Photoshop Has a Serious Flaw in it’s Color Calculations

JS
Posted By
john_schutkeker
Nov 8, 2003
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1909
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37
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Closed
While fiddling with the commands under Mode>Adjustments menu, I learned that the color circle used by Photoshop is purely and simply wrong. This stupid programmers thought that yellow and blue are complementary colors, where even high school art students knows that orange and blue are complements, like red and green.

I have seen a wide variety of different color circles in the published literature, and I believe most of them are incorrect. Here I am offering a solution to this problem.

The real problem is mapping the visual spectrum of light onto the color circle, and the solution is to notice that there is no color beyond blue. Indigo does not exist; it is a myth. The spectrum contains only five colors (ROYGB), and indigo is simply a very black shade of blue.

This observation makes the mapping problem trivial, since there are six colors on the color circle, the sixth of which is an even mixture of the two ends of the spectrum – red and blue. That color is magenta, although I prefer to call it purple. As an aside, you can see that purple doesn’t exist in nature, but is a fiction created by human neurology to allow our brains to map the visible spectrum into a circle.

Because it’s the the color of the sun, which is what our eyes are our eyes key on, yellow is at both the center of the spectrum and at the top of the color wheel. Every 60 degrees around the circle, you get a new color, green at 60, blue at 120, orange at -60 and red at -120. That puts purple directly at the bottom of the circle (180 degrees), making it the complement of yellow. The line between Yellow and Magenta is the "axis" of the circle.

It also explains why Photoshop compresses the Orange range so annoyingly, as well as making it numerically hard to find, since pure orange doesn’t have round number indices under either the RGB, CMY or LAB systems. And it gives some engineering insight into the RGB and CMY representations. CMY is the system used for printing, which means that it was invented long before color monitors and their RGB system. CMY is accepted as the de facto standard for Photoshop settings, while RGB is only a second class standard.

Magenta and Yellow are at the 0 and 180 degree points, while Cyan, which is perfectly halfway between Blue and Green, is exactly 90 degrees from the Magenta/Yellow boundary. This dovetails perfectly with the NTSC system of compressing three color channels into two signals, by subtracting them from each other to define only "luminance" and "chrominance" signals.

My model says that the NTSC Luminance channel is the same as the Magenta/Yellow channel, and acts as a "gross adjustment" knob. The Cyan channel is exactly perpendicular to the Magenta/Yellow channel, making it the "fine tuning" adjustment.

RGB is a rough approximation to this fine/coarse system of adjustment. Again, Red/Green are direct opposites on the color wheel, but now Blue is slightly different from perpendicular, with a 60 degree offset, rather than 90 degrees. The inaccuracies built into RGB are a historical accident, based on engineers’ ability to find good material for phosphors in the 1950’s, when color TV was invented.

And it’s another reason why the Orange range is so compressed, when it shouldn’t be. Blue and Green are bad choices for orthogonal colors, because they’re right next to each other on the color circle. The Orange range is compressed is because it’s opposite the B/G region, while the B/G range is equivalently expanded, wasting part of the color space.

Using ROYGB for the spectrum and ROYGBM for the color wheel simplifies the mathematics of complex color calculations enormously. Among the many stupidities it eliminates is the mistake of using obviously wrong color circles with yellow and blue as complementary colors. That’s clearly trying to jam a square peg into a round hole, and anybody should be able to see that it’s a serious weakness in Photoshop.

Does anybody have any i

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JS
John_Slate
Nov 8, 2003
where even high school art students knows that orange and blue are complements, like red and green

Yeah and the primary colors are Red Yellow and Blue…

Not
P
Phosphor
Nov 8, 2003
You’re in cahoots with Robby Todino on this, aren’t you Mr. Schutkeker?
PC
Pierre_Courtejoie
Nov 8, 2003
I like how Mr Schutkeker comes to a company-endorsed website to say that its programmers are stupid…

When Adobe will have sacked all its engineers, to replace them with mr Schutkeker, be prepared to rename CYMK to COPK.. Cyan, Orange, Purple and black, as he prefers to call "Magenta" Purple…

I’m wondering if that person is really serious… I think that this belongs to the lounge…
L
LenHewitt
Nov 8, 2003
Is it April 1st?
JS
Jeff_Schewe
Nov 8, 2003
Uh. . .maybe John doesn’t understand color science. . .

