Birdies and lenses

S
Posted By
Stephan
Mar 1, 2004
Views
835
Replies
28
Status
Closed
From: "Douglas MacDonald"
Subject: Re: need a key for 7.0
Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:45 PM

Gotta tell you Eric…
10D EOS, 800 maybe 1600 ISO, 120~300 f2.8 Sigma lens. Effective reach = 450mm.
snip<

Why 450mm?
The multiplication factor is not a magnification factor or is it? The angle is narrower but the actual subject isn’t any larger. Am I right?

Stephan

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N
nomail
Mar 1, 2004
Stephan wrote:

From: "Douglas MacDonald"
Subject: Re: need a key for 7.0
Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:45 PM

Gotta tell you Eric…
10D EOS, 800 maybe 1600 ISO, 120~300 f2.8 Sigma lens. Effective reach = 450mm.
snip<

Why 450mm?
The multiplication factor is not a magnification factor or is it? The angle is narrower but the actual subject isn’t any larger. Am I right?

The actual subject isn’t larger, but it is filling the frame more, because the frame is smaller. Effectively that is like using a 450mm on a 35mm camera.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
S
Stephan
Mar 1, 2004
"Johan W. Elzenga" wrote in message
Stephan wrote:

From: "Douglas MacDonald"
Subject: Re: need a key for 7.0
Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:45 PM

Gotta tell you Eric…
10D EOS, 800 maybe 1600 ISO, 120~300 f2.8 Sigma lens. Effective reach = 450mm.
snip<

Why 450mm?
The multiplication factor is not a magnification factor or is it? The angle is narrower but the actual subject isn’t any larger. Am I right?

The actual subject isn’t larger, but it is filling the frame more, because the frame is smaller. Effectively that is like using a 450mm on a 35mm camera.

That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an image taking with the 300mm.No benefit really.

Stephan
F
Flycaster
Mar 1, 2004
"Stephan" wrote in message
"Johan W. Elzenga" wrote in message
Stephan wrote:

From: "Douglas MacDonald"
Subject: Re: need a key for 7.0
Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:45 PM

Gotta tell you Eric…
10D EOS, 800 maybe 1600 ISO, 120~300 f2.8 Sigma lens. Effective reach
=
450mm.
snip<

Why 450mm?
The multiplication factor is not a magnification factor or is it? The angle is narrower but the actual subject isn’t any larger. Am I right?

The actual subject isn’t larger, but it is filling the frame more, because the frame is smaller. Effectively that is like using a 450mm on a 35mm camera.

That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an
image
taking with the 300mm.No benefit really.

Umm, no. If you software crop, by definition you loose pixels. For example, if they were to shoot the same image using a 185mm lens (effective 300mm) and then crop, the resulting image would be the same *size* as the one taken with the 300mm lens (effective 480mm), but the resolution (ppi) would be less.

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D
DSphotog
Mar 2, 2004
"Stephan" wrote in message
"Johan W. Elzenga" wrote in message
Stephan wrote:

From: "Douglas MacDonald"
Subject: Re: need a key for 7.0
Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:45 PM

Gotta tell you Eric…
10D EOS, 800 maybe 1600 ISO, 120~300 f2.8 Sigma lens. Effective reach
=
450mm.
snip<

Why 450mm?
The multiplication factor is not a magnification factor or is it? The angle is narrower but the actual subject isn’t any larger. Am I right?

The actual subject isn’t larger, but it is filling the frame more, because the frame is smaller. Effectively that is like using a 450mm on a 35mm camera.

That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an
image
taking with the 300mm.No benefit really.

Stephan
Hi Stephan,

I think you’re missing something here. I don’t know about you, but I’d much rather have a 3008 x 2000 pix image than any cropped version there of. You loose pixels if you crop and resampling isn’t the answer IMHO.

By the way, you aren’t saying that a 1200mm Large format telephoto won’t make a rather large image on a 35mm film frame are you?

If image fills more of the available frame on a DSLR than on a 35mm film camera, even if there is no greater magnification you do gain *effective* image size without loosing pixels.

