by 1954 there is no mistaking the message of "Jeune vierge autosodomisee par les cornes de sa propre chastetee".
I wonder what sort of mess Picasso would have made of that subject.

Then of course there are his cinematic works.
Including his dream sequences for Hitchcock.

Gary Peach
FD
Fred Doyle
Jul 22, 2003
I designed a logo for a real estate company in 1980 for $35 that was used for over 15 years, until the company was bought out by another. Not exactly the Nike Swoosh, mind you, but it gave the company a unique identifier that lasted years. I got no stock, no royalties, nothing but the original $35, and believe me I kicked myself every time I saw it. In truth, however, I never really regretted it. I was trying to start out in this geographic area and was an unknown. It got me other work and recognition, it taught me a lesson, and it gave me a great story to tell. That being said, let me tell you I hope no other young artist gets caught like that.

Fred

"BFM" wrote in message
True, Stephan. I should have clarified. I was talking about creating
both
logo/branding, and general graphic-design work for the company’s I mentioned. The Nike logo was a bad example. Although, in 1971 terms, $35.00 was two – almost three – days wages (minimum wage), and this done
by
a college student.

I wonder how many people knew/know about that Nike swoosh. One thing I’ve always wondered is if, Caroline, ever received royalties for her design?
I
read on a newsgroup once that she made a few pennies for each product
sale.
Do you know if that’s true?

Ryan

"Stephan" wrote in message
"BFM" wrote in message
Adam:

I’d like to know the designers that knock up a "half-decent" logo in
10
mins. I can sketch stuff out on paper in probably that time, but
that’s
about it, and it’s no where near done. Is he going to pay me $100 for
a
sketch on paper?

I’m also trying to figure out in my head how many $100 logo’s would
cover
a
university degree, and 5+ years experience.

Let’s equate this to working in an architectural office. Some guy
walks
in,
says he’s got $100, and he just wants a basic floor plan, that’s it.
No
fixture placement, no dimensions, no notes on material, nothing.
Well,
my
first guess is he would be laughed out of the office, but if someone
did
take the job, they would sketch it out on a used napkin, and demand
the
entire $100. Not once, in my 5+ years now of working in the
architectural
industry, has someone pulled something like that. Why? Because they
would
be laughed out of the office. There is a fixed (base) fee, and the
guy
wanting the sketch would get what he paid for. He would end up paying
$100
in clerical fees before the Architect even touched the napkin with a
pencil.
If I take this argument further, what you’re saying (basically) is,
the
skills of a graphic-artist are less viable and useful then those of an architect? In certain instances you’re right (knowledge of codes,
design
parameters, etc.), and then again, I look at companies like Nike,
Cingular
Wireless, etc. and the viability argument fails.

Just curious, Adam, are you still living at home? How many $100
logo’s
do
you think it would take to pay rent, business costs, etc.? When you attended college, did they let you know that $100 knock-offs for
logo’s
was
a good deal? Did you attend college? I’m sure the guys who have
created
material for Nike, for instance, would have done their work for
$5.00/hr.
I
mean, hey, it’s only graphic-design.

And what does "poncey" mean? Is that British slang?

I agree with you in general but Nike was a bad example. Here is why:
"THE SWOOSH

The SWOOSH logo is a graphic design created by Caroline Davidson in
1971.
It
represents the wing of the Greek goddess NIKE.

Caroline Davidson was a student at Portland State University interested
in
advertising. She met Phil Knight while he was teaching accounting
classes
and she started doing some freelance work for his company.
Phil Knight asked Caroline to design a logo that could be placed on the
side
of a shoe. She handed him the SWOOSH, he handed her $35.
In spring of 1972, the first shoe with the NIKE SWOOSH was introduced .
the
rest is history"

Stephan

B
BFM
Jul 22, 2003
First off, let me say, I’m actually not a "fan" of Picasso. That being said, however, I do think he created some great art.

I know 10 year olds that do better than that for free.
Take a look at the proportions of the girl on the left in a hat in "Minotauromachy" (1935)
By 38 he still hadn’t learn proportion

Much like in another post, I would be interested in finding a 10 yr old who could paint like Picasso because there would be a potential to make millions.

As for the "Minotauromachy", he (Picasso) was already painting abstracts by this time.

He obviously had learned little about anatomy when he atempted "The Large Bather" in 1921
The models left arm is almost twice the size of her right arm. Take a good look at the breast
Take a line through the centre of the eyes and see how they are twisted in the head Making her look as though she has a cold in the right eye.

Again, abstract time period.

"Three Women at the Fountain" again 1921 is naive art, hardly the stuff of a grand master craftsman?

The deformed maidens in "Figures at the Seaside" 1931

And again.

It is no wonder that he resorted to abstraction to conceal his
incompetence.

Actually, Picasso painted in many different genres ie. Reaslism, Cubism, Surrealism, Neo-classical, etc. Dali did the same (with the exception of Cubism, at least not to my knowledge).

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978" by Dali He makes this abench mark and reference to his ability as a craftsman. He painted the picture twice because the colour tone of his first
rendition
did not satisfy his exacting standards.
Now when you see that the man was a good draftsman you know that the Violin in "Instrument masochiste 1933-1934" is intentionally like that and the symbolism does not pass un-noticed.
His demonstration of duality of line is adequately expressed in "The image disappears, 1938"
The further demonstration in pictures such as "Marche d’esclaves avec apparitions du buste invisble de Voltaire, 1940" Where shape area and tonality are used cleverly as a modern restatement of "The French Ambassadors" by Holbein
"Le grand paranoiaque, 1936" confirms his ability to play with area and tone.
by 1954 there is no mistaking the message of "Jeune vierge autosodomisee
par
les cornes de sa propre chastetee".
I wonder what sort of mess Picasso would have made of that subject.

I feel like I just read verbatim from one of my univesity texts.

Admittedly, Dali’s ability to convey realism through mishapened forms and surrealistic landscape and architecture were, and are, unmatched. He was a master. This does not mean to say that Picasso is not rightly suited with the "masters". During the turn of the century there were thousands, if not millions, of artists pining to have their works displayed to the world. To be one of a handful of well known artist’s who not only had there work disseminated globally, but to be regarded as an artist’s artist, well… I don’t see Gary Peach at the Louvre, just as I don’t see Ryan Ukrainetz at the Bilbao.

Then of course there are his cinematic works.
Including his dream sequences for Hitchcock.

Gary Peach

GP
Gary Peach
Jul 22, 2003
"BFM" wrote in message
First off, let me say, I’m actually not a "fan" of Picasso. That being said, however, I do think he created some great art.

I know 10 year olds that do better than that for free.
Take a look at the proportions of the girl on the left in a hat in "Minotauromachy" (1935)
By 38 he still hadn’t learnt proportion

Much like in another post, I would be interested in finding a 10 yr old
who
could paint like Picasso because there would be a potential to make millions.

I guess you can fool some of the people etc…

As for the "Minotauromachy", he (Picasso) was already painting abstracts
by
this time.

This is obviously a representational picture, no suggestion of abstraction.

He obviously had learned little about anatomy when he atempted "The Large Bather" in 1921
The models left arm is almost twice the size of her right arm. Take a good look at the breast
Take a line through the centre of the eyes and see how they are twisted
in
the head Making her look as though she has a cold in the right eye.

Again, abstract time period.

No excuse for bad draughtsmanship.
We are discussing a professional artist not somebody that paints to pass the time.

"Three Women at the Fountain" again 1921 is naive art, hardly the stuff of a grand master craftsman?

The deformed maidens in "Figures at the Seaside" 1931

And again.

Indeed more poor draughtsmanship.

It is no wonder that he resorted to abstraction to conceal his
incompetence.

Actually, Picasso painted in many different genres ie. Reaslism, Cubism, Surrealism, Neo-classical, etc. Dali did the same (with the exception of Cubism, at least not to my knowledge).

I must admit to only having seen a small fraction of Picassoe’s work, but none of that which I have seen convinces me that he is anything more than mediocre.

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978" by Dali He makes this a bench mark and reference to his ability as a craftsman. He painted the picture twice because the colour tone of his first rendition did not satisfy his exacting standards.
Now when you see that the man was a good draftsman you know that the Violin in "Instrument masochiste 1933-1934" is intentionally like
that
and the symbolism does not pass un-noticed.
His demonstration of duality of line is adequately expressed in "The
image
disappears, 1938"
The further demonstration in pictures such as "Marche d’esclaves avec apparitions du buste invisble de Voltaire, 1940" Where shape area and tonality are used cleverly as a modern restatement of "The French Ambassadors" by Holbein
"Le grand paranoiaque, 1936" confirms his ability to play with area and tone.
by 1954 there is no mistaking the message of "Jeune vierge autosodomisee par les cornes de sa propre chastetee".
I wonder what sort of mess Picasso would have made of that subject.

I feel like I just read verbatim from one of my univesity texts.

This is my own opinion expressed in my own words.
I do not expect anyone to agree with me, especially when you consider how many Piucassoes have been salted away in banks by both private individuals and financial institutions and pension funds. They would perhaps rather dispatch me rather than admit any veracity to my opinion. Can you imagine the panic in the finacial world?

Admittedly, Dali’s ability to convey realism through mishapened forms and surrealistic landscape and architecture were, and are, unmatched. He was
a
master. This does not mean to say that Picasso is not rightly suited with the "masters".

It is a shame that I am unable to demonstrate the relative merit of Picasso by means other than comparison with somebody that really knew what he was about. In absolute terms it is quite impossible with artistic works. I seldom agree with my wife for instance she like Monet I prefer Renoir. Neither can be classed absolutely, the fact that others get pleasure from works which initially gave the artist pleasure is a bonus, but not one that is universally available in every case.

During the turn of the century there were thousands, if not millions, of artists pining to have their works displayed to the world.
To
be one of a handful of well known artist’s who not only had there work disseminated globally, but to be regarded as an artist’s artist, well… I don’t see Gary Peach at the Louvre,

And nor will you, even if time travel was possible;
neither will you see my work displayed in any other public place. 🙂

just as I don’t see Ryan Ukrainetz at the Bilbao.

It depends upon who is in the chair.

Gary Peach
T
Thomas Myers
Jul 22, 2003
Point well taken.

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Thomas Myers" wrote in message
Picasso started off by trading art for lunch.
Everyone needs to start somewhere.

Sure, but with practice you are supposed to get better.

Gary Peach

HH
Huckleberry Hoshimoto
Jul 22, 2003
You clowns are a LAUGH!
How many millions have YOU made with YOUR artwork?
What gives you the horsepower to even mention the names of Dali or Picasso?

In 1975 a popular abstract painting sold millions simply because it happened to have been painted by an ELEPHANT! Later, a picture of that canvas was taken by a monkey (which also became popular).
It certainly doesn’t mean that either of them had any "talent".

Go back to your ‘Paint By The Numbers’ piece of cardboard!

"BFM" wrote in message
First off, let me say, I’m actually not a "fan" of Picasso. That being said, however, I do think he created some great art.

I know 10 year olds that do better than that for free.
Take a look at the proportions of the girl on the left in a hat in "Minotauromachy" (1935)
By 38 he still hadn’t learn proportion

Much like in another post, I would be interested in finding a 10 yr old
who
could paint like Picasso because there would be a potential to make millions.

As for the "Minotauromachy", he (Picasso) was already painting abstracts
by
this time.

He obviously had learned little about anatomy when he atempted "The Large Bather" in 1921
The models left arm is almost twice the size of her right arm. Take a good look at the breast
Take a line through the centre of the eyes and see how they are twisted
in
the head Making her look as though she has a cold in the right eye.

Again, abstract time period.

"Three Women at the Fountain" again 1921 is naive art, hardly the stuff of a grand master craftsman?

The deformed maidens in "Figures at the Seaside" 1931

And again.

It is no wonder that he resorted to abstraction to conceal his
incompetence.

Actually, Picasso painted in many different genres ie. Reaslism, Cubism, Surrealism, Neo-classical, etc. Dali did the same (with the exception of Cubism, at least not to my knowledge).

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978" by Dali He makes this abench mark and reference to his ability as a craftsman. He painted the picture twice because the colour tone of his first
rendition
did not satisfy his exacting standards.
Now when you see that the man was a good draftsman you know that the Violin in "Instrument masochiste 1933-1934" is intentionally like
that
and the symbolism does not pass un-noticed.
His demonstration of duality of line is adequately expressed in "The
image
disappears, 1938"
The further demonstration in pictures such as "Marche d’esclaves avec apparitions du buste invisble de Voltaire, 1940" Where shape area and tonality are used cleverly as a modern restatement of "The French Ambassadors" by Holbein
"Le grand paranoiaque, 1936" confirms his ability to play with area and tone.
by 1954 there is no mistaking the message of "Jeune vierge autosodomisee
par
les cornes de sa propre chastetee".
I wonder what sort of mess Picasso would have made of that subject.

I feel like I just read verbatim from one of my univesity texts.
Admittedly, Dali’s ability to convey realism through mishapened forms and surrealistic landscape and architecture were, and are, unmatched. He was
a
master. This does not mean to say that Picasso is not rightly suited with the "masters". During the turn of the century there were thousands, if
not
millions, of artists pining to have their works displayed to the world.
To
be one of a handful of well known artist’s who not only had there work disseminated globally, but to be regarded as an artist’s artist, well… I don’t see Gary Peach at the Louvre, just as I don’t see Ryan Ukrainetz at the Bilbao.

Then of course there are his cinematic works.
Including his dream sequences for Hitchcock.

Gary Peach

B
BFM
Jul 22, 2003
What the heck are you talking about? Do you actually read before you post?

We’re arguing for the talent’s of both artists we mentioned, not decrying their skills.

If you’re trying to compare ‘elephant’ art with Picasso or Dali, then you’re on some type of high, cause obviously rationale eludes you.

"H
FD
Fred Doyle
Jul 22, 2003
Please, do not feed the troll.

Fred

"BFM" wrote in message
What the heck are you talking about? Do you actually read before you
post?
We’re arguing for the talent’s of both artists we mentioned, not decrying their skills.

If you’re trying to compare ‘elephant’ art with Picasso or Dali, then
you’re
on some type of high, cause obviously rationale eludes you.
"H
B
BFM
Jul 22, 2003
Sorry, Fred.

Will not let it happen again.

Ryan

"Fred Doyle" wrote in message
Please, do not feed the troll.

Fred

"BFM" wrote in message
What the heck are you talking about? Do you actually read before you
post?
We’re arguing for the talent’s of both artists we mentioned, not
decrying
their skills.

If you’re trying to compare ‘elephant’ art with Picasso or Dali, then
you’re
on some type of high, cause obviously rationale eludes you.
"H
GD
Gary Dickson
Jul 22, 2003
Wow!

This all started with a comment which I made intended simply to point out that many of us "creatives" do in fact take our work seriously. We feel like we have something of value to contribute to society and as such are careful to not spew out 10 minute logos unless under great duress. And it seems to me that far to many people undervalue what designers do. This whole thread is case in point — even many designers undervalue (by far) the value of well thought out, carefully executed design. It disturbs me greatly!

On 7/22/03 1:21 PM, in article
91hTa.513816$, "BFM"
wrote:

Sorry, Fred.

Will not let it happen again.

Ryan

"Fred Doyle" wrote in message
Please, do not feed the troll.

Fred

"BFM" wrote in message
What the heck are you talking about? Do you actually read before you
post?
We’re arguing for the talent’s of both artists we mentioned, not
decrying
their skills.

If you’re trying to compare ‘elephant’ art with Picasso or Dali, then
you’re
on some type of high, cause obviously rationale eludes you.
"Hü©klëßë®®ÿ Hö§hïmötö" wrote in message
You clowns are a LAUGH!
How many millions have YOU made with YOUR artwork?
What gives you the horsepower to even mention the names of Dali or
Picasso?
In 1975 a popular abstract painting sold millions simply because it
happened
to have been painted by an ELEPHANT! Later, a picture of that canvas
was
taken by a monkey (which also became popular).
It certainly doesn’t mean that either of them had any "talent".
Go back to your ‘Paint By The Numbers’ piece of cardboard!

"BFM" wrote in message
First off, let me say, I’m actually not a "fan" of Picasso. That
being
said, however, I do think he created some great art.

I know 10 year olds that do better than that for free.
Take a look at the proportions of the girl on the left in a hat in "Minotauromachy" (1935)
By 38 he still hadn’t learn proportion

Much like in another post, I would be interested in finding a 10 yr
old
who
could paint like Picasso because there would be a potential to make millions.

As for the "Minotauromachy", he (Picasso) was already painting
abstracts
by
this time.

He obviously had learned little about anatomy when he atempted "The Large Bather" in 1921
The models left arm is almost twice the size of her right arm. Take a good look at the breast
Take a line through the centre of the eyes and see how they are
twisted
in
the head Making her look as though she has a cold in the right
eye.
Again, abstract time period.

"Three Women at the Fountain" again 1921 is naive art, hardly the stuff of a grand master craftsman?

The deformed maidens in "Figures at the Seaside" 1931

And again.

It is no wonder that he resorted to abstraction to conceal his
incompetence.

Actually, Picasso painted in many different genres ie. Reaslism,
Cubism,
Surrealism, Neo-classical, etc. Dali did the same (with the
exception
of
Cubism, at least not to my knowledge).