The additive primaries are Red, Green & Blue, the subtractive primaries are Cyan, Magenta and Yellow, not sure where he thinks Orange is a primary. . .maybe in an alternative universe?

So, the color additive and subractive complimentary pairs are: Red/Cyan, Green/Magenta, and Blue/Yellow.

Now if John is "stooopid" about color, I can see where he’s all bent out of shape. . .
GH
Gernot_Hoffmann
Nov 8, 2003
Not yet, Len.

PhS color models are correct, but this question should be discussed:

Why are in real life red and green complementary but in computer color models red and cyan ?

Why had artists (many, including Goethe) defined different color wheels ?

Because it´s late I can´t give a concise answer, but one should think about.

Computer color models are strictly based on CIE standards, but the mathematics are probably not welcome here.

The YCbCr conversion (perhaps the same as the NTSC conversion, didn´t check it actually) is merely a mathematical decomposition. Because the colors are recovered at the receiver by the inverse algorithm, one could use any con- version. This algo is optimized for lowest bandwidth, three channels together.

There is, by the way no finite number of colors in the spectrum. ROYBIV contains Indigo because of Newton´s attempt to match his interpretation of colors with harmonies in music (and because ROYBV would cause tongue- twisting).

Yes, let´s move the thread to the lounge.

Best regards –Gernot Hoffmann
GH
Gernot_Hoffmann
Nov 8, 2003
Correction: ROYGBIV and ROYGBV. In German it´s ROGGBIV.
G.H.
P
Phosphor
Nov 8, 2003
Roy G. Biv and I have been friends since grade 6 Science class.
Y
YrbkMgr
Nov 8, 2003
This stupid programmers thought that yellow and blue are complementary colors,

Demonstrates that he knows what programmers do.

Among the many stupidities it eliminates is the mistake of using obviously wrong color circles with yellow and blue as complementary colors

I would think that there is a less offensive way to make a point.

Even Einstein made incorrect calculations and assumptions, but you’d be off base to argue him as stupid because of it.
CC
Chris_Cox
Nov 9, 2003
There’s too many errors in his rant to even start on….

I’m guessing he’s a troll.
DM
dave_milbut
Nov 9, 2003
Maybe he works for Corel. 🙂
C
cgranier
Nov 9, 2003
As an aside, you can see that purple doesn’t exist in nature, but is
a fiction created by human neurology to allow our brains to map the visible spectrum into a circle. >

You obviously don’t look at flowers and birds much.
GH
Gernot_Hoffmann
Nov 9, 2003
Newton´s great achievement was to bend the spectrum together on a circle: Nowadays red (700nm) at 0°, violet (380nm) at 240° . These are spectral colors. The rest of the circle is filled by magenta which isn´t available as a spectral color but only as a metamer, consisting (at least) of a red and a blue spectral component.

The style of this thread is not pleasant, neither is the OP´s letter itself. But some observations are worth a discussion.

Most of the readers might think that the primaries are red,green,blue, without discus- sing the question "which red,green,blue" .
We can easily see that many different versions are used (monitor primaries, working space primaries).

Now we can use ANY set of three (considerably different) colors inside the CIE chromaticity diagram (horseshoe), somewhat arranged around white. This set is a valid tristimulus system, if we add a white point. The triangle which connects the corners is totally inside the human gamut (or on the contour, like the CIE primaries themselves).

This would mean that a colorimetrically correct tristimulus system can be based on primaries which are far from those which we use mostly.
Of course, the gamut may overlap our common RGB gamuts rather little, therefore it´s not useful in computer applications.

I´m trying to shed some light on the historical phenomenon that people like Goethe, Wundt, Runge, Lambert, Aemilius Müller, Johanson, Pope, Nyberg, Gerritsen, Hicke- thier, Küppers etc. didn´t believe in RGB primaries.

Best regards –Gernot Hoffmann
DM
Don_McCahill
Nov 9, 2003
Re: I´m trying to shed some light on the historical phenomenon that people like Goethe, Wundt, Runge, Lambert, Aemilius Müller, Johanson, Pope, Nyberg, Gerritsen, Hickethier, Küppers etc. didn´t believe in RGB primaries.