Works for me anyway. I always used to complain about image size loose going from 35mm to 8 x 10. Image was exactly the same physical size, but filled much less of the frame. Effective image size lose to me.

Hope I’ve helped.
D
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Al Denelsbeck
Mar 3, 2004
"Flycaster" wrote in
news:4043c326$:

Umm, no. If you software crop, by definition you loose pixels. For example, if they were to shoot the same image using a 185mm lens (effective 300mm) and then crop, the resulting image would be the same *size* as the one taken with the 300mm lens (effective 480mm), but the resolution (ppi) would be less.

Depends on what you start with. If you’re comparing a 6 MP image from a digital camera with a 4000 ppi scan from a 35mm frame, guess again…

– Al.


To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain
F
Flycaster
Mar 3, 2004
"Al Denelsbeck" wrote in message
"Flycaster" wrote in
news:4043c326$:

Umm, no. If you software crop, by definition you loose pixels. For example, if they were to shoot the same image using a 185mm lens (effective 300mm) and then crop, the resulting image would be the same *size* as the one taken with the 300mm lens (effective 480mm), but the resolution (ppi) would be less.

Depends on what you start with. If you’re comparing a 6 MP image from a digital camera with a 4000 ppi scan from a 35mm frame, guess again…

Huh? Funny, but I didn’t see a single word about 35mm, or scans, or anything other than questions about the relative effects of the lens multiplier versus cropping for a single digital camera, specifically the EOS 10D. Either you didn’t read the previous posts, or else…hell, I don’t have a clue.

And, as for comment by itself: don’t ya think that’s sort of obvious? 😉

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PJ
Paul J Gans
Mar 3, 2004
Stephan wrote:

"Johan W. Elzenga" wrote in message
Stephan wrote:

From: "Douglas MacDonald"
Subject: Re: need a key for 7.0
Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:45 PM

Gotta tell you Eric…
10D EOS, 800 maybe 1600 ISO, 120~300 f2.8 Sigma lens. Effective reach = 450mm.
snip<

Why 450mm?
The multiplication factor is not a magnification factor or is it? The angle is narrower but the actual subject isn’t any larger. Am I right?

The actual subject isn’t larger, but it is filling the frame more, because the frame is smaller. Effectively that is like using a 450mm on a 35mm camera.

That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an image taking with the 300mm.No benefit really.

I don’t understand. Cropping an image means I’m dropping pixels. That’s certainly a change. I can easily see a benefit in not dropping pixels.

—– Paul J. Gans
H
Hecate
Mar 3, 2004
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:43:41 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an image taking with the 300mm.No benefit really.
Actually, there is. look at the cost of a 400mm f5.6. Then compare it with the cost of a 600mm f5.6



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
S
Stephan
Mar 3, 2004
"Flycaster" wrote in message
"Stephan" wrote in message
"Johan W. Elzenga" wrote in message
Stephan wrote:

From: "Douglas MacDonald"
Subject: Re: need a key for 7.0
Date: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:45 PM

Gotta tell you Eric…
10D EOS, 800 maybe 1600 ISO, 120~300 f2.8 Sigma lens. Effective
reach
=
450mm.
snip<

Why 450mm?
The multiplication factor is not a magnification factor or is it? The angle is narrower but the actual subject isn’t any larger. Am I right?

The actual subject isn’t larger, but it is filling the frame more, because the frame is smaller. Effectively that is like using a 450mm
on
a 35mm camera.

That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an
image
taking with the 300mm.No benefit really.

Umm, no. If you software crop, by definition you loose pixels. For
example,
if they were to shoot the same image using a 185mm lens (effective 300mm) and then crop, the resulting image would be the same *size* as the one
taken
with the 300mm lens (effective 480mm), but the resolution (ppi) would be less.

When you shoot using the 300mm on your digital camera the birdie is not going to be bigger than if you had used the lens on a film camera. The field of vision on the digital is going to be the same than a 450mm on film but the magnification is going to be the same.

