Inkjet Longevity

LH
Posted By
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 23, 2004
Views
1000
Replies
46
Status
Closed
I ran some tests on my refilled inkjet carts for the Canon S9000, with very poor results. Researching further, here’s a site I found which counters the Wilhelm method. One interesting finding: UV glass is no better than plain!

<http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2d.htm>

I’m pretty ill over my findings. I have to switch to pigmented printers….

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H
Ho
Jul 23, 2004
Refilled with whose ink, Larry?
MA
Mark_Allen
Jul 23, 2004
This is a BIG area. Any experience I have had using 2nd party inks has indeed been a disaster.

Regards

Mark
BB
brent_bertram
Jul 23, 2004
I’m getting good color from Enhanced Generations ProPhoto inks from MediaStreet using custom profiles, of course. The ink seems more "syrupy" however, than OEM ink on my Epson 890 and clogged nozzles are a frequent occurence . From the above article, I’d expect 40 years on the right media, maybe .

😕

Brent
MA
Mark_Allen
Jul 23, 2004
It’s a pity the consumer has to revert to cheaper inks but personally i don’t think it’s worth it. We’re constantly thinking of ways to put out good quality prints with the least cost but apart from Lab packages so far it’s a losing battle.

Regards

Mark
RH
r_harvey
Jul 23, 2004
See Inkjet inks that will hold up in sunlight? <http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?13@@.3bb52481/0> in the Photoshop/Macintosh Forum.
GA
George_Austin
Jul 24, 2004
Larry,

What a fantastic site (along with its links)—and not just for archival advice, although that alone is extraordinarily rigorous!! Thanks for passing it along, Larry.

George
M
marionbabich
Jul 24, 2004
Larry,
I have the HP Designjet 130nr printer. HP and Wilhelm say longivity on this printer on HP’s photo proof gloss is 70+ years. I have been printing large format since 1995 and found using nothing but the ink and paper made for the specific printer works the best. < https://www.designjet.hp.com/pdp/render.html?new_product=130 &page_name=overview+and+features&pageseq=9138685>

Just my opinion.

Marion
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 24, 2004
The ink is from MIS.

I am not trying to buy the cheapest ink, but rather become more economical by doing refills. If Canon supplied their ink in bulk, I’d be a user.

The surprising thing I discovered on the site is the drop in life expectancy that occurred with normal room illumination. My normal room seems about 1/2 their standard of 275 Lux. Still, I see a shift in the MIS set to green, using a B&W print as the test.

I spoke at length with the chemist that works with MIS, and he concurred with my findings. He claims MIS Cyan inks are better than Canon, but Canon is better than MIS in Magenta.

I have a set of color bars of all 6 colors at 100% in the window. I am going to measure them with a densitometer next week.

Their rigor is at least as good as Wilhelm, and slanted towards the real world. What I am not so sure is that the relationship between illumination and fading is linear.

Marion, look and see if the site referenced has anything to say about your specific printer. Even the Ultrachromes have problems obtaining life past 30 years at 275 Lux, while the standard that Wilhelm uses indicates the century mark for many Ultrachrome/paper combos.

I feel much better that I also decided the sunlight test, while harsh, was viable. I was a bit concerned I was employing a bit of overkill. But then, as a long time product evaluation engineer, I am familiar with overkill methods! 😉

I have some decisions to make.
M
marionbabich
Jul 24, 2004
Larry,
My HP Designjet 2500 prints from 1995 still look as good as the day I printed them. However, My Designjet 800ps prints faded after about 6 months. That is why I sold it. I’m now using the HP 130nr and hoping for longivity in my prints. Just got the 130 last month so time will tell. I hope HP and Wilhelm are right about this one. Side note, the prints are outstanding on their photo gloss proffing paper and right out of Photoshop print with preview and HP icc profiles.