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978" by Dali He makes this abench mark and reference to his ability as a
craftsman.
He painted the picture twice because the colour tone of his first
rendition
did not satisfy his exacting standards.
Now when you see that the man was a good draftsman you know that the Violin in "Instrument masochiste 1933-1934" is intentionally
like
that
and the symbolism does not pass un-noticed.
His demonstration of duality of line is adequately expressed in
"The
image
disappears, 1938"
The further demonstration in pictures such as "Marche d’esclaves
avec
apparitions du buste invisble de Voltaire, 1940" Where shape area
and
tonality are used cleverly as a modern restatement of "The French Ambassadors" by Holbein
"Le grand paranoiaque, 1936" confirms his ability to play with
area
and
tone.
by 1954 there is no mistaking the message of "Jeune vierge
autosodomisee
par
les cornes de sa propre chastetee".
I wonder what sort of mess Picasso would have made of that
subject.
I feel like I just read verbatim from one of my univesity texts.
Admittedly, Dali’s ability to convey realism through mishapened
forms
and
surrealistic landscape and architecture were, and are, unmatched.
He
was
a
master. This does not mean to say that Picasso is not rightly
suited
with
the "masters". During the turn of the century there were thousands,
if
not
millions, of artists pining to have their works displayed to the
world.
To
be one of a handful of well known artist’s who not only had there
work
disseminated globally, but to be regarded as an artist’s artist,
well…
I
don’t see Gary Peach at the Louvre, just as I don’t see Ryan
Ukrainetz
at
the Bilbao.

Then of course there are his cinematic works.
Including his dream sequences for Hitchcock.

Gary Peach
GD
Gary Dickson
Jul 22, 2003
On 7/22/03 11:44 AM, in article
TBfTa.114964$, "Hü©klëßë®®ÿ
Hö§hïmötö" wrote:

How many millions have YOU made with YOUR artwork?
What gives you the horsepower to even mention the names of Dali or Picasso?

SO what your saying here is that in order for us to discuss art/craft or find inspiration in great examples from the past — we first have to reach Dalis or Picassos level of workmanship and/or notoriety? I guess we’d all better just shut down our newsreaders and go home.

AS for me — I’d rather attempt to raise the bar than to lower it or ignore it altogether.

Gary D.
GD
Gary Dickson
Jul 22, 2003
And we all know that how the rest of the world goes the U.S. follows — one needs only to look at history to see how true that is.

But seriously — There may be SOME truth to that, however I would tend rather to believe that the "global" rate will rise — or I would LIKE to think that — when everyone begins to see the unsavory ubiquitous results of the "design in under an hour" philosophy there will be an increased demand for design that is thoughtful and well crafted.

The bottom line here, for me anyway, has really been and continues to be this — do I want to be or am I in fact a Kinkos level designer (is that what I went to 5 years of art school for) or do I plan to aim a little higher? BTW — That’s a rhetorical question 😉

I have no problem with people buying and selling design for what ever price they want. But, as for me and my small studio, we will continue to strive for something a little finer. What does that make me?

Gary D.

On 7/22/03 4:47 AM, in article
, "Kingdom"
wrote:

Hey guys I got to laugh at you all, bitchin about this deal. The global going rate for a logo is 300 dollars. So the guy is lookin for a bargin but he could have posted it here

http://www.elance.com/c/cats/main/categories.pl?catId=10231& amp;type=buyer
Remember your going to be dealing with global prices. In the UK Big companies are out-sourcing to India and the far east, British Telecom for example, where they pay a sixth or less in wage bills. You can pitch big prices to locals that haven’t yet grasped the global market system but that’s all changing fast.
FD
Fred Doyle
Jul 22, 2003
It has been a good discussion. I got some nice links to Picasso Art, whose work I like a lot. I took my wife and kids to an exhibit of Picasso’s erotic art in Monteral last summer. It was amazing, and yes, people will pay extraordinary sums for anything he signed his name to. The mood was set on entering by showing a 1920’s pornographic silent film. (An interesting cross of threads from this newsgroup, I wonder was she abused?) He produced erotic art well up into his 80’s.

I won’t even discuss his abililty as a draftsman, his ability or inability to get proportion correct when that was his objective (if it ever was), or his painterly ability. The thing I find most interesting about Picasso and others of his time is that they were drawn to painting and printmaking at a time when it was losing one of its traditional functions, i.e. to document people and events. The camera was diplacing those arts in that role. These artists saw their artwork as not needing to fulfill that purpose, and it freed them up to find other purposes for what they did.


Fred Doyle
www.leafpublishing.com

"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/22/03 11:44 AM, in article
TBfTa.114964$, "H
DN
David Nicholson
Jul 23, 2003
you are talking to a child hiding behind a mask at best. Most likly you are (in his mind if he/she has one) you are making his/her point. You can’t argue/discuss with someone that does not think before they post…

As it has been told; It is better to sit back and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and prove it. The person you are posting back to, has proven it…

Yah people like that make me angry some times, but that is what they want to do… Don’t feed it – it will get bigger! (LOL)

DSN

"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/22/03 11:44 AM, in article
TBfTa.114964$, "H
DN
David Nicholson
Jul 23, 2003
Thanks for reminding me I am stuck in MOOSE JAW!!! LOL…

"Fred Doyle" wrote in message
It has been a good discussion. I got some nice links to Picasso Art, whose work I like a lot. I took my wife and kids to an exhibit of Picasso’s
erotic
art in Monteral last summer. It was amazing, and yes, people will pay extraordinary sums for anything he signed his name to. The mood was set on entering by showing a 1920’s pornographic silent film. (An interesting
cross
of threads from this newsgroup, I wonder was she abused?) He produced
erotic
art well up into his 80’s.

I won’t even discuss his abililty as a draftsman, his ability or inability to get proportion correct when that was his objective (if it ever was), or his painterly ability. The thing I find most interesting about Picasso and others of his time is that they were drawn to painting and printmaking at
a
time when it was losing one of its traditional functions, i.e. to document people and events. The camera was diplacing those arts in that role. These artists saw their artwork as not needing to fulfill that purpose, and it freed them up to find other purposes for what they did.


Fred Doyle
www.leafpublishing.com

"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/22/03 11:44 AM, in article
TBfTa.114964$, "H
DN
David Nicholson
Jul 23, 2003
LOL…

"Hunter Elliott" wrote in message
"David Nicholson" wrote in message
It usually takes the bartender at my corner bar 4 min to change the
keg…
I
wonder?

hey, if we start them at the same time we can get fresh popcorn and fresh beer! woohoo! Now if we could only get good pizza that fast 🙂
H
Hecate
Jul 23, 2003
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 06:04:52 +0000 (UTC), "Gary Peach" wrote:

"n8 skow" wrote in message
…and it probably ‘looks’ like a 15 minute logo…

I know something that only takes 4 minutes and pleases everybody.
GaryPeach
And they wonder why men have a bad reputation…

😉



Hecate
(Fried computers a specialty)
HH
Huckleberry Hoshimoto
Jul 23, 2003
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/22/03 11:44 AM, in article
TBfTa.114964$, "H
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 23, 2003
"H
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 23, 2003
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
Wow!

This all started with a comment which I made intended simply to point out that many of us "creatives" do in fact take our work seriously.

Yes indeed and the comparison between P & D, (I’ll avoid the names as it seems to irritate some into a frenzy), was precisly speaking to that very point. D took his work seriously whilst P treated it as rather a joke.

We feel like
we have something of value to contribute to society and as such are
careful
to not spew out 10 minute logos unless under great duress.

Perhaps if they were not so virulent we would not see Coca Cola around every corner.
But I feel this has far more to do with the resource of the marketing company than the basic quality of the art work.

And it seems to me that far to many people undervalue what designers do.

Especially the designers themselves.
How many are so desperate for recognition that they work cheap?

This whole thread is case in point —
even many designers undervalue (by far) the value of
well thought out, carefully executed design.

I think that we agree that.

It disturbs me greatly!

Why?
Is it affecting your bank balance?
Remember that luck plays a large part in sucess, you have to be in the right place at the right time. If your skills match your clients needs does not mean that you will neccassarily make a commercial success, the client’s product may be crap.

Gary Peach
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 23, 2003
"Fred Doyle" wrote in message
It has been a good discussion. I got some nice links to Picasso Art, whose work I like a lot. I took my wife and kids to an exhibit of Picasso’s
erotic
art in Monteral last summer. It was amazing, and yes, people will pay extraordinary sums for anything he signed his name to. The mood was set on entering by showing a 1920’s pornographic silent film. (An interesting
cross
of threads from this newsgroup, I wonder was she abused?) He produced
erotic
art well up into his 80’s.

His ability to produce erotica does not raise his worth as a craftsman. Some demonstrate their sexuality in a plastic mac and plimsols, we lock them up.
This has more to do with social values of teh time than the skill of the artist.
I certainly can not imagine getting an errection from any of Picaso’s works. Nor for that matter any of Dali’s.
However some of the sexual comment by Dali does make its mark for me intellectually.

I won’t even discuss his abililty as a draftsman, his ability or inability to get proportion correct when that was his objective (if it ever was), or his painterly ability. The thing I find most interesting about Picasso and others of his time is that they were drawn to painting and printmaking at
a
time when it was losing one of its traditional functions, i.e. to document people and events. The camera was diplacing those arts in that role. These artists saw their artwork as not needing to fulfill that purpose, and it freed them up to find other purposes for what they did.

They must have felt a great sense of deflation and worthlessness. Perhaps that is the point of Picasso’s disregard for good craftsmanship, it was a shrug of the shoulders and a "What the Hell", How do I eat now?

Luckily for them the hype that was made by the agents was sufficient to hook a great audience on a great myth.
We see the same phenomenon in the recorded music industry, talentless, monotonic word speakers make millions as the puppets of the recording and distribution companies. Foisted onto a gullible public by advertising and other devices.
Do any of them have anything interesting or useful to say?

Gary Peach
K
Kingdom
Jul 23, 2003
Gary Dickson wrote in
news:BB4303D7.6246%:

And we all know that how the rest of the world goes the U.S. follows — one needs only to look at history to see how true that is.
But seriously — There may be SOME truth to that, however I would tend rather to believe that the "global" rate will rise — or I would LIKE to think that — when everyone begins to see the unsavory ubiquitous results of the "design in under an hour" philosophy there will be an increased demand for design that is thoughtful and well crafted.
The bottom line here, for me anyway, has really been and continues to be this — do I want to be or am I in fact a Kinkos level designer (is that what I went to 5 years of art school for) or do I plan to aim a little higher? BTW — That’s a rhetorical question 😉

I have no problem with people buying and selling design for what ever price they want. But, as for me and my small studio, we will continue to strive for something a little finer. What does that make me?
Gary D.

On 7/22/03 4:47 AM, in article
, "Kingdom"
wrote:

Hey guys I got to laugh at you all, bitchin about this deal. The global going rate for a logo is 300 dollars. So the guy is lookin for a bargin but he could have posted it here

http://www.elance.com/c/cats/main/categories.pl?catId=10231& amp;type=buyer
Remember your going to be dealing with global prices. In the UK Big companies are out-sourcing to India and the far east, British Telecom for example, where they pay a sixth or less in wage bills. You can pitch big prices to locals that haven’t yet grasped the global market system but that’s all changing fast.

So long as you continue to find customers to pay the price you require to allow you those time scales there is no problem. What I’m saying is that the customers are starting to use labour that will still put the time in, have the talent & skill but will work for a sixth of the cost.


There are no problems only situations

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FD
Fred Doyle
Jul 23, 2003
"Gary Peach" wrote

I certainly can not imagine getting an errection from any of Picaso’s
works.

Nor I, that’s why I felt very comfortable taking my kids. It is tough to get excited over cubist erotic art. It was still very expressive.

They must have felt a great sense of deflation and worthlessness.

I wouldn’t even venture a guess as to how it made them feel. I can look at the artwork of the period and see that much of what artists and the public responded to most strongly during that period was art that seemed to revel in the fact that it didn’t have to be representational any more, and didn’t have to serve to document people and events.

Perhaps that is the point of Picasso’s disregard for good craftsmanship,
it
was a shrug of the shoulders and a "What the Hell",

Perhaps, perhaps he was struggling to find another system by which to judge his and other’s art. Perhaps it didn’t matter to him, the critics and the general public because they felt that the ability to render accurately was becoming less important in painting and printmaking. I’m not saying you are wrong in placing such high importance on the ability of the painters and printmakes to render proportion and perspective and light and shadow. If that is the criteria by which you judge a painter and his skill, you certainly have that right to set those standards for yourself. Are they the be-all, end-all criteria for evaluating all painting and printmaking throughout the ages? It is obvious that those are not the standards that were used by the public and the critics in Picasso’s time to find value in most of his work. Are they wrong in doing that? Not to me, but I have a love for some very primitive art, folk art, ancient art, etc.

As I said, I won’t debate whether or not Picasso demonstrated high quality traditional craftsmanship in his early work becasue I really haven’t studied that body of his work extensively and actually, personally, I those criteria are irrelevant in judging most of his work and his place in art history.

We see the same phenomenon in the recorded music industry, talentless, monotonic word speakers make millions as the puppets of the recording and distribution companies. Foisted onto a gullible public by advertising and other devices.

I assume you are speaking of Rap and Hip-hop. I tell my teenagers this is one of the most ancient art forms, chanting and drumming to tell stories. Rythmic chanting dates back to the oral tradtitions of numerous societies. It was how people remembered stories before they could read. It’s not my cup o’ tea, mind you, but it isn’t anything new. Is it music? I don’t know, its not my specialty at all. When a musical icon like Quincy Jones puts out a CD that makes extensive use of the form (Q’s Jook Joint), I at least give it some room. I try to remember that Charlie Parker, et al were repeatedly derided for "not playing music" while inventing BeBop as a musical form. We’ll see if the form lasts. Will anybody be covering those greatest Rap hits of the 90’s in 40 years? Will there be a strong contingent of Rappers out ther performing in 50 or 60 years? People still perform BeBop and cover and are inspried by Confirmation, Donna Lee a Night in Tunisia, etc., despite what was said of them at the time.

Fred
P
Pip
Jul 23, 2003
Very interesting debate on the merits of 2 great artists. Thank you to all who have participated.

<snip>

Well that went somewher that I had not expected, I was really slating the popular mass market money making plug number industry. I guess what really irritates me is not that the Record companies do it, they wouldn’t if it was not successful, but the fact that the majority audience is so mindless that it falls for this rubbish all of the time. It makes me wonder if there was ever any point in mankind learning to pass on ideas in a symbolic form. Gary Peach

It seems to me that high art and low both have their places. Not everyone has the benefit of education required to seriously critique and even understand the symbolism present in art. Most people just know what they like. Simple paintings with cheerful looking subjects, simple music that makes them feel good. I understand your frustration with the masses, but their naivete doesn’t make them ‘wrong’. Just be glad that you ARE one of the few able to appreciate the things hidden from the majority in the symbolism in great art. I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU appreciate it don’t you? You aren’t alone either. I imagine that more than a few of the people that post here appreciate the skill and insight shown in a wide variety of great art. Even those of us who don’t are at least trying to open our minds to understanding and creating art, and this discussion is part of our ongoing life long education.

I also wanted to mention something regarding part of an earlier post by you:

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978" by Dali He makes this abench mark and reference to his ability as a craftsman. He painted the picture twice because the colour tone of his first rendition did not satisfy his exacting standards.
I may be mistaken, but I think he did 2 versions of this on purpose, but not for the reasons you mention. I don’t think the color tone was a mistake. I think these 2 images were meant to be viewed in a stereograph and the 2 slightly different hues give the image a luminosity that wouldn’t be present if they were identical. Notice the slightly different angles and you can see how they would look 3D viewed via stereograph. (sorry, I have no link to these paintings..) This observation IMHO actually highlights his incredible craftmanship to a greater degree.

just my $.02

Chuck

GP
Gary Peach
Jul 24, 2003
Re: New Logo Design-HELP!!! (Idiots call down great artists!) "Pip" wrote in message Very interesting debate on the merits of 2 great artists. Thank you to all who have participated.

<snip>

Well that went somewher that I had not expected, I was really slating the popular mass market money making plug number industry. I guess what really irritates me is not that the Record companies do it, they wouldn’t if it was not successful, but the fact that the majority audience is so mindless that it falls for this rubbish all of the time. It makes me wonder if there was ever any point in mankind learning to pass on ideas in a symbolic form.
Gary Peach

It seems to me that high art and low both have their places. Not everyone has the benefit of education required to seriously critique and even understand the symbolism present in art.

I have had no Arts education, but not by design things in education were just differnt when I was at school and college. If I need an education to appreciate a piece of art then the artist has failed. All the opinions expressed are my own observations and thoughts on what purpose art fulfills. Certainly when I am playing with my pencils, paints and PSP I shall be conscious of anything that might have come to light in this and other discussions.

Most people just know what they like.

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know what they like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are supposed to respond, "The opiate of the masses"?

Simple paintings with cheerful looking subjects, simple music that makes them feel good.

Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we get precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?

I understand your frustration with the masses, but their naivete doesn’t make them ‘wrong’.

Just as it doesn’t make me right. 🙂

Just be glad that you ARE one of the few able to appreciate the things hidden from the majority in the symbolism in great art.

Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the abscence of a suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t to laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU appreciate it don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?

You aren’t alone either.

I am convinced of that, thank you for your support.

I imagine that more than a few of the people that post here appreciate the skill and insight shown in a wide variety of great art.

Yes I expect that they do and I would not have atempted to open this discussion if I had not thought so and hoped to get a response from as many of them as felt inclined.
More weighty matters than, ‘how do I change colours in the exchange tool’, are I feel as much a part of the use of a graphics package than the simple mechanics of the application. I’m sure that the software authors are as interested in what we use their product for as we are in having useful tools.

Even those of us who don’t are at least trying to open our minds to understanding and creating art, and this discussion is part of our ongoing life long education.

Here hear.

I also wanted to mention something regarding part of an earlier post by you:

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978" by Dali He makes this abench mark and reference to his ability as a craftsman. He painted the picture twice because the colour tone of his first rendition did not satisfy his exacting standards.

I may be mistaken, but I think he did 2 versions of this on purpose, but not for the reasons you mention.

You are most probably correct I have never had a single lesson on this topic and merely use my own powers of observation.

I don’t think the color tone was a mistake. I think these 2 images were meant to be viewed in a stereograph and the 2 slightly different hues give the image a luminosity that wouldn’t be present if they were identical. Notice the slightly different angles and you can see how they would look 3D viewed via stereograph. (sorry, I have no link to these paintings..)