Stephan
DD
Duncan Donald
Mar 3, 2004
This is a can of worms for the birdies, isn’t it?
Look here and tell me if a same size image will occupy more or less of frame:

Frame A.
______________
| |
| |
| |
|_____________|

Frame B
___________
| |
| |
|__________ |

Quite clearly without concerning about Image magnification, Field of view or anything except a fixed size bird …one will be virtually larger than the other (a virtual magnification factor of 1.6). Naturally it will occupy more of frame B than it does in frame A. Whatever size lens you use, when you magnify the optics the image gets bigger. Virtual or actual, the picture appears larger in frame B than frame A.

Suppose a 100mm lens takes a picture that fill frame B but only partly fills frame A.
You have 160mm of virtual reach with the smaller sensor of a 10D. Please note I never said actual reach, I said virtual reach.

Be aware that the focal length of camera lenses is open to interpretation, depending on the size of the film frame. It’s a pretty poor measurement, really. A 80mm lens on a 6cm x 6cm frame will be equivalent to about a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera. Likewise a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera will be roughly equivalent to a 35mm lens on a 10D so… 300mm lens gives me 450+ mm reach on my 10D add a 2x multiplier and I have 900+mm of reach. The same lens on a 35mm camera only has 300mm and 600mm reach to fill the frame.

The effect would be no different to cropping the image in Photoshop were it not for the loss of image density. If you only wanted a 6"x4" photo, you could (in theory) crop a small section of the image and just print that. You would lose detail but hey, anyone who did probably wouldn’t want detail anyway!

Douglas
————-
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Al Denelsbeck
Mar 3, 2004
"Flycaster" wrote in
news:404538c1$:

"Al Denelsbeck" wrote in message
"Flycaster" wrote in
news:4043c326$:

Umm, no. If you software crop, by definition you loose pixels. For example, if they were to shoot the same image using a 185mm lens (effective 300mm) and then crop, the resulting image would be the same *size* as the one taken with the 300mm lens (effective 480mm), but the resolution (ppi) would be less.

Depends on what you start with. If you’re comparing a 6 MP image from
a digital camera with a 4000 ppi scan from a 35mm frame, guess again…

Huh? Funny, but I didn’t see a single word about 35mm, or scans, or anything other than questions about the relative effects of the lens multiplier versus cropping for a single digital camera, specifically the EOS 10D. Either you didn’t read the previous posts, or else…hell, I don’t have a clue.

And, as for comment by itself: don’t ya think that’s sort of obvious? 😉

When you’re talking about the "crop factor" or "magnification factor" of digital, it is strictly in reference to digital SLR-style cameras using the same lenses as film SLRs. With a fixed image size (for instance, standard 35mm film), all focal lengths produce the same angle-of-view and/or magnification. So a 500mm lens can be said to be a 10x magnification, if you’re thinking in terms like binoculars and telescopes, and 50mm is regarded as "normal", or what the eye sees. This is a standard that all photographers become familiar with. Need to get a room or a wide scenic shot? Go for 28mm or 24mm focal lengths (and so on).

But when the same lenses get used on digital SLRs, the sensors are smaller than a 35mm film frame (with a couple of expensive exceptions). This is the "crop factor" that comes into play, which digital promoters were quick to turn into a "magnification factor". If you take a 35mm film frame enlarged to 8×10, and a full frame of most digital SLRs enlarged to 8×10, the DSLR will appear "more magnified!". Because it is – it has a narrower field-of-view, and needs to be enlarged even more than 35mm to make an 8×10. If you were to take both and enlarge them by 500%, however, you would end up with a smaller image from digital. And you can take 35mm film, crop to the same angle of view as a digital sensor, and enlarge to an 8×10. Tadaaahh! No more "magnification factor".

So anytime there’s a reference to a "1.3" or "1.6 magnification" over 35mm, it’s only in reference to using the same lenses with both, so film (and cropping) automatically enter into the ‘picture’, heh!

All bets are off when you refer to digital cameras with built-in lenses, and you will never see a "magnification factor" touted for any of them. The sensors can be even smaller and the lenses placed much closer to the sensor, so you can have a 9.7mm focal length that produces the equivalent field-of-view/magnification of a 38mm lens on a film SLR. And when you see their specs listed, that’s how the refer to them: "35mm equivalent", because too many people know just what field-of-view certain focal lengths provide, from the longtime standard of 35mm film.

