Gamut Warning Problem

AG
Posted By
andre.gunther
Jun 16, 2005
Views
493
Replies
7
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Closed
Hello,

i have some pictures that I would like to have printed. I have donwloaded a color profile from the printshop of my choice. I can see some relatively large areas where Photoshop shows me a Gamut warning for that profile.
I can get rid of this by reducing the saturation of the image, but I was wondering if there is a better way to do this.
I am looking for some transformation that keeps the overall appearance of the image without having to reduce saturation.
If you know how to handle this, I would highly appreciate your input.

Thanks

Andre
http://www.aguntherphotography.com

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MR
Mike Russell
Jun 16, 2005
wrote:
Hello,

i have some pictures that I would like to have printed. I have donwloaded a color profile from the printshop of my choice. I can see some relatively large areas where Photoshop shows me a Gamut warning for that profile.
I can get rid of this by reducing the saturation of the image, but I was wondering if there is a better way to do this.
I am looking for some transformation that keeps the overall appearance of the image without having to reduce saturation.
If you know how to handle this, I would highly appreciate your input.

It’s hard to know what you mean by "relatively large". Rather than changing the entire image, try using the sponge tool to desaturate the particular areas a bit. If there is a particular area – for example a very saturated blue object, you may have better luck adjusting the color in curves, and adding contrast in the black or complimentary (aka unwanted) color to at least retain texture and tonal variation where color was lost.

In general, use Relative Colorimetric, if you’re not already, to preserve the colors that do fit withink the gamut.

If the profile is public, post the URL and some of us will take a look. —

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
AG
andre.gunther
Jun 16, 2005
Hi Mike,

thanks for your answer. It makes sense. By relatively large I mean large enough, so that one would prob. see posterization when printed this way.
I am worried about large areas in my images being clipped.

I am using the ezprints.com profile. Its available on their website. They are cheap and offer at least a profile.

I have always used perceptual so far for conversions, since I did my editing in Adobe RGB and I wanted to preserve the appearance. If I use Relative Colorimetric, don’t I change the appearance of the image and won’t I get the same posterization artefacts I mentioned above, since other colors don’t change accordingly?
If I compress the colorspace, shouldn’t I do it for the whole image? Does it mean that EZprints can not print saturated colors?

As for my workflow, I am doing all the editing in AdobeRGB and before saving i convert to sRGB. The more I think about it, I am not sure this is a wise thing though. Care to comment?
Ezprints also wants to have sRGB files. So I am using the ezprints.icc profile for proofing colors only. I am not sure that is correct, but I have never converted to the ezprints profile. Am I doing the right thing here?
Also when I use Proof Colors, do I see exactly what the print will look like?

Well, I still have a lot to learn. I appreciate all the help I can get.

On a somewhat related note. I read on outbackphoto a while ago about ProRGB color space. Someone was praising it, since it is an even wider color space than AdobeRGB. At the end, in order to print it, don’t you have to compress the color space anyways? So what is the point in doing all your editing in a larger color space?

Andre
http://www.aguntherphotography.com
MR
Mike Russell
Jun 17, 2005
wrote:
Hi Mike,

thanks for your answer. It makes sense. By relatively large I mean large enough, so that one would prob. see posterization when printed this way. I am worried about large areas in my images being clipped.

Gamut clipping may not be serious, provided there is luminance variation you may not notice it at all. Using the sponge tool to desaturate some areas and then using RelCol intent is often better than remapping all the colors in the image as is normally the case for perceptual.

I am using the ezprints.com profile. Its available on their website. They are cheap and offer at least a profile.

Yes, I took a look at their profile, and it appears to be of good quality. The shadows in RelCom have a bit more red added to them than in perceptual, which is a bit surprising.

I have always used perceptual so far for conversions, since I did my editing in Adobe RGB and I wanted to preserve the appearance. If I use Relative Colorimetric, don’t I change the appearance of the image and won’t I get the same posterization artefacts I mentioned above, since other colors don’t change accordingly?

The answer depends on your particular image. You can get pretty good results by relying on perceptual to remap your out of gamut colors by mapping the entire image to fit within the smaller gamut of the print, but this amounts to "dumbing down" all the colors of your image, and generally results in duller colors.

Relcol allows most of your colors to be brighter, and takes the risk of some colors being mapped to the edge of the gamut, preserving luminance. You can control that risk by desaturating only those colors until they are within gamut.