I have the cat-n-dog of the Dali retrospective at the Centre Georges Pompidou 1979 – 80 Prints of this image are there.

This observation IMHO actually highlights his incredible craftmanship to a greater degree.

Yes I think that it does, certainly Picasso would not have been capable of this great skill. I wonder how easy it would be to make a single image of any subject and let PSP produce the companion image

just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach

K
Kingdom
Jul 24, 2003
"coverman design" wrote in news:3f1fac28$0$7600 $:

Hi all,

I’ve made a new logo for the basketball-team I play for. the text under BOSO is in dutch.

What do you think of it? Shoot away…

G

begin 666 logoBOSO2.jpg

Attachment decoded: logoBOSO2.jpg
`
end

post images to alt.binaries.pictures.utilities and refer from here


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P
Pip
Jul 24, 2003
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know what they like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are supposed to respond, "The opiate of the masses"?
O.K., you may have a point about that, But I doubt that they have any concern about their being led. Maybe it’s laziness, maybe it’s just that they have little energy left in their lives to devote to the subject after putting in a hard day working. I certainly understand the lack of enthusiasm to study after working my 10+ hour days. OTOH I do manage to motivate myself for the sake of my own soul, career, and happiness to keep up my hobbies, and attempt to keep my mind active.
Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we get precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid (sp?) cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports. Not much in the way of symbolism, more ‘art as decorating accessory’ than for art’s sake. Besides, what’s wrong with Christmas card art? I make Christmas cards every year. 😉 I have to admit that they certainly aren’t my idea of high art, but I still get compliments and enjoy making them.
Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
Of course they are. I’m not implying stupidity, just a lack of interest.

They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the abscence of a suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t to laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU appreciate it don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?
The point is, those who do appreciate art are reason enough for art to exist. Art has no value beyond what we place on it. It isn’t useful for anything in any practical terms. That may be why people with little time for anything more than their own survival have such a lack of concern about it.
just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
Yeah. I’m not sure I can spare any of the leftovers. 😉

Chuck
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 24, 2003
"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>
That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know what
they
like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are
supposed to
respond, "The opiate of the masses"?
O.K., you may have a point about that, But I doubt that they have any concern about their being led.

Obviously, they are as happy as the proverbial butcher’s dog and about as intelligent.
That sounds terribly arrogant, probably because it is, I just want to shake them and say use the brains that you were given, life will shortly be past and you will have missed the opportunity.

Maybe it’s laziness, maybe it’s just that
they have little energy left in their lives to devote to the subject after putting in a hard day working. I certainly understand the lack of
enthusiasm
to study after working my 10+ hour days.

Golly how do you get away with such a short working day?

OTOH I do manage to motivate myself for the sake of my own soul, career, and happiness to keep up my hobbies, and attempt to keep my mind
active.

Indeed, of course you do.
Just think of the ten to twenty plus others for each one of us that doesn’t.

Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we get precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid (sp?)

Jamaica?

cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports.

I am unfamiliar with Peir One, is this some form of store like Walmart?

Not much in the way of symbolism,
more ‘art as decorating accessory’ than for art’s sake.

In colours to match the curtains?

Besides, what’s wrong with Christmas card art?

Some of it is fine, overpriced, but fine.

I make Christmas cards every year. 😉

Next year, (perhaps this), give a thought to Santa :-
AN ANALYSIS OF SANTA’S GIFT SERVICE
There are approximately two billion children (persons under 18) in the world. However, since Santa does not visit children of Muslim, Hindu, Jewish or Buddhist (except maybe in Japan) religions, this reduces the workload for Christmas night to 15% of the total, or 378 million according to the population reference bureau).

At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, which comes to 108 million homes, presuming there is at least one good child in each.

Santa has about 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 967.7 visits per second.

This is to say that for each Christian household, with a good child, Santa has around 1/1000th of a second to park the sleigh, hop out, jump down the chimney, fill the stocking, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left for him, get back up the chimney, jump into the sleigh and get onto the next house.

Assuming that each of these 108 million stops is evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false, but will accept for the purposes of our calculations), we are now talking about 0.78 miles per household; a total trip of 75.5 million miles, not counting bathroom stops or breaks. This means Santa’s sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second — 3,000 times the speed of sound.

For purposes of comparison, the fastest man made vehicle, the Ulysses space probe moves at a pokey 27.4 miles per second, and a conventional reindeer can run (at best) 15 miles per hour.

The payload of the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium sized LEGO set (two pounds), the sleigh is carrying over 500 thousands tons, not counting Santa himself.

On land, a conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that the "flying" reindeer can pull 10 times that normal amount, the job can’t be done with eight or even NINE of them—Santa would need 360,000 of them. This increases the payload, not counting the weight of the sleigh, another 54,000 tons, or roughly seven times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth (the ship, not the monarch).

600,000 tons travelling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance – this would heat up the reindeer in the same fashion as a spacecraft re-entering the earth’s atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer would absorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy per second each.

In short, they would burst into flames almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them and creating deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team would be vaporised within 4.26 thousandths of a second, or right about the time Santa reached the fifth house on his trip.

Not that it matters, however, since Santa, as a result of accelerating from a dead stop to 650 mps in 0.001 seconds, would be subjected to acceleration forces of 17,000 g’s. A 250 pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of the sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force, instantly crushing his bones and organs and reducing him to a quivering blob of pink goo.

Therefore, if Santa did exist, he’s now dead. [RIP over worked]

Merry Christmas!

I have to admit that they certainly aren’t my idea of high art, but I still get compliments and enjoy making them.

This year if you are still fishing for compliments why not try an Inuit sitting by his hole in the ice with Santa bringing him his Christmas present, "a mirror.
An anagram of ‘Santa’ is ‘Satan’; the mirror can reflect a rear view of Santa with his costume cut away to reveal his scaley tail and firy breath. All is to be drawn on PSP.

Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
Of course they are. I’m not implying stupidity, just a lack of interest.

One day, when it is too late, they’ll all regret that individually.

They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the abscence
of a
suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t to laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU
appreciate it
don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?
The point is, those who do appreciate art are reason enough for art to exist.

The size of the potential market does little for the price to the living artist. 🙁

Art has no value beyond what we place on it.

True, but softly, if the masses hear that then that is exactly what they will be prepared to pay for it.

It isn’t useful for anything in any practical terms.

I had a big book that under one leg of the table just made it level, and an old painting that blocked the hole in the window excluding the draught.

That may be why people with little time for
anything more than their own survival have such a lack of concern about
it.

Should we be concerned about art?
On the other hand, art could be the only worthwhile thing in the whole of the universe.

just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
Yeah. I’m not sure I can spare any of the leftovers. 😉

Do you have pudding or dessert?

Gary Peach
DN
David Nicholson
Jul 25, 2003
Some one got the wrong gift one year…

By the way one could try to enjoy the commercial holidays. All it takes is a 9 inch nail and a hammer; inserted (nail not hammer) into the pre-frontal cortex.

By the way Santa is stuffed and hanging on my wall…

DSN

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>
I make Christmas cards every year. 😉

Next year, (perhaps this), give a thought to Santa :-
AN ANALYSIS OF SANTA’S GIFT SERVICE
There are approximately two billion children (persons under 18) in the world. However, since Santa does not visit children of Muslim, Hindu,
Jewish
or Buddhist (except maybe in Japan) religions, this reduces the workload
for
Christmas night to 15% of the total, or 378 million according to the population reference bureau).

At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, which comes to 108 million homes, presuming there is at least one good child in each.
Santa has about 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the
different
time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming east to west (which
seems
logical). This works out to 967.7 visits per second.

This is to say that for each Christian household, with a good child, Santa has around 1/1000th of a second to park the sleigh, hop out, jump down the chimney, fill the stocking, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left for him, get back up the chimney, jump into the sleigh and get onto the next house.

Assuming that each of these 108 million stops is evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false, but will accept for the purposes of our calculations), we are now talking about 0.78 miles per household; a total trip of 75.5 million miles, not counting bathroom stops or breaks. This means Santa’s sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second — 3,000 times the speed of sound.

For purposes of comparison, the fastest man made vehicle, the Ulysses
space
probe moves at a pokey 27.4 miles per second, and a conventional reindeer can run (at best) 15 miles per hour.

The payload of the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium sized LEGO set (two pounds),
the
sleigh is carrying over 500 thousands tons, not counting Santa himself.
On land, a conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that the "flying" reindeer can pull 10 times that normal amount, the job can’t be done with eight or even NINE of them—Santa would need 360,000 of them. This increases the payload, not counting the weight of
the
sleigh, another 54,000 tons, or roughly seven times the weight of the
Queen
Elizabeth (the ship, not the monarch).

600,000 tons travelling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance – this would heat up the reindeer in the same fashion as a spacecraft re-entering the earth’s atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer would absorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy per second each.
In short, they would burst into flames almost instantaneously, exposing
the
reindeer behind them and creating deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team would be vaporised within 4.26 thousandths of a
second,
or right about the time Santa reached the fifth house on his trip.
Not that it matters, however, since Santa, as a result of accelerating
from
a dead stop to 650 mps in 0.001 seconds, would be subjected to
acceleration
forces of 17,000 g’s. A 250 pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim)
would
be pinned to the back of the sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force,
instantly
crushing his bones and organs and reducing him to a quivering blob of pink goo.

Therefore, if Santa did exist, he’s now dead. [RIP over worked]
Merry Christmas!

Do you have pudding or dessert?

Gary Peach

CR
Charlene Russ
Jul 25, 2003
Oh he definitely could draw, he started drawing realistically at the ripe old age of 6 years! There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he was an uncommon genius, full of innovation and fresh ideas. As for his eccentricities and ‘character flaws’ I don’t doubt those either, but maybe that was part of what made him so good. Like many true geniuses his ideas were not easily understood by the ignorant and some of the poorly educated. As is the case with many artists, I believe he found himself immersed in his own unique vision unfazed by popularity or by social acceptance.

Creative artists are not copiers, xerox machines, or computers; they translate ideas using desired mediums and explore new vistas. Many of them use their artistic vision to transform reality, escape reality, or portray reality in its most painful, vulgar and carnalistic existence. The fact that his work resembled those of the Old Masters by the age of 17 speaks volumes regarding his true level of ability.

Thank you for sharing these links, they are appreciated,

-Charlene Russ
Creative Animation
http://www.eclecticacademy.com

"BFM" wrote in message
Here, now you don’t have to search for the images:

http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-04.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1897/opp97-01.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-33.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-14.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-15.html
… there are more.

So, what you’re saying is, that by the age of 17, you were able to paint like the paintings he did above?

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"BFM" wrote in message
I remember sitting in my Arts History class in University and thinking
the
same things as you, but I was proved wrong.

I’m here for edification and education, please enlighten me; perhaps I
have
been guilty of maligning the man when he is not able to defend himself.
Picasso, was an incredibly gifted painter. His work was compared to
some
of
the Baroque-Period masters (e.g. Titian, Bellini, Caravaggio, etc.).

By whom, did she put her white stick down to examine the works?
We
always compare Picasso’s works with distorted forms and shapes, but
that
style of painting didn’t come along till later in his life.

To conceal his poor craftsmanship,
on the art front he pulled off the biggest con job going.
When Picasso was a young painter he decided that he wanted to do
something
‘unique’.

Don’t we all, then the realities of life rush in upon us.
A current style/genre that had been forming in Europe was called ‘Modernism’, so he started experimenting with the pre-emanate genre of
the
time. He came up with what he called ‘cubism’.

I suppose that makes his clients complete three dimensional squares. 🙂
It pretty much went on from there.

Dali had similar ideas of artistic freedom, he learned to draw and paint properly before he engaged in his aims. At least with Dali you know that when you are looking at something that is what he intended. With Picasso
the
brush might have slipped.
As far as I can see, Picasso’s merit is the fact that as a Communist he survived WWII in a Fascist regime. For that I admire him, for his
political
statements in the face of danger, I admire him when I consider what it
may
have cost him. But as a craftsman I have seen no evidence of his
ability.
To say that he couldn’t draw, had no idea of perspective, and was not proportionate, is inaccurate.

I have been messing around with some of his images that are supposed to
be
representational, in particular "The Artist and his Model (1914)" Neither the artist or the model are proportionate, in fact I would say
that
she is positively grotesque; for starters her legs are far too short compared to the body length. Closer examination reveals that no care at
all
has been taken in setting out the proportions of either figure.
Here’s a site with a history and examples of his early work, and later modernist paintings:
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/

Thank you When I have a moment I’ll visit this site.

Gary Peach

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$,
"ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

Picasso probably
could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for
thousands
but
could he have lived with himself and what would that have done for
his
reputation in the long run?

What’s all the fuss about him he couldn’t draw, had no idea of
perspective
and couldn’t get the proportions of the body right, he was a poor
craftsman.
GaryPeach

CR
Charlene Russ
Jul 25, 2003
Pearls like knowledge and discretion are crushed under the pigs feet.

"H
CR
Charlene Russ
Jul 25, 2003
An artist, regardless of his or her medium suffers a great personal and professional loss when they undersell themselves.

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
Wow!

This all started with a comment which I made intended simply to point
out
that many of us "creatives" do in fact take our work seriously.

Yes indeed and the comparison between P & D, (I’ll avoid the names as it seems to irritate some into a frenzy), was precisly speaking to that very point. D took his work seriously whilst P treated it as rather a joke.
We feel like
we have something of value to contribute to society and as such are
careful
CR
Charlene Russ
Jul 25, 2003
Re: New Logo Design-HELP!!! (Idiots call down great artists!)I think that artistic education is important insofar as it helps the artist to realize his or her own creative vision. For me I have found it useful to study old masters and expressionists to help me develop my own style. This is not to say that a person with talent would not become a great artist without formal training but I have personally found it to be highly beneficial.
"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Pip" wrote in message Very interesting debate on the merits of 2 great artists. Thank you to all who have participated.

<snip>

Well that went somewher that I had not expected, I was really slating the popular mass market money making plug number industry. I guess what really irritates me is not that the Record companies do it, they wouldn’t if it was not successful, but the fact that the majority audience is so mindless that it falls for this rubbish all of the time. It makes me wonder if there was ever any point in mankind learning to pass on ideas in a symbolic form.
Gary Peach

It seems to me that high art and low both have their places. Not everyone has the benefit of education required to seriously critique and even understand the symbolism present in art.

I have had no Arts education, but not by design things in education were just differnt when I was at school and college. If I need an education to appreciate a piece of art then the artist has failed. All the opinions expressed are my own observations and thoughts on what purpose art fulfills. Certainly when I am playing with my pencils, paints and PSP I shall be conscious of anything that might have come to light in this and other discussions.

Most people just know what they like.

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know what they like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are supposed to respond, "The opiate of the masses"?

Simple paintings with cheerful looking subjects, simple music that makes them feel good.

Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we get precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?

I understand your frustration with the masses, but their naivete doesn’t make them ‘wrong’.

Just as it doesn’t make me right. 🙂

Just be glad that you ARE one of the few able to appreciate the things hidden from the majority in the symbolism in great art.

Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the abscence of a suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t to laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU appreciate it don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?

You aren’t alone either.

I am convinced of that, thank you for your support.

I imagine that more than a few of the people that post here appreciate the skill and insight shown in a wide variety of great art.

Yes I expect that they do and I would not have atempted to open this discussion if I had not thought so and hoped to get a response from as many of them as felt inclined.
More weighty matters than, ‘how do I change colours in the exchange tool’, are I feel as much a part of the use of a graphics package than the simple mechanics of the application. I’m sure that the software authors are as interested in what we use their product for as we are in having useful tools.

Even those of us who don’t are at least trying to open our minds to understanding and creating art, and this discussion is part of our ongoing life long education.

Here hear.

I also wanted to mention something regarding part of an earlier post by you:

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978" by Dali He makes this abench mark and reference to his ability as a craftsman. He painted the picture twice because the colour tone of his first rendition did not satisfy his exacting standards.

I may be mistaken, but I think he did 2 versions of this on purpose, but not for the reasons you mention.

You are most probably correct I have never had a single lesson on this topic and merely use my own powers of observation.

I don’t think the color tone was a mistake. I think these 2 images were meant to be viewed in a stereograph and the 2 slightly different hues give the image a luminosity that wouldn’t be present if they were identical. Notice the slightly different angles and you can see how they would look 3D viewed via stereograph. (sorry, I have no link to these paintings..)

I have the cat-n-dog of the Dali retrospective at the Centre Georges Pompidou 1979 – 80 Prints of this image are there.

This observation IMHO actually highlights his incredible craftmanship to a greater degree.

Yes I think that it does, certainly Picasso would not have been capable of this great skill. I wonder how easy it would be to make a single image of any subject and let PSP produce the companion image

just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach

F
fugitive
Jul 25, 2003
This seems to be a person with her head on straight.

Charlene Russ wrote:

I think that artistic education is important insofar as it helps the artist to realize his or her own creative vision. For me I have found it useful to study old masters and expressionists to help me develop my own style. This is not to say that a person with talent would not become a great artist without formal training but I have personally found it to be highly beneficial.

"Gary Peach" wrote in message

"Pip" wrote in
message
interesting debate on the merits of 2 great
artists. Thank you to all who have participated.