Unless, of course, you shoot medium-format 😉

– Al.


To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain
F
Flycaster
Mar 3, 2004
"Al Denelsbeck" wrote in message
[big snip]
Unless, of course, you shoot medium-format 😉

Again, your entire post is irrelevant to the poster’s statement, as I understood it. To wit:

"That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an image taking with the 300mm.No benefit really."

No one, other than you, has mentioned making a 35mm comparison to the smaller sensor size found in the EOS10D; that is another discussion completely. The implication of the above-mentioned quote is that you can crop to achieve the same effect – which is not true, since you will have an image that is the same size, but with less pixels. To say that there is "no benefit really" is simply false, since there is an approximate resolution loss of 40% (or a resolution gain of approx 60%, depending on equation direction). Simple enough, no?

And, since we now off on an unrelated tangent, I’ll give you some food for thought. I have taken identical images with a fixed focal length "L" lens, one taken with my EOS1 35mm (Provia, scanned at 4000dpi using a SS4000, then PS cropped to yield the same image size) up against the uncropped output from a D60, and made 11 x 17’s from them off a profiled Epson 2200. I did this to "prove" to a fellow club member that the cropped 35mm will yield better results.

Well, guess what…I was wrong. Not only did the digital image yield a cleaner print with more detail, but it showed significantly less artifacting when adjusted in PS – and this doesn’t even address the PITA issues of scanning and subsequent PS clean-up of the image *before* you make any adjustments whatsoever. (BTW, you don’t need to make a print to see this, it is clearly visible on a well calibrated monitor.)

Now, please, don’t throw MF and LF into this…I own both and already know what they can do. 😉

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S
Stephan
Mar 3, 2004
"Douglas MacDonald" wrote in message
This is a can of worms for the birdies, isn’t it?
Look here and tell me if a same size image will occupy more or less of frame:

Frame A.
______________
| |
| |
| |
|_____________|

Frame B
___________
| |
| |
|__________ |

snip<

Douglas, look at these squares :
http://tinyurl.com/32h84

Stephan
AD
Al Denelsbeck
Mar 3, 2004
"Flycaster" wrote in
news:404614d6$:

"Al Denelsbeck" wrote in message
[big snip]
Unless, of course, you shoot medium-format 😉

Again, your entire post is irrelevant to the poster’s statement, as I understood it. To wit:

"That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an image taking with the 300mm.No benefit really."

Yes, Zippy. Now try to answer the following questions: WHAT image taken with the 300mm? WHERE did such an image come from? WHY is there considered any kind of "crop factor" to begin with?

When you’ve actually expended any brainpower whatsoever in answering those questions, you’ll begin to understand the issue. I’m not holding my breath, though.

If you’re familiar with all the different formats, then you know 300mm, or 85mm, or 50mm, are only focal lengths, and in and of themselves mean nothing. It’s the field-of-view that’s yielded by the media that makes them have any meaning at all. And yes, that is EXACTLY the issue, because you don’t turn a 300mm lens into a 450mm lens by slapping it on a different camera, do you? Or do you believe digital cameras have little pixies in them that rush into the lenses and add glass elements to increase the focal length?

You claim to have done this, but at present are showing absolutely no unnderstanding of what it was you were supposedly doing. So I guess we get to hear you repeat yourself yet again in defiance of actually comprehending the posts?

– Al.