Marion
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 24, 2004
How about matte surfaces, or cotton rag papers?
M
marionbabich
Jul 24, 2004
I have a 18×24 I printed on Arches 90# cold press water color paper I printed on the HP 2500 in ’95. Still looks just as good today as when I printed it. I printed on Oce 46# bond pape with good results also. Haven’t tried any rag or cotton papers.

Marion
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 25, 2004
Impressive. Has the 1995 print been on display or in a dark place, like a print box?

I have HP at the back of my mind. The new printers do a great job, but seem limited as to media. Epson have the only printers in their price range that can compete with IRIS, Roland and others of that genre. They all output successfully to a wide range of media.
QP
Q_Photo
Jul 26, 2004
Yeah, Epson… I swear by Epson printers. While I sometimes I swear AT mine, I do swear by it. Nothing is perfect, I guess.
M
marionbabich
Jul 26, 2004
The 3’x4′ print has been in my office since 1995. Normal room light with windows but no direct sunlight. At 2400dpi I think the 130 can compete with the epson’s. Like Q said, I somtimes also swore at my old epson 1280. I finally got so frustrated it is sitting down in the basement in the closet. Maybe some day I will need a boat anchor.

Marion
MM
Mac_McDougald
Jul 26, 2004
Like HP scanners, it is ill suited for that, not heavy enough. And too bulky to be effective doorstop either.

M
CK
Christine_Krof_Shock
Jul 26, 2004
How much do you want for the boat anchor?
D
Dee
Jul 26, 2004
Have you … or any of the others that have responded here, ever considered a ‘Continuous Flow System’?

Dee

wrote in message
I ran some tests on my refilled inkjet carts for the Canon S9000, with
very poor results. Researching further, here’s a site I found which counters the Wilhelm method. One interesting finding: UV glass is no better than plain!
<http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2d.htm>

I’m pretty ill over my findings. I have to switch to pigmented
printers….
QP
Q_Photo
Jul 26, 2004
marionbabich
What kind of problems have you had with your 1280? I have noticed that if I let my 1270 set and it gets no use, then it gets problematic. Most of the time I print what would equal 60 to 80 8×10’s a month and it pretty much gives me good service. Were you using Epson paper and ink?
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 26, 2004
I have an 870 as well as my Canon S9000. The 870 gets little use and when it does it prints out a bunch of light magenta lines. Clraning doesn’t help.
F
Fotoeros
Jul 26, 2004
No offence but I really don’t understand my people prefer to use a home printer as it works out more expense per print than having the work done on real analog photographic paper and besides it lasts longer.
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 26, 2004
First, you lose control. I had to make a set of prints for a collector and decided on Crystal Archive. I went to three different vendors and finally got one to actually present a neutral B&W. This despite earlier efforts from two of them that did produce a neutral B&W.

The sad thing is the ones producing sepia instead of neutral claimed that that was par for the course. If you wanted to pay for tweaks….! Right, and next time I get to tweak the tweaks?

Second, you have immediate feedback as to the impact of the image as it lays on the sheet.

Third, the media itself.

What I am going to have to do is most likely buy a roll of the paper I like to use and make my prints on an Epson 9600.
J
johnkissane3
Jul 26, 2004
Fourth, it’s fun.
M
marionbabich
Jul 26, 2004
QPhoto,
The main problem was fading pictures especially with the magenta going first. Then the print heads started giving problems. Had to do cleaning often. Sent it in to an epson service center and it worked for about a month then same problems.

Fotoeros,

I agree sometimes it is not economical to print your own. Most of the time we have the lab do the prints. But, some of our customers are for memorial prints. 18×24 and 20×24 that they need the next day for viewings.

Marion
QP
Q_Photo
Jul 27, 2004
MARIONBABICH
Did this fading occur on EPSON paper with EPSON inks? Just curious.

