CMYK vs.RGB

M
Posted By
mikedunny
Sep 5, 2006
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966
Replies
18
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Closed
I’m saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I’m currently using a consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.

If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade printer (they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change the TIF images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the image?

Thanks for any assistance.
Mike

MacBook Pro 16” Mockups 🔥

– in 4 materials (clay versions included)

– 12 scenes

– 48 MacBook Pro 16″ mockups

– 6000 x 4500 px

A
Aaron
Sep 5, 2006
MikeD wrote:
I’m saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I’m currently using a consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.
If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade printer (they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change the TIF images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the image?

Thanks for any assistance.
Mike

CMYK is typically only used for output to a press. Most printers, even "professional-level" inkjet plotters such as the Epson 7600 or 9600 (24" and 44", respectively) still take RGB images as input, even though they use a variation of CMYK inks.

IF you had a specific printer in mind, you could take a look at what its documentation recommends, but even if the answer is CMYK, you can convert your documents from RGB to CMYK without a catastrophic loss in quality or range. In fact, I believe changing color modes is lossless, whereas changing color profiles is not.

Anyhow, that’s all I know.


Aaron

"Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves, than by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest." — John Stuart Mill
K
KatWoman
Sep 5, 2006
"Aaron" wrote in message
MikeD wrote:
I’m saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I’m currently using a consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.
If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade printer (they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change the TIF images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the image?

Thanks for any assistance.
Mike

CMYK is typically only used for output to a press. Most printers, even "professional-level" inkjet plotters such as the Epson 7600 or 9600 (24" and 44", respectively) still take RGB images as input, even though they use a variation of CMYK inks.

IF you had a specific printer in mind, you could take a look at what its documentation recommends, but even if the answer is CMYK, you can convert your documents from RGB to CMYK without a catastrophic loss in quality or range. In fact, I believe changing color modes is lossless, whereas changing color profiles is not.

Anyhow, that’s all I know.


Aaron
I have had a couple of really sad CMYK conversions from RGB most especially majenta or other bright saturated colors on a monitor won’t convert well to CMYK
I had websites then had to get print materials to match from the artwork Normally if I know the job will output for CMYK print shop I start the file in CMYK.
Have not tried the reverse CMYK print job to website.
I do not have InDesign.

my Epson R1800 uses the RGB files
B
bmoag
Sep 5, 2006
Inkjet printers are 8 bit RGB devices.
Do not convert your images to CMYK.
Maintain your images in a single color space, preferably Adobe RGB. Learn how to use color management and monitor calibration: you will be surprised at what you can achieve with your consumer grade HP printer if you learn to use the software and hardware properly.
MR
Mike Russell
Sep 6, 2006
MikeD wrote:
I’m saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I’m currently using a consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.
If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade printer (they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change the TIF images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the image?

Thanks for any assistance.
Mike

There is no need to work in CMYK just to get a better result from your inkjet printer, however there are at least two reasons you might want to work in CMYK. I have a feeling only the first reason is relevant to your particular situation.

1) for certain images, CMYK is the superior editing space. CMYK provides superior shadow control, allows detail and texture to be enhanced using channel mixing, and provides better control over subtle colors, such as skin tones. If your RGB image is not for press, and has colors, such as bright blue or purple, that do not fare well when converted to CMYK, try using my wide gamut CMYK profile:
< http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/widegamutcmyk/index.ht m> . This profile simulates incredibly pure CMYK inks, and retains colors that would ordinarily be lost in the conversion to CMYK.

2) printing via a RIP, or other postscript based color printer, to proof an offset printer is best done using a CMYK image. As you get more experienced, you will probably find that you have better control over the final result if you deliver a CMYK image. Allowing others to convert your RGB images to CMYK for printing will generally not get the best possible result.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/
A
Aaron
Sep 6, 2006
Mike Russell wrote:
MikeD wrote:
I’m saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I’m currently using a consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.
If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade
printer
(they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change
the TIF
images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the image?

Thanks for any assistance.
Mike

There is no need to work in CMYK just to get a better result from your inkjet printer, however there are at least two reasons you might want to work in CMYK. I have a feeling only the first reason is relevant to
your
particular situation.

1) for certain images, CMYK is the superior editing space. CMYK
provides
superior shadow control, allows detail and texture to be enhanced using channel mixing, and provides better control over subtle colors, such
as skin
tones. If your RGB image is not for press, and has colors, such as
bright
blue or purple, that do not fare well when converted to CMYK, try
using my
wide gamut CMYK profile:
< http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/widegamutcmyk/index.ht m> . This profile simulates incredibly pure CMYK inks, and retains colors that
would
ordinarily be lost in the conversion to CMYK.