To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain
DD
Duncan Donald
Mar 3, 2004
"Stephan" wrote in message
"Douglas MacDonald" wrote in message
This is a can of worms for the birdies, isn’t it?
Look here and tell me if a same size image will occupy more or less of frame:

Frame A.
______________
| |
| |
| |
|_____________|

Frame B
___________
| |
| |
|__________ |

snip<

Douglas, look at these squares :
http://tinyurl.com/32h84

Stephan

———————-
Try drawing them with a keyboard!
Douglas
S
Stephan
Mar 4, 2004
"Hecate" wrote in message
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:43:41 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

That’s what I mean.
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an
image
taking with the 300mm.No benefit really.
Actually, there is. look at the cost of a 400mm f5.6. Then compare it with the cost of a 600mm f5.6
Please read:
http://tinyurl.com/32h84
Call me a snob but f:5.6 is simply unusable, specially under your grey skies 😉
DD
Duncan Donald
Mar 4, 2004
Arghhh Stephen.
Have you never used high speed film?
ISO is your friend. Particularly ISO 1600.
How do you think all those sports photographers get their shots? OK Some have 1000mm 2.8 lenses but really, many don’t.

Douglas
——————
"Stephan" wrote in message
Please read:
http://tinyurl.com/32h84
Call me a snob but f:5.6 is simply unusable, specially under your grey
skies
😉

S
Stephan
Mar 4, 2004
"Douglas MacDonald" wrote in message
Arghhh Stephen.
Have you never used high speed film?
ISO is your friend. Particularly ISO 1600.
How do you think all those sports photographers get their shots? OK Some have 1000mm 2.8 lenses but really, many don’t.

Arghhh Douglas,
Ever wondered why the lenses around sports fields are so huge? Ever tried to see anything through a 5.6 lens on a gray day? Of course you can use fast film but that doesn’t help when you can see s**t through your glass!

Stephan
H
Hecate
Mar 5, 2004
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:16:57 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

Call me a snob but f:5.6 is simply unusable, specially under your grey skies 😉
Snob! ;-0

Actually, it depends what you need. And whether the lens in question is an IS lens or not. I’d agree that it’s a waste of time for sports. However, people only *think* it’s a waste of time for nature photography. Those are the people who think that you need a super fast lens to capture , e.g. birds. You don’t as with all animals what you require is field knowledge and patience, not a super fast lens 🙂



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
M
Mac
Mar 5, 2004
Frame A.
______________
| |
| |
| |
|_____________|

Frame B
___________
| |
| |
|__________ |

Following on from the large can of worms,

The only difference from frame A to Frame B is the field of view, Frame A has a larger Field of view, Frame B HAS NOT HAD ANY MAGNIFICATION factor applied to it whatsoever,

Try placing the two frames over a picture, does the picture look bigger in frame B, NO!
why not, because its not been magnified, It is an effect of having a smaller CCD than a 35mm frame,
K
krey1
Mar 5, 2004
Al Denelsbeck …
[big snip]

What is it with you? Low blood alcohol, or just lack of sleep? Wow.

Take a really deep breath, and go back and take a look at my original post. You will see that we are actually talking about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, AL, which is what I have been trying, without success, to get across to YOU. Perhaps I should have just come out and said that, but I thought it was fairly obvious, thus my comments about irrelevancy. That was my mistake.

I have *acknowledged* that what you say is true: of course it is, and I’ve known that for a very long time; I’ve been taking photographs for over 45 years. But that was NOT the point I was trying to make, and for some reason you are so keen on trying to "educate" me in the nuances of focal length, field of view, and image size, you are utterly blind to this. That is your mistake.

Regardless, keep the teenage insults and other prattle in your pocket and let it go. I could have jumped right back in your face with other meaningless slams, but I choose not to. Life is too short, but if you don’t want the olive branch, well, there’s always the killfile, eh? Your choice.
DD
Duncan Donald
Mar 6, 2004
Hey Mac…
If I said ‘Virtual’ and ‘virtually’, what would you think? It’s OK, I know… It refers to the taste buds of a Platypus during mating season!
Douglas

"Mac" wrote in message

Following on from the large can of worms,

The only difference from frame A to Frame B is the field of view, Frame A has a larger Field of view, Frame B HAS NOT HAD ANY MAGNIFICATION factor applied to it whatsoever,

Try placing the two frames over a picture, does the picture look bigger in frame B, NO!
why not, because its not been magnified, It is an effect of having a
smaller
CCD than a 35mm frame,

AD
Al Denelsbeck
Mar 6, 2004
(Flycaster) wrote in
news::

Al Denelsbeck wrote in message
news:… [big snip]

What is it with you? Low blood alcohol, or just lack of sleep? Wow.
Take a really deep breath, and go back and take a look at my original post. You will see that we are actually talking about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, AL, which is what I have been trying, without success, to get across to YOU. Perhaps I should have just come out and said that, but I thought it was fairly obvious, thus my comments about irrelevancy. That was my mistake.

