PING Mike Russell

TC
Posted By
tony cooper
Feb 21, 2007
Views
302
Replies
10
Status
Closed
Referring to the image at:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/slabtest.jp g

This is a project that I have to do almost weekly. I have to photograph three or four slabs like this a week. A "slab", by the way, is a coin that has been encapsulated by a professional coin grading service. The slab is clear plastic over a white plastic insert that contains the coin.

Because I only photograph three or four at a time, I prefer to photograph under natural light because the set-up is quicker. I use a small camera stand and photograph on a screened in porch so I have diffused light and minimal shadows. I use a white index card under the slab.

The results are always bluish to very blue. I assume that’s because the light is not adequate. The output is whiter when direct sunlight is used, but the shadows are a problem.

To make the white white, I use Curves. Setting the White Point, though, blows out everything. Setting both a WP and a BP is a disaster. Just moving the Curve helps, but doesn’t work very well. I can extract the slab and bring the background to white, but that’s very time consuming since there are no clear edges with clear plastic.

I can use a colored background, but the color shows through the clear plastic rims so the image isn’t an accurate representation.

When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.

Suggestions?



Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

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Q
Quintsys
Feb 21, 2007
Tony Cooper schreef:
Referring to the image at:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/slabtest.jp g
This is a project that I have to do almost weekly. I have to photograph three or four slabs like this a week. A "slab", by the way, is a coin that has been encapsulated by a professional coin grading service. The slab is clear plastic over a white plastic insert that contains the coin.

Because I only photograph three or four at a time, I prefer to photograph under natural light because the set-up is quicker. I use a small camera stand and photograph on a screened in porch so I have diffused light and minimal shadows. I use a white index card under the slab.

The results are always bluish to very blue. I assume that’s because the light is not adequate. The output is whiter when direct sunlight is used, but the shadows are a problem.

To make the white white, I use Curves. Setting the White Point, though, blows out everything. Setting both a WP and a BP is a disaster. Just moving the Curve helps, but doesn’t work very well. I can extract the slab and bring the background to white, but that’s very time consuming since there are no clear edges with clear plastic.
I can use a colored background, but the color shows through the clear plastic rims so the image isn’t an accurate representation.
When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.

Suggestions?
Wouldn’t it be an idea to lay a neutral grey card in the picture and use curves to adjust the card to a real neutral grey?

Carlo
MR
Mike Russell
Feb 21, 2007
Tony Cooper schreef:
Referring to the image at:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/slabtest.jp g
This is a project that I have to do almost weekly. I have to photograph three or four slabs like this a week. A "slab", by the way, is a coin that has been encapsulated by a professional coin grading service. The slab is clear plastic over a white plastic insert that contains the coin.

Because I only photograph three or four at a time, I prefer to photograph under natural light because the set-up is quicker. I use a small camera stand and photograph on a screened in porch so I have diffused light and minimal shadows. I use a white index card under the slab.

The results are always bluish to very blue. I assume that’s because the light is not adequate. The output is whiter when direct sunlight is used, but the shadows are a problem.

Some papers have UV whiteners that can give a very blue appearance, particularly when they are next to other materials. I’m guessing the slab insert probably does not have whiteners.

To make the white white, I use Curves. Setting the White Point, though, blows out everything. Setting both a WP and a BP is a disaster. Just moving the Curve helps, but doesn’t work very well. I can extract the slab and bring the background to white, but that’s very time consuming since there are no clear edges with clear plastic.

I don’t see you on the Curvemeister customer list, so I’ll assume you are using the black and white eyedroppers in the curves dialog. These are fairly extreme tools, and not really suitable for white balance as such. In Curvemeister you would normally set a neutral to get rid of the color.

I can use a colored background, but the color shows through the clear plastic rims so the image isn’t an accurate representation.

Or a dark gray or black.

When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.

The basic problem, I gather, is that you want the slab and background to match. I think it’s the UV whiteners that are causing the background paper to turn blue on you. To verify this, try photographing under a tungsten bulb – which has no UV – and see if the blue problem goes away.

Either way, experiment with a different background material – artists drawing paper for example – until you find one that does not show this behavior. Post back and let us know what your eventual solution is. —
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/
NE
nesredep egrob
Feb 21, 2007
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:29:57 -0500, Tony Cooper
wrote:

Referring to the image at:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/slabtest.jp g
This is a project that I have to do almost weekly. I have to photograph three or four slabs like this a week. A "slab", by the way, is a coin that has been encapsulated by a professional coin grading service. The slab is clear plastic over a white plastic insert that contains the coin.

Because I only photograph three or four at a time, I prefer to photograph under natural light because the set-up is quicker. I use a small camera stand and photograph on a screened in porch so I have diffused light and minimal shadows. I use a white index card under the slab.

The results are always bluish to very blue. I assume that’s because the light is not adequate. The output is whiter when direct sunlight is used, but the shadows are a problem.