FOTOEROS
No offence taken or intended. I regularly do restorations of photos that were done with traditional photographic chemicals and papers. The reason for restoration? Because they were badly FADED. Some of these prints were from a nationally well known photography studio. If chemicals aren’t mixed correctly and used at the proper temperature and quality photo paper used the prints may fade faster than an inkjet print. That is not even taking into account the latest generation of “archival” inkjets.
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 27, 2004
Q photo, were these silver halide or Color prints? If color, what process?
QP
Q_Photo
Jul 27, 2004
Lawrence
Color, C41 I assume. I don’t know process for the older films. I’m a photographer, but not a lab tech. However, my wife has 20 years working in photo labs and she has some scary stories about how careless some lab workers can be.
MM
Mac_McDougald
Jul 27, 2004
You were talking about paper prints, yes?

C-41 is chemistry for color negative films.
There is no silver left in the film at all, only color dye layers.

Mac
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 27, 2004
Right. Currently, it’s RA-4. I don’t recall the earlier names.

I have seen some bad stuff myself. I seem to recall that the stuff stuck to a sheet of paper resembled crumbs from someone’s lunch! And it wasn’t mine!

I will not disclose the manufacturer here, for fear of retribution. 😉
QP
Q_Photo
Jul 27, 2004
I replied C 41, I ASSUME. It was late, I was tired. Mac is correct, C 41 pertains to film processing. Sorry.
H
Ho
Jul 27, 2004
I have a 1270 which has been remarkably free from clogs for all the time I’ve used it. A few weeks ago I had a problem with a cartridge that was nearing the end of its life. Each time I fired up the printer and did a nozzle check I found it required cleaning. Finally, I removed the cartridge and used some Windex (a drop or three in each capillary tube) to dissolve the crud. It’s worked like a charm ever since.

The only other problem I’ve had was the print head picking up paper fibers and transferring black ink onto the print. I solved this by manufacturing a cleaning sheet using HP Cleaning Strips (no longer available, if my info is correct). The details of this experiment can be found in the PressReady Forum archives.
KL
Katherine_Lawson
Jul 28, 2004
Hi Ho,

(oops, that sounds like the opening line of the song from the Seven Dwarfs, "Hi Ho Hi Ho, it’s off to work we go". Maybe I should have said "Hello Ho instead.) 🙂

Your cleaning technique sounds like just what I need for my old 1280. I have the same problems with mine as you did with your 1270.

Did you or anyone else you know ever find a good substitute for the HP cleaning sheets?
H
Ho
Jul 28, 2004
Katherine,

Hi Ho is fine (I’ve grown fond of it, actually)… Anyway, I have a few of the HP strips stashed away so I haven’t needed to find a replacement yet. The strips look sort of like a white velcro, except the loops are a little larger and the fabric is softer; they are about 1/4 inch wide and 2 1/2 inches long with adhesive on the back. I originally placed them with the long side parallel to the direction of the travel of the print head, but I have decided that perpendicular placement is a better method. I use cardstock as the mounting base for the strips.

Here <http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?14@@.2ccf9e40/0> is a link to the original thread:
KL
Katherine_Lawson
Jul 28, 2004
Thanks for the tips Ho.

Yeah, I saw the original thread last night, but I was hoping that someone had found a good substitute. I’ll have to start looking around for something like that.

One of the biggest problems I have had with my 1280 is the lint problem.

I now have the 2200, but I still use the 1280 for some things where ink longevity isn’t a problem. I’m hoping that the 2200 won’t develop the same problem.
BL
Bill_Lamp
Jul 29, 2004
Here is the name and label info for the cleaning solution bottle from an ink-jet cleaning kit. OfficeDepot and OfficeMax USED to carry them. They were a thickish corrigated into waves "paper". They would de-lint my 1270. I keep hopeing I will find a pack just to keep on hand for my 2200 if needed.

Using them sure beat taking the 1270 apart to treat the BOTTOM of the "jet block/plate" with Windex to de-crud it.