I have *acknowledged* that what you say is true: of course it is, and I’ve known that for a very long time; I’ve been taking photographs for over 45 years. But that was NOT the point I was trying to make, and for some reason you are so keen on trying to "educate" me in the nuances of focal length, field of view, and image size, you are utterly blind to this. That is your mistake.

Regardless, keep the teenage insults and other prattle in your pocket and let it go. I could have jumped right back in your face with other meaningless slams, but I choose not to. Life is too short, but if you don’t want the olive branch, well, there’s always the killfile, eh? Your choice.

Yes, I’ve read your original post. I have also read the posts leading up to it, where the issue is abundantly clear. Nobody in there mentions pixel resolution, and it is not a part of the thread at all.

So why you’re off on your tangent has yet to be determined. Yes, indeed, I will agree with you: We’re talking about two different things. I’m talking about the subject that the rest of the thread is dealing with.

What you’re talking about is something about how images with no pixels in them have a fixed set of pixel dimensions. Nobody else was talking pixels – they were talking lenses. This is why I asked you the questions you have managed to ignore, yet again.

So perhaps, if you wish to be off on some idea of your own, you should start another thread?

– Al.


To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain
MR
Mike Russell
Mar 7, 2004
Flycaster said:
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an image taking with the 300mm. No benefit really.

Al Denelsbeck responded:
WHAT image taken with the 300mm? WHERE did such an image come from? WHY is
there
considered any kind of "crop factor" to begin with?

I agree with your basic point, but not for the reasons you give below.

Al Denelsbeck continued:
If you’re familiar with all the different formats, then you know 300mm, or 85mm, or 50mm, are only focal lengths, and in and of themselves mean nothing. It’s the field-of-view that’s yielded by the media that makes them have any meaning at all.

A lens designed for 35mm has a specific covering power that is "wasted" when used with a smaller detector. When using a 35mm lens with a smaller detector, you’re carrying around extra glass that does not contribute to the image, and getting a lower quality image than you would have gotten with a lens designed to capture to your detector size.

I do agree with your statement: "WHAT image taken with the 300mm?". Digital capture is mainstream, and the most salient fact about a digital image is often that it exists, and the film one does not.

The market for larger detectors is a temporary one, aimed at those who want to use their legacy glass. New lens designs will use, higher resolution detectors.


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net
S
Stephan
Mar 7, 2004
"Mike Russell" wrote in message
Flycaster said:
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an image taking with the 300mm. No benefit really.

Al Denelsbeck responded:
WHAT image taken with the 300mm? WHERE did such an image come from? WHY
is
there
considered any kind of "crop factor" to begin with?

I agree with your basic point, but not for the reasons you give below.
Al Denelsbeck continued:
If you’re familiar with all the different formats, then you know 300mm, or 85mm, or 50mm, are only focal lengths, and in and of themselves mean nothing. It’s the field-of-view that’s yielded by the media that makes them have any meaning at all.

A lens designed for 35mm has a specific covering power that is "wasted"
when
used with a smaller detector. When using a 35mm lens with a smaller detector, you’re carrying around extra glass that does not contribute to
the
image, and getting a lower quality image than you would have gotten with a lens designed to capture to your detector size.

I do agree with your statement: "WHAT image taken with the 300mm?".
Digital
capture is mainstream, and the most salient fact about a digital image is often that it exists, and the film one does not.

The market for larger detectors is a temporary one, aimed at those who
want
to use their legacy glass. New lens designs will use, higher resolution detectors.
Detector?
Never heard that term before in digital photography.
I hope you are wrong in your prediction about sensor size, I am still waiting for a full size Nikon sensor.