To make the white white, I use Curves. Setting the White Point, though, blows out everything. Setting both a WP and a BP is a disaster. Just moving the Curve helps, but doesn’t work very well. I can extract the slab and bring the background to white, but that’s very time consuming since there are no clear edges with clear plastic.
I can use a colored background, but the color shows through the clear plastic rims so the image isn’t an accurate representation.
When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.

Suggestions?
Have you not thought about adjusting white in the camera before tackling the more difficult jobs.

If you have a decent digi camera you should be able to set the adjustments to a named use that you can call up when doing just that job.

I am sorry – that would have been my very first adjustment.

Borge in sunny Perth, Australia
TC
tony cooper
Feb 22, 2007
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:04:14 +0800, nesredep egrob <Long. -31,48.21 Lat. 115,47.40> wrote:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:29:57 -0500, Tony Cooper
wrote:

Referring to the image at:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/slabtest.jp g
This is a project that I have to do almost weekly. I have to photograph three or four slabs like this a week. A "slab", by the way, is a coin that has been encapsulated by a professional coin grading service. The slab is clear plastic over a white plastic insert that contains the coin.

Because I only photograph three or four at a time, I prefer to photograph under natural light because the set-up is quicker. I use a small camera stand and photograph on a screened in porch so I have diffused light and minimal shadows. I use a white index card under the slab.

The results are always bluish to very blue. I assume that’s because the light is not adequate. The output is whiter when direct sunlight is used, but the shadows are a problem.

To make the white white, I use Curves. Setting the White Point, though, blows out everything. Setting both a WP and a BP is a disaster. Just moving the Curve helps, but doesn’t work very well. I can extract the slab and bring the background to white, but that’s very time consuming since there are no clear edges with clear plastic.
I can use a colored background, but the color shows through the clear plastic rims so the image isn’t an accurate representation.
When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.

Suggestions?
Have you not thought about adjusting white in the camera before tackling the more difficult jobs.

If you have a decent digi camera you should be able to set the adjustments to a named use that you can call up when doing just that job.
I am sorry – that would have been my very first adjustment.
Certainly. I’ve tried setting the WB to sunlight and setting the camera to automatic. I’ve tried setting by aperture and speed. It doesn’t make a difference.



Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Z
ZzZ
Feb 22, 2007
Use a Pro photographer! 🙂

"Tony Cooper" wrote in message
Referring to the image at:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/slabtest.jp g
This is a project that I have to do almost weekly. I have to photograph three or four slabs like this a week. A "slab", by the way, is a coin that has been encapsulated by a professional coin grading service. The slab is clear plastic over a white plastic insert that contains the coin.

Because I only photograph three or four at a time, I prefer to photograph under natural light because the set-up is quicker. I use a small camera stand and photograph on a screened in porch so I have diffused light and minimal shadows. I use a white index card under the slab.

The results are always bluish to very blue. I assume that’s because the light is not adequate. The output is whiter when direct sunlight is used, but the shadows are a problem.

To make the white white, I use Curves. Setting the White Point, though, blows out everything. Setting both a WP and a BP is a disaster. Just moving the Curve helps, but doesn’t work very well. I can extract the slab and bring the background to white, but that’s very time consuming since there are no clear edges with clear plastic.
I can use a colored background, but the color shows through the clear plastic rims so the image isn’t an accurate representation.
When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.

Suggestions?



Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
TC
tony cooper
Feb 22, 2007
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:28:30 GMT, "Mike Russell" wrote:

Tony Cooper schreef:
Referring to the image at:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/slabtest.jp g
This is a project that I have to do almost weekly. I have to photograph three or four slabs like this a week. A "slab", by the way, is a coin that has been encapsulated by a professional coin grading service. The slab is clear plastic over a white plastic insert that contains the coin.

Because I only photograph three or four at a time, I prefer to photograph under natural light because the set-up is quicker. I use a small camera stand and photograph on a screened in porch so I have diffused light and minimal shadows. I use a white index card under the slab.

The results are always bluish to very blue. I assume that’s because the light is not adequate. The output is whiter when direct sunlight is used, but the shadows are a problem.

Some papers have UV whiteners that can give a very blue appearance, particularly when they are next to other materials. I’m guessing the slab insert probably does not have whiteners.

To make the white white, I use Curves. Setting the White Point, though, blows out everything. Setting both a WP and a BP is a disaster. Just moving the Curve helps, but doesn’t work very well. I can extract the slab and bring the background to white, but that’s very time consuming since there are no clear edges with clear plastic.

I don’t see you on the Curvemeister customer list, so I’ll assume you are using the black and white eyedroppers in the curves dialog. These are fairly extreme tools, and not really suitable for white balance as such. In Curvemeister you would normally set a neutral to get rid of the color.
I can use a colored background, but the color shows through the clear plastic rims so the image isn’t an accurate representation.