If I compress the colorspace, shouldn’t I do it for the whole image?

It depends on the image. If you do this for all your images you’ll get an average result, but if you want some colors that sing, even if it means some clipped colors, RelCol is generally better.

Does it mean that EZprints can not print saturated colors?
Their color gamut looks about like any other printer’s.

As for my workflow, I am doing all the editing in AdobeRGB and before saving i convert to sRGB. The more I think about it, I am not sure this is a wise thing though. Care to comment?

You’ve touched on an area where reasonable people disagree. My own preference is to do everything in sRGB, and the main reason for this is to avoid accidentally putting an image on the web that loses saturation. Adobe RGB is a perfectly good color space as well, and there are still others who work with ProPhotoRGB.

Ezprints also wants to have sRGB files. So I am using the ezprints.icc profile for proofing colors only. I am not sure that is correct, but I have never converted to the ezprints profile. Am I doing the right thing here?

My recommendation would be to calibrate your monitor carefully, either with Adobe Gamma or a device like the Spyder or ColorOne, and send your prints as-is in sRGB. Send some test prints that include very saturated colors, and judge for yourself whether you are happy with the results or not.

Also when I use Proof Colors, do I see exactly what the print will look like?

Not really, but it will be reasonably close. Proofing is based in part on a standard observer in a standard viewing environment, which is considerably brighter and bluer than normal light.

Well, I still have a lot to learn. I appreciate all the help I can get.

Every piece of knowledge you learn will improve your images. My main advice is to trust what you can see, or measure, and not rely too much on mere advice or authority, particularly when it involves spending your money 🙂

On a somewhat related note. I read on outbackphoto a while ago about ProRGB color space. Someone was praising it, since it is an even wider color space than AdobeRGB. At the end, in order to print it, don’t you have to compress the color space anyways? So what is the point in doing all your editing in a larger color space?

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

BTW – you’ve touched on several topics that overlap my article called "The Mystery of the Blue Glass". I’d be interested in your reaction to it. It describes an unsolved mystery (though I have some thoughts) involving the difficulty of printing dark, saturated blues using several color spaces, and a particular printer profile:
http://www.curvemeister.com/tutorials/ColorZoo/index.htm


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
AG
andre.gunther
Jun 17, 2005
Hello Mike,

thanks again for your detailed answer.
I will need to experiment with some of the proposed techniques myself to find out what works best for me. Somehow I was hoping for a miracle button or so, that uses a specific printer profile and makes my image look good on that printer.
The way I understood RelCol Map to work is that only the out of gamut colors are mapped back to fit the specific color space. If I have a large range of colors outside (who knows how much really lies outside), this can lead to posterization, as they are all clipped to the border of the color space.
Anyways, I guess the right thing to do is play around a bit and figure out what works best for me.
I have calibrated all my monitors with the Spyer2 (I returned Spyder after finding out it doesn’t work well with LCD). I am mainly working on my laptop for convenience, even though the display really sucks (Compaq V2000). I have calibrated it though and it should be reasonably close. If I keep a constant viewing angle it should be allright. Interestingly, the out of Gamut colors will stand out when I view my laptop screen from below (tilting the display back all the way). This came as a surprise to me and seems to indicate that those colors really need some work. I have a reddish-yellowish bright patch. The out of gamut warning shows for the whole patch and when I tilt my screen the patch is all I can see at some extreme angles.
As for your little puzzle 😉 :
Is the printer a CMYK printer? Have you viewed the result in different lighting conditions (e.g. fluorescent, daylight).
I don’t understand enough about printing, my best guess is this: A CMYK printer has to mix blue out of some other colors. For a dark blue, there is prob. a RGB of 0 0 30 or something like that. Now if you have to mix this out of different colors, each color in the mix will be even more subdued and spread out (the printer does not make bright or dark pixels) among the black (to get it dark).
So maybe one out of 50 pixels will have a color value.
Depending on your paper, that may even bleed into the black and vanish or be noticable as "random" color specks.
Like I said I have no idea what really happens. Seems like printing technology has yet to catch up to modern camera technology. I also noticed some posterization in the bright blue areas (or is it just me?).

On a related note, where can I get ProPhotoRGB profiles? I am not sure I saw it in Photoshop.