Stephan
MR
Mike Russell
Mar 7, 2004
Stephan wrote:
"Mike Russell" wrote in message
….
The market for larger detectors is a temporary one, aimed at those who want to use their legacy glass. New lens designs will use, higher resolution detectors.

Detector?
Never heard that term before in digital photography.
I hope you are wrong in your prediction about sensor size, I am still waiting for a full size Nikon sensor.

Sensor is probably a better term. "Detector" is a term from medical and physics imaging applications.

Things are moving quickly, and if enough people keep wanting to use their old lenses, I think you’ll see a full sized sensor in the near future. But aside from that there will be some interesting things in optical design that you and I will see in the not too distant future.

(BTW, Stephan – speaking of telephotos have you done any lava shots recently?)

Here’s an old article about where I think lenses and sensors are headed. I wrote it a long year and a half ago when a 6 mp consumer digital camera was just a dream :-):

—begin article—
I think there is only one reason
to make the sensor larger, and that’s legacy glass. Photographers who have sunk money into their lenses, want a camera that will get some mileage on that investment if the sensor size is reasonably close to that of 35mm. If you have 10 K$or so invested in lenses, a K$ or three for a camera looks reasonable. But this market is fairly small to start with, compared to the consumer market, and will not last forever. The most expensive lenses are telephotos, and they get a bit of a boost with a slightly smaller sensor, so a larger sensor would benefit wide angle use only.

Working against larger detectors and interchangeable lenses is the fact that having a smaller detector means a smaller lens, and that means less weight.

Finally, and I think most interesting of all, are the advantages of an integrated lens and detector assembly. Short term, this means less risk of dust, and smaller size relative to a removable lens design. Longer term, the detector will become part of the optics of the camera when it becomes commercially feasible to fabricate spherical detector surfaces. Having a sp herical "film" surface will greatly simplify lens optics, and make it possible to design wider angle lenses where a planar, rectilinear image is no longer required.

Imagine a hybrid detector supporting a more useful form of digital zoom, with higher density of pixels at the center, for a telephoto effect, and pixel density dropping off at the edges to support wide angle shots.

Lenses will still be swappable, but the detector will be part of the optics. The camera may then serve as a storage, control, and power source. Sports photographers can take medium and long shots simultaneously, [using a variable resolution sensor, or] by capturing from multiple lenses at a time.

Other lenses will sense IR and UV in addition to visible light, perhaps using non-visible information for image enhancement and sharpening. Imagine an NVG-style light amplifier built into the sensor surface of your camera – add a Bayer filter pattern to the mix and you have color amplified light.

Another important feature would be detection of "Z", or distance information. This would allow not only stereo viewing and 3D model extraction, but things like post processing software digitally simulate depth of field available with the older, larger lenses, as well as quick masking out of background information. Imagine clicking on one person in a group photo and dragging them a couple of feet over – this is possible when you have 3D information and an editor that knows how to use it. Or take several views of the same person and generate a complete 3D model. If want to see what some of this will look like, watch Minority Report.

You may be right that larger, higher rez sensors will be part of photography’s future, but I think this will be a side path only as we see optics start to reflect the new functionality and design possibilities that digital offers. I believe that optics will take a new direction entirely when [digital cameras stop] trying to emulate 35mm film.

—end article—


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net
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Al Denelsbeck
Mar 7, 2004
"Mike Russell" wrote in
news:iQw2c.6950$:

Flycaster said:
People getting all exited about turning their 300mm into a 450mm should understand that they can do the same thing in Photoshop by cropping an image taking with the 300mm. No benefit really.

Al Denelsbeck responded:
WHAT image taken with the 300mm? WHERE did such an image come from? WHY is
there
considered any kind of "crop factor" to begin with?

I agree with your basic point, but not for the reasons you give below.
Al Denelsbeck continued:
If you’re familiar with all the different formats, then you know 300mm, or 85mm, or 50mm, are only focal lengths, and in and of themselves mean nothing. It’s the field-of-view that’s yielded by the media that makes them have any meaning at all.