<snip>

Well that went somewher that I had not
expected, I was really slating the
popular mass market money making plug
number industry. I guess what really
irritates me is not that the Record
companies do it, they wouldn’t if it was
not successful, but the fact that the
majority audience is so mindless that it
falls for this rubbish all of the time.
It makes me wonder if there was ever any
point in mankind learning to pass on
ideas in a symbolic form.
Gary Peach

It seems to me that high art and low both have
their places. Not everyone has the benefit of
education required to seriously critique and even
understand the symbolism present in art. I have
had no Arts education, but not by design things in
education were just differnt when I was at school
and college. If I need an education to appreciate
a piece of art then the artist has failed. All the
opinions expressed are my own observations and
thoughts on what purpose art fulfills. Certainly
when I am playing with my pencils, paints and PSP
I shall be conscious of anything that might have
come to light in this and other discussions. Most
people just know what they like. That is exactly
what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t
know what they like" and the commercials tell them
what is good and how they are supposed to respond,
"The opiate of the masses"? Simple paintings with cheerful looking subjects, simple music that makes
them feel good. Can you give me an example of a
simple painting?Or are you refering to Christmas
card and chocolate box art, (and we get precious
little of that now); or are you thinking of
matchstick men? I understand your frustration with
the masses, but their naivete doesn’t make them
‘wrong’. Just as it doesn’t make me right. 🙂 Just
be glad that you ARE one of the few able to
appreciate the things hidden from the majority in
the symbolism in great art. Most of the masses are
just as intelligent as I.They are quite capable of
making their own observations, in the abscence of
a suitable explanation sadly I must put down the
fact that they don’t to laziness. I guess what I’m
saying to you is that there was a point – YOU
appreciate it don’t you? I’m afraid that I did
miss it, what was it? You aren’t alone either. I
am convinced of that, thank you for your
support. I imagine that more than a few of the
people that post here appreciate the skill and
insight shown in a wide variety of great art. Yes
I expect that they do and I would not have
atempted to open this discussion if I had not
thought so and hoped to get a response from as
many of them as felt inclined.More weighty matters
than, ‘how do I change colours in the exchange
tool’, are I feel as much a part of the use of a
graphics package than the simple mechanics of the
application. I’m sure that the software authors
are as interested in what we use their product for
as we are in having useful tools. Even those of us
who don’t are at least trying to open our minds to
understanding and creating art, and this
discussion is part of our ongoing life long
education. Here hear.

I also wanted to mention something regarding part
of an earlier post by you:

By comparison look at "Le Christ de Gala, 1978"
by Dali
He makes this abench mark and reference to his
ability as a craftsman.
He painted the picture twice because the colour
tone of his first rendition
did not satisfy his exacting standards.
I may be mistaken, but I think he did 2 versions
of this on purpose, but not for the reasons you
mention. You are most probably correct I have
never had a single lesson on this topic and merely
use my own powers of observation. I don’t think
the color tone was a mistake. I think these 2
images were meant to be viewed in a stereograph
and the 2 slightly different hues give the image a
luminosity that wouldn’t be present if they were
identical. Notice the slightly different angles
and you can see how they would look 3D viewed via
stereograph. (sorry, I have no link to these
paintings..) I have the cat-n-dog of the Dali
retrospective at the Centre Georges Pompidou 1979
– 80 Prints of this image are there. This
observation IMHO actually highlights his
incredible craftmanship to a greater degree. Yes I
think that it does, certainly Picasso would not
have been capable of this great skill.

I wonder how easy it would be to make a single
image of any subject and let PSP produce the
companion image

just my $.02 I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
B
BFM
Jul 25, 2003
Ok, wasn’t going to jump in, but I’m feeling I have too now. 😀

Gary:

I had a long, heated discussion with my sculpting prof. in university that had its foundation in the very discussion we are having here.

My prof. argued that everything is art. There is nothing that we can declare ‘not art’. He even went so far as to say that in certain cultures, even murder is art.

I’m not sure if this would surprise you, but this was/is actually a fairly prevalent perspective in the arts community. I have to say that I had very much the same perspective that I do believe you hold now. I argued back stating that there are actions, subjects, etc. that simply are not within the realm of art. Some subjects relate more to the intangible (i.e.. death, etc.) where the relation between art and viewer is more for information and the dissemination of truth or fact. We ‘discussed’ back and forth for at least
an 1-1/2 hr, and never really did resolve this issue ( although, I pretty much thought my sculpting mark was now in the toilet ).

This entire discussion began to make me question my own perspective on art. I still do not believe that everything is art, however, I have changed my initial understanding/subjectivity/view of what is ‘not’ art. I had a tough time in university being able to draw things that were abstract. I’m a realist, I like drawing real subjects, and to me the goal is to have the art look as much like the real thing as possible. What I found out is being able to create interesting, provocative, and appealing abstract art is just as hard as creating the ‘real’ stuff. Dali certainly was a master at infusing both aspects of fantasy and realism. His ability to simulate light, the anatomical structure of man and animal, the use of symbolism, etc. allowed for very thought provoking, and for a good part whimsical, art. Even though I agree that Dali’s talent may have been greater than Picasso (in some regards), Picasso was still able to capture the interest and imagination of millions. The years before starting university I truly could not have said that I found Picasso’s work terribly interesting. After hearing the history of his life, his approach to art, and the historical context in which he and others developed their skills, I appreciated much more both Picasso’s work and that of his contemporaries.

About a university education, all I can really say is that it opened my mind to what is artistically ‘out there’, and where others artists have been. It gave me critical thinking skills to approaching my own work, and the work of others, that I would have otherwise regarded as trash. I’m not saying education is the ‘be all and end all’, but it does offer the ability and impetus for new questions and answers. If nothing else, I think everyone should be educating themselves constantly through books, the net, whatever. I’m a firm believer that more education can’t hurt.

Ryan

"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know what
they
like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are
supposed to
respond, "The opiate of the masses"?
O.K., you may have a point about that, But I doubt that they have any concern about their being led. Maybe it’s laziness, maybe it’s just that they have little energy left in their lives to devote to the subject after putting in a hard day working. I certainly understand the lack of
enthusiasm
to study after working my 10+ hour days. OTOH I do manage to motivate
myself
for the sake of my own soul, career, and happiness to keep up my hobbies, and attempt to keep my mind active.
Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we get precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid (sp?) cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports. Not much in the way of symbolism, more ‘art as decorating accessory’ than for art’s sake. Besides, what’s wrong with Christmas card art? I make Christmas
cards
every year. 😉 I have to admit that they certainly aren’t my idea of high art, but I still get compliments and enjoy making them.
Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
Of course they are. I’m not implying stupidity, just a lack of interest.
They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the abscence
of a
suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t to laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU
appreciate it
don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?
The point is, those who do appreciate art are reason enough for art to exist. Art has no value beyond what we place on it. It isn’t useful for anything in any practical terms. That may be why people with little time
for
anything more than their own survival have such a lack of concern about
it.
just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
Yeah. I’m not sure I can spare any of the leftovers. 😉
Chuck
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 25, 2003
"David Nicholson" wrote in message
Some one got the wrong gift one year…

All together, "Ah! Shame…"

By the way one could try to enjoy the commercial holidays. All it takes is a 9 inch nail and a hammer;
inserted (nail not hammer) into the pre-frontal cortex.

Those Polacks will do anything.

By the way Santa is stuffed and hanging on my wall…

Be gently with me.

Gary Peach
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 25, 2003
"BFM" wrote in message
Ok, wasn’t going to jump in, but I’m feeling I have too now. 😀
Gary:

I had a long, heated discussion with my sculpting prof. in university that had its foundation in the very discussion we are having here.
My prof. argued that everything is art. There is nothing that we can declare ‘not art’. He even went so far as to say that in certain
cultures,
even murder is art.

If you consider that mankind as opposed to homosapiens is the intellectual manifestation of activities that record events, that abstractly and symbol;ically communicate to other members of the culture events and things, then of course everything IS art.
But the art about which we are speaking is contrived, it is a prettied up version of events and things. Unable to change the reality the artist fiddles with the communications channel.

I’m not sure if this would surprise you,

That’s pretty hard to do these days, I haven’t seen it all, but enough to be only rarely surprised.

but this was/is actually a fairly prevalent perspective in the arts
community.

Thank God we don’t depend upon those totally subsumed by this belief to keep things running. Ther are real people that actually react upon the real world not just the representations of the real world. they drive our buses and our trains; fly our planes, fix our fawcets, unplug our drains.

I have to say that I had very
much the same perspective that I do believe you hold now.

I am not sure that I have revealed sufficient of my beliefs in teh very short time that I have been posting here for you to accurately make such an assesment of my beliefs. I’m not that sure that I could precis my beliefs. I am sure that every time that I think that I have the house in order some new fact presents itself requiring a change.

I argued back
stating that there are actions, subjects, etc. that simply are not within the realm of art.

The acts may not be within the realm of art but the representation and comprehension of teh acts and things is totally within the realm of art because the representaion is capable of alteration. It is like looking at life in one of those distorting fairground mirrors. these days there are good mirrors the distortion of which may occur in real time, thus the view of reality can change instant by instant. The various artists observing the change each capture a differnt perspective according to their position relative to the distorting mirror and teh instant when they sample their impression. It is that which the artist then tries to reproduce. The artist has only changed his impression, not the reality.

Some subjects relate more to the intangible (i.e.. death, etc.) where the relation between art and viewer is more for information
and
the dissemination of truth or fact.

The truth about death lays in the medical realm, the myth and fear of the impression of death that is only in teh mind of those surviving observers is in teh uncertain realm of art. The various distortions added by each artist in agregate compound the social myths about death in particular because of the inate fear and ignorance of each member of teh society about death. Half the artist work is done for him in the fear, ignorance and superstition of teh potential audience. Monarchs and minions alike have respect for the grim reaper.

We ‘discussed’ back and forth for at least
an 1-1/2 hr, and never really did resolve this issue ( although, I pretty much thought my sculpting mark was now in the toilet ).

Golly a whole hour and a half to resolve an intellectual propostion that has puzzled mankind ever since his emergence from the cave.

This entire discussion began to make me question my own perspective on
art.

Not a complete waste of time then, I see hope rising with the morning Sun.

I still do not believe that everything is art, however, I have changed my initial understanding/subjectivity/view of what is ‘not’ art. I had a
tough
time in university being able to draw things that were abstract. I’m a realist, I like drawing real subjects, and to me the goal is to have the
art
look as much like the real thing as possible.

To expand your horizon a litte sit facing a mirror and draw what you see in teh mirro over your shoulder, but try to draw it as it is and not the reflection that you see. No cheating you are not permitted to look around. when you think that the drawing is more or less complete you may now turn around and compare what you have drawn with what you can actually see. To add a little spice choose an old imperfect mirror.
Or even try the trick of painting what you see reflected in a lamp glass or any other irregular reflecting surface. This will not give you abstraction but it is a leg up to getting the tired old wheels of the mind out of the tramlines.

What I found out is being
able to create interesting, provocative, and appealing abstract art is
just
as hard as creating the ‘real’ stuff.

If it’s any good; harder.

Dali certainly was a master at infusing both aspects of fantasy and
realism.

A state of mind. until you can get the free mind you will not create any free art.
It is in your way of life, do you drink to excess on occassion, do you take chances, do you flirt, are you conventionally dressed, do you closely conform to the requirements of society. I am not suggesting for one moment that dressing rakishly is going to transform you into a great artist, but your attitude towards these accepted social benchmarks is what inhibits your artistic thought. Rather than throw off the mores of society exagerate them, be exceptionally polite, open doors for ladies, give up your seat to ladies, stand when a lady enters the room. make a show of it. Dress neatly, ney impeccably. You are begining to distance yourself from the herd. when you have been away for long enough then you will be able to communicate with it from afar, in your own terms, you will impress your own stamp on your art. Forget the text books be your own person.

His ability to simulate light,
the anatomical structure of man and animal, the use of symbolism, etc.

Exactly teh technique, have discovered how to paint teh more important aspect faces you what to paint. But be ready have teh skills to hand that you may record the thought as closely as you can to the image, idea in your mind.

allowed for very thought provoking, and for a good part whimsical, art.

His freedom in his art was a reflection of his own freedom in life, elephants do not give birth to mice.

Even though I agree that Dali’s talent may have been greater than Picasso (in some regards), Picasso was still able to capture the interest and imagination of millions.

How much better might he have done that had he been a better technician and spent a little more time in the act of painting.

The years before starting university I truly could
not have said that I found Picasso’s work terribly interesting. After hearing the history of his life, his approach to art, and the historical context in which he and others developed their skills, I appreciated much more both Picasso’s work and that of his contemporaries.

It certainly helps to know something of your subject, however the work once it has left the artist’s brush must stand alone, it is to carry it’s message through time unaided by the intimate knowledge of teh circumstance of its creation or its creator. Imagine the situation that some art is preserved in some place and survives a great cataclysm, for those that come after what can they understand from what they see of the art, certainly more from Dali than Picasso.

About a university education, all I can really say is that it opened my
mind
to what is artistically ‘out there’, and where others artists have been.
It
gave me critical thinking skills to approaching my own work, and the work
of
others, that I would have otherwise regarded as trash. I’m not saying education is the ‘be all and end all’, but it does offer the ability and impetus for new questions and answers. If nothing else, I think everyone should be educating themselves constantly through books, the net,
whatever.
I’m a firm believer that more education can’t hurt.

Fine but I have had so many "Formally Educated" people working alongside me that when faced with a new situation their education became a straight jacket, it had not liberated the majority of them, and as for using and furthering what they had gained all that was packed away with the school books to collect dust. Very little evidence of their advantage occuring in their everyday life.

Have you inadvertently put your youthful wonder away with your text books?

Creativity is not something that can be learned, it is within all of us, from what you say here you have not found the key to unlock yours. You need a sense of excitement and adventure,
you need to enjoy yourself and to Hell with convention.

Young people are so conservative, when you get to be an old person you will realise just how much you have wasted of your life by not ceasing every opportunity especially those with a bit of risk. Risk is the signpost to the frontiers of knowledge and intellect.

Gary Peach

Ryan

"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know
what
they
like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are
supposed to
respond, "The opiate of the masses"?
O.K., you may have a point about that, But I doubt that they have any concern about their being led. Maybe it’s laziness, maybe it’s just that they have little energy left in their lives to devote to the subject
after
putting in a hard day working. I certainly understand the lack of
enthusiasm
to study after working my 10+ hour days. OTOH I do manage to motivate
myself
for the sake of my own soul, career, and happiness to keep up my
hobbies,
and attempt to keep my mind active.
Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we
get
precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid (sp?) cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports. Not much
in
the way of symbolism, more ‘art as decorating accessory’ than for art’s sake. Besides, what’s wrong with Christmas card art? I make Christmas
cards
every year. 😉 I have to admit that they certainly aren’t my idea of
high
art, but I still get compliments and enjoy making them.
Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
Of course they are. I’m not implying stupidity, just a lack of
interest.
They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the
abscence
of a
suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t to laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU
appreciate it
don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?
The point is, those who do appreciate art are reason enough for art to exist. Art has no value beyond what we place on it. It isn’t useful for anything in any practical terms. That may be why people with little time
for
anything more than their own survival have such a lack of concern about
it.
just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
Yeah. I’m not sure I can spare any of the leftovers. 😉
Chuck

CD
coverman design
Jul 25, 2003
I’ve put it on my webspace…

http://www.ilclandestino.be/bosologo.html

Greetz & thx for the feedback

il Clandestino

"Yitz" wrote in message
I really like it. I like the drop shadow depth and the pixel font.
The last guy has a red speckle on his arm…

Perhaps I would bring the top border down so the guy is half out of the
box.
But maybe the red box would be too high…

It’s good man.

Yitz
pushingtheenvelope DOT ca

"coverman design" wrote in message
Hi all,

I’ve made a new logo for the basketball-team I play for. the text under BOSO is in dutch.

What do you think of it? Shoot away…

G

GP
Gary Peach
Jul 25, 2003
Re: New Logo Design-HELP!!! (Idiots call down great artists!) "Charlene Russ" wrote in message I think that artistic education is important insofar as it helps the artist to realize his or her own creative vision.

But how many actually launch themselves into expressing that new found freedom?

For me I have found it useful to study old masters and expressionists to help me develop my own style.

Do you not find that all the clutter of other’s thoughts obstructs your freedom? original naivity is preferable to practiced unintentional plagurism.

This is not to say that a person with talent would not become a great artist

Who wants to be "great"?
just enjoy, your own pleasure will begin to show in your work. Some to be thought great cut off an ear, it didn’t improve his painting one jot, just how much would you have to cut off to become "great". May I suggest that the amputaion should start at the intellectual fetters that you permit you to be restrained by the paths already down ytrodden by an army of people searching for the illusive goal. Take it from an old croc, beware all that you may find is fools gold.

without formal training but I have personally found it to be highly beneficial.

Ye’ll tac the high road etc…

You might learn more in one night if you are able to bed one of the young masters.:)

Gary Peach

GP
Gary Peach
Jul 25, 2003
"Charlene Russ" wrote in message
Pearls like knowledge and discretion are crushed under the pigs feet.

Gadarenes?

You are truly a pearl amongst women

Gary Peach
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 25, 2003
"Charlene Russ" wrote in message
An artist, regardless of his or her medium suffers a great personal and professional loss when they undersell themselves.

When luck desserts, endurance sets the price. (sic)

Gary Peach
DN
David Nicholson
Jul 25, 2003
So is www.ratemypoo.com art then?

"BFM" wrote in message
Ok, wasn’t going to jump in, but I’m feeling I have too now. 😀
Gary:

I had a long, heated discussion with my sculpting prof. in university that had its foundation in the very discussion we are having here.
My prof. argued that everything is art. There is nothing that we can declare ‘not art’. He even went so far as to say that in certain
cultures,
even murder is art.

I’m not sure if this would surprise you, but this was/is actually a fairly prevalent perspective in the arts community. I have to say that I had
very
much the same perspective that I do believe you hold now. I argued back stating that there are actions, subjects, etc. that simply are not within the realm of art. Some subjects relate more to the intangible (i.e..
death,
etc.) where the relation between art and viewer is more for information
and
the dissemination of truth or fact. We ‘discussed’ back and forth for at least
an 1-1/2 hr, and never really did resolve this issue ( although, I pretty much thought my sculpting mark was now in the toilet ).