Also I like your website and your tutorials. Seems like I should give Labmeter a try, although I have a little trouble understanding these color space representations. I am not sure if yours is different, but generally they map a 3D color space onto a 2D display and thats where the confusion starts for me.

Andre
http://www.aguntherphotography.com
MR
Mike Russell
Jun 17, 2005
wrote in message
Hello Mike,

thanks again for your detailed answer.
I will need to experiment with some of the proposed techniques myself to find out what works best for me. Somehow I was hoping for a miracle button or so, that uses a specific printer profile and makes my image look good on that printer.

I like to compare today’s printer technology to watches. Right now our "color watches" are accurate to five or ten minutes a day. Pretty darn good. If you want to strive for greater accuracy, you can either tweak Adobe Gamma (like the "fast/slow" adjustment of a watch) every once in a while, and set your color watch manually for important images, which is my current approach – or try to get a watch that is more accurate. This costs money, and may or may not pan out. There is a lot of fluff out there right now, and much money is being spent on profiles that introduce banding into your image.

Furthermore, and this is the most important, complete color accuracy reaches a point of dimiishing returns, and manual adjustment will generally yield a better result than any automatic process, however well calibrated. I think the greatest rewards, in terms of actual image appearance, come from knowing how to do good color correction, and the Curvemeister plugin is dedicated to this goal. As Hecate said about sharpening, connecting your brain to what you are doing is the more important thing.

The way I understood RelCol Map to work is that only the out of gamut colors are mapped back to fit the specific color space. If I have a large range of colors outside (who knows how much really lies outside), this can lead to posterization, as they are all clipped to the border of the color space.

Yes, the color is mapped to the closest matchine hue and saturation, preserving luminance. This is generally a good compromise because the variation in luminance renders the hue clipping unnoticeable. The trick is to anticipate when this will not work, and use desaturate or some other technique to compensate for it.

Anyways, I guess the right thing to do is play around a bit and figure out what works best for me.

Certainly – or at least try to verify the things you read here and in other forums, and judge for yourself whether it is meaningful. We are at an early point in the evolution of color correction and color calibration as applied to photography. This makes it an exciting time, because there is so much new out there, but it also means we have to weed out the stuff that sounds good, but doesn’t really pan out.

I have calibrated all my monitors with the Spyer2 (I returned Spyder after finding out it doesn’t work well with LCD). I am mainly working on my laptop for convenience, even though the display really sucks (Compaq V2000). I have calibrated it though and it should be reasonably close. If I keep a constant viewing angle it should be allright.

If you have a CRT lying around, try plugging it in and see how the colors compare. In particular, make sure that you are able to distinguish colors that are different on the CRT, and that you don’t have an overall color cast.

Interestingly, the out of Gamut colors will stand out when I view my laptop screen from below (tilting the display back all the way). This came as a surprise to me and seems to indicate that those colors really need some work. I have a reddish-yellowish bright patch. The out of gamut warning shows for the whole patch and when I tilt my screen the patch is all I can see at some extreme angles.

OOG colors will tend to show up because you are driving one of the display channels at its brightest value. Changing the angle of your LCD tends to blot out the darker values more abruptly, because LCD’s are based on a light polarization phenomenon.

As for your little puzzle 😉 :
Is the printer a CMYK printer? Have you viewed the result in different lighting conditions (e.g. fluorescent, daylight).

No – it’s an RGB inkjet. I’m thinking of changing the puzzle to invite people to try printing the image on their own printers. Blue cobalt is a devil of a color to print – the glass turns opaque so easily.

I don’t understand enough about printing, my best guess is this: A CMYK printer has to mix blue out of some other colors. For a dark blue, there is prob. a RGB of 0 0 30 or something like that. Now if you have to mix this out of different colors, each color in the mix will be even more subdued and spread out (the printer does not make bright or dark pixels) among the black (to get it dark).
So maybe one out of 50 pixels will have a color value.
Depending on your paper, that may even bleed into the black and vanish or be noticable as "random" color specks.

What you are saying is accurate. The question remains whether we can actually analyze what is happening to the soft proof stage first, and then take that further to the actual printed image. This article is a work in progress, and I would like to invite others to share their ideas and thoughts.

Like I said I have no idea what really happens. Seems like printing technology has yet to catch up to modern camera technology. I also noticed some posterization in the bright blue areas (or is it just me?).