KleenJet

by AudioSource
1327 North Carolan Ave.
Burlingame, CA 94010

Bill, who does NOT work for any of the above mentioned companies
H
Ho
Jul 29, 2004
Katherine, I think about any synthetic (lint free) material with a coarse texture could to the trick. The keys to success are correct thickness (trial and error) and secure bonding to the substrate (so it doesn’t come off during cleaning). I also think a light color is a good idea so you can see the gunk that’s being removed.

I think the next time I pass a JoAnn’s fabric shop, I’ll drop in.

Edit: Bill, you might want to check this out:
<http://www.simplybargains.com/11986.html>
KL
Katherine_Lawson
Jul 29, 2004
Thanks Bill and Ho, I’ll look into your suggestions!

Kathi

I just thought of something after I clicked "post". Maybe some kind of fabric interfacing from a sewing supply place. I think they are lint free!
H
Ho
Jul 29, 2004
I thought a Kimwipe was a paper towel…?
RH
r_harvey
Jul 29, 2004
Kimwipes are a soft, unwoven, non-abrasive towel that leaves no fibers to gum up things. It comes in oversized Kleenix-like sheets, in Kleenix-like boxes. It’s great for cleaning big light tables, and process camera copy boards.
KL
Katherine_Lawson
Jul 30, 2004
Thanks r_ , The anti static ones might be useful for cleaning glass when framing prints too!
M
marionbabich
Jul 30, 2004
Q Photo,
Yes, it was fading with epson inks and epson color life paper.

Marion
QP
Q_Photo
Jul 31, 2004
marionbabich,
Thanks for reply. I now can understand your dissatisfaction since you were using COLOR LIFE. After all, the name implies no fading. I use Epson Matte Heavyweight for most of my printing and have had no fading problems, to date. I never thought I would like such a ‘flat’ paper but the saturation is very good. I occasionally use PREMIUM GLOSSY for car and motorcycle shots and have noticed rather rapid fading with it, at times. I tried COLOR LIFE for a very short period of time but couldn’t obtain good color matching.
H
Ho
Jul 31, 2004
but couldn’t obtain good color matching.

Epson America provided a custom 1270 profile for that paper:

< http://support.epson.com/hardware/printer/inkjet/pho127/inde x.html>
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Jul 31, 2004
Hi Ho is fine, but at the airport, it’s "Hello, Jack"!

As my source indicated, checking the samples after about two weeks in the window, I found MIS magenta to be the culprit, followed by black. Cyan, light cyan and yellow hardly changed at all.

Since light magenta is used more than magenta, I am going to try the test again with a print using only Canon Light Magenta, and MIS for everything else. I have already swapped between brands before without any errors showing up in the print. So I don’t expect to see a significant calibration problem (!)
BO
Burton_Ogden
Aug 1, 2004
Larry,

I just now read this thread and spent an hour exploring the Livick site, which is fantastic. I bookmarked it and will return for many more hours of exploration. Thanks much for posting the link.

— Burton —
LH
Lawrence_Hudetz
Aug 2, 2004
I’m glad you liked it, Burton. The people over in the Yahoo Canon Printer forum are mostly trashing it, claiming it’s pseudo science, or something like that!

I personally see it as a strong pointer to narrowing choices down a bit. And, conversations with two people in the industry close to the ink ends of the product both point to the Canon Magenta(s) as being much more stable under UV illumination.

My data, small as it is agrees with theirs, and so from now on, I will use OEM Magenta, at least the Photo Magenta. So far, I can swap between MIS and Canon in any spot and have but a tiny change in the color balance, mostly noticeable in B&W.

I ran some sensitometry checks on the strips of color and found that yellow was extremely stable, showing no shift, followed by Cyan. Black is not so good, but I don’t know if the OEM is any better.

Right now, the printer is down. I suspect a bad head as about 25% of the lines in the Nozzle Check are missing from the Photo Magenta, and a couple of individual lines are missing from both cyans.

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