Of course, they didn’t work on computer monitors, which do use RGB primaries exclusively. I’ll be a lot of those guys didn’t believe that a 40 ton box of metal (a 777 airplane) could fly through the air, either.
GH
Gernot_Hoffmann
Nov 9, 2003
Don,

Küppers knew already the B747 (approximately 400 tons) .

Best regards –Gernot Hoffmann
PC
Pierre_Courtejoie
Nov 9, 2003
Why are in real life red and green complementary but in computer color models red and cyan ?

Because the pigments used by tempera paintings are not pure?
JS
John_Slate
Nov 9, 2003
Back in grade school and into high school I was taught that the primaries were Red, Yellow and Blue and the secondaries were formed but subtractive mixture of the primaries: Orange, Green and Purple.

These colors will fit very nicely on a circle, and the complementary colors are those that are opposite each other on this wheel.

I’m not sure why we were taught that, or if it is still taught today. When I got to college, in the pre-computer days, color theory was re-taught to me with the additive (RGB) and subtractive (CMY) primaries arranged on the color wheel, and the complementary colors to suit.

The distinguishing characteristic of complements would be that their mixture in a subtractive system would theoretically produce black.

Red and Green pigments, when mixed, certainly would not produce black no matter how pure they are. Red pigment would absorb equal parts of Green and Blue light, and Green pigment would absorb equal parts of Red and Blue light. The aggregate absorbtion being 1 part Red, 1 part Green, and 2 parts Blue: a decidedly brownish color.

Red and Cyan on the other hand are perfect complements. Red absorbs Green and Blue, and Cyan absorbs Red.
GH
Gernot_Hoffmann
Nov 9, 2003
Many people have reported that they perceive green and red as complementary.

It´s perhaps not bad to distinguish:

a) perceptual complementary, in the sense of "opponents, tension, contrast, sensation".
b) complementary in the sense of "adds to gray if mixed correctly".

The perceptual sensation depends not only on the hues but also on the lightnesses and saturations.

A test by measuring CIELab values of Pantone Spot Swatches (coated, vibrant colors) delivered this result:

Red P485 C2X—– Lab = 54 /+60 /+67 —– hue=48°
Green P368 C2X— Lab = 62/-57 / +51 —– hue=138° — 90° relative to red Cyan P306 C2X—- Lab = 57/-37 / -46 —— hue=231° — 183° relative to red

The Green looks like a complementary color though it´s only 90° different to Red. The Cyan doesn´t look "better complementary" though it´s 183° different to Red.

Measurements by the instrument Pantone ColorCue.

There is no natural law how to place visual primaries (pigments, inks) on the circle. The sequence RGB by names doesn´t imply that they differ by 120° relative to each other. CMY inks are IMO not equally spaced by hue.
The only thing I want to prove is that other color models besides the computer model can be very reasonable, e.g. for fine art and graphics design by pigment color, colored paper etc..

Shouldn´t be taken too seriously – I don´t have a theory.

Best regards –Gernot Hoffmann
CC
Chris_Cox
Nov 10, 2003
I think he is confusing purple and magenta.

In England and some of Europe, they tend to call magenta "purple".

In the US, we consider purple to be closer to violet.
This is helped in part by Crayola 😉

For these reasons, I tend to avoid using the term purple and use the more precise violet and magenta.
PC
Philo_Calhoun
Nov 10, 2003
Add to the additive and subtractive models for colour that the neurons getting RGB information from cones translates colour into Red-Green and Blue-Yellow opposites before sending the messages to the cortex. So defining a colour’s "opposite" is relative.
HS
Henry_Skinner
Nov 10, 2003
Color wheels and discriptions are only models or "languages" that we use to communicate with. The RGB and CMY languages are standardized and work in transferring information between two communication types – e.g., a monitor and a printing press. While each of us may procees in or own formulated language, if we want to use the tools available we need to operate in those languages.

These models are communication tools not reality.

Color is a vision thing based on three types of receptors in the eye. The se receptors have varying counts and varying response factors with upper and lower boundary conditions. The maximum response for blue is 445nm, G 535nm and R 575nm (
< http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/colcon.htm l#c1)>. Our brain puts these together from all combinations of input. To say there are ony 6 or 7 or 8 or… colors is like saying there are a countable number of points on a line.