This entire discussion began to make me question my own perspective on
art.
I still do not believe that everything is art, however, I have changed my initial understanding/subjectivity/view of what is ‘not’ art. I had a
tough
time in university being able to draw things that were abstract. I’m a realist, I like drawing real subjects, and to me the goal is to have the
art
look as much like the real thing as possible. What I found out is being able to create interesting, provocative, and appealing abstract art is
just
as hard as creating the ‘real’ stuff. Dali certainly was a master at infusing both aspects of fantasy and realism. His ability to simulate light, the anatomical structure of man and animal, the use of symbolism, etc. allowed for very thought provoking, and for a good part whimsical,
art.
Even though I agree that Dali’s talent may have been greater than Picasso (in some regards), Picasso was still able to capture the interest and imagination of millions. The years before starting university I truly
could
not have said that I found Picasso’s work terribly interesting. After hearing the history of his life, his approach to art, and the historical context in which he and others developed their skills, I appreciated much more both Picasso’s work and that of his contemporaries.
About a university education, all I can really say is that it opened my
mind
to what is artistically ‘out there’, and where others artists have been.
It
gave me critical thinking skills to approaching my own work, and the work
of
others, that I would have otherwise regarded as trash. I’m not saying education is the ‘be all and end all’, but it does offer the ability and impetus for new questions and answers. If nothing else, I think everyone should be educating themselves constantly through books, the net,
whatever.
I’m a firm believer that more education can’t hurt.

Ryan

"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know
what
they
like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are
supposed to
respond, "The opiate of the masses"?
O.K., you may have a point about that, But I doubt that they have any concern about their being led. Maybe it’s laziness, maybe it’s just that they have little energy left in their lives to devote to the subject
after
putting in a hard day working. I certainly understand the lack of
enthusiasm
to study after working my 10+ hour days. OTOH I do manage to motivate
myself
for the sake of my own soul, career, and happiness to keep up my
hobbies,
and attempt to keep my mind active.
Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we
get
precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid (sp?) cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports. Not much
in
the way of symbolism, more ‘art as decorating accessory’ than for art’s sake. Besides, what’s wrong with Christmas card art? I make Christmas
cards
every year. 😉 I have to admit that they certainly aren’t my idea of
high
art, but I still get compliments and enjoy making them.
Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
Of course they are. I’m not implying stupidity, just a lack of
interest.
They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the
abscence
of a
suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t to laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU
appreciate it
don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?
The point is, those who do appreciate art are reason enough for art to exist. Art has no value beyond what we place on it. It isn’t useful for anything in any practical terms. That may be why people with little time
for
anything more than their own survival have such a lack of concern about
it.
just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
Yeah. I’m not sure I can spare any of the leftovers. 😉
Chuck

B
BFM
Jul 25, 2003
Tell me if I’m wrong or not, but I’m sensing some loathing to the holders of baccalaureate’s of this world. 😀

Some more tidbits below:

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"BFM" wrote in message
Ok, wasn’t going to jump in, but I’m feeling I have too now. 😀
Gary:

I had a long, heated discussion with my sculpting prof. in university
that
had its foundation in the very discussion we are having here.
My prof. argued that everything is art. There is nothing that we can declare ‘not art’. He even went so far as to say that in certain
cultures,
even murder is art.

If you consider that mankind as opposed to homosapiens is the intellectual manifestation of activities that record events, that abstractly and symbol;ically communicate to other members of the culture events and
things,
then of course everything IS art.
But the art about which we are speaking is contrived, it is a prettied up version of events and things. Unable to change the reality the artist fiddles with the communications channel.

Was the holocaust artistic? If so, how? The actual event could not be held up to something endeavouring to be ‘art’. Perhaps the images and stories of the event, but the event itself, no.

I’m not sure if this would surprise you,

That’s pretty hard to do these days, I haven’t seen it all, but enough to
be
only rarely surprised.

but this was/is actually a fairly prevalent perspective in the arts
community.

Thank God we don’t depend upon those totally subsumed by this belief to
keep
things running. Ther are real people that actually react upon the real
world
not just the representations of the real world. they drive our buses and
our
trains; fly our planes, fix our fawcets, unplug our drains.

Who created the buses, trains, planes, etc. that we use? Where was the understanding of technology derived? I conceed that certainly there are those who establish education as a form of social standing, however, there are – I believe – a greater number who educate themselves in order to offer something back to their community and the world.

I have to say that I had very
much the same perspective that I do believe you hold now.

I am not sure that I have revealed sufficient of my beliefs in teh very short time that I have been posting here for you to accurately make such
an
assesment of my beliefs. I’m not that sure that I could precis my beliefs.
I
am sure that every time that I think that I have the house in order some
new
fact presents itself requiring a change.

I stand corrected. I’m sorry to assume. We both know what that makes me. 😀

I argued back
stating that there are actions, subjects, etc. that simply are not
within
the realm of art.

The acts may not be within the realm of art but the representation and comprehension of teh acts and things is totally within the realm of art because the representaion is capable of alteration. It is like looking at life in one of those distorting fairground mirrors. these days there are good mirrors the distortion of which may occur in real time, thus the view of reality can change instant by instant. The various artists observing
the
change each capture a differnt perspective according to their position relative to the distorting mirror and teh instant when they sample their impression. It is that which the artist then tries to reproduce. The
artist
has only changed his impression, not the reality.

Agreed, but, how then can you say Picasso’s work is not artistic, or worth merit? If the alteration is subjective, your opinion, or the opinions en masse mean nothing. There are, however, works of art that are universally appealing and edifying intellectually and spiritually. Hence, there must be something that establishes a work as ‘art’, and therefore, there must be measurement/scale that is universally regarded, either implicitly or explicitly, to establish artistic merit. If a universal measurement exists, something’s must be, and must not be, ‘artistic’. Generally, Picasso’s work is highly regarded, so either your opinion is an aberration, the greater population has it all wrong, or art has no objective merit.

Some subjects relate more to the intangible (i.e.. death, etc.) where the relation between art and viewer is more for information
and
the dissemination of truth or fact.

The truth about death lays in the medical realm, the myth and fear of the impression of death that is only in teh mind of those surviving observers
is
in teh uncertain realm of art. The various distortions added by each
artist
in agregate compound the social myths about death in particular because of the inate fear and ignorance of each member of teh society about death.
Half
the artist work is done for him in the fear, ignorance and superstition of teh potential audience. Monarchs and minions alike have respect for the
grim
reaper.

We ‘discussed’ back and forth for at least
an 1-1/2 hr, and never really did resolve this issue ( although, I
pretty
much thought my sculpting mark was now in the toilet ).

Golly a whole hour and a half to resolve an intellectual propostion that
has
puzzled mankind ever since his emergence from the cave.

A lot can happen in 1-1/2 hrs, believe me.

This entire discussion began to make me question my own perspective on
art.

Not a complete waste of time then, I see hope rising with the morning Sun.
I still do not believe that everything is art, however, I have changed
my
initial understanding/subjectivity/view of what is ‘not’ art. I had a
tough
time in university being able to draw things that were abstract. I’m a realist, I like drawing real subjects, and to me the goal is to have the
art
look as much like the real thing as possible.

To expand your horizon a litte sit facing a mirror and draw what you see
in
teh mirro over your shoulder, but try to draw it as it is and not the reflection that you see. No cheating you are not permitted to look around. when you think that the drawing is more or less complete you may now turn around and compare what you have drawn with what you can actually see. To add a little spice choose an old imperfect mirror.
Or even try the trick of painting what you see reflected in a lamp glass
or
any other irregular reflecting surface. This will not give you abstraction but it is a leg up to getting the tired old wheels of the mind out of the tramlines.

We also tried the wrong hand, copying images that were blurred, not looking at the paper, drawing only portions of the whole, etc. etc..

What I found out is being
able to create interesting, provocative, and appealing abstract art is
just
as hard as creating the ‘real’ stuff.

If it’s any good; harder.

Dali certainly was a master at infusing both aspects of fantasy and
realism.

A state of mind. until you can get the free mind you will not create any free art.
It is in your way of life, do you drink to excess on occassion, do you
take
chances, do you flirt, are you conventionally dressed, do you closely conform to the requirements of society. I am not suggesting for one moment that dressing rakishly is going to transform you into a great artist, but your attitude towards these accepted social benchmarks is what inhibits
your
artistic thought. Rather than throw off the mores of society exagerate
them,
be exceptionally polite, open doors for ladies, give up your seat to
ladies,
stand when a lady enters the room. make a show of it. Dress neatly, ney impeccably. You are begining to distance yourself from the herd. when you have been away for long enough then you will be able to communicate with
it
from afar, in your own terms, you will impress your own stamp on your art. Forget the text books be your own person.

I found much the opposite with my university education. I found that the acquisition of knowledge led to more opportunities and interpretations of what I saw and experienced. For instance: Instead of merely accepting that a plane can go up and down, I now understand (to a degree) the physical dynamics of flight, the kinetic (translational, vibrational, rotational, etc.), potential (elastic, gravitational), and mechanical energy, the different and varying stresses imposed on materials etc. that are at play.

Artistically, this allows me to imagine the forces acting upon the plane and how that might be interpreted visually. It allows me more indepthly to relate with the ingenuity and ‘miracle’ of getting 70000lbs of steel to fly through the sky at 500+ mph.

His ability to simulate light,
the anatomical structure of man and animal, the use of symbolism, etc.

Exactly teh technique, have discovered how to paint teh more important aspect faces you what to paint. But be ready have teh skills to hand that you may record the thought as closely as you can to the image, idea in
your
mind.

allowed for very thought provoking, and for a good part whimsical, art.

His freedom in his art was a reflection of his own freedom in life, elephants do not give birth to mice.

Not yet, thank goodness. 😀

Even though I agree that Dali’s talent may have been greater than
Picasso
(in some regards), Picasso was still able to capture the interest and imagination of millions.

How much better might he have done that had he been a better technician
and
spent a little more time in the act of painting.

Again, is this subjectivity, or by what bar are we measuring ‘better’?

The years before starting university I truly could
not have said that I found Picasso’s work terribly interesting. After hearing the history of his life, his approach to art, and the historical context in which he and others developed their skills, I appreciated
much
more both Picasso’s work and that of his contemporaries.

It certainly helps to know something of your subject, however the work
once
it has left the artist’s brush must stand alone, it is to carry it’s
message
through time unaided by the intimate knowledge of teh circumstance of its creation or its creator. Imagine the situation that some art is preserved
in
some place and survives a great cataclysm, for those that come after what can they understand from what they see of the art, certainly more from
Dali
than Picasso.

How do you know that? Cultures interpret things differently. If not, we are then back to the assumption that there must be some universal measurement for artistic merit.

About a university education, all I can really say is that it opened my
mind
to what is artistically ‘out there’, and where others artists have been.
It
gave me critical thinking skills to approaching my own work, and the
work
of
others, that I would have otherwise regarded as trash. I’m not saying education is the ‘be all and end all’, but it does offer the ability and impetus for new questions and answers. If nothing else, I think
everyone
should be educating themselves constantly through books, the net,
whatever.
I’m a firm believer that more education can’t hurt.

Fine but I have had so many "Formally Educated" people working alongside
me
that when faced with a new situation their education became a straight jacket, it had not liberated the majority of them, and as for using and furthering what they had gained all that was packed away with the school books to collect dust. Very little evidence of their advantage occuring in their everyday life.

Have you inadvertently put your youthful wonder away with your text books?
Creativity is not something that can be learned, it is within all of us, from what you say here you have not found the key to unlock yours. You need a sense of excitement and adventure,
you need to enjoy yourself and to Hell with convention.

Here you’re assuming something of me. I’m sure if you asked many of my friends they would consider me ‘not’ normal. 😀 I don’t prescribe to many social-conventions, except those that affect my personal beliefs. Life is too short to be bound by rules dictating what is appropriate behaviour as far as it not harming oneself, or society in general. I live by the golden rule.

Young people are so conservative, when you get to be an old person you
will
realise just how much you have wasted of your life by not ceasing every opportunity especially those with a bit of risk. Risk is the signpost to
the
frontiers of knowledge and intellect.

I agree. I will say that I enjoy calculated risk, but risk none the less.

Gary Peach

Ryan

"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know
what
they
like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are
supposed to
respond, "The opiate of the masses"?
O.K., you may have a point about that, But I doubt that they have any concern about their being led. Maybe it’s laziness, maybe it’s just
that
they have little energy left in their lives to devote to the subject
after
putting in a hard day working. I certainly understand the lack of
enthusiasm
to study after working my 10+ hour days. OTOH I do manage to motivate
myself
for the sake of my own soul, career, and happiness to keep up my
hobbies,
and attempt to keep my mind active.
Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we
get
precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid
(sp?)
cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports. Not much
in
the way of symbolism, more ‘art as decorating accessory’ than for
art’s
sake. Besides, what’s wrong with Christmas card art? I make Christmas
cards
every year. 😉 I have to admit that they certainly aren’t my idea of
high
art, but I still get compliments and enjoy making them.
Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
Of course they are. I’m not implying stupidity, just a lack of
interest.
They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the
abscence
of a
suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t
to
laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU
appreciate it
don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?
The point is, those who do appreciate art are reason enough for art to exist. Art has no value beyond what we place on it. It isn’t useful
for
anything in any practical terms. That may be why people with little
time
for
anything more than their own survival have such a lack of concern
about
it.
just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
Yeah. I’m not sure I can spare any of the leftovers. 😉
Chuck

DN
David Nicholson
Jul 25, 2003
LOL

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"David Nicholson" wrote in message
Some one got the wrong gift one year…

All together, "Ah! Shame…"

By the way one could try to enjoy the commercial holidays. All it takes is a 9 inch nail and a hammer;
inserted (nail not hammer) into the pre-frontal cortex.

Those Polacks will do anything.

By the way Santa is stuffed and hanging on my wall…

Be gently with me.

Gary Peach

A
Aim
Jul 25, 2003
oh shit that’s gross

….. no pun intended

"David Nicholson" wrote in message
So is www.ratemypoo.com art then?

"BFM" wrote in message
Ok, wasn’t going to jump in, but I’m feeling I have too now. 😀
Gary:

I had a long, heated discussion with my sculpting prof. in university
that
had its foundation in the very discussion we are having here.
My prof. argued that everything is art. There is nothing that we can declare ‘not art’. He even went so far as to say that in certain
cultures,
even murder is art.

I’m not sure if this would surprise you, but this was/is actually a
fairly
prevalent perspective in the arts community. I have to say that I had
very
much the same perspective that I do believe you hold now. I argued back stating that there are actions, subjects, etc. that simply are not
within
the realm of art. Some subjects relate more to the intangible (i.e..
death,
etc.) where the relation between art and viewer is more for information
and
the dissemination of truth or fact. We ‘discussed’ back and forth for
at
least
an 1-1/2 hr, and never really did resolve this issue ( although, I
pretty
much thought my sculpting mark was now in the toilet ).

This entire discussion began to make me question my own perspective on
art.
I still do not believe that everything is art, however, I have changed
my
initial understanding/subjectivity/view of what is ‘not’ art. I had a
tough
time in university being able to draw things that were abstract. I’m a realist, I like drawing real subjects, and to me the goal is to have the
art
look as much like the real thing as possible. What I found out is being able to create interesting, provocative, and appealing abstract art is
just
as hard as creating the ‘real’ stuff. Dali certainly was a master at infusing both aspects of fantasy and realism. His ability to simulate light, the anatomical structure of man and animal, the use of symbolism, etc. allowed for very thought provoking, and for a good part whimsical,
art.
Even though I agree that Dali’s talent may have been greater than
Picasso
(in some regards), Picasso was still able to capture the interest and imagination of millions. The years before starting university I truly
could
not have said that I found Picasso’s work terribly interesting. After hearing the history of his life, his approach to art, and the historical context in which he and others developed their skills, I appreciated
much
more both Picasso’s work and that of his contemporaries.
About a university education, all I can really say is that it opened my
mind
to what is artistically ‘out there’, and where others artists have been.
It
gave me critical thinking skills to approaching my own work, and the
work
of
others, that I would have otherwise regarded as trash. I’m not saying education is the ‘be all and end all’, but it does offer the ability and impetus for new questions and answers. If nothing else, I think
everyone
should be educating themselves constantly through books, the net,
whatever.
I’m a firm believer that more education can’t hurt.

Ryan

"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t know
what
they
like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are
supposed to
respond, "The opiate of the masses"?
O.K., you may have a point about that, But I doubt that they have any concern about their being led. Maybe it’s laziness, maybe it’s just
that
they have little energy left in their lives to devote to the subject
after
putting in a hard day working. I certainly understand the lack of
enthusiasm
to study after working my 10+ hour days. OTOH I do manage to motivate
myself
for the sake of my own soul, career, and happiness to keep up my
hobbies,
and attempt to keep my mind active.
Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and we
get
precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick men?
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid
(sp?)
cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports. Not much
in
the way of symbolism, more ‘art as decorating accessory’ than for
art’s
sake. Besides, what’s wrong with Christmas card art? I make Christmas
cards
every year. 😉 I have to admit that they certainly aren’t my idea of
high
art, but I still get compliments and enjoy making them.
Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
Of course they are. I’m not implying stupidity, just a lack of
interest.
They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the
abscence
of a
suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they don’t
to
laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU
appreciate it
don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?
The point is, those who do appreciate art are reason enough for art to exist. Art has no value beyond what we place on it. It isn’t useful
for
anything in any practical terms. That may be why people with little
time
for
anything more than their own survival have such a lack of concern
about
it.
just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
Yeah. I’m not sure I can spare any of the leftovers. 😉
Chuck

P
Pip
Jul 25, 2003
From: "Gary Peach"

Obviously, they are as happy as the proverbial butcher’s dog and about as intelligent.
That sounds terribly arrogant, probably because it is, I just want to shake them and say use the brains that you were given, life will shortly be past and you will have missed the opportunity.
Then again, sitting on a beach like a seal and eating fish all day could be a nice life too. Brains are overrated.
Golly how do you get away with such a short working day?
I’ve slept with the right people. 😉
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid (sp?)