A lens designed for 35mm has a specific covering power that is "wasted" when used with a smaller detector. When using a 35mm lens with a smaller detector, you’re carrying around extra glass that does not contribute to the image, and getting a lower quality image than you would have gotten with a lens designed to capture to your detector size.

I do agree with your statement: "WHAT image taken with the 300mm?". Digital capture is mainstream, and the most salient fact about a digital image is often that it exists, and the film one does not.
The market for larger detectors is a temporary one, aimed at those who want to use their legacy glass. New lens designs will use, higher resolution detectors.

No argument with what you’ve posted (in the follow-up posts as well), but there’s a couple other factors in the mix that bear on it all. I’m perhaps more aware of these because they affect me more 😉

1) There’s *always* some "wasted" coverage, even with lenses designed for and used with 35mm film only. While technically the image circle only has to cover the diagonal of the frame, the longest measurement, they typically overlap about 15%. This is done to reduce aberrations, light falloff at the corners, and color fringing, all due to the spherical nature of the lens elements.

2) Smaller detectors/sensors than the lenses have been designed for are then using more of the ‘sweet spot’ of the lens, the area in the center that shows the sharpest results and the lowest percentage of spherical affects. So designing smaller/shorter lenses strictly for digital means these can be reintroduced. You also need to account for the SLR focal-plane distances – a certain space needs to be maintained inside to allow for the mirror movement (though this can also be reduced with smaller sensor sizes), and the lenses have to be optimized for those distances. And as someone who shoots more than a small amount of macro work where focus and depth-of-field is crucial, I do NOT want a non-SLR where my focus is dependent on some damn LCD 😉

3) The concern is not necessarily, or always, a photographer wanting to use ‘legacy glass’, though for someone who’s invested a few grand in their lenses it’s an important factor – the same one that slows down switching systems from Canon to Nikon for instance. But many photographers plan to continue using both film and digital, sometimes interchangeably on the same assignments, so glass that can work on both with the same affects is a lot more convenient. And lightens the bags considerably 😉

4) The ‘magnification’ or ‘crop’ factor can be handy, when you need the extra reach. Unfortunately it leaves wide-angles high and dry, and this is a major part of many shooting styles and situations. Anyone using focal lengths between 15 and 24mm regularly are a bit slow to embrace smaller sensors, and manufacturers haven’t exactly been noticing this. Even the non-SLR cameras that can take advantage of smaller lenses and shorter focal-plane distances seem to completely ignore such angles-of-view.

So I think using lenses designed for smaller sensors is great, for a non-SLR. They can get very small and light. But I’m waiting for the full- frame sensors to come way way down in price myself, because that would be the most useful as far as I’m concerned.

Now, I wonder if anybody has realized that a digital detector/sensor with a flexible surface, able to warp into various radii of spherical shape, can drop the lens costs tremendously by eliminating most of the difficult problems with spherical lenses. Corner sharpnes, light falloff, and color fringing can be reduced or eliminated by optimizing the capture surface to the light path. The number of fluorite and aspherical elements can be reduced considerably, making lens design and production many times easier (and cheaper?)

– Al.


To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain
DD
Duncan Donald
Mar 7, 2004
I think you missed the mark a little Mike. Sensor size is quite a different situation than just being able to cram more pixels into a given area. The spectacular – that is the only description for them – images from the Mars rover were something like 1 megapixel in size but the sensor used to collect the image was quite large.

I was mildly surprised to see a Canon 1D (4 megapixel) image blow up well past the size my 10D (6 megapixel) images began to show they were digital without signs of degradation. The sensor size of the 1D is 60% larger than the 10D yet it can produce prints twice the size at greater quality.

Right now there is a market race to see who can cram the most pixels into a small sensor. This in itself is not going to persuade the professional community to adopt small sensors nor will it result in higher quality photography. The makers of true Professional, Digital backs for MF cameras certainly have nothing to worry about in the quality stakes from small sensor cameras.

Douglas

"Mike Russell" wrote in message
Here’s an old article about where I think lenses and sensors are headed.
I
wrote it a long year and a half ago when a 6 mp consumer digital camera
was
just a dream :-):

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