To work with the tools use the language of the tools. To work in your mind use your language – but if you want to communicate learn a standard language.
TF
Thomas_Fors
Nov 10, 2003
Haha! How do I make the color picker display Crayola color names? 🙂

In the US, we consider purple to be closer to violet.
This is helped in part by Crayola 😉
P
Phosphor
Nov 11, 2003
" Haha! How do I make the color picker display Crayola color names?"

HaHa! Buy a Mac and you get this <http://home.comcast.net/~phoz/bbs/AppleColorPicker.jpg>.
SB
simon_bridge
Nov 11, 2003
like, i am so getting a mac for those crayons alone….i loooove it!
PC
Pierre_Courtejoie
Nov 11, 2003
Yes, that IS a valid marketing point, not "world fastest" "64bit desktop" etc…

Buy a mac, with the world famous crayola(*) color picker, tested by an independent benchmarketer

(*)it is used by more people than pantone, so it should be THE colour standard from now…
J
jason
May 6, 2004
Chris Cox wrote:

I think he is confusing purple and magenta. In England and some of Europe, they tend to call magenta "purple". In the US, we consider purple to be closer to violet. This is helped in part by Crayola

For these reasons, I tend to avoid using the term purple and use >the more precise violet and magenta.

I’m colour blind. Now I know why. It’s nothing to do with the fact that I can’t see them properly. I just don’t know what to call them.
🙂

J
MV
Mathias_Vejerslev
May 6, 2004
The word purple translates to ‘violet’ in my language (danish).

BTW, I like for once that the forum software cut OP´s post short 🙂
RL
roger_leale
May 6, 2004
For anybody that is interested, there is the best color wheel that I have ever seen in Deke McClelland’s book, PSCS One-on-One, page 69. It even shows some of the color names that painters are prone to use.
It’s an excellent book too! Just a reader, not a friend of Deke’s!
DN
DS_Nelson
May 6, 2004
Back in grade school and into high school I was taught that the primaries were Red, Yellow and Blue and the secondaries were formed but subtractive mixture of the primaries: Orange, Green and Purple.

Yep, I remember being taught exactly the same thing.

I also remember being taught in science class how an airplane wing develops lift. Now, years later, with an engineering degree and pilot’s license in hand, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that old explanation.
J
jason
May 6, 2004
I can remember the good old days when the Amazon was the longest river in the world….

J
CC
Chris_Cox
May 6, 2004
DS – just think of it as a simplification appropriate to the audience it was delivered to.
JR
John_R_Nielsen
May 7, 2004
I once saw a book that was a guide to mixing paint for artists. Its advice was to forget about the primaries that were taught in primary (sorry), school and CMYK, too. Because comercially available paints blend differently, since the pigments don’t match the receptors in the himan eye.

I once, as a joke, made a color wheel with the "Tertiary" colors included: Teal, Aqua, Orange, Purple, Chartruese, etc. Turned out to be quite useful 🙂
RW
Rene_Walling
May 7, 2004
I once saw a book that was a guide to mixing paint for artists

Was it called "blue and yellow don’t make green" by any chance?

I don’t have my copy here so I can’t give you the author’s name, but it’s an excellent book.
FN
Fred_Nirque
May 8, 2004
DS

I was taught that the primaries were Red, Yellow and Blue

That was true for art and paints.

Light is a different matter. RGB.

Fred.
J
jason
May 8, 2004
But don’t we only see the colour of the paint because of the frequency or amount of light absorbed/reflected by it? So light is still in the equation….
Although accepted, paint is a "negative" mix compared to light… or is it the other way around? I’m still half asleep.

J
DM
dave_milbut
May 8, 2004
paint is reflective, light is emitive.
JH
Jeff_Holmes
Jun 22, 2004
Back in grade school and into high school I was taught >>I’m not sure
why we were taught that, or if it is still taught

Red Yellow and Blue are true colors
Blue+Yellow = Green

The distinguishing characteristic of complements would be that >>>their
mixture in a subtractive system would theoretically produce >>>black.

Absence of all true color = Black
Presence of all true color = White

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