Possibly – it’s internal glass reflections, which can look like posterization.

On a related note, where can I get ProPhotoRGB profiles? I am not sure I saw it in Photoshop.

I believe it is downloadable from
http://www.dodgecolor.com/downloads.html

Also I like your website and your tutorials. Seems like I should give Labmeter a try, although I have a little trouble understanding these color space representations. I am not sure if yours is different, but generally they map a 3D color space onto a 2D display and thats where the confusion starts for me.

Thanks for the kind words. LabMeter shows a slice of the color space. Open up the curve adjustment layer and move the whtie end of the Lightness curve up and down, and you’ll see different slices at each lightness value. —
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
AG
andre.gunther
Jun 17, 2005
Hi Mike,

thanks again for the answer. Does anyone know how to cite passages when writing the messages online (possibly through my gmail account?). I don’t want to cut and past as this means I have to put the ">" manually.

Back to the topic, I wish there was a photoshop plugin/action/button that would let me increase saturation of my image while intelligently remaining within a specified color profile. Even though it would result in some compression (e.g. logarithmic) one could still achieve pretty good results.
I don’t have that much time and I prefer shooting over retouching. I therefore try to automate as much of my workflow as I can (hence the need for an action 😉 )
I am using the CRT only when I am getting stuff printed. Often I just play around or prepare images for the web. I don’t take this too seriously. But when I spend a lot of money for some poster size prints, I want them to come out correct the first time (without having to order smaller prints first to check out the appearance).
Anyways, I have learned something new today, thats what counts. Thanks for the link.

The whole color management problem is one fuzzy nebular thing in my head. To my understanding a pixel has 256 red, 256 green and 256 blue values (for 8 bit RGB). So whats the deal, how can a pixel be too red to be printed?
How can I have 8bit Adobe RGB and 8bit sRGB and yet the Adobe can store more color information? Each pixel stores exactly 24bits of color (in both color spaces).

Andre
http://www.aguntherphotography.com
MR
Mike Russell
Jun 17, 2005
Hi Mike,

thanks again for the answer. Does anyone know how to cite passages when writing the messages online (possibly through my gmail account?). I don’t want to cut and past as this means I have to put the ">" manually.

Stuggling with different mailers right now myself. Can’t help you there, other than to say I’m more likely to actually read something I’m replying to if I have to format it manually 🙂

Back to the topic, I wish there was a photoshop plugin/action/button that would let me increase saturation of my image while intelligently remaining within a specified color profile. Even though it would result in some compression (e.g. logarithmic) one could still achieve pretty good results.

Not a bad idea at all. One quick trick to bumping saturation is to assign a higher gamut profile, such as Adobe RGB, to an sRGB image. Bumps the colors right up. My favorite is to make a and b steeper in Lab mode. Neither of these exactly addresses what you’re requesting, an "auto saturation" adjustment.

I don’t have that much time and I prefer shooting over retouching. I therefore try to automate as much of my workflow as I can (hence the need for an action 😉 )

I think an action that bumps the saturation would do the job in a practical way. Keep an eye out for images that don’t fit the pattern, and modify them separately, perhaps with an action with different settings.

I am using the CRT only when I am getting stuff printed. Often I just play around or prepare images for the web. I don’t take this too seriously. But when I spend a lot of money for some poster size prints, I want them to come out correct the first time (without having to order smaller prints first to check out the appearance).
Anyways, I have learned something new today, thats what counts. Thanks for the link.

I work that way too. Most of my snapshots are printed straight out of the camera, but for a large image I’ll spend considerable time making it look good.

The whole color management problem is one fuzzy nebular thing in my head. To my understanding a pixel has 256 red, 256 green and 256 blue values (for 8 bit RGB). So whats the deal, how can a pixel be too red to be printed?

One way to translate that is that it is too red to be printed at a distinctly different color from other nearby red colors of the same brightness.

How can I have 8bit Adobe RGB and 8bit sRGB and yet the Adobe can store more color information? Each pixel stores exactly 24bits of color (in both color spaces).

They do, and in fact Adobe RGB devotes some color values, such as RGB(255,0,0) to colors that, until recently, were impossible to see on a CRT. In practice, its not a big deal whether you use sRGB and Adobe RGB.

Right now I’m noticing that a lot of the free printer profiles out there, even the ones provided by the manufacturer, are of poor quality. —

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

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