Jamaica?
I think that’s an artist I’ve seen in the mall… it’s possible that I’ve totally mangled his name. His work looks nice, but it’s all the same and basically just mass produced fluff.
cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports.

I am unfamiliar with Peir One, is this some form of store like Walmart?
Not Walmart. More like importers of ‘exotic’ mass produced furnishings, decorator items, knick knacks…it can actually be a fun store to shop.
In colours to match the curtains?
of course, with matching print towels as well.
Next year, (perhaps this), give a thought to Santa :-
AN ANALYSIS OF SANTA’S GIFT SERVICE
<snipped funny Christmas story>
I’ve seen that… forgot where though.
This year if you are still fishing for compliments why not try an Inuit sitting by his hole in the ice with Santa bringing him his Christmas present, "a mirror.
An anagram of ‘Santa’ is ‘Satan’; the mirror can reflect a rear view of Santa with his costume cut away to reveal his scaley tail and firy breath. All is to be drawn on PSP.
Sadly, I don’t have PSP…. The theme might fit my usual christmas themes though. Admittedly a little darker than usual.
One day, when it is too late, they’ll all regret that individually.
Doubtful. I don’t think most care enough for regrets.
The size of the potential market does little for the price to the living artist. 🙁
LOL. Whatcha gonna do ’bout that? C’est la vie. You could have chosen to work at a bank.
True, but softly, if the masses hear that then that is exactly what they will be prepared to pay for it.
Thank God no one is listening to me then!
I had a big book that under one leg of the table just made it level, and an old painting that blocked the hole in the window excluding the draught.
I stand corrected. That’s a very practical use.
Should we be concerned about art?
On the other hand, art could be the only worthwhile thing in the whole of the universe.
For some it is.
Do you have pudding or dessert?

Gary Peach
Isn’t pudding a dessert? My fave is chocolate. Come on over, I have plenty of leftovers!

Chuck
HE
Hunter Elliott
Jul 25, 2003
"David Nicholson" wrote in message
So is www.ratemypoo.com art then?

Gilbert & George are two artists in Britan where much of their art is "poo"-related.
http://www.newmediastudies.com/art/gilbert.htm
http://www.artandculture.com/arts/artist?artistId=897
"Their message is explicit: ‘We want to spill our blood, brains, and seed in our life-search for new meaning and purpose to give to life.’ Although it’s difficult to say what this new meaning might be, it’s clear that Gilbert & George think they can find it in bodily substances. Shit, piss, blood, urine, semen, tears — anything the body secretes or excretes."
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 25, 2003
"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"
a nice life too. Brains are overrated.

I’ll eat liver but brains turn me off, except when I needed them for teh lab.

Golly how do you get away with such a short working day?
I’ve slept with the right people. 😉

Has she got a rich friend for me?

That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid
(sp?)
Jamaica?
I think that’s an artist I’ve seen in the mall… it’s possible that I’ve totally mangled his name. His work looks nice, but it’s all the same and basically just mass produced fluff.

Commercial, a man has to live, could be a woman with a nom de brush.

cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports.

I am unfamiliar with Peir One, is this some form of store like Walmart?
Not Walmart. More like importers of ‘exotic’ mass produced furnishings,

Made in the third world by slaves.

decorator items, knick knacks…it can actually be a fun store to shop.

We have one or two shops that are fun,
one sells nothing but materials to make leaded lights.

In colours to match the curtains?
of course, with matching print towels as well.

I like the one that explains Cricket.

Next year, (perhaps this), give a thought to Santa :-
AN ANALYSIS OF SANTA’S GIFT SERVICE
<snipped funny Christmas story>
I’ve seen that… forgot where though.

Probably a Mensa group …

This year if you are still fishing for compliments why not try an Inuit sitting by his hole in the ice with Santa bringing him his Christmas present, "a mirror.
An anagram of ‘Santa’ is ‘Satan’; the mirror can reflect a rear view of Santa with his costume cut away to reveal his scaley tail and firy
breath.
All is to be drawn on PSP.
Sadly, I don’t have PSP…. The theme might fit my usual christmas themes though. Admittedly a little darker than usual.

So what do you use?
Ah! I just noticed someone turned this into a cross-post.

One day, when it is too late, they’ll all regret that individually.

Doubtful. I don’t think most care enough for regrets.

There’s enough wailing and moaning to challenge that thought.

The size of the potential market does little for the price to the living artist. 🙁
LOL. Whatcha gonna do ’bout that? C’est la vie.
You could have chosen to work at a bank.

I gave up work in 1985.
But when I did work I did things much more exciting than that. I didn’t make any money but I saw a lot of the world, had some fun and I think contributed some things that will continue to benefit mankind long after I’m dead.
One contribution has improved the medical condition of over a million people by now I should think, saved a few tens of thousands of lives too I shouldn’t wonder.
I think there isn’t a Guinness Book of Records in that area. I suppose in a universe scale that’s insignificant, but it makes me feel good to think that I didn’t pass this way and leave it completely unchanged.

True, but softly, if the masses hear that then that is exactly what they will be prepared to pay for it.
Thank God no one is listening to me then!

Or me.
In the land of the blind hearing becomes acute, so keep your voice down.

I had a big book that under one leg of the table just made it level, and
an
old painting that blocked the hole in the window excluding the draught.

I stand corrected. That’s a very practical use.

There are few absolutes. 🙂

Should we be concerned about art?
On the other hand, art could be the only worthwhile thing in the whole
of
the universe.

For some it is.

That view is as narrow as those that have never heard of art.

Do you have pudding or dessert?
Isn’t pudding a dessert?

Nop

My fave is chocolate.
Come on over, I have plenty of leftovers!

Another damned chocoholic, have you been to a meeting lately?

Give me some co-ordinates and I’ll be with you in a flash.

Gary Peach
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 25, 2003
"BFM" wrote in message
Tell me if I’m wrong or not, but I’m sensing some loathing to the holders
of
baccalaureate’s of this world. 😀

You are wrong, my angst is not directed at them, but their damned laziness at never doing anything intellectually challenging once they complete. It is not supposed to be a damned sausage machine.

Some more tidbits below:

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"BFM" wrote in message
Ok, wasn’t going to jump in, but I’m feeling I have too now. 😀
Gary:

I had a long, heated discussion with my sculpting prof. in university that had its foundation in the very discussion we are having here.
My prof. argued that everything is art. There is nothing that we can declare ‘not art’. He even went so far as to say that in certain cultures, even murder is art.

If you consider that mankind as opposed to homosapiens is the
intellectual
manifestation of activities that record events, that abstractly and symbolically communicate to other members of the culture events and things, then of course everything IS art.
But the art about which we are speaking is contrived, it is a prettied
up
version of events and things. Unable to change the reality the artist fiddles with the communications channel.

Was the holocaust artistic?

Lord no, if you have looked at the bills for teh ovens and teh submitted plans for the designs etc. you’l know that it was very crass. However much art has been expended on it, mostly critical, much of it designed as cautionary tales to warn mankind not to repeat it.

If so, how?

N/A

The actual event could not be held up to something endeavouring to be
‘art’.

The art of genocide.
If you read the record of events leading up to it you will see that the NAZIs were despeart to exterminate people and they could not do so fast enough, several different methods were tried; all of them beastial.

Perhaps the images and stories of the event, but the event itself, no.

That is the point that I was atempting to make.

Have you seen the film "10 Rillington Place"?

I’m not sure if this would surprise you,

That’s pretty hard to do these days, I haven’t seen it all, but enough
to
be only rarely surprised.

but this was/is actually a fairly prevalent perspective in the arts
community.

Thank God we don’t depend upon those totally subsumed by this belief to keep things running. There are real people that actually react upon the
real
world not just the representations of the real world. they drive our
buses and
our trains; fly our planes, fix our fawcets, unplug our drains.

Who created the buses, trains, planes, etc. that we use?

Not artists that’s for sure, we’d stiull be waiting if that were the case.

Where was the understanding of technology derived?

It is a process dispersed in time, one can not point as some definite event that formed universal technology. The biggest leap in technology was the application of mathematics, specifically Algebra, for that we must thanlk the tent making, Arab Astronomer Poet, Omar Khayyam.

I conceed that certainly there are
those who establish education as a form of social standing, however, there are – I believe – a greater number who educate themselves in order to
offer
something back to their community and the world.

The autodidact are a breed that inovate.
The eclectic autodidact is often refered to as genius.

I have to say that I had very
much the same perspective that I do believe you hold now.

I am not sure that I have revealed sufficient of my beliefs in teh very short time that I have been posting here for you to accurately make such
an
assesment of my beliefs. I’m not that sure that I could precis my
beliefs.
I
am sure that every time that I think that I have the house in order some
new
fact presents itself requiring a change.

I stand corrected. I’m sorry to assume. We both know what that makes me.

Up periscope.

😀

Gary Peach
I argued back
stating that there are actions, subjects, etc. that simply are not
within
the realm of art.

The acts may not be within the realm of art but the representation and comprehension of teh acts and things is totally within the realm of art because the representaion is capable of alteration. It is like looking
at
life in one of those distorting fairground mirrors. these days there are good mirrors the distortion of which may occur in real time, thus the
view
of reality can change instant by instant. The various artists observing
the
change each capture a differnt perspective according to their position relative to the distorting mirror and teh instant when they sample their impression. It is that which the artist then tries to reproduce. The
artist
has only changed his impression, not the reality.

Agreed, but, how then can you say Picasso’s work is not artistic, or worth merit? If the alteration is subjective, your opinion, or the opinions en masse mean nothing. There are, however, works of art that are universally appealing and edifying intellectually and spiritually. Hence, there must
be
something that establishes a work as ‘art’, and therefore, there must be measurement/scale that is universally regarded, either implicitly or explicitly, to establish artistic merit. If a universal measurement
exists,
something’s must be, and must not be, ‘artistic’. Generally, Picasso’s
work
is highly regarded, so either your opinion is an aberration, the greater population has it all wrong, or art has no objective merit.

Some subjects relate more to the intangible (i.e.. death, etc.) where the relation between art and viewer is more for
information
and
the dissemination of truth or fact.

The truth about death lays in the medical realm, the myth and fear of
the
impression of death that is only in teh mind of those surviving
observers
is
in teh uncertain realm of art. The various distortions added by each
artist
in agregate compound the social myths about death in particular because
of
the inate fear and ignorance of each member of teh society about death.
Half
the artist work is done for him in the fear, ignorance and superstition
of
teh potential audience. Monarchs and minions alike have respect for the
grim
reaper.

We ‘discussed’ back and forth for at least
an 1-1/2 hr, and never really did resolve this issue ( although, I
pretty
much thought my sculpting mark was now in the toilet ).

Golly a whole hour and a half to resolve an intellectual propostion that
has
puzzled mankind ever since his emergence from the cave.

A lot can happen in 1-1/2 hrs, believe me.

This entire discussion began to make me question my own perspective on
art.

Not a complete waste of time then, I see hope rising with the morning
Sun.
I still do not believe that everything is art, however, I have changed
my
initial understanding/subjectivity/view of what is ‘not’ art. I had a
tough
time in university being able to draw things that were abstract. I’m
a
realist, I like drawing real subjects, and to me the goal is to have
the
art
look as much like the real thing as possible.

To expand your horizon a litte sit facing a mirror and draw what you see
in
teh mirro over your shoulder, but try to draw it as it is and not the reflection that you see. No cheating you are not permitted to look
around.
when you think that the drawing is more or less complete you may now
turn
around and compare what you have drawn with what you can actually see.
To
add a little spice choose an old imperfect mirror.
Or even try the trick of painting what you see reflected in a lamp glass
or
any other irregular reflecting surface. This will not give you
abstraction
but it is a leg up to getting the tired old wheels of the mind out of
the
tramlines.

We also tried the wrong hand, copying images that were blurred, not
looking
at the paper, drawing only portions of the whole, etc. etc..

What I found out is being
able to create interesting, provocative, and appealing abstract art is
just
as hard as creating the ‘real’ stuff.

If it’s any good; harder.

Dali certainly was a master at infusing both aspects of fantasy and
realism.

A state of mind. until you can get the free mind you will not create any free art.
It is in your way of life, do you drink to excess on occassion, do you
take
chances, do you flirt, are you conventionally dressed, do you closely conform to the requirements of society. I am not suggesting for one
moment
that dressing rakishly is going to transform you into a great artist,
but
your attitude towards these accepted social benchmarks is what inhibits
your
artistic thought. Rather than throw off the mores of society exagerate
them,
be exceptionally polite, open doors for ladies, give up your seat to
ladies,
stand when a lady enters the room. make a show of it. Dress neatly, ney impeccably. You are begining to distance yourself from the herd. when
you
have been away for long enough then you will be able to communicate with
it
from afar, in your own terms, you will impress your own stamp on your
art.
Forget the text books be your own person.

I found much the opposite with my university education. I found that the acquisition of knowledge led to more opportunities and interpretations of what I saw and experienced. For instance: Instead of merely accepting
that
a plane can go up and down, I now understand (to a degree) the physical dynamics of flight, the kinetic (translational, vibrational, rotational, etc.), potential (elastic, gravitational), and mechanical energy, the different and varying stresses imposed on materials etc. that are at play.
Artistically, this allows me to imagine the forces acting upon the plane
and
how that might be interpreted visually. It allows me more indepthly to relate with the ingenuity and ‘miracle’ of getting 70000lbs of steel to
fly
through the sky at 500+ mph.

His ability to simulate light,
the anatomical structure of man and animal, the use of symbolism, etc.

Exactly teh technique, have discovered how to paint teh more important aspect faces you what to paint. But be ready have teh skills to hand
that
you may record the thought as closely as you can to the image, idea in
your
mind.

allowed for very thought provoking, and for a good part whimsical, art.

His freedom in his art was a reflection of his own freedom in life, elephants do not give birth to mice.

Not yet, thank goodness. 😀

Even though I agree that Dali’s talent may have been greater than
Picasso
(in some regards), Picasso was still able to capture the interest and imagination of millions.

How much better might he have done that had he been a better technician
and
spent a little more time in the act of painting.

Again, is this subjectivity, or by what bar are we measuring ‘better’?

The years before starting university I truly could
not have said that I found Picasso’s work terribly interesting. After hearing the history of his life, his approach to art, and the
historical
context in which he and others developed their skills, I appreciated
much
more both Picasso’s work and that of his contemporaries.

It certainly helps to know something of your subject, however the work
once
it has left the artist’s brush must stand alone, it is to carry it’s
message
through time unaided by the intimate knowledge of teh circumstance of
its
creation or its creator. Imagine the situation that some art is
preserved
in
some place and survives a great cataclysm, for those that come after
what
can they understand from what they see of the art, certainly more from
Dali
than Picasso.

How do you know that? Cultures interpret things differently. If not, we are then back to the assumption that there must be some universal measurement for artistic merit.

About a university education, all I can really say is that it opened
my
mind
to what is artistically ‘out there’, and where others artists have
been.
It
gave me critical thinking skills to approaching my own work, and the
work
of
others, that I would have otherwise regarded as trash. I’m not saying education is the ‘be all and end all’, but it does offer the ability
and
impetus for new questions and answers. If nothing else, I think
everyone
should be educating themselves constantly through books, the net,
whatever.
I’m a firm believer that more education can’t hurt.

Fine but I have had so many "Formally Educated" people working alongside
me
that when faced with a new situation their education became a straight jacket, it had not liberated the majority of them, and as for using and furthering what they had gained all that was packed away with the school books to collect dust. Very little evidence of their advantage occuring
in
their everyday life.

Have you inadvertently put your youthful wonder away with your text
books?
Creativity is not something that can be learned, it is within all of us, from what you say here you have not found the key to unlock yours. You need a sense of excitement and adventure,
you need to enjoy yourself and to Hell with convention.

Here you’re assuming something of me. I’m sure if you asked many of my friends they would consider me ‘not’ normal. 😀 I don’t prescribe to many social-conventions, except those that affect my personal beliefs. Life is too short to be bound by rules dictating what is appropriate behaviour as far as it not harming oneself, or society in general. I live by the
golden
rule.

Young people are so conservative, when you get to be an old person you
will
realise just how much you have wasted of your life by not ceasing every opportunity especially those with a bit of risk. Risk is the signpost to
the
frontiers of knowledge and intellect.

I agree. I will say that I enjoy calculated risk, but risk none the less.

Gary Peach

Ryan

"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"

<snip>

That is exactly what I’m complaining about, "most people don’t
know
what
they
like" and the commercials tell them what is good and how they are
supposed to
respond, "The opiate of the masses"?
O.K., you may have a point about that, But I doubt that they have
any
concern about their being led. Maybe it’s laziness, maybe it’s just
that
they have little energy left in their lives to devote to the subject
after
putting in a hard day working. I certainly understand the lack of
enthusiasm
to study after working my 10+ hour days. OTOH I do manage to
motivate
myself
for the sake of my own soul, career, and happiness to keep up my
hobbies,
and attempt to keep my mind active.
Can you give me an example of a simple painting?
Or are you refering to Christmas card and chocolate box art, (and
we
get
precious little of that now); or are you thinking of matchstick
men?
That’s a hard one… I guess I’m thinking of mass produced Kincaid
(sp?)
cottages or the art you see on the walls at Pier One Imports. Not
much
in
the way of symbolism, more ‘art as decorating accessory’ than for
art’s
sake. Besides, what’s wrong with Christmas card art? I make
Christmas
cards
every year. 😉 I have to admit that they certainly aren’t my idea
of
high
art, but I still get compliments and enjoy making them.
Most of the masses are just as intelligent as I.
Of course they are. I’m not implying stupidity, just a lack of
interest.
They are quite capable of making their own observations, in the
abscence
of a
suitable explanation sadly I must put down the fact that they
don’t
to
laziness.

I guess what I’m saying to you is that there was a point – YOU
appreciate it
don’t you?