Or a dark gray or black.

When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.

The basic problem, I gather, is that you want the slab and background to match. I think it’s the UV whiteners that are causing the background paper to turn blue on you. To verify this, try photographing under a tungsten bulb – which has no UV – and see if the blue problem goes away.
Either way, experiment with a different background material – artists drawing paper for example – until you find one that does not show this behavior. Post back and let us know what your eventual solution is.

After many experiments with lighting, camera settings, and backgrounds, I ended up going back to a red background and photographing under natural light. The shots taken with tungsten and using a soft box are not much different, and take longer to set up.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/redslab.jpg is unadjusted. The white’s white enough, the red isn’t too intrusive, and very little tweaking will be required. The red is a bit darker on the left, but this can be adjusted by positioning the set-up according to the direction the light comes from.

Also, the final product will be cropped so only a border of red is shown. I using full-view shots here just for example purposes.



Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
MR
Mike Russell
Feb 22, 2007
"Tony Cooper" wrote in message
….
After many experiments with lighting, camera settings, and backgrounds, I ended up going back to a red background and photographing under natural light. The shots taken with tungsten and using a soft box are not much different, and take longer to set up.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/redslab.jpg is unadjusted. The white’s white enough, the red isn’t too intrusive, and very little tweaking will be required. The red is a bit darker on the left, but this can be adjusted by positioning the set-up according to the direction the light comes from.

Also, the final product will be cropped so only a border of red is shown. I using full-view shots here just for example purposes.

Hi Tony – well, it looks like you have a good solution. As a side note, looking at your last example, with the red background the whites are now green and cyan. I’m guessing you used auto white balance for this particular shot. A cyan and green cast will take away from the gold color. —
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/
TC
tony cooper
Feb 22, 2007
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:06:18 -0800, "Mike Russell" wrote:

"Tony Cooper" wrote in message

After many experiments with lighting, camera settings, and backgrounds, I ended up going back to a red background and photographing under natural light. The shots taken with tungsten and using a soft box are not much different, and take longer to set up.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/redslab.jpg is unadjusted. The white’s white enough, the red isn’t too intrusive, and very little tweaking will be required. The red is a bit darker on the left, but this can be adjusted by positioning the set-up according to the direction the light comes from.

Also, the final product will be cropped so only a border of red is shown. I using full-view shots here just for example purposes.

Hi Tony – well, it looks like you have a good solution. As a side note, looking at your last example, with the red background the whites are now green and cyan. I’m guessing you used auto white balance for this particular shot. A cyan and green cast will take away from the gold color.

I shot that last series using Auto white balance and Direct Sunlight Shady…all bracketed. Out of the nine shots, I picked the one that looked the best on my screen. I deleted that series from the computer, so I can’t check now.

The image, after cropping, will display at 240 x 300, so I think it’s adequate.

Aren’t digital cameras great, though? I must have taken 80 or 90 pictures fiddling around with this problem. All at no cost and no waiting for processing.



Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
A
Avery
Feb 23, 2007
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:29:57 -0500, Tony Cooper
wrote:

Referring to the image at:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/slabtest.jp g
This is a project that I have to do almost weekly. I have to photograph three or four slabs like this a week. A "slab", by the way, is a coin that has been encapsulated by a professional coin grading service. The slab is clear plastic over a white plastic insert that contains the coin.

Because I only photograph three or four at a time, I prefer to photograph under natural light because the set-up is quicker. I use a small camera stand and photograph on a screened in porch so I have diffused light and minimal shadows. I use a white index card under the slab.

The results are always bluish to very blue. I assume that’s because the light is not adequate. The output is whiter when direct sunlight is used, but the shadows are a problem.

To make the white white, I use Curves. Setting the White Point, though, blows out everything. Setting both a WP and a BP is a disaster. Just moving the Curve helps, but doesn’t work very well. I can extract the slab and bring the background to white, but that’s very time consuming since there are no clear edges with clear plastic.
I can use a colored background, but the color shows through the clear plastic rims so the image isn’t an accurate representation.
When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.

Suggestions?
Have you tried scanning them rather than photographing them?
TC
tony cooper
Feb 23, 2007
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:42:44 GMT, Avery wrote:

When I photograph the coins before sending them out to be slabbed, I have no problem bringing the blue to white with Curves. It’s just the slab with that white insert that causes the problem.
Have you tried scanning them rather than photographing them?

Yes. The results are worse. Much worse. I have two scanners: an Epson all-in-one printer, scanner, copier and an old Microtek. I use the Microtek when I need depth-of-field.

The problem seems to be with the white insert and a white background, coupled with gold lettering and a gold object. When the image is brought into Photoshop, any efforts in whitening up the insert result in blowing out everything else. Unadjusted whites are gray, so some adjustment is needed.

I’ve solved it, well enough, by switching to a red background.



Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

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