2) printing via a RIP, or other postscript based color printer, to
proof an
offset printer is best done using a CMYK image. As you get more experienced, you will probably find that you have better control over
the
final result if you deliver a CMYK image. Allowing others to convert
your
RGB images to CMYK for printing will generally not get the best possible result.

This is really helpful, Mike, thanks!

Have you heard of "Bruce RGB," the supposed wide-gamut RGB space? I was using that as my working space (for inkjet output) and it worked very well, but I lost it in a freak formatting accident and was only able to get what I fear is an inferior substitute. You wouldn’t happen to have some wide-gamut RGB spaces lying around, would you?


Aaron

"Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves, than by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest." — John Stuart Mill
K
KatWoman
Sep 7, 2006
"Mike Russell" wrote in message
MikeD wrote:
I’m saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I’m currently using a consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.
If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade printer
(they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change the TIF
images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the image?

Thanks for any assistance.
Mike

There is no need to work in CMYK just to get a better result from your inkjet printer, however there are at least two reasons you might want to work in CMYK. I have a feeling only the first reason is relevant to your particular situation.

1) for certain images, CMYK is the superior editing space. CMYK provides superior shadow control, allows detail and texture to be enhanced using channel mixing, and provides better control over subtle colors, such as skin tones. If your RGB image is not for press, and has colors, such as bright blue or purple, that do not fare well when converted to CMYK, try using my wide gamut CMYK profile:
< http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/widegamutcmyk/index.ht m> . This profile simulates incredibly pure CMYK inks, and retains colors that would ordinarily be lost in the conversion to CMYK.

2) printing via a RIP, or other postscript based color printer, to proof an offset printer is best done using a CMYK image. As you get more experienced, you will probably find that you have better control over the final result if you deliver a CMYK image. Allowing others to convert your RGB images to CMYK for printing will generally not get the best possible result.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/

thanks a bunch Mike
going to try it out this weekend
My client decided to re-do her postcard design
Maybe now I can get those POP purples from her website to show up better

MR
Mike Russell
Sep 7, 2006
"KatWoman" wrote in message

[probably re
< http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/widegamutcmyk/index.ht m> ]
thanks a bunch Mike
going to try it out this weekend
My client decided to re-do her postcard design
Maybe now I can get those POP purples from her website to show up better

Be careful using the wide gamut profile. It is designed to allow RGB folks to edit temporarily in CMYK, without losing blues and purples that would ordinarily get fried in the conversion from RGB to CMYK. The profile was created by specifying fake ink colors in PhotoShop’s CMYK setup. The result looks good on screen, but the CMYK values will not work for real printing.

One way to keep impact in purples, when printing, is to move them toward magenta, using the eyedropper in hue/sat or other means, trading hue accuracy for saturation. Another trick is to add the complimentary colors green and yellow to the rest of the image.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/
RG
Roy G
Sep 8, 2006
"Aaron" wrote in message
Mike Russell wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Have you heard of "Bruce RGB," the supposed wide-gamut RGB space? I was using that as my working space (for inkjet output) and it worked very well, but I lost it in a freak formatting accident and was only able to get what I fear is an inferior substitute. You wouldn’t happen to have some wide-gamut RGB spaces lying around, would you?


Aaron

Hi.

It so happens that I have a copy of Bruce RGB Profile.

I will post it onto www.ayrphoto.co.uk at the bottom of the "How to Print for Accurate Colour" article on the "Notices and Info" Pages.

It should be up there within the next few hours, as I have some alterations to make to some of the other pages.

Roy G
RG
Roy G
Sep 8, 2006
"Roy G" wrote in message
"Aaron" wrote in message
Mike Russell wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Have you heard of "Bruce RGB," the supposed wide-gamut RGB space? I was using that as my working space (for inkjet output) and it worked very well, but I lost it in a freak formatting accident and was only able to get what I fear is an inferior substitute. You wouldn’t happen to have some wide-gamut RGB spaces lying around, would you?


Aaron

Hi.

It so happens that I have a copy of Bruce RGB Profile.

I will post it onto www.ayrphoto.co.uk at the bottom of the "How to Print for Accurate Colour" article on the "Notices and Info" Pages.
It should be up there within the next few hours, as I have some alterations to make to some of the other pages.

Roy G
Hi Again.

I am having some problems, so if anyone wants it, could you Email me at and I will send it.

Roy G
K
KatWoman
Sep 8, 2006
"Mike Russell" wrote in message
"KatWoman" wrote in message

[probably re
< http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/widegamutcmyk/index.ht m> ]
thanks a bunch Mike
going to try it out this weekend
My client decided to re-do her postcard design
Maybe now I can get those POP purples from her website to show up better

Be careful using the wide gamut profile. It is designed to allow RGB folks to edit temporarily in CMYK, without losing blues and purples that would ordinarily get fried in the conversion from RGB to CMYK. The profile was created by specifying fake ink colors in PhotoShop’s CMYK setup. The result looks good on screen, but the CMYK values will not work for real printing.

One way to keep impact in purples, when printing, is to move them toward magenta, using the eyedropper in hue/sat or other means, trading hue accuracy for saturation. Another trick is to add the complimentary colors green and yellow to the rest of the image.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/

well I do need to print it
I cannot get the colors to work for CMYK at all
this page has the website
I need postcard and business cards to match it
www.XXXsheilabarishvoiceXXX.com
remove xxx’s

do I need Illustrator for this? I don’t have IN DESIGN
In Design?
I have seen these colors or closer than dull purple in print so there must be majenta ink
and violet.
On inkjet I can at least get vivid dark pink..

I have to re-do this job
and I have to find out how to do this for the future
I keep getting these print jobs after the websites are designed this is from the printer specs http://www.pkgraphics.com/jobspecs.asp

Job Specs ATTENTION, IF YOUR JOB IS COLOR CRITICAL!

If your job is color critical you "MUST" request a Match print
MR
Mike Russell
Sep 9, 2006
"KatWoman" wrote in message
….
this page has the website
I need postcard and business cards to match it
www.XXXsheilabarishvoiceXXX.com
remove xxx’s

I cannot get the colors to work for CMYK at all

The magenta/pink on black lettering is not a problem. Just make sure that is CMYK(0,100,0,0), and do the usual trapping, and you’re set for the type.

There are at least three issues with the Logo. Two are easy, and the third one you may need to just punt.

The first problem is the blacks – this is each to fix before the conversion with curves – before the conversion to CMYK, move the black end of the RGB curve until you get a solid, pure black background RGB(0,0,0). Keep a copy of the original RGB image for reference, and convert the logo to Web Coated SWOP v2.

The second problem I see is that after converting to CMYK, everything drifts toward the same dark blue-purple. This makes it hard to tell the magenta from the dark blue in the logo. The blue of the eyes is OK. It’s the magenta that moves toward the blue, being contaminated by cyan during the conversion process. Luckily, this is pretty easy to fix. Convert to CMYK, create an info point on an area that needs to be pure magenta, open up the Hue/Sat dialog, select Magenta in the drop down list, click on something you want to be pure magenta (the upper part of the ‘l’ in Shiela), and move the hue and saturation sliders until you get a visual approximation to the original. I made it a little more saturated than the original, more toward pure magenta. This will make the silver thread in the logo turn purple, which you can fix later with the sponge tool.

The third problem is one you will probably just have to punt. The image is a GIF file, and instead of continuous tones, you’ve got dither patterns for many of the colors. Combine this with the halftoning of the print process, and you may get some very nasty patterns – ragged edges on letters and so forth. So it would be better if you had the original art. If this is a re-do, look at the results with a magnifier to get an idea of how serious a problem this really is. The solution is to re-do the line art and lettering manually, and perpahs use the blur tool on the face, bling bling, and other details. The idea is to get rid of all of the tiny dots from the original gif image, so that they will not degrade the half toning of the final print.

do I need Illustrator for this? I don’t have IN DESIGN
In Design?

No – you don’t need Illy for this. There is some line art, but a lot of this image is continuous tone.

I have seen these colors or closer than dull purple in print so there must be majenta ink and violet. On inkjet I can at least get vivid dark pink.

That’s the problem – the dark pinks are being moved toward blue. You can address this by using a more pure, light pink with magenta and no cyan. I think you can get some good, solid pinks by moving toward pure magenta, with your other main color being dark blue. The trick is to keep the cyan at or close to zero for the pure, bright pinks, and add cyan only as you move toward dark blue. The eyes should probably be as bright and pure a blue as you can manage.

I have to re-do this job
and I have to find out how to do this for the future
I keep getting these print jobs after the websites are designed this is from the printer specs http://www.pkgraphics.com/jobspecs.asp
Job Specs ATTENTION, IF YOUR JOB IS COLOR CRITICAL!

If your job is color critical you "MUST" request a Match print
MR
Mike Russell
Sep 9, 2006
A CMYK version of KW’s image is located here:

http://mike.russell-home.net/tmp/KW.psd

One way to open it is by pasting the URL into Photoshop’s Open dialog. —
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/
K
KatWoman
Sep 9, 2006
"Mike Russell" wrote in message
A CMYK version of KW’s image is located here:

http://mike.russell-home.net/tmp/KW.psd

One way to open it is by pasting the URL into Photoshop’s Open dialog. —
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/
Thanks Mike
I will try some of your suggestions
I do have ALL the original art in layers as PSD at high res in RGB (not animated)
so I can start with a clean file
and I can edit each layer independently (except the black and white background)
the text has a layer style to make the colors

I never did trapping or "fixed my blacks" to the proper CMYK before.(I am not an art director dammit!!!) (how did my retouch work turn into this nightmare?)

I know the artwork is a bit cheesy but I made it to my client’s specs, and she does LOVE it. Most especially she LOVES the colors.

the file you sent the pinks are there and way better than my conversion which eliminated them but they look very reddish/orangey pink and not magenta
the blue-violet is better for sure

if I have the number values from the file on the web (#54874) can I just write those in or select -pantone colors by the numbers instead of trying to manipulate them manually by eye??

I downloaded the wide space CMYK, I can only see it listed under convert to…
is it supposed to be under image>mode> as a selection?? or I am supposed to use convert to?
MR
Mike Russell
Sep 9, 2006
"KatWoman" wrote in message
….
[re converting web image to CMYK]

I do have ALL the original art in layers as PSD at high res in RGB (not animated) so I can start with a clean file
and I can edit each layer independently (except the black and white background)
the text has a layer style to make the colors

This is great – you may be able to convert the layerd file to CMYK, and deal with the lettering, etc, separately, but I think it will be less work use a flattened version of the original and use either Hue/Sat or curves to clean up the colors.

I never did trapping or "fixed my blacks" to the proper CMYK before.(I am not an art director dammit!!!) (how did my retouch work turn into this nightmare?)

The main thing about trap is to remember to do it – it’s Image>Trap.

I know the artwork is a bit cheesy but I made it to my client’s specs, and she does LOVE it. Most especially she LOVES the colors.

I think it looks great – there are several items integrated into it. Not an easy job, and perfectly appropriate for the customer

the file you sent the pinks are there and way better than my conversion which eliminated them but they look very reddish/orangey pink and not magenta the blue-violet is better for sure

I tried to remove cyan to get a brighter magenta color. You may want a bluer shade of magenta than I did. Pure magenta is the same color as bubble gum. CMYK(0,100,0,0) will be the most intense magenta physically possible.

if I have the number values from the file on the web (#54874) can I just write those in or select -pantone colors by the numbers instead of trying to manipulate them manually by eye??

The numbers are definitely a good reference, probably better than what you see on the screen. Drop a sample point on the spots whose color you want to control. The final appearance will not match the spot color, though. If you really want the colors to be spot on, then you’ll also want to run a proof.

I downloaded the wide space CMYK, I can only see it listed under convert to…
is it supposed to be under image>mode> as a selection?? or I am supposed to use convert to?

You would use convert to, but I’m not sure you want to for this purpose. The problem with this profile is that it won’t work for printing, since it uses inks that don’t exist in the real world.

As for the blacks, you can make them pure black while in RGB mode, and then just go with whatever CMYK value Photoshop gives you. The black value the printer gave you is way conservative – 170 or so – and I would not take that as gospel, particularly since this artwork is so dependent on black. If the printer is easy to talk to, see if they will reject a black of 300 percent. They may want to keep the dry times down.


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/
R
RicSeyler
Sep 11, 2006


KatWoman wrote:

"Aaron" wrote in message

MikeD wrote:

I’m saving TIF files for printing in RGB mode (I’m currently using a consumer grade HP RGB printer) and they look great when I print.
If we want to upgrade down the line to use a professional grade printer (they all use CMYK as I understand it?). If I go in and change the TIF images to CMYK mode in Photoshop, am I going to lose anything with the quality of the image itself? or does the CMYK mode just have a bearing on the printer side of things and how it handles the printing of the image?

Thanks for any assistance.
Mike
CMYK is typically only used for output to a press. Most printers, even "professional-level" inkjet plotters such as the Epson 7600 or 9600 (24" and 44", respectively) still take RGB images as input, even though they use a variation of CMYK inks.

IF you had a specific printer in mind, you could take a look at what its documentation recommends, but even if the answer is CMYK, you can convert your documents from RGB to CMYK without a catastrophic loss in quality or range. In fact, I believe changing color modes is lossless, whereas changing color profiles is not.

Anyhow, that’s all I know.


Aaron
I have had a couple of really sad CMYK conversions from RGB most especially majenta or other bright saturated colors on a monitor won’t convert well to CMYK
I had websites then had to get print materials to match from the artwork Normally if I know the job will output for CMYK print shop I start the file in CMYK.
Have not tried the reverse CMYK print job to website.
I do not have InDesign.

my Epson R1800 uses the RGB files
Oh yea, sometimes you can have awful surprises when going from RGB to CMYK. Going from CMYK to RGB generally isn’t a problem though. I don’t remember running
into any noticeable color shifts from CMYK to RGB.



Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35

http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove -SPAM- from email address
————————————–
"Homer no function beer well without."
– H.J. Simpson

R
RicSeyler
Sep 11, 2006
Thanks for the follow up Mike. I was excited there for a moment 🙂 hehehe

You mention WebSWOP coated as the space you use. I’ve always used Sheetfed Coated v2. Should I change?
Now my colors match very well, but I’m always up for a little more vibrant colors. 🙂

And on my blacks I always use C0 M0 Y0 K100. Especially all Text. I hate it when someone
"builds blacks" on text. On large solids the couple of big shops I use for full color work have
slightly different percentages they prefer. such as C60 M50 Y50 K100.

Mike Russell wrote:

"KatWoman" wrote in message

[probably re
< http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/widegamutcmyk/index.ht m> ]

thanks a bunch Mike
going to try it out this weekend
My client decided to re-do her postcard design
Maybe now I can get those POP purples from her website to show up better

Be careful using the wide gamut profile. It is designed to allow RGB folks to edit temporarily in CMYK, without losing blues and purples that would ordinarily get fried in the conversion from RGB to CMYK. The profile was created by specifying fake ink colors in PhotoShop’s CMYK setup. The result looks good on screen, but the CMYK values will not work for real printing.
One way to keep impact in purples, when printing, is to move them toward magenta, using the eyedropper in hue/sat or other means, trading hue accuracy for saturation. Another trick is to add the complimentary colors green and yellow to the rest of the image.


Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35

http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove -SPAM- from email address
————————————–
"Homer no function beer well without."
– H.J. Simpson

MR
Mike Russell
Sep 12, 2006
"RicSeyler" wrote in message
Thanks for the follow up Mike. I was excited there for a moment 🙂 hehehe

You mention WebSWOP coated as the space you use. I’ve always used Sheetfed Coated v2. Should I change?
Now my colors match very well, but I’m always up for a little more vibrant colors. 🙂

Results matter. If your colors are matching, keep doing what you’re doing. The Adobe sheetfeed profiles have been singled out in the past as inaccurate. The coated sheetfeed profile reflects a higher dot gain than the coated WEB profile. It should be lower. The uncoated SWOP and sheetfeed profiles, appear to be bit for bit identical. This is another obvious error.

And on my blacks I always use C0 M0 Y0 K100. Especially all Text. I hate it when
someone"builds blacks" on text. On large solids the couple of big shops I use for full color > work have slightly different percentages they prefer. such as C60 M50 Y50 K100.

Yes, type and line art should be pure K, otherwise registration problems will cause color fringes. In an image, or in large areas of black, where this fringing problem is unimportant, a somewhat darker black – called a "rich black" – will generally give a slightly darker black, and a better looking result.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/
R
RicSeyler
Sep 12, 2006


Mike Russell wrote:

"RicSeyler" wrote in message

Thanks for the follow up Mike. I was excited there for a moment 🙂 hehehe

You mention WebSWOP coated as the space you use. I’ve always used Sheetfed Coated v2. Should I change?
Now my colors match very well, but I’m always up for a little more vibrant colors. 🙂

Results matter. If your colors are matching, keep doing what you’re doing. The Adobe sheetfeed profiles have been singled out in the past as inaccurate. The coated sheetfeed profile reflects a higher dot gain than the coated WEB profile. It should be lower. The uncoated SWOP and sheetfeed profiles, appear to be bit for bit identical. This is another obvious error.
Thanks Mike!!

And on my blacks I always use C0 M0 Y0 K100. Especially all Text. I hate it when
someone"builds blacks" on text. On large solids the couple of big shops I use for full color > work have slightly different percentages they prefer. such as C60 M50 Y50 K100.

Yes, type and line art should be pure K, otherwise registration problems will cause color fringes. In an image, or in large areas of black, where this fringing problem is unimportant, a somewhat darker black – called a "rich black" – will generally give a slightly darker black, and a better looking result.


Ric Seyler
Online Racing: RicSeyler
GPL Handicap 6.35

http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler
remove -SPAM- from email address
————————————–
"Homer no function beer well without."
– H.J. Simpson

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