I’m afraid that I did miss it, what was it?
The point is, those who do appreciate art are reason enough for art
to
exist. Art has no value beyond what we place on it. It isn’t useful
for
anything in any practical terms. That may be why people with little
time
for
anything more than their own survival have such a lack of concern
about
it.
just my $.02

I suppose you want change Chuck :?o

Gary Peach
Yeah. I’m not sure I can spare any of the leftovers. 😉
Chuck

P
Pip
Jul 25, 2003
From: "Gary Peach"

I’ll eat liver but brains turn me off, except when I needed them for teh lab.
o.k. this is just getting silly now. 😉
Has she got a rich friend for me?
How do you know it’s a she?
Made in the third world by slaves.
A whole nuther can o’worms…
So what do you use?
*gasp* a Bristol pad, some water color paints and a black markerfor the covers usually. Illustrator for my logo on the back and QXP for making them 2-up and adding any type for the inside.
Ah! I just noticed someone turned this into a cross-post.
I noticed that too. Is it bad form to continue it?
There’s enough wailing and moaning to challenge that thought.
There’s always a lot of that. Maybe my earlier position needs a rethink.
I gave up work in 1985.
But when I did work I did things much more exciting than that.
Such as?
I didn’t make any money but I saw a lot of the world, had some fun and I think contributed some things that will continue to benefit mankind long after I’m dead.
Military? Merchant marine? Travel and contriibute to mankind..? Peace Corps? Priesthood?
One contribution has improved the medical condition of over a million people by now I should think, saved a few tens of thousands of lives too I shouldn’t wonder.
I think there isn’t a Guinness Book of Records in that area. I suppose in a universe scale that’s insignificant, but it makes me feel good to think that I didn’t pass this way and leave it completely unchanged.
It’s a lot more than I can lay claim to. I’m actually trying to pass with out any ripples.
There are few absolutes. 🙂
That’s always true… or is it never wrong…
Another damned chocoholic, have you been to a meeting lately?
Why, do they have chocolate?
Give me some co-ordinates and I’ll be with you in a flash.
Gary Peach
I thought flash was losing it’s popularity here…

Chuck
H
Hecate
Jul 25, 2003
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:45:00 +0000 (UTC), "Gary Peach" wrote:

If you consider that mankind as opposed to homosapiens is the intellectual manifestation of activities that record events, that abstractly and symbol;ically communicate to other members of the culture events and things, then of course everything IS art.

Mankind *is* Homo sapiens. Homo sapiens sapiens to be precise. As is womankind of course.



Hecate
(Fried computers a specialty)
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 26, 2003
"Charlene Russ" wrote in message
Oh he definitely could draw,

Look again

he started drawing realistically at the ripe old age of 6 years!

by 17 he hadn’t improved much; he wouldn’t have passed his ‘A’-level Art.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he was an uncommon genius,

uncommon maybe, ‘genius’ is open to debate, convince me.

full of innovation and fresh ideas.

Some of those "fresh" ideas he commited to the record

As for his
eccentricities and ‘character flaws’ I don’t doubt those either, but maybe that was part of what made him so good.

I was only discussing his technical ability, to enter the character of the man you will have to educate me, please.

Like many true geniuses his ideas were not easily understood by the ignorant and some of the poorly educated.

That must include me then,
I certainly dispute the sobriquet ‘genius’ when applied to Picasso.

As is the case with many artists, I believe he found himself immersed in
his
own unique vision unfazed by popularity or by social acceptance.

For that he gets a browniue point in my record.
However, if an artist is to communicate he/she should not loose the common touch.

Creative artists are not copiers, xerox machines, or computers; they translate ideas using desired mediums and explore new vistas.

Hopefully they do more than "translate".

Many of them use their artistic vision to transform reality, escape reality, or portray reality in its most painful,
vulgar and carnalistic existence.

Oh! dear he may have been saved from that had he taken his Lithium daily.

The fact
that his work resembled those of the Old Masters by the age of 17 speaks volumes regarding his true level of ability.

I maintain that he could not draw and had no sense of proportion or perspective, that is why the great body of his work is flat and symbolic. Had he been an author his dyslexia would have been obvious.

Thank you for sharing these links, they are appreciated,

Yes thank you

Gary Peach
-Charlene Russ
Creative Animation
http://www.eclecticacademy.com

"BFM" wrote in message
Here, now you don’t have to search for the images:

http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-04.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1897/opp97-01.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-33.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-14.html
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/works/1895/opp95-15.html
… there are more.

So, what you’re saying is, that by the age of 17, you were able to paint like the paintings he did above?

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"BFM" wrote in message
I remember sitting in my Arts History class in University and
thinking
the
same things as you, but I was proved wrong.

I’m here for edification and education, please enlighten me; perhaps I
have
been guilty of maligning the man when he is not able to defend
himself.
Picasso, was an incredibly gifted painter. His work was compared to
some
of
the Baroque-Period masters (e.g. Titian, Bellini, Caravaggio, etc.).

By whom, did she put her white stick down to examine the works?
We
always compare Picasso’s works with distorted forms and shapes, but
that
style of painting didn’t come along till later in his life.

To conceal his poor craftsmanship,
on the art front he pulled off the biggest con job going.
When Picasso was a young painter he decided that he wanted to do
something
‘unique’.

Don’t we all, then the realities of life rush in upon us.
A current style/genre that had been forming in Europe was called ‘Modernism’, so he started experimenting with the pre-emanate genre
of
the
time. He came up with what he called ‘cubism’.

I suppose that makes his clients complete three dimensional squares.
🙂
It pretty much went on from there.

Dali had similar ideas of artistic freedom, he learned to draw and
paint
properly before he engaged in his aims. At least with Dali you know
that
when you are looking at something that is what he intended. With
Picasso
the
brush might have slipped.
As far as I can see, Picasso’s merit is the fact that as a Communist
he
survived WWII in a Fascist regime. For that I admire him, for his
political
statements in the face of danger, I admire him when I consider what it
may
have cost him. But as a craftsman I have seen no evidence of his
ability.
To say that he couldn’t draw, had no idea of perspective, and was
not
proportionate, is inaccurate.

I have been messing around with some of his images that are supposed
to
be
representational, in particular "The Artist and his Model (1914)" Neither the artist or the model are proportionate, in fact I would say
that
she is positively grotesque; for starters her legs are far too short compared to the body length. Closer examination reveals that no care
at
all
has been taken in setting out the proportions of either figure.
Here’s a site with a history and examples of his early work, and
later
modernist paintings:
http://www.tamu.edu/mocl/picasso/

Thank you When I have a moment I’ll visit this site.

Gary Peach

"Gary Peach" wrote in message
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/21/03 7:40 PM, in article
Iu1Ta.66023$,
"ben-dover"
<http://www.gilligan@theisle> wrote:

Picasso probably
could’ve taken a dump on a sheet of masonite and sold it for
thousands
but
could he have lived with himself and what would that have done
for
his
reputation in the long run?

What’s all the fuss about him he couldn’t draw, had no idea of
perspective
and couldn’t get the proportions of the body right, he was a poor
craftsman.
GaryPeach

DN
David Nicholson
Jul 26, 2003
Great words to use… LOL… yah it is very sick… the worst thing is, that people spend a lot of time going threw the images and rating them! Talk about needing a life (goes for the person that sent me the link)…

DSN

"Aim" wrote in message
oh shit that’s gross

…. no pun intended
<snip>
DN
David Nicholson
Jul 26, 2003
Sadly I know of them… But if the message is that they want to be outcast in all ways, and go for attention threw gross behavior, then they are doing fine. But saying that, I do think art is subjective and can mean anything to anyone. It is just that to me this is not art.

They can play in their own droppings, but I do not wish to. Although it gives new meaning to the phrase "fill your boots".

DSN

"Hunter Elliott" wrote in message
"David Nicholson" wrote in message
So is www.ratemypoo.com art then?

Gilbert & George are two artists in Britan where much of their art is "poo"-related.
http://www.newmediastudies.com/art/gilbert.htm
http://www.artandculture.com/arts/artist?artistId=897
"Their message is explicit: ‘We want to spill our blood, brains, and seed
in
our life-search for new meaning and purpose to give to life.’ Although
it’s
difficult to say what this new meaning might be, it’s clear that Gilbert & George think they can find it in bodily substances. Shit, piss, blood, urine, semen, tears — anything the body secretes or excretes."
GD
Gary Dickson
Jul 26, 2003
On 7/25/03 10:32 AM, in article bfrpjr$b6r$, "Gary
Peach" wrote:

Who created the buses, trains, planes, etc. that we use?

Not artists that’s for sure, we’d stiull be waiting if that were the case.

Not true — see Raymond Lowey — just to mention one (of many) of the greatest industrial/product designers (artists? Yes-IMO) of the 20th century.

Gary D.
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 26, 2003
"Pip" wrote in message
From: "Gary Peach"
Made in the third world by slaves.
A whole nuther can o’worms…

Yes have you heard about the boycott on Nestles over their baby milk in Africa?

So what do you use?
*gasp* a Bristol pad, some water color paints and a black markerfor the covers usually.

Still naturally reach for a pencil, just like me.
I do a rough layout with pencil, probably sat if front of teh telly. Then scan it in for lay out, build up in computer graphics from there in. I find that layout come far more naturally with a pencil or brush than a mouse.

Illustrator for my logo on the back and QXP for making them 2-up and adding any type for the inside.

Have you tried Ms Publisher for this part of the task?

Ah! I just noticed someone turned this into a cross-post.
I noticed that too. Is it bad form to continue it?

No, provide the contributions are pertinent, I don’t mind who joins in.

There’s enough wailing and moaning to challenge that thought.
There’s always a lot of that. Maybe my earlier position needs a rethink.

I’m always revising my own thoughts, nothing is ever set in concrete for me, I’ve been wrong too often to become conceited enough to think that I have all the answers.

I gave up work in 1985.
But when I did work I did things much more exciting than that.
Such as?

RAF RADAR
Microwave Stuff that would bore the pants of most but I love it, you’ve no idea where that stuff can take you. I was designing instruments for a few years in teh UK and doing Radoms for aircraft and rockets in teh UK. then I went to Australia did some bush Radio survey works which was quite thrilling sitting on top of a 5,000 foot mountain with bush fires burning all around. Then I joined a company contracting top NASA and participted in Mariner IV whicg took the very first close photographs of Mars, all the soft land on teh moon and Apollo Mission from go to wo. Pioneer whgich went out of the solar system after visiting some of teh big planets on teh way out. Then I returned to teh Uk and was designing a CAT scanner with EMI. when that went to teh USA I went into industrial nuclear gauging and control. This took me globe trotting in a consultant capacity, saw a bit of night life and soem very interesting industrial plant, again a turn off for most, but thrilling stuff when you realise just how intimately that affects the daily life of just about everyone in our modern society. A spell with CalComp, I think That I’m still on their books as a consultant. That wasn’t so thrilling but it was personally satisfying, specially playing with those big plotters. Got a chance to play with one that had a big granite bed that was bigger than a full sized billiard table. That one was used to make teh original masters for printing currency notes and security stuff. for it’s time high precision driven by pneumatics. You could draw a full sized poster on that thing if you wanted.
I have a damaged beam off one of those at home which I use as a very large straight edge; it cost over $10,000 to make.

I didn’t make any money but I saw a lot of the world, had some fun and I think contributed some things that will continue to benefit mankind long after I’m dead.
Military?

Medical and Industrial.

Merchant marine? Travel and contriibute to mankind..? Peace Corps? Priesthood?

Now that could be a way to occupy my closing years, "Bless you my Son."

One contribution has improved the medical condition of over a million
people
by now I should think, saved a few tens of thousands of lives too I shouldn’t wonder.
I think there isn’t a Guinness Book of Records in that area. I suppose in a universe scale that’s insignificant, but it makes me feel good to think that I didn’t pass this way and leave it completely
unchanged.
It’s a lot more than I can lay claim to.
I’m actually trying to pass with out any ripples.

You know young people are very conservative and cautious, few grasp life by the throat and live it. They get into such a bad habit that they never break out of it.
Take a chance do something risky and radical, you’ll never regret it even if it doesn’t pan out the way you think.

There are few absolutes. 🙂
That’s always true… or is it never wrong…

|… Optimist/pessimist tautology ad infinitem …|
^__________________________________v

Another damned chocoholic, have you been to a meeting lately?
Why, do they have chocolate?

Never you mind, just keep taking the pills…

Give me some co-ordinates and I’ll be with you in a flash.
I thought flash was losing it’s popularity here…

flash or FLASH?
I suppose with the advent of the digital camera it is only a matter of time before we have laser scanners available on teh domestic market, no flash required.

Gary Peach
GP
Gary Peach
Jul 26, 2003
"Gary Dickson" wrote in message
On 7/25/03 10:32 AM, in article bfrpjr$b6r$, "Gary
Peach" wrote:

Who created the buses, trains, planes, etc. that we use?

Not artists that’s for sure, we’d stiull be waiting if that were the
case.
Not true — see Raymond Lowey — just to mention one (of many) of the greatest industrial/product designers (artists? Yes-IMO) of the 20th century.

In that case why is so much technology ugly?
Can you imagine what cars would look like if the marketing people didn’t believe that shape sells product?

I suppose there is an excellent precedent in Leonardo, he was a polymath and a damned good artist. Some of his machines are at last being made and tried out.
One of his most brilliant designs is the mechanism that takes up the thread on a spinning machine, extremely clever, Runs at two speeds with a single belt drive.

Gary Peach
P
Pip
Jul 28, 2003
From: "Gary Peach"

Yes have you heard about the boycott on Nestles over their baby milk in Africa?
Just in passing… although I have been aware of some controversy around canned baby milk for several years.
Have you tried Ms Publisher for this part of the task?
No. I use QXP all day for my job, so it’s a natural to use for anything else. I have been playing with Indesign though, and I really like it.
I’m always revising my own thoughts, nothing is ever set in concrete for me, I’ve been wrong too often to become conceited enough to think that I have all the answers.
I have to agree with that. Either I’m open minded or just confused. I change my mind about things quite often.
RAF RADAR
Microwave Stuff that would bore the pants of most but I love it, you’ve no idea where that stuff can take you. I was designing instruments for a few years in teh UK and doing Radoms for aircraft and rockets in teh UK. then I went to Australia did some bush Radio survey works which was quite thrilling sitting on top of a 5,000 foot mountain with bush fires burning all around. Then I joined a company contracting top NASA and participted in Mariner IV whicg took the very first close photographs of Mars, all the soft land on teh moon and Apollo Mission from go to wo. Pioneer whgich went out of the solar system after visiting some of teh big planets on teh way out. Then I returned to teh Uk and was designing a CAT scanner with EMI. when that went to teh USA I went into industrial nuclear gauging and control. This took me globe trotting in a consultant capacity, saw a bit of night life and soem very interesting industrial plant, again a turn off for most, but thrilling stuff when you realise just how intimately that affects the daily life of just about everyone in our modern society. A spell with CalComp, I think That I’m still on their books as a consultant. That wasn’t so thrilling but it was personally satisfying, specially playing with those big plotters. Got a chance to play with one that had a big granite bed that was bigger than a full sized billiard table.
My mom worked there (I think it was CalComp…) I know they were making big granite plotters where she worked. Lots of tiny holes, the plotter floated on air in a similar fashion to an air hocky puck. They made circuit boards there too , right? My whole family is/was in the high tech biz in one way or another. Mom was an electrical engineer, dad was a programmer (and a lot of other things…) my brother has worked all around the computer industry. My wife is a project engineer for a company that designs and assembles plasma spray chambers. I’m the black sheep. Although, I guess I do do my work on a computer…
That one was used to make teh original masters
for printing currency notes and security stuff. for it’s time high precision driven by pneumatics. You could draw a full sized poster on that thing if you wanted.
I have a damaged beam off one of those at home which I use as a very large straight edge; it cost over $10,000 to make.
I think my mom has some relics from her days there as well.
It’s a lot more than I can lay claim to.
I’m actually trying to pass with out any ripples.

You know young people are very conservative and cautious, few grasp life by the throat and live it. They get into such a bad habit that they never break out of it.
Take a chance do something risky and radical, you’ll never regret it even if it doesn’t pan out the way you think.
I’m not so young.. thanks for the sentiment. I said I was trying, not that I succeeded. I’ve taken one or two risks in my 40 years. I regret little of my life. Actually, I’m pretty happy.
flash or FLASH?
I suppose with the advent of the digital camera it is only a matter of time before we have laser scanners available on teh domestic market, no flash required.
There’s already an IR beam that’ll bring out the details to areas in shadow on some digital cameras.
Gary Peach
Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Chuck
SS
Samantha Stolk
Dec 15, 2004
Nicely said Adam.

Adam Berry wrote:

Personally, I feel these guys are overreacting and in some cases think they are being quite poncey about the whole thing.

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any budget but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes. As long as they aren’t thinking too much about every minor detail about it (that u mentioned in your post). With a budget like that, the chances are, everything u mentioned is irrelevant.

All he wants is a logo. I worked for a company that was producing a brochure for a client. An external company they used as a partner supplied their logo to be put on the brochure. It was awful and actually turned out the managing director had knocked it up in Paint. Believe me it was awful. We even offered to make something up free of charge cos no matter what we did, it was going to be a big improvement. He declined. But the fact was, we could have done better in five minutes.

If you don’t want to help the guy out, fine. but don’t be so arsey about it.
T Hanson, I’m not going to put any effort into it, but if an idea pops in my head I’ll artwork it up and let u see it.

Regards
Adam

"T Hanson" wrote in message

Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a

start

up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your

signature

will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the right track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple for reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

SS
Samantha Stolk
Dec 15, 2004
Poncey…means to be a jerk in american slang.

There’s a difference in making a profit and ripping people off. To charge someone huge amounts of money for a logo design is rediculous. I understand the concept of earning a profit…I have my own, very successful business and its not built on over charging people any way I can. Maybe thats why its working. People know they’ll get quatilty for a very good rate. People that graduate university/college and come out with the attitude such as the one displayed earlier are setting themselves up for a failure. You may think that you’re the best thing since sliced bread, but attitude and arrogance shows quite the opposite.

Give the guy a break. He wasn’t asking you specifically for help, he was just putting it out on the boards for help. I assume you have your own business. Do you remember the days where start up costs were a huge issue or were you given everything and didn’t need to earn anything? try not to look down on other people when they’re asking for help. You proove nothing other than you’re a ponce.

BFM wrote:

Adam:

I’d like to know the designers that knock up a "half-decent" logo in 10 mins. I can sketch stuff out on paper in probably that time, but that’s about it, and it’s no where near done. Is he going to pay me $100 for a sketch on paper?

I’m also trying to figure out in my head how many $100 logo’s would cover a university degree, and 5+ years experience.

Let’s equate this to working in an architectural office. Some guy walks in, says he’s got $100, and he just wants a basic floor plan, that’s it. No fixture placement, no dimensions, no notes on material, nothing. Well, my first guess is he would be laughed out of the office, but if someone did take the job, they would sketch it out on a used napkin, and demand the entire $100. Not once, in my 5+ years now of working in the architectural industry, has someone pulled something like that. Why? Because they would be laughed out of the office. There is a fixed (base) fee, and the guy wanting the sketch would get what he paid for. He would end up paying $100 in clerical fees before the Architect even touched the napkin with a pencil.
If I take this argument further, what you’re saying (basically) is, the skills of a graphic-artist are less viable and useful then those of an architect? In certain instances you’re right (knowledge of codes, design parameters, etc.), and then again, I look at companies like Nike, Cingular Wireless, etc. and the viability argument fails.

Just curious, Adam, are you still living at home? How many $100 logo’s do you think it would take to pay rent, business costs, etc.? When you attended college, did they let you know that $100 knock-offs for logo’s was a good deal? Did you attend college? I’m sure the guys who have created material for Nike, for instance, would have done their work for $5.00/hr. I mean, hey, it’s only graphic-design.

And what does "poncey" mean? Is that British slang?
"Adam Berry" wrote in message

Personally, I feel these guys are overreacting and in some cases think

they

are being quite poncey about the whole thing.

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any budget but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes. As long as they aren’t thinking too much about every minor detail about it (that u

mentioned

in your post). With a budget like that, the chances are, everything u mentioned is irrelevant.

All he wants is a logo. I worked for a company that was producing a

brochure

for a client. An external company they used as a partner supplied their

logo

to be put on the brochure. It was awful and actually turned out the

managing

director had knocked it up in Paint. Believe me it was awful. We even offered to make something up free of charge cos no matter what we did, it was going to be a big improvement. He declined. But the fact was, we could have done better in five minutes.

If you don’t want to help the guy out, fine. but don’t be so arsey about

it.

T Hanson, I’m not going to put any effort into it, but if an idea pops in

my

head I’ll artwork it up and let u see it.

Regards
Adam

"T Hanson" wrote in message

Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a

start

up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your

signature

will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the right track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple

for

reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

S
Scruff
Dec 15, 2004
Actually, the OP was a scammer.

"Samantha Stolk" wrote in message
Poncey…means to be a jerk in american slang.

There’s a difference in making a profit and ripping people off. To charge someone huge amounts of money for a logo design is rediculous. I understand the concept of earning a profit…I have my own, very successful business and its not built on over charging people any way I can. Maybe thats why its working. People know they’ll get quatilty for a very good rate. People that graduate university/college and come out with the attitude such as the one displayed earlier are setting themselves up for a failure. You may think that you’re the best thing since sliced bread, but attitude and arrogance shows quite the opposite.
Give the guy a break. He wasn’t asking you specifically for help, he was just putting it out on the boards for help. I assume you have your own business. Do you remember the days where start up costs were a huge issue or were you given everything and didn’t need to earn anything? try not to look down on other people when they’re asking for help. You proove nothing other than you’re a ponce.

BFM wrote:

Adam:

I’d like to know the designers that knock up a "half-decent" logo in 10 mins. I can sketch stuff out on paper in probably that time, but that’s about it, and it’s no where near done. Is he going to pay me $100 for a sketch on paper?

I’m also trying to figure out in my head how many $100 logo’s would
cover a
university degree, and 5+ years experience.

Let’s equate this to working in an architectural office. Some guy walks
in,
says he’s got $100, and he just wants a basic floor plan, that’s it. No fixture placement, no dimensions, no notes on material, nothing. Well,
my
first guess is he would be laughed out of the office, but if someone did take the job, they would sketch it out on a used napkin, and demand the entire $100. Not once, in my 5+ years now of working in the
architectural
industry, has someone pulled something like that. Why? Because they
would
be laughed out of the office. There is a fixed (base) fee, and the guy wanting the sketch would get what he paid for. He would end up paying
$100
in clerical fees before the Architect even touched the napkin with a
pencil.
If I take this argument further, what you’re saying (basically) is, the skills of a graphic-artist are less viable and useful then those of an architect? In certain instances you’re right (knowledge of codes,
design
parameters, etc.), and then again, I look at companies like Nike,
Cingular
Wireless, etc. and the viability argument fails.

Just curious, Adam, are you still living at home? How many $100 logo’s
do
you think it would take to pay rent, business costs, etc.? When you attended college, did they let you know that $100 knock-offs for logo’s
was
a good deal? Did you attend college? I’m sure the guys who have
created
material for Nike, for instance, would have done their work for
$5.00/hr. I
mean, hey, it’s only graphic-design.

And what does "poncey" mean? Is that British slang?
"Adam Berry" wrote in message

Personally, I feel these guys are overreacting and in some cases think

they

are being quite poncey about the whole thing.

BFM, please, get down from the high horse u are sitting on. The guy is offereing $100. Thats all. For that, it means they have hardly any
budget
but would quite a like a half decent logo. In most cases, I find that designers can knock up a half decent logo in 10 minutes. As long as they aren’t thinking too much about every minor detail about it (that u

mentioned

in your post). With a budget like that, the chances are, everything u mentioned is irrelevant.

All he wants is a logo. I worked for a company that was producing a

brochure

for a client. An external company they used as a partner supplied their

logo

to be put on the brochure. It was awful and actually turned out the

managing

director had knocked it up in Paint. Believe me it was awful. We even offered to make something up free of charge cos no matter what we did,
it
was going to be a big improvement. He declined. But the fact was, we
could
have done better in five minutes.

If you don’t want to help the guy out, fine. but don’t be so arsey about

it.

T Hanson, I’m not going to put any effort into it, but if an idea pops
in
my

head I’ll artwork it up and let u see it.

Regards
Adam

"T Hanson" wrote in message

Hi!

We would like to commission a logo designer to make our new logo for a

start

up company.

We can pay $100 and are hoping someone can make this happen. Your

signature

will also be listed in our literature which may lead to other business.
Please submit your rough draft to us and if we feel we are on the right track we will further the relationship to secure the final design.
We like: Steel, Old money, respectful, serious, eye catching, simple

for

reproductions, looks good in color as well as black and white.
We don’t like cartoons or fancy pictures.

It must contain the entire name:

"NeckandBackInstitute.com"

or

"BackandNeckInstitute.com"

Maybe something with the initials: "NBI" or "BNI"
Send samples to:

Thanks

V
Voivod
Dec 17, 2004
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:38:19 -0500, Samantha Stolk
scribbled:

To charge someone huge amounts of money for a logo design is rediculous.

A logo represents the company. A good one is often more identifiable that the actual company name. Who wouldn’t know the Coke logo no matter what language it’s writen in, hmm? It gets put on the letterhead, the business cards the envelopes, the web page, the company vehicles, etc. etc. etc. Gee, no reason to put a high price on something that can make or break a company.

Come back when you have a clue what you’re talking about.
B
bagal
Dec 17, 2004
Voivod wrote:
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:38:19 -0500, Samantha Stolk
scribbled:

To charge someone huge amounts of money for a logo design is rediculous.

A logo represents the company. A good one is often more identifiable that the actual company name. Who wouldn’t know the Coke logo no matter what language it’s writen in, hmm? It gets put on the letterhead, the business cards the envelopes, the web page, the company vehicles, etc. etc. etc. Gee, no reason to put a high price on something that can make or break a company.

Come back when you have a clue what you’re talking about.
It sounds like the Poster is payer rather than payee

In which case the post would be equally adamant and equally volatile but probably going in the other direction

Aerti
S
Scruff
Dec 17, 2004
What if it’s for something like a sandwich shop, or the guy selling fish tacos on the corner?

"Voivod" wrote in message
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:38:19 -0500, Samantha Stolk
scribbled:

To charge someone huge amounts of money for a logo design is rediculous.

A logo represents the company. A good one is often more identifiable that the actual company name. Who wouldn’t know the Coke logo no matter what language it’s writen in, hmm? It gets put on the letterhead, the business cards the envelopes, the web page, the company vehicles, etc. etc. etc. Gee, no reason to put a high price on something that can make or break a company.

Come back when you have a clue what you’re talking about.
V
Voivod
Dec 17, 2004
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:08:23 -0500, "Scruff" < Dear> scribbled:

What if it’s for something like a sandwich shop, or the guy selling fish tacos on the corner?

They can go to the local Arts school, they can, quite cheaply, sponsor a logo contest over at Worth1000.com. Where do you think most companies started?

"Voivod" wrote in message
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:38:19 -0500, Samantha Stolk
scribbled:

To charge someone huge amounts of money for a logo design is rediculous.

A logo represents the company. A good one is often more identifiable that the actual company name. Who wouldn’t know the Coke logo no matter what language it’s writen in, hmm? It gets put on the letterhead, the business cards the envelopes, the web page, the company vehicles, etc. etc. etc. Gee, no reason to put a high price on something that can make or break a company.

Come back when you have a clue what you’re talking about.
CA
Chris Allen
Dec 18, 2004
Voivod wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:08:23 -0500, "Scruff" < Dear> scribbled:

What if it’s for something like a sandwich shop, or the guy selling fish tacos on the corner?

They can go to the local Arts school, they can, quite cheaply, sponsor a logo contest over at Worth1000.com. Where do you think most companies started?

"Voivod" wrote in message

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:38:19 -0500, Samantha Stolk
scribbled:

To charge someone huge amounts of money for a logo design is rediculous.

A logo represents the company. A good one is often more identifiable that the actual company name. Who wouldn’t know the Coke logo no matter what language it’s writen in, hmm? It gets put on the letterhead, the business cards the envelopes, the web page, the company vehicles, etc. etc. etc. Gee, no reason to put a high price on something that can make or break a company.

Come back when you have a clue what you’re talking about.
You know, a lot of logo’s are justified in the expense simply due to the fact that any designer worth his salt will research the company, the name, mission statement, etc before even setting pencil to paper. Then it’s about 100 sketches to get the idea. I realize sometimes it just comes to you, and sometimes it takes more for a really good one. But a way to build a name is through pro bono work (which I still do) and $100 is pro bono. Hell I’ll do it- things are a little slow.
S
Shank
Dec 18, 2004
Who wouldn’t know the Coke logo <<
That logo is identifiable because it’s the biggest object on everything they sell. Plus, they’ve invested 100 years and 40 trillion dollars into promoting their products. No one gives a flyin’ poo about what that logo may look like. If the design of that logo were so important as opposed to just promoting the product, then why hasn’t Target, Walmart, Sears, IBM, Microsoft, Kmart, Hostess and a million other billion dollar companies imitated the design? All those companies have their own design for their own reasons. Regardless, had they all not thrown trillions of dollars at promotion, you wouldn’t recognize any of them.
S
spam
Dec 18, 2004
"Shank" wrote in message
Who wouldn’t know the Coke logo <<
That logo is identifiable because it’s the biggest object on everything they sell. Plus, they’ve invested 100 years and 40 trillion dollars into promoting their products. No one gives a flyin’ poo about what that logo may look like. If the design of that logo were so important as opposed to just promoting the product, then why hasn’t Target, Walmart, Sears, IBM, Microsoft, Kmart, Hostess and a million other billion dollar companies imitated the design? All those companies have their own design for their own reasons. Regardless, had they all not thrown trillions of dollars at promotion, you wouldn’t recognize any of them.

The logos of Wal-Mart, Sears, IBM, and Microsoft obviously didn’t come from hours of design work, but are quite identifiable on their own, as they all display their names as we came to know them! (And yes, it was through years of promotion, mostly, that we came to know the names themselves.)

Personally, I don’t think such "brands" should qualify to be described as "logos", in the truest sense of the word. A true logo is a "representative graphic", usually a simple one, that brings to the mind of the viewer what the company offers, manufactures, etc. For this kind of logo, there should be a certain amount of design footwork put into its making, and I would think that would equal more money invested for that design.

How much money should that be?…
A "flat" agreement of $100 might cover it, but that can be pretty subjective, depending on how difficult the project might or might not be, and on factors like:

1) How much does the designer normally want for his time when he/she charges by the hour?
2) How many hours did it take?
3) How many prototypes is the designer being asked to produce?
4) How many "rounds" of trial and rejection does the design go through?
5) Is the design to be conceived and rendered solely by the artist’s license, or is there a concept already being given by the customer that merely needs refining or realizing?

A number of these "logo requests" took me under an hour. That was usually because the customer liked the first 1 or 2 iterations, and the work came easily, or the customer supplied "compulsory elements" that just needed to be "married". In these cases, the customer is *almost* always a small business or private practitioner. A flat $100 is gravy here.

But others seem to take forever, and involve submitting countless possible prototypes, revisions, and even meetings with various levels of the company’s management. These cases seem to always involve the larger businesses. I don’t offer flat rates on these, and don’t recall regretting that rule.

My 2 cents (CDN).

– Brent
S
Scruff
Dec 18, 2004
"Voivod" wrote in message
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:08:23 -0500, "Scruff" < Dear> scribbled:

What if it’s for something like a sandwich shop, or the guy selling fish tacos on the corner?

They can go to the local Arts school, they can, quite cheaply, sponsor a logo contest over at Worth1000.com. Where do you think most companies started?
Most companies started at Worth100.com?
V
Voivod
Dec 18, 2004
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:32:18 -0500, "Scruff" < Dear> scribbled:

"Voivod" wrote in message
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:08:23 -0500, "Scruff" < Dear> scribbled:

What if it’s for something like a sandwich shop, or the guy selling fish tacos on the corner?

They can go to the local Arts school, they can, quite cheaply, sponsor a logo contest over at Worth1000.com. Where do you think most companies started?
Most companies started at Worth100.com?

No, shitwit, most companies started out ‘like a sandwich shop’ or ‘the guy selling fish tacos on the corner’. Do try and keep up with the rest of us.
S
SCRUFF
Dec 18, 2004
"Voivod" crapped in message

No, <typical and expected vulgarity deleted>, most companies started out
‘like a sandwich shop’ or ‘the
guy selling fish tacos on the corner’. Do try and keep up with the rest of us.

Yes, from the looks of your web site, http://s90011794.onlinehome.us/, you are still at the fish taco level, Do try and keep up.
B
bagal
Dec 19, 2004
Hmmm – it is a good point – size of the organization I mean.

Sometimes the "logo" is only part of a process to change or create a corporate identity. Now that does cost quite a lot of dash

Aerticeus
H
Hecate
Dec 20, 2004
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 13:51:18 GMT, "Shank"
wrote:

Who wouldn’t know the Coke logo <<
That logo is identifiable because it’s the biggest object on everything they sell. Plus, they’ve invested 100 years and 40 trillion dollars into promoting their products. No one gives a flyin’ poo about what that logo may look like. If the design of that logo were so important as opposed to just promoting the product, then why hasn’t Target, Walmart, Sears, IBM, Microsoft, Kmart, Hostess and a million other billion dollar companies imitated the design? All those companies have their own design for their own reasons. Regardless, had they all not thrown trillions of dollars at promotion, you wouldn’t recognize any of them.
Let me give you a clue – logo’s are copyrighted and no other company than the company that owns the copyright can use the. I know that’s really unfashionable amongst the "we can have everything for free on the Net" crowd, but in real life if you decided to use Coke’s logo they’d sue your ass faster than you could say jail.



Hecate – The Real One

veni, vidi, reliqui
U
Uni
Dec 20, 2004
Unsubscribe Here! wrote:

The logos of Wal-Mart, Sears, IBM, and Microsoft obviously didn’t come from hours of design work, but are quite identifiable on their own, as they all display their names as we came to know them! (And yes, it was through years of promotion, mostly, that we came to know the names themselves.)

Logos, like company names, can be used by anyone. Just like there’s a thousand different "Joe’s Pizza" shops.

Uni
AA
Alan Apperson
Dec 20, 2004
"Uni" wrote in message
Logos, like company names, can be used by anyone. Just like there’s a thousand different "Joe’s Pizza" shops.

Per http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html "Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases. In some cases, these things may be protected as trademarks. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, 800-786-9199, for further information. However, copyright protection may be available for logo artwork that contains sufficient authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also be protected as a trademark."

So it seems the logo can be protected sometimes.
S
spam
Dec 20, 2004
"Alan Apperson" wrote in message
"Uni" wrote in message
Logos, like company names, can be used by anyone. Just like there’s a thousand different "Joe’s Pizza" shops.

Per http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html "Copyright does not
protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases. In some cases, these things may be protected as trademarks. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, 800-786-9199, for further information. However, copyright protection
may be available for logo artwork that contains sufficient authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also be protected as a trademark."

So it seems the logo can be protected sometimes.

Once anything has achieved either a copyright or trademark, it IS protected from being used by another party. This goes for any such "marked" slogans, symbols, or even the "process names" (company-invented names for products or services offered).

The qualifier is the "C" or "TM", which is usually documented in some of such a company’s publicized material.

This is basically the same in both Canada and the US. They each just document, phrase, and enforce these laws using there own